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Been sat trying to work out how to meaningfully slim down my Kinesis Sync as I fancy doing some winter XC races, and maybe another 12hr solo next year, and I've come to the conclusion that it's all but pointless unless I can throw silly money at it, or am prepared to adjust my riding style.
The bike is fantastic to ride, but it's just shy of 27lb (or 12kg in new money) including XT trail pedals and a Reverb. Losing the Reverb drops a healthy 200g or so, but I feel it's still pretty overweight for what should be a pretty light XC trail bike. The problem is, where to compromise?
Forks are Revelations @120mm. I'd love a Rockshox RS-1, but that's mega money, and would only save 200g still. A Reba would save roughly the same but be too flexy IMO, as for a SID... Well. All the Money and too flexy for sure! So I feel like I'm stuck with the Rev. I know other makes exist, I like Rockshox, I also like the new X-Fusion forks but they're heavier still!
Wheels are DT Swiss 240 on Mavic EN821. The rims were 450g each plus 58g worth of nipple beds, so roughly the same as a Stans Arch EX. I like the stiffness of the 821's, I like the UST, I'd prefer a 23mm or so internal width but I can live with the 21. I feel like if I change the rims for anything lighter, short of going for expensive carbon rims, all I'm doing is adding a lot more undesirable flexibility there! I like stiff wheels, I also like light, so it sounds like I've just got to find the money (by selling something sadly!) to pay for some carbon rims... Argh!
Brakes are Formula T1, which can be a bit squeally, but are very light for such a high performance brake. I'd not get much lighter without losing performance.
Tyres aren't light, but then they're not heavy either. Paper thin sidewalls on tyres don't last for me, I'd rip them in no time, do I need something with some support, which means 700g plus per end for a 29er tyre at least. So not light!
Drivetrain is a mix of XT mechs and cassette, XTR shifters and a SRAM XX crank. The XX crank is causing me issues there as I don't get on with the 26/39 ratio very well on a 29er, so I'm likely to have to replace it with something ally and (shock horror!) heavier! Though I've been thinking of giving 1x10 a go again now there's 30T retainer rings out there.
Pedal wise, I won't be swayed away from Shimano now sadly. Used to love Crank Bros, but got fed up of them falling apart. XT trail pedals just work, and give a good platform, so don't really feel I can lose weight there.
Bars are 740mm Ritchey Trail 2X. At 270g they're not that light, but then I can't find a flat carbon bar I like the shape & the price of! Stem is a Pro Koryak, at 150g for an 80mm I've got max 20g to lose before stems start to become really flexy, so it's not worth it. Seatpost is an FSA gravity light, at 270g it could be lighter but not by a huge amount. Saddle is about 220g, and not prepared to go lower on that, as it's the lightest version of a shape that I know fits me well. Grips are ODI lockons, so I know I could lose 100g here, but I don't like the feel of anything else, especially not ESI! 😕
So there you have it... Do I just have to start being more finessed or have I missed a trick do you reckon?
Looks like you've argued yourself into a 'pedal harder' corner.
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Light bicycle carbon rims 'cheap' at 250 quid ish including taxes save 50g a wheel width is great
Raceface next sl cranks 50gs ? lighter CRC have the older ones for 250
Are you running a triple/ double - easiest way to save 400+ g just man up, get a nawrrow wide ring ditch the shifter and front mech , 40t expander and you're laughing
You're not wrong!
Hence my thought do I give 1x10 a go again now that 30T retainer rings are available? I managed ok mostly with a 32T on a 26" bike. Or am I kidding myself?
Another thought is have a cheap(ish) 2nd pair of race day wheels. Say pick up some Crests on Pro2's or similar, and put some light/fast/flimsy tyres on them. Or not bother, buy some carbon rims, and swap tyres when needed?
You're at the stage of having to lose a bit at a time really if you're set on all the main parts. I have a similar issue with my Solaris but from a heavier starting point!
Personally I'd be looking at a well built set lighter wheels (my crests, for example are actually a lot tougher and stiffer than I give them credit for when I stop thinking about them and comparing them to arch exs) and try and find some lighter, faster tyres. What are you running on there at the moment?
Not light, but not heavy either really does add up unfortunately!
Oh, and 1x10, definitely. 42t one up and the modified cage
Light bicycle carbon rims 'cheap' at 250 quid ish including taxes save 50g a wheel width is great
I made it closer to 100g per wheel, so £250ish to save 200g of rotating weight, and gain stiffness. Sounds good but still sounds expensive for what it is.
Raceface next sl cranks 50gs ? lighter CRC have the older ones for 250
That's hugely expensive still! I'd rather run an SLX and put the money saved towards saving weight elsewhere such as carbon rims where it's more noticeable/useful.
Are you running a triple/ double - easiest way to save 400+ g just man up, get a nawrrow wide ring ditch the shifter and front mech , 40t expander and you're laughing
Double, and find the 39T too tall a lot of the time so use the 26T more than I feel I should. Maybe 1x10 is the answer again? I can't be dealing with a ridiculous gap in the cassette though, so would have to stick with a normal 11-36 I think. Losing the 15T cog would do my head in!
Personally I'd be looking at a well built set lighter wheels (my crests, for example are actually a lot tougher and stiffer than I give them credit for when I stop thinking about them and comparing them to arch exs)
Had 26" Crests years ago, got rid cos they were too flexy. Don't fancy the 29er version much!
and try and find some lighter, faster tyres. What are you running on there at the moment?
Geax Goma 2.25 up front, Geax Saguaro 2.2 on the back. Roughly 750-800g each tyre, setup tubeless. Happy with the grip of both (fantastic tyres in this respect), happy with the speed as they both roll very quickly, but obviously they're not all that light. But then light tyres are expensive and flimsy, so... You see what I'm getting at!
get a decent coach, far better investment
You are going to have to make a choice on some items then, reverb on a race bike nope gone. Reba's even a hefty 15+ stone plus rider like me cant find any flex in the latest ones so there's choice to be had there, buy a pair of race wheels and tyres and swop them out for your old ones when you are trail riding. Hell for a winter XC race a lighter saddle wont be a problem for the distances done.
I doubt you will get a better benefit for the £ than some carbon rims.
I would expect the 821s to be more like 500g + nipple beds in 29er guise so you could expect 150-200g per wheel saving where it matters most. Ask them to build you a light 27mm external, 22mm internal rim and you should come in around 350-360g.
Modern SID or Reba should be pretty stiff and for around £300-350.
Ditch the dropper for races and you should be able to get some bars at around 170-200g somewhere. Easton haven stem is lighter but starting to get diminishing return on cost.
...give 1x1[s]0[/s] a go...
Luddite class has less competitors 🙂
Why do you feel its heavy? To my mind its not an xc race bike and wont be. 1x will save a chunk of weight as will dropping the dropper, but realistically thats about it without changing the bike to by spending big bucks or losing the trail bike you clearly enjoy.
Losing 2, 3 or 4 pounds will do what at a 24hr solo? Unless you are riding to win then I'd say enjoy it for what it is, otherwise get a xc race bike spend gazillions on a characterless noodley speed machine.
There isnt a maximum weight limit for such events is there?
Meant in good humour, as I've had similar thoughts about my inbred which im pretty sure isnt 27 without a dropper, the rebas a bit flexy but I only notice when im looking. So I don't.
Weight saving is generally around £1/g as a guide once you have done the obvious.
So you either need to step up with the cash or get fitter, stronger and technically better.
If I was to swap anything though, the wheels with the extra nipples hide their real weight. but a 100g saving isn't that much.
I guess the XX Crank is the 120bcd one? Dropping to a 30t could find you lacking on top end speed in some situation especially if the longer events have tarmac or fire road sections. I'm on a 34t now but I will probably refit my double for a big race.
On the one by front, once you get the 16t from one up with the rad cage it really isn't too far off 11-36 performance.
On the tyres front I think some of the spesh mid range ones come in sensibly light without having fall apart sidewalls.
I'm surprised you found crests to be flexy in 26, are you sure they were properly tensioned up? You can't build them tthat tight so it doesn't take a huge loss of tension for them to get a bit wobbly
Go 1x10 and stick with 32 up front and 11-36 at the rear. You really don't need a dinnerplate on the back with a 32t sprocket unless your planning on climbing everest!
get a decent coach, far better investment
Not really looking to compete, just seeing if there's anything I'm missing a trick on prepping my bike for a few races really.
I would expect the 821s to be more like 500g + nipple beds in 29er guise so you could expect 150-200g per wheel saving where it matters most.
Just about bang on 450g each plus the nipple beds according to the scales before building to be fair, which I thought not bad considering! Would go to the 30mm wide 29er carbon rims if I was going that way, saving roughly 110g per rim.
Modern SID or Reba should be pretty stiff and for around £300-350.
They're pretty flexy IMO. Not worth the 150-200g saving they'd give me in my eyes at least.
Ditch the dropper for races and you should be able to get some bars at around 170-200g somewhere. Easton haven stem is lighter but starting to get diminishing return on cost.
Reverb only really goes on for occasional trail centre rides anyway to be fair. More for the fact that they're not the most reliable of devices in my experience!
Found a bar I like the sound of, 740mm wide, carbon, flat, 170g, but with an important 10 degrees of backsweep... The crusher was that it's the best part of £200! I ran a Kinesis Strut F750 for a bit, loved the width, loved the weight, didn't like the lack of backsweep which killed my wrists.
Easton Haven stem is actually a few grams heavier than the Pro Koryak I'm running now length for length. It's also zero rise, where I need a negative 10.
Luddite class has less competitors
For a reason! 😆 Borrowed one for a race earlier this year, only to prove to myself that I really can't manage with only one gear. I need gears I'm afraid to say!
Why do you feel its heavy? To my mind its not an xc race bike and wont be.
Indeed, but as I've got it, and I can't afford/justify an XC race bike unless I sold it, I might as well see what I can do to make it a bit lighter. I know that starting with a 4lb frame and a 4lb fork is giving me a 2lb disadvantage over a carbon frame and a lightweight fork, but that's the way it is!
Meant in good humour, as I've had similar thoughts about my inbred
I know what you mean, but having done a 12hr solo before, I know just how a couple of lbs off the bike can be really noticable, especially when you're tired.
I guess the XX Crank is the 120bcd one?
Indeed. My ideal 29er ratios are 24/36 I've found out, allows me to stay in the 36 most of the time and just drop to the 24 for prolonged climbing. 26/39 sees me changing gear way too much up front I've found.
I'm surprised you found crests to be flexy in 26, are you sure they were properly tensioned up?
Previous wheels were XM819's and EN521's, so yeah, they felt a bit flexy by comparison. I like stiff wheels though...
How much do you weigh? I talked myself out of a new road bike for the outlaw triathlon by working out how much faster a 17lbs bike would be compared to my 24lbs bike.
About half of one mph! It would be less than that for a mountain bike for me.
An 11.5 stone person produces on average 450 g of poo a day. Go for a crap before a race and you've saved your Reverb and Revelation added mass straight off!
Not going to be what you want to hear, but when faced with this I remind myself that the weight loss makes a TINY difference to times, even in xc.
EDIT beaten to it:
About half of one mph! It would be less than that for a mountain bike for me
Out of interest, how did you calculate that?
Save your money. You say you want to make it lighter for racing, but you don't want to fit anything even vaguely racey.
If you want to upgrade it, do so, just don't do it under the auspices of "prepping for XC races".
Al, very basic calculation really. Lots of assumptions. Assumed a flat course, same aero effect, tyre friction etc. Then just used 1/2 mg^2 with m being the combined mass of rider and bike and seatpack water bottles. Assumed an average speed of 17.5 mph (but I was faster on the day).
Not the most accurate method but good enough to give a feel for the scale of the difference. As you say, it's half of bugger all.
Actually I'd say 0.5mph purely down to the bike is huge... But then I think it's an over simplification.
There's not really a gap one up supply a 16t cog to replace the 15 and 17 ones
The jump at the end is fine for my 40t its only really a bail out gear anyway
'Do I just have to start being more finessed'
Yes you do. It's harder than spending money but is transferable to any bike and it never wears out or goes out of fashion. In my big book of things that are important when cycling, spending money replacing things that aren't broken is always a last resort.
How much do the Revelations weigh? 3.5lbs?
Stick a rigid carbon fork on for the races and lose over 1.5lbs straight away.
And go slower to boot 😉
njee20 - Member
And go slower to boot
But.....I don't think there was anything in the OP about actually going faster......just getting the bike lighter. 😀 ahem.....
Can't argue with that! He could run around holding a pair of handlebars, even lighter!
This is something that is well in the territory of the law of (extremely) diminishing returns, rather than strong/light/cheap equation.
It seems like the best way is to improve your body's power to weight ratio (if it needs it?), or improve skills. Otherwise you could throw a lot of money at an almost bugger-all difference...
I reckon 27lbs is a great weight for a 29er with reverb and decently strong wheels.
Are you happy with how it rides?
Its cheaper and more beneficial in the long run to lose engine weight over bike weight.
Look at the Magura forks, light and also stiff because of the dual crowns.
I swapped my QR Durin Marathons out for some 15mm maxle RS Sids and the Durins were stiffer, and SIDs are the same stiffness as Reba nowadays.
So to make a difference you consider worth it you'd need to save 800g
1x10 can get you 300-400g of that so it's a no-brainer. Cost £100ish if you've already got 10sp
Carbon bars save 100g for £70ish
Carbon rims save you 200g for £300ish
All of this saves you 700g if you're lucky - that's the same weight as a water bottle full of water so it's easy to try the difference and see if it's worth the £400+ to you.
I wouldn't do it personally, but I will do some of those things on a brand new bike, where I'm not throwing out perfectly good items.
Setting aside the "eat less move more" points.
Perhaps simply adopt a "Less is More" approach to the bike if this is going to be a "Winter XC race" bike, you already mentioned removing the Reverb, that might be a good idea simply to save it from the ravages of winter a bit. And you mentioned going 1x10, its relatively cheap and mostly means removing components, plus you'll find it less prone to accumulating mud perhaps saving a bit of carried weight over the course of a race?
Have you thought about Rigid forks? Carbon or Ally "Exotic" jobs from ebay are pretty good VFM/weight saving, or must you have some front end bounce?
As we're off down the road of setting the bike up in "Winter race spec" perhaps consider a cheap second set of wheels, save weight at the rims and compromise on the hubs for cost savings, these are coming off in March so they can be a bit gash but the key thing is less rim weight, failing that have a think about tyre choice perhaps, can weight be reasonably saved there? Personally I'm a fan of Specialized's tyres, some of them strike a pretty good balance between cost/weigh/durability and grip IMO...
But yeah; Rigid, 1x10, with no dropper, that could save you a good chunk to start with, then just ponder what you might do to the wheels/tyres a bit more...
Save your money. You say you want to make it lighter for racing, but you don't want to fit anything even vaguely racey.
Got to say that does sound like a bit of a tough build at present. I may have missed it but how much do you weigh? May just be that your current bike is as good as it gets for your body type and riding style and small additions aren't worth it for you.
Throwing money at a XC/ Endurance bike is all about attention to detail. To say "I could lose 100g here but it doesn't seem worth it" is not the way to get a light overall bike 😀
Also, talking about attention to detail... quite funny that you lust over an RS-1 but discount the Reba and Sid for being too flexy... taking on some offcamber roots or threading a line through a rock section could get "interesting" 😆
Edit: Saw your post below where you mention you are 75kg- That shouldn't discount any XC product that I can think of, even rediculously light stuff usually has an 80-85kg limit at the very lowest. It does make your current built sound overbuilt and perhaps the finesse department lacking somewhat
How much do you weigh? I talked myself out of a new road bike for the outlaw triathlon by working out how much faster a 17lbs bike would be compared to my 24lbs bike.
About half of one mph! It would be less than that for a mountain bike for me.
Probably quite a bit less than some of the responses on here assume I do to be fair. About 11 3/4 stone in old money, or 75kg in new money.
An 11.5 stone person produces on average 450 g of poo a day. Go for a crap before a race and you've saved your Reverb and Revelation added mass straight off!
Way ahead of you on that one... 🙂
Can't argue with that! He could run around holding a pair of handlebars, even lighter!
Genius! How long til the special police come and take me away in a straight jacket if I do though?
Save your money. You say you want to make it lighter for racing, but you don't want to fit anything even vaguely racey.
If you want to upgrade it, do so, just don't do it under the auspices of "prepping for XC races".
I've gotta pay and I don't want to bend/brake anything, if you see where I'm coming from. If someone else was paying I wouldn't worry too much. But yeah, you're probably right.
Saw the price of those Reynolds Black Label wheels last night... Oh dear! Suppose they're cheaper than ENVE rims on a similar hub, but ouch that's a lot of money!
Also, talking about attention to detail... quite funny that you lust over an RS-1 but discount the Reba and Sid for being too flexy... taking on some offcamber roots or threading a line through a rock section could get "interesting"
Hadn't seen that vid! Had heard Rockshox's talk of how much effort they'd put into making the RS-1 stiff though. The RS-1 should be a lot stiffer under braking forces though I expect.
Clearly the only correct answer to this question involves purchasing a superficially identical bike, but with slightly different sized wheels!
The RS-1 should be a lot stiffer under braking forces though I expect.
Another forum reports the RS-1 is 15% stiffer in the fore/ aft direction than the next stiffest fork (Lefty). Having said that, MTB involves a lot more than just riding and braking in a straight line! I'd rather have a fork with good torsional stiffness and good fore/ aft stiffness (SID perhaps?) than a fork with next to no torsional stiffness and excellent fore/ aft stiffness!
Yeah,
Wheels and tyres will make the difference.
Maxxis Ikon 2.25 ,nice volume 530 grams,same for Rocket Ron's though thinner sidewalls.
Crests are fine.
Got a set of Hope Hoops and I am 14 stone at most and have no problems.
Likewise Rockshox Sids RCT3 cannot find all this flex people are finding!
Maybe I am not gnarrr enough?
Judicious use of components to get the weight down.
Deffo 1x 10,160mm Hope Race rotors,Mr Zoom bars (112 grams)
Did something similiar with a Giant XTC alloy in XL.
Came to 21.5 lbs with Sids on.
Got some Niner rigids I use in winter so even lighter!
Thanks,
Max
You'd need to ride as RS-1 to be sure. I'm happy with my twisty Maverick DUC forks for rocks and roots (we have more rocks than roots here in the Peaks though). They are definitely very stiff in all other directions.
(disclaimer - I only weigh 58kg).
Decide priorities and change accordingly. Priority fun, taking part and testing yourself and how you improve = change nothing. Priority improving in relation to the field = change lots.
There will be fast 75kg riders pumping out huge wattage that are happy with flexy SIDs, stems and wheels.
Oh and in my opinion 12hr 1x10 32T and 11-36 is not a happy mix
If I were you I'd also look at a new bike, given the amount of money you'd have to spend to end up with a still not-that-light 25lb bike.
There's a Trek Superfly 9.6 for £1500 that looks pretty racy - should be a decent weight but I can't find the weight quoted anywhere.
If you had another bike (or even a second wheelset for that matter) you could keep super light XC tyres on them, because you tend not to encounter sidewall-ripping rocks on XC race courses.
Decide priorities and change accordingly. Priority fun, taking part and testing yourself and how you improve = change nothing. Priority improving in relation to the field = change lots.
Good point, well made. I guess it's a bit different depending on the event. The FoD XC enduro (the Enduro bit is a bit misleading, it's really just a slightly longer than normal XC race on a technical course) last year was my best ever finish in anything, coming 8th out of about 80 odd riders in category (yes, I would have been dead last in Elite I'm sure!). I felt I could still have done better though, I got held up a couple of times unavoidably. For things like a 12hr solo though, it's just about me and the bike, the competition is completely irrelevant as I'm my only competition (no point trying to keep up with guys that do 50% more laps!). I did 12 laps at 24/12 last year (missed this year as no way would have managed to get the time off work etc.), fancy doing it again next year and aiming for an extra lap or two.
Oh and in my opinion 12hr 1x10 32T and 11-36 is not a happy mix
Agreed. For a 12hr would be putting a 24T granny back on and a front mech and shifter too...
Molgrips, was tempted to go down the XC Bike route, but couldn't afford to buy/keep/run it in addition to the current bike. Been offered an ex demo Forme Winscar 29r for what amounts to a huge amount of money off, and it's certainly a couple of pounds lighter than the current bike. Was very tempted, but the fork only has a 9mm lower on it, which would mean I either buy new lowers at a huge price, or have to sell it for less than it's worth and replace with something else (not as good) for the same money with a 15mm axle. Also the 3 bolt FSA cranks, which are very light, can't run smaller rings than 27/39 (come fitted with 28/40) which is overgeared for me personally on a 29er. So they'd have to come off and be replaced with something cheaper/heavier etc. or probably convert to 1x10 on it. It's still an option though if I fancy going that route. The thing is, if it was a frame only option, I'd probably jump at the opportunity for the right money, then put a nice 15mm fork on there.
New wheels/rims looks increasingly a good idea though to be fair. Just found a Hope Pro2 front hub I'd forgotten I had in a box, I've got a spare rear hub kicking about somewhere too that just needs 142x12 axle convertors for it. I could buy a pair of Crests and lace them up as an XC wheelset, or the other option which is really appealing would be to sell the spare hubs to go towards paying for some new Carbon rims that I'd use all the time and just change tyres as and when.
Well I'm part way there to a lighter bike for XC...
Been offered a pair of BOR Cold Black 29 wheels for a price I couldn't really refuse, and they're pretty bloody light for a 29er wheel at sub 1500g the pair!
Also looking at a KTM Aera Comp 29er frame at 1250g, as it looks like I've got a buyer for my full sus to make way for this and can get one cheaply. And would probably go 1x10 with a Hope T-Rex for most of the time, and fit a front mech with 2 rings for long distance and enduro stuff. Though for now just the wheels and lighter tyres on the Sync will make a bit of difference.