You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I was warned “you won’t be able to get good 26 MTB tyres anymore “
Heard it so many times, what they really mean is you won't get a block pattern between two already similar types or an obscure compound.
Coming from the days of tyres being a choice of 2 Michelin or 4 Maxxis and two compounds (unless you got an imported Maxxpro with a DH casing) I really couldn't GAF. As long as it gets me down the hill and holds on to the track doing it I'm happy.
Don't get me wrong, choice is good, but sometimes it can be too much and just over complicates things.
I sold two last year, both less than a year old.
Yeah, that's nowhere near enough time to get to grips with a bike.
new bearings into the 14 year old Hope hubs, seven years since the last time
What spec bearings do you use? Since I know you do some miles.
IIRC the last ones were Hope, but this time I'm trying Blueseal out of curiousity. I also changed the freehub bearings - for the first time! The 14 year old originals were running a bit rough so I popped in the Hope spares I bought the same time I bought the hub...
Key thing is, I think, I don't wash the bike. Ever. And certainly not with snake oil from the likes of Muc Off. Once a year, usually picking a week with sh!t weather in February, I take the bike right down to its component nuts and bolts, degrease and clean everything, bleed the brakes, replace what needs replacing and build it back up with lashings of marine grease. I'll keep an eye (ear) out over the next 12 months for developing issues, e.g. I had to repack the jockey bearings on my four year old XT mech at Christmas, but generally everything just ticks along until the next 12 months...
[img] 
[/img]
(That's the third set of jockeys after the previous two wore down to throwing stars).
That is insanity to me. What the hell is wrong with a bike at 2 years old?
The OP was talking about 'moving up', and there's a load of people on here generally saying they sell bikes while they have residual value so that's often at 2-3 years old. If people weren't doing that helitape wouldn't be a thing?
Most Some, perhaps. Anyway.
IIRC the last ones were Hope, but this time I’m trying Blueseal out of curiousity.
I'm on the Codex standard balls, fitted 2 sets and not had any issues yet. Time will tell.
Yeah, that’s nowhere near enough time to get to grips with a bike.
What do you mean get to grips with a bike?
With road bikes there definitely is a barrier to entry with fast groups. I was chatting to some graduate the other month about it. He mentioned that he felt really guilty being on a nice aero road bike and I was saying I'd just bought deeper section Zipp wheels to help keep up with the faster riders. He said he didn't agree with the barrier to entry ie unless you're much stronger than everyone else you'll be struggling to keep up if everyone else is on aero bikes with deep section wheels etc. I know a few others who have mentioned this ie the local chain gang consists of only pro level road bikes and anyone on an entry level model is at a distinct disadvantage.
What do you mean get to grips with a bike?
If you've read any of his threads you'd know. Some people obsess about setup (which is fine if you enjoy that type of thing), some people just ride 🙂
What do you mean get to grips with a bike?
Learning how it responds, how to set it up the way you want, how to get the best out of it and what it can offer you.
snake oil from the likes of Muc Off
It's detergent, not snake oil. Do you put snake-oil in your washing machine for your clothes? Do you put snake oil on your hands after a piss?
With road bikes there definitely is a barrier to entry with fast groups.
Same on track. I did a track session with some faster riders. On the group sprint exercises I was consistently some distance behind them. We also did some flying 200m sprints and . that speed difference equated to about 0.2s. If you were going to lose a sprint by a wheel, that would be a far smaller time deficit. I was on a stock basic track bike with square section rims, so it seems quite likely that an aero bike would have gained me enough speed to make a significant difference in my position on the track.
Some people obsess about setup
Yes although we prefer the term 'pay attention to detail' 🙂 But it's free (or at least cheap) whereas new bikes are not.
snake oil from the likes of Muc Off
Technically it's grinding paste from Muc Off. In Zero Friction Cycling tests, the worst three lubes he has ever tested (failing by a massive margin) are all Muc Off lubes! His standard test protocol has five testing blocks, Muc Off never completes all five as the chain is so worn after one or two blocks the test is abandoned. No other lube has failed to complete the test protocol. There is literally nothing worse you can put on your chain!
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/latest-zero-friction-cycling-news-ludicrous-af-episode/
There is literally nothing worse you can put on your chain!
I think he's talking about the cleaner.
I don’t wash the bike. Ever. And certainly not with snake oil from the likes of Muc Off
I wash mine after every ride at this time of year, mostly with just a garden hose spraying water, but sometimes with Muc-Off. Consequently, I don't have to ever have to do this...
Once a year, usually picking a week with sh!t weather in February, I take the bike right down to its component nuts and bolts, degrease and clean everything.
unless you’re much stronger than everyone else you’ll be struggling to keep up if everyone else is on aero bikes with deep section wheels etc
How much difference does it make? If I do a ride and it's say 50km at anything around 30km/h plus I consider that fast, what sort of difference would an aero bike make? I do struggle on flat rides but am ok climbing compared to the local quicker group but then most of them are bigger more powerful riders and they tend to like flat fast rides which I don't.
I know a few others who have mentioned this ie the local chain gang consists of only pro level road bikes and anyone on an entry level model is at a distinct disadvantage.
This doesn't make sense to me...just do a bit less time on the front then. Most of the time in a chain gang you're on a wheel. If anything, as long as you can still pedal at 30mph or so almost any bike with drops, road wheels and tyres will do.
On the OP's point - I get it. Even a 105 / Deore bike seems a bit eye watering to me now price-wise. Certainly when I built my most recent 'proper' rim brake road bike in 2014 the choice was a 105 5800 groupset at £350ish or Ultegra 6800 at £450ish (or DA at £1000-ish). It was a no-brainer to go Ultegra at those deltas, but anything more that 105 would be a bit of a decision now with the 12 speed road prices (maybe they'll calm down in a couple of years?). That's speaking as someone that does have XTR on my XC bike, just because I wanted the best, although I know in reality it makes little difference to SLX, maybe even Deore (the levers are really nice though...).
what sort of difference would an aero bike make?
Tons of articles about this. Consensus is 'some'.
It's not a lot in percentage times but you have to remember that our bodies aren't linear. Riding with 10% more power doesn't mean you necessarily can go for just 10% less time, nor does it hurt only 10% more. Going over your FTP dramatically shortens the time you can ride for and dramatically increases the pain you'll experience and you won't be able to stay with a ride at that pace.
So if you are at your limit in the group on a non-aero bike, you'll find it hard of course (by definition) but with an aero bike, even if you save 10W you'll be far more comfortable. This could mean the difference between staying on and completing the whole thing in the group, or turning yourself inside out to stay on, failing and have to ride home on your own which will take longer and cost much more effort. So it could make a huge difference to your achievement and involvement in a club setting. Solo, it's a little more complex because you set your own pace.
There could be other non-intuitive factors though. I have an 'endurance' orientated road bike which has the bars set up higher than a racey bike would be. This means I can ride almost all the time in the drops, possibly making me overall more aero than if I were forced to use the hoods more on a bike with lower bars! I can also do the flats with my elbows on the bar, pro style, which also knocks off some time.
Just for balance. if I don't get a decade out of a frame, mtb or road, then I feel like I've been frivolous. I'd be even happier if they were still enjoyable 20 or 30 years down the line. On the road bike I've been happy to keep a groupset going, ignoring usual wear items, for over a decade between upgrading. Mtb groupset is a bit different as they keep reinventing the wheel. All of my friends who started riding early 90's have the same mindset, liking the even older old-school roadie philosophy of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', and happily ride about on old kit (and cool classic cars) even though they could easily afford new stuff if they wanted, but they don't. The way I see it this attitude of 'needing' a new bike every year came about very much as the mtb culture shifted to a very Americanised mindset, the Pinkbike influenced generation where it's almost assumed you get a new bike every season in a similar way that skiers will get the latest must-have set for every season. I'd be willing to bet that the average American mtb'er has a lot more disposable income to enable this, whereas for the average Brit the price of good kit is getting a bit silly.
I think in a decade or so there've been enough tech advancements to make it worthwhile. I kept my carbon road bike for 14 years. The one I replaced it with was an 'endurance road' type which wasn't really a niche back then, it had discs of course (a huge plus for me), was designed for bigger tyres, had wider rims (which I run tubeless), it was 2x11 and therefore gave me a much wider gear range, and it had mudguard mounts which was unheard of on nice carbon frames in 2007. So given those advancements it was worth an upgrade. Although the main reason for upgrading was that the old one was too small!
whereas for the average Brit the price of good kit is getting a bit silly.
Hmmm.. in some areas yes but overall, I'm not sure. I think that back in the day a three grand bike was top of the line. But manufacturers realised that with the new-golf type people taking up cycling some people had far more money to willingly hand over so they created more and more expensive niches. Meanwhile cheaper bike and kit became better. So a £3k bike now is not far off as good as a £3k bike was in the mid 2000s, but it's no longer top of the line because they've inflated what the top of the line actually is.
People who were used to buying XTR back then (like me) now feel sad because they can no longer afford it, but this isn't necessarily a problem.
It's like Hyundai - there used to be three model trims in my car, the Ioniq, and mine is the middle one. But then they discontinued the bottom one, so mine is now the bottom. Now I have the entry level model. Do I have a worse car? Of course not. Sram did this at the other end when they brought out XX1 and didn't Shimano stick another layer of fanciness onto XTR with extra shininess on it?
I'm pretty sure the average price of a new bike in the UK is still less than £500. Don't believe everything you hear and read in your "bubble".
In reply to one of the earlier posts, Deore was never entry level.
My first bike was £450 in 1992 with STX-RC on it. It was fully rigid, had cantis obviously and it was knackered after about 18 months. The mech was sloppy as hell and it needed new rims halfway through that period and the headset had lasted about 3 months. I think I got through about three BBs and I only had it 2 years.
That's nearly a grand now, and you can get plenty of decent hardtails for that.
what sort of difference would an aero bike make?
As mentioned before the difference between hanging on and getting dropped might only be 10W, which you should easily get from deep wheels and an aero frame. Obvs if you're well off the mark, you're getting spat out the back regardless.
Currently I'm one of the few riding a winter bike on our fast rides, most others are on their summer bike with or without clip on mud guards - I definitely notice I'm working much harder to hang on.
The way I see it this attitude of ‘needing’ a new bike every year came about very much as the mtb culture shifted to a very Americanised mindset, the Pinkbike influenced generation where it’s almost assumed you get a new bike every season
I think MTB print mags that emerged in the 90's managed this long before Pinkbike was a thing TBH. Tons of adverts for upgrade parts on every other page.
Learning how it responds, how to set it up the way you want, how to get the best out of it and what it can offer you.
And that takes over a year? Really? Assuming the spec is something I am used to, in terms of adjustability, I reckon I can I set a bike up 90% of the way there, before I even ride it. The last bit within 2/3 rides, at the most.
I genuinely cannot fathom it taking any longer - the reference point from even a week ago of 'testing' is almost utterly irrelevant on an MTB when trails & conditions evolve almost each time you ride.
So a £3k bike now is not far off as good as a £3k bike was in the mid 2000s, but it’s no longer top of the line because they’ve inflated what the top of the line actually is.
I'd argue a £3k bike now would be significantly better than a £3k bike that's nearly 20 years old, in every single scenario, regardless of it's spec.
Wasn't "Mountain Biking" created with the sole purpose of getting folk to buy new bikes and parts?
whereas for the average Brit the price of good kit is getting a bit silly.
I'd argue that the price of good kit is around the same as it always has been, maybe a little higher but not silly. The price of the aspirational badge/spec level however has increased.
The SLX/Deore level components i've had/used recently are far superior to XT/XTR from 10 years ago in function and longevity (as an example) just doesn't have the carpark brag factor.
If something is good value or not does depend on the individual though and isn't solely driven by how much disposable income you have. How much do you value the marginal gains of a couple of grams saving? Are the longer service intervals (of say a good quality sealed hub) worth the extra over lower spec but more involved servicing?
This doesn’t make sense to me…just do a bit less time on the front then. Most of the time in a chain gang you’re on a wheel. If anything, as long as you can still pedal at 30mph or so almost any bike with drops, road wheels and tyres will do.
An aero bike with deep wheels takes less watts to hold onto a wheel than a non aero bike.
As for taking less turns on the front, the hardest position is actually the person on the back who won't go through as he/she has to continually catch a new wheel. Most of our chain gangs are a continual rotation - everyone gets a turn on the front and just prays the person behind them plays nicely when they come through and doesn't just drop another 100 Watts as soon as they get to the front and snap the chain....
I've always thought of it as an 'afordable Farrari' kinda thing. I can't afford a supercar, never will, but bikes is something most people can get into at a affordable level and tune and adapt personally to make a decent bike.
A mate of mine has 5+ high end road bikes, 6 or 7 k each, at least three are aero bikes of a very similar level. I've questioned this with him as, to me, they are very very similar bikes - but he also says it also has some of the affordable Firrari, they are objects of desire that he can afford.
Wasn’t “Mountain Biking” created with the sole purpose of getting folk to buy new bikes and parts?
I'm not saying Charlie Kelly made all that stuff about Repack and Marin County up, but you might be on to something there.
I’d argue a £3k bike now would be significantly better than a £3k bike that’s nearly 20 years old, in every single scenario, regardless of it’s spec.
Yeah, I can't think of a genre where this wouldn't apply. £3k buys a nice bike still. Most of the MTB gains will be in geometry and wheelsize though, eh?
Wasn’t “Mountain Biking” created with the sole purpose of getting folk to buy new bikes and parts?
T'was ever so, the reason that 1970's Raleigh's are so hard to restore is partly down to proprietary BB shell size that they used, and the shortage of parts that'll fit. Getting folks to endless pay has pretty much been the sales model since the creation of bikes.
I’d argue a £3k bike now would be significantly better than a £3k bike that’s nearly 20 years old, in every single scenario, regardless of it’s spec.
This is certainly true of mtb's where the advancements have been major. In the world of road bikes though it's not so clear... maybe not 20 years, but certainly 10. In the past the savvy amateur racer or event rider could cobble together a race frame and parts on a budget and easily get towards the UCi limit so that the kit is in no way a disadvantage on performance in competition or even of your chosen event is something like an Etape. Nowadays, mostly thanks to discs on road, that same pricepoint will only bag you something at the wrong end of 8kg often closer to 9kg. Thats more than enough to affect your performance on a big ride in proper mountain terrain, and for that reason a lot of riders into that sort of thing are riding around on bikes 2-3 times the value that they used to need in order to be competitive. On big days in the Alps I'd always rather be on the lighter bike, seamless shifting is nice but isn't such a big deal in going fast and I've never been too bothered with 'normal' braking performance on a road bike. What does a race weight competitive disc road bike cost these days...north of 6k and the rest. Im old enough to remember when an Sworks Tarmac frame was top performance for non-silly money prices an SL2 could be had for £1800, the modern equivalent is now 5k and the performance is not that dissimilar, some rightly argue the older frames pre-disc were better. Even in Mtb Xc racing world the 2022 SP Epic starts at 5k and goes upwards from there.
A mate of mine has 5+ high end road bikes, 6 or 7 k each, at least three are aero bikes of a very similar level. I’ve questioned this with him as, to me, they are very very similar bikes – but he also says it also has some of the affordable Firrari, they are objects of desire that he can afford.
One of our ex sales guys takes his high end road bikes to races in one of his Ferraris....
One thing I found myself doing was comparing what I spent when I last bought a full-sus with what the same money would buy me today. That was 10 years ago and I had entirely forgotten to take inflation into account. So that £2,200 Lapierre would be £2,850- ish today in pure inflation terms. In my head I was still mentally spending c.£2k and wondering why the bikes I liked weren't in this bracket, whereas perhaps my mental budget should be c.£3k... (ignoring all other factors).
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
With Bowman you could get the Palace Disc, Ultegra group set and deep carbon wheels for less than £3.5k. That was a top frame for crit racing, especially the rim brake version.
You can get the Specialised Allez Sprint for £2k and spend another £1500 and you’d have a great crit bike.
And in all seriousness, on my silly expensive aero bike I’ve had guys smash me to pieces while they’re riding old school Planet X rc whatnot with box rims.
But my aero bike is faster than my winter bike. Road racing is a different beast to club rides. Having the lightest most aerodynamic bike possible is important, and for someone as weak as me, it’s mentally important as well!
Generally in a race it’s important to save energy, so when in the pack yep you do less work. However a peloton is a moving beast. It’s not as serene as some overhead cam shots make it look. You need to keep moving up, this means you’re covering gaps almost all the time. Every hill is an above threshold effort, every corner into and out of it is a max effort sprint, some races, road especially the groups can get fragmented. Your going to be in the wind.
For crit racing disc braking is awesome for wet races. I’m old so can remember how poor braking used to be with carbon wheels…..it’s quite stressful doing that in a group of 60 riders flat out at 30mph praying your brakes will work. I used to ride with 50mm deep giant SLR wheels with the aluminium braking surface for this very reason. In good weather happy enough with rim brakes and carbon wheels.
Fortunately here in Blighty most of our road racing and crit racing is on smallish hills. Short and sharp is how I’d describe them.
Was interesting in a recent road race with a climb, Fillipo Ganna was leading the overall, he changed to a lighter rim brake bike at the foot of the climb, saving a reported 200 grams……
Im old enough to remember when an Sworks Tarmac frame was top performance for non-silly money prices an SL2 could be had for £1800
£1800 in 1995 is £3700 in 2022 cash taking into account inflation.
Intersting, just looked up my dream bike from 1987, Raleigh Maverick at £300 IIRC - £900 in today's money....
Probably is just in line with inflation but it's definitely crossed a psychological line for me, just feels wrong to drop 3-4k on a push bike
Fillipo Ganna was leading the overall, he changed to a lighter rim brake bike at the foot of the climb, saving a reported 200 grams……
And got disqualified!!
£1800 in 1995 is £3700 in 2022 cash taking into account inflation.
That may be the case, but that SL2 frameset was £1800 in 2009...my maths isn't on point enough to work that out but I'm guessing an SL7 is near doubled its price point. Having ridden both, an SL7 is certainly not twice as good- in fact they're pretty close despite what the marketing departments would have one believe. Am currently on a 'vintage' SL4 and comparing back to back against my mates SL7, I prefer mine for ride feel/ stifness, mine is lighter and was put together for less than half the cost- his has marginally better brakes but most riders don't use their brakes much when they're trying to go fast...that's my perspective on prices getting silly.
Yeah, the dq was interesting. Surely Ineos would be aware of the rules…..
Still interesting he thought it was worth doing. Poor chap though, Qiuntana sat in the bunch smoking a cigar and having a chat while Ganna is putting out 600 watts!
Endoverend, I’m in agreement. The canondale supersix hi-mod from about 5 years ago is a much better race bike than my silly priced new bike. Apart from braking in wet weather and inability to take 30mm tyres. But as an out and out race bike, I’d much rather the older supersix.
I keep looking on eBay but they’re still silly expensive for 4 or 5 year old bikes.
Oh and the new supersix and caad13 are fugly compared to the caad10 and older supersix.
but most riders don’t use their brakes much when they’re trying to go fast…that’s my perspective on prices getting silly.
In the dry there's not much in it. It's only really in the wet where I find disc brakes have an advantage. Plus I don't like the idea of the brakes eating my carbon rims away (not that it matters to pro riders who get new wheels all the time).
snake oil from the likes of Muc Off
It’s detergent, not snake oil. Do you put snake-oil in your washing machine for your clothes? Do you put snake oil on your hands after a piss?
Yep, detergent - great for removing grease and oil from things, especially when applied with water under pressure. I wash my hands, and my clothes - but not my bike.
I wash mine after every ride at this time of year, mostly with just a garden hose spraying water, but sometimes with Muc-Off. Consequently, I don’t have to ever have to do this…
Once a year, usually picking a week with sh!t weather in February, I take the bike right down to its component nuts and bolts, degrease and clean everything.
So, to clarify: you spend more time, spread out, reducing the lifespan of your hub bearings, headset, bottom bracket, pedals etc - rather than concentrating the work into a couple of evenings in a garage or kitchen during the depths of winter, with the happy side effect of prolonging the life of consumables and saving money? That's an interesting choice.
I suspect the whole bike polishing thing ties in with the OP's original point. I might come back to that in a few pints time.
Perhaps the saddest thing for me is that:
...residual value...
Is now part of the vernacular used when talking about bicycles.
This to me is a strong indicator that the "new golfers" have taken over...
honest question.
is 105 the same kind of level as SLX? are you really able to tell the difference to the XT equvilant? would using 105 v. the xtr version stop you winning a race? is it just how it feels to use, ie slicker changes? personally i cant tell slx from xt. i wish my ebike came with bum basic 10sp stuff as replacing it when it wears out would be cheaper. moot point of course as nothing is available anyway
As mentioned before the difference between hanging on and getting dropped might only be 10W, which you should easily get from deep wheels and an aero frame
Have you any data on the W difference when behind other riders?
Even in a gang of 3 you are spending the majority of your time behind at least one rider.
Last gen 105 actually had a great advantage over anything higher as the drive side crank arm may actually remain in its singular one piece....other than that it's weight and a slightly less plasticky feel to the shift lever. Old Ultegra was brilliant 'other than the crank' and the finish on DA was no upgrade compared to older groups, in feel they were really close. The new next-gen stuff coming out is 'meh' to my eyes, the price has gone stratospheric and so has the weight vs a mechanical priced equivalent.
So, to clarify: you spend more time, spread out, reducing the lifespan of your hub bearings, headset, bottom bracket, pedals etc
Honestly I think I'd be sceptical that I'm wearing parts out sooner. I would have thought breaking down something like a mech to its small constituent parts and reassembling them (something they're not designed for) probably wears them more than leaving them alone.
the price has gone stratospheric
That's mainly the pandemic, no one is discounting anything right now and prices have all gone up as material costs have risen due to supply problems. At some point it will all calm down.
Yep, detergent – great for removing grease and oil from things, especially when applied with water under pressure. I wash my hands, and my clothes – but not my bike.
Not sure what you are in about here. Muc Off works if you want your bike clean; so does the Halfords orange stuff and it's cheaper. It's not snake oil. Snake oil refers to something that doesn't work.
So a £3k bike now is not far off as good as a £3k bike was in the mid 2000s, but it’s no longer top of the line because they’ve inflated what the top of the line actually is.
I'd take ANY 2022 £3k MTB - even some of the bizarely specced bottom models from the high end brands - over ANY 2002 MTB at any price.
Some of the gains of new gear are psychological. Riders performance depends on how they feel and the “new bike effect“ is significant.
I remember years ago bar ends being banned in XC racing not long after their introduction as they were said to provide “unfair advantage”. That soon made everyone rush out and buy them and report how great they were.
Now nobody uses them .
I admit that big wheels do make a difference especially for racers who want maximum rolling speed.
However for a number of us who are short in stature 29inch wheels make an unwieldy unnecessarily long bike. Many of us don’t race and just want a fun manoeuvrable bike that we can use to try to progress our skills, rather than an over long A to B steam roller.
Now nobody uses them .
Although to be fair handlebars are probably twice as wide now as they were back then!
Well, this moved on! I just came back to post my real scenario, and as a result can a) conclude I got a bit of a bargain when buying my current bike and b) that pricing has risen disproportionally to inflation. The latter is shown previously so I won't repeat it. So here's why I was moaning yesterday:
a) My current machine I bought was this at £1600. I later sold the OEM wheels for some hand-built (Venn 50's, CX Ray's & Hope RS) for a net additional cost of £300. So I sunk £1900 into the bike, and thats the spec it exists in now.
b) A straight swap would be a TCR, but I want a Defy and therefore this is the comparison. So, £1000-1200 more for the same spec-ish machine 5 years later.
c) I'd have like to have upgraded during the buying process, so ideally I'd go for Ultegra and therefore this. But now we are at £3.5k and what I've achieved is slight more comfort, a set or disc brakes and slightly more performance from a Groupset.
Thats a lot of money, I enjoy my current bike and am not racing the road bikes so I'm not prepared to spend £3.5k for that... was the point of my OP. Besides, it still looks lovely IMO:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kryton1957/51138585985/in/dateposted-public/
Agreed. Bars have gone mega wide and got way better now along with nice short stems .
The late 1980s geometry was horrible when I first started… maybe that’s why I kept falling off so much 😊
Badly crossed drivetrain. Tch.
Badly crossed drivetrain. Tch.
You can't win in the STW forums can you 😀
If you bought yourself a di2 groupset, it would automatically stop you from doing that
Note I'd just cleaned it, not ridden it!
Di2 you say now hmmm, would it fit on that?
Oh god.... (runs away)
pricing has risen disproportionally to inflation
Has it?
https://www.bikeperfect.com/features/bespoken-word-the-price-of-bikes-part-1
https://www.bikeperfect.com/features/bespoken-word-the-price-of-bikes-part-two
Answer - yes but with Reasons.
Defy = good choice for your usage. But do get mudguards.
At least his brakes are in the right place for a road bike, that's a major win there.
I think the OP has summed up a common point about current state of the road bike market, in that if you've got a really pimped rim braked bike from a few years back that you're really happy with - then you've really got to want that tiny improvement (or set back) from disc brakes to waltz into a shop and drop nearly double what you originally paid for something no better in performance, and I'm directly equating road bike performance with weight here which is slightly biased to my preference to climbing big mountains...any aero benefits could be equally had by lowering frontal area by getting her slammed a bit on the stem, though the lower back may beg to differ. Groupsets don't buy that much added performance other than a half water bottle full worths of difference per jump, or some indulgent electron induced laziness in rider input.
Which is why if I crack my frame tomorrow with the last diminishing glimmers of power that still remain from the darker rear recesses of the wattage cottage, I'd currently replace it with whatever 'vintage' race frames are still available rather than pay current complete-bike prices.
you’ve really got to want that tiny improvement (or set back) from disc brakes to waltz into a shop and drop nearly double what you originally paid for something no better in performance
Oh come on. You may not care for disc brakes but for others they are a life saver. I ride in the wet and rain, and in South Wales where there are lots of steep main roads with junctions and roundabouts at the bottom. In that situation it's far from a minor improvement!
any aero benefits could be equally had by lowering frontal area by getting her slammed a bit on the stem
And if you are already as low as you can go, then what? And if you are already only taking one bottle?
I started cycling as a teenager in 2008 - I spent too much time reading bullshit reviews on road.cc and the like and completely fell for the marketing.
Makes me feel sick how many of my perfectly serviceable bikes/parts etc I disregarded as inferior and consequently threw away and neglected. I don't own a proper bike now due to being priced out. (only got a folding bike now which I will appreciate despite it being 13kg and low spec).
Di2 you say now hmmm, would it fit on that?
Just go fully wireless with SRAM AXS, looks so much cleaner (and easier to install).
I'm in no doubt discs are alright for some situations but it doesn't change the point that those Giant options the OP is considering could easily be disappointingly heavier for near double the outlay...I don't know the specific weights involved here but I'd hazard a guess I'm not wrong.
but I’d hazard a guess I’m not wrong.
The Advanced 1 - the 105 option I listed - is 8.8kg. My bike weighs in at 7.85kg without the bottle cages and HU mount. It was originally listed at 7.92 with Crossmax and some rock hard wired Conti's
disappointingly heavier
Seriously? Grammes just aren't that important. Lots of things are heavier but worth the extra weight. Like deep section aero wheels, double chainsets (on road bikes), bar tape, padded saddles, bigger tyres, wide rims and so on.
As mentioned before the difference between hanging on and getting dropped might only be 10W, which you should easily get from deep wheels and an aero frame
Would you though, even at say 28-30km/h. Most dtat I remember seeing suggested the gains are mainly for faster riders.
Most dtat I remember seeing suggested the gains are mainly for faster riders.
Yes. You gain more at higher speeds, but you save more energy when you are riding slower because you are in more crosswinds and you are out for longer for the same distance. Now, some of this reasoning may be bogus, but it's what I read.
Have you any data on the W difference when behind other riders?
Even in a gang of 3 you are spending the majority of your time behind at least one rider.
Yep, but it's not zero drag! You're still spending 300W pushing air out the way, just not the 400 Watts the guy on the front is putting out.
Any aero gains will still count for something and when you're hanging on by your finger nails any savings are worth taking...
you save more energy when you are riding slower because you are in more crosswinds
Eh?
but you save more energy when you are riding slower because you are in more crosswinds
Unlikely most aero gains only occur at narrow yaw angles. Cross winds really tug on deep section wheels....
You can’t win in the STW forums can you 😀
Certainly not.
something about the paintjob makes my eyes hurt 🙂
Down at the dull end of the spectrum, SPD520's have stopped being dirt cheap!
£17.50 in 2013, £34 now.
Grammes just aren’t that important
Said no rider pitching themselves against an Alpine climb ever. Maybe not each individual one but an extra thousand of them for a doubling of outlay would be enough to curb my enthusiasm.
Indeed, logic is short among many cyclists
Since I started mountain biking properly I've constantly traded up and swapped bikes, but I've only bought four complete bikes new since 2008, out of probably 20 or more. I managed to trade up by saving and switching frames/components as and when I could, usually ending up with a spec. of bike that I couldn't have afforded/justified new.
I wouldn't borrow money to pay for a hobby, so financing bikes is out of the question for me, regardless of income. The two bikes I currently have are a first gen Cotic Flare that was born out of a Cotic Soul and an end of run frame sale, and a Merlin Malt G1X gravel bike that I bought complete.
Both are the best bikes I've had and suit my needs perfectly, I'll never be a roadie, but do like drop bars on the smooth stuff, and like a day out on back lanes and bridleways.
I've hardly ridden either in the last year for a number of reasons, so I've considered selling one or both, replacing the MTB for something a bit lighter/faster/29er, or just getting a modern geo hardtail as a jack of all trades.
But then I looked at bike prices, and decided to stick! Any MTB I'd want is north of £3.5k new, I don't want a second hand carbon bike and don't see much point changing unless the bike is significantly better/different. Yes I'd get more for mine than I'd likely have two years ago, but dear god good bikes are expensive now.
A Transition Spur is one of the only bikes that's really got me excited - and it's over £4k, that might not seem a lot to some people, but for another grand you could buy a brand new petrol trials bike! We're seriously being taken the pi55 out of I think. Anyway, I'm keeping my bikes and I'll run them until parts just aren't available as the cost of new bikes is prohibitive in my opinion.