Great article on NSMB about how the scene there (Vancouver’s North Shore) changed riding and the bikes we ride:
Thought this was going to be about Swindon.
Bet he doesn't even own a suit and tie.
Black sail pass 1959 where my dad discovered / invented single speed 29ers.
I get what he's driving at, but when ever I see those photos of guys teetering around on skinnies 20ft in the air, firstly I think, "that's got nothing to do with mountain biking" and secondly I soundtrack it with This in my head
I get that some aspects of the bikes we ride now come from developments that started in BC. But it's also true that some of the drive train developments came from Shimano engineers coming to the UK and asking "what the hell are you doing to break this stuff so fast?" and it certainly didn't need riding on Mt Fromme to break early BB spindles, I could do that in Wales, and doubtless they were in France and Germany and everywhere else as well. and even when I was riding XC in the Chilterns I realised that 100mm of coil fork was going to be waaay better than 63mm of elastomer...The bikes we had in the early nineties were crap everywhere for the sorts of riding that we all wanted to do.
It's like punk, the folks that like it think it changed the world, when you could argue it was disco...
when ever I see those photos of guys teetering around on skinnies 20ft in the air, firstly I think, “that’s got nothing to do with MY mountain biking”
This.
And for accompanying music...
well, it's trials, not mountain biking
Edited, thanks TJ, it's Sunday and my Brian is still half asleep 😉
Late 90s in the UK, I think Sprung 1+2 and that style of riding was as influential as the NS thing. Maybe more so.
^ this film is worth watching.
Late 90s North Shore was really influential on my riding, Kranked 1+2 mainly. No urge to ride skinnies and never had the bottle for big drops but it was basically guys pushing what we did since we started riding mid-late 80s - kids daring each other to ride steeper drop-offs and chutes or down trickier lines. Speed on some other downhills was part of it, climbing equally but I loved that slow, techy steep stuff with the pause and do-or-bail moments and keeping it flowing once committed, a lot of fun at any level. Still enjoy it.
Trials or trails nickc? 🙂
Snailbeach Slagheaps 1991. RIP. I'm surprised Brett Tippie never went there with his sandboard.
I think the vid makes ahugely valid point that the riders of the NS changed the type and direction that mtb's were going at the time. Cove bikes were pioneering with their geometries, building bikes that could withstand the beating that they were given.
The first time I rode the North Shore I immediately understood why all the bikes (at least, all the ones I wanted) ended up the way they were in the 2000s. It's a funny old place where high BBs, steep HA, narrower bars and double chainrings on long travel bikes almost (almost) make sense.
Clearly it was at the 2018 10 in Kirroughtree, when a plucky bunch of young cumbrian lads styled out the quad cat with moves so psyk they could make a Billy goat puke. Rad times people, rad times.
If you can remember it, you weren't there. Err, man.
the first community of off-road bicyclists.
This is simply wrong
there were many communities of off road cyclists all over the world well before that.
I understand repack riders desire to self promote but he and his pals were one thread that became modern mountainbiking - and an important one but the roots are varied and widespread
Oh god here we go.....
This is simply wrong
Not necessarily, he's claiming downhill mountain bike racing, we would have claimed up hill or point to point, continentals something slightly different. Anyone who has Seen a Bartholomew map knows we had riders going up and down quite technical terrain back in the day.
big and daft - if he had said that it would be correct but I directly quoted him and thats not what he said
Enough from me
^ You quoted half a sentence 😉
"As soon as they heard there was a RACE, they started showing up, the first community of off-road bicyclists."
Race being the operative word. CK even put it in big letters 😉
Race being the operative word. CK even put it in big letters
There may well have been informal off road racing in UK and Europe, it's just one location/set of characters/ availability of disposable income managed to create a series of businesses out of it
If he'd have said, "first community of down hill dirt bike racers", he would have been more accurate, but he said "off road bicyclists". That's just isn't correct.
That's probably what he meant, but should probably know by now that Dave from Milton Keynes is going to have tedious on-line argument with him with regarding the precise wording when describing something that happened 40+yrs ago. It's not like he doesn't know about the RSF, Geoff Apps, cyclocross, armed forces, life before cars blah blah blah.
We were 'freeriding' in mates back gardens and building sites in 1984 on Grifters, Trackstars and the like, but alas Withington, Shropshire will never be known as the Freeride capital of the world. One of the greatest injustices of the 20th Century 😀
There was always more to the North Shore than woodwork, wasn't there?
Influence is dictated by the media you are exposed to. Which of course is time dependent.
When I started in 1987 there were only the magazines - UK and US ones. So they were the influence and of course the Malvern Classic event each year where you got to see stuff for real.
Now the influence is diluted into all the various forms we consume our media, so the one or two influences we had in the past are gone for newbies / younger people now. Its a deluge of marketing that will be personalised into what you follow.
That's we just went mountain biking, now if you are new into it you are in danger of being channelled, influenced into a type of mounting biking, like Gravel or Enduro etc
Swindon.
End of thread.
This is simply wrong
there were many communities of off road cyclists all over the world well before that.
I understand repack riders desire to self promote but he and his pals were one thread that became modern mountainbiking – and an important one but the roots are varied and widespread
This.
It’s like punk, the folks that like it think it changed the world, when you could argue it was disco…
TJ et al are basically arguing that they invented punk music because they owned guitars in 1971 and couldn't tune them. 😀
Punk - ah well that has several strands. New york dolls, CBGBs ( which claims to be the birthplace of punk BTW), ramones as well as the UK bands of the mid 70s. the sex pistols were a completely manufactured band. Who shot Bambi? The ramones took influences from of all people - the Bay city rollers!
do you know where the word "punk" and the ripped jeans comes from ( Hint - not the UK)
Kelly has a rightful place as being central to a very important part of the development of mountainbiking. His braggadocio however is very offputting and he overstates his importance as he did here.
Punk. Yes, excellent analogy.
Was it the Pistols?
The Ramones?
The Clash?
Dead Kennedys?
All of the above & others too?
We all know the answer to that one so lets be honest about the origins of MTB too..
Here's the thing. Like most kids that have ever slung a leg over a bike, me and my mates rode around in the woods on paths and dared each other to ride down the scree slope or over the log jump...did we invent mountain biking? No we didn't, Did the rough stuff fellowship who certainly went up into the mountains, but got off and pushed when it got rocky? No they didn't either. Was it largely a group of Californians who looked at bikes, realised they were a bit shit and modified them and sold them as mountain bikes? Almost certainly they did, yes.
If you can't allow the bloke who almost certainly helped create the sport we're all doing now, on a site dedicated to mountain biking have a brag about his part in it's creation, then really, have a word with yourself .Yeah it might not appeal to your sensibilities, and even I get tired of seeing Gary's face on the side-bar, but y'know, it would be totally utterly different if it weren't for them. So maybe just heed your mum's advice about if you can't say nice things
For modern recreational mountain riding, I'd suggest nothing has changed the sport more than the creation and rise in popularity of Enduro racing.
Of course nothing existed without those who came before, so I'm not claiming this to be the be all and end all of the topic.
What nickc said about the origins of MTB.
As for influential - I'm mostly XC really, but for me in recent years it's wherever modern geometry originated. I got a Process 111 in 2014 and it suddenly all made sense, and got me right back into MTB after a period of MAMIL road biking.
Does that make it South Wales and Chris Porter?
Why are people arguing about Repack etc. when the title is "modern MTBing"?
Charlie Kelly is correct - the Marin scene was the birth of MTB as we know it.
So if the birth of MTB was the 1970s, surely "modern" is roughly the last decade?
I got a Process 111 in 2014 and it suddenly all made sense
* fist bump *
Same bike changed my MTB life, it all clicked into place and I'm still on bikes with the same reach figure now.
For modern recreational mountain riding, I’d suggest nothing has changed the sport more than the creation and rise in popularity of Enduro racing.
In recent years probably. I might question whether MTB is a sport or an activity for most of us (racing/sport vs just riding/activity) but w/o racing to fuel tinkering and testing we probably wouldn't see as much innovation. MTB as we know it came from a downhill course but I see the development towards XC ability on the same bike (adding gears etc*) to be the big moment, Enduro bikes are basically doing that to DH bikes.
*edit to add, there were clunkers with gears before Repack I think, and if there's anyone here who knows about that era it's CK! I think last time this was done on here my take on it was that the energy and excitement of MTB was what grabbed me about mountain biking when I got into it. For all the examples of fat tyre bikes off road that predate the Repack races, it was the racing and the scene they kicked off that was the spark of all things 'MTB'. Something you can pedal to the hills then have loads of fun downhill on? Sold...
2013 when I bought my bike.
For all the examples of fat tyre bikes off road that predate the Repack races, it was the racing and the scene they kicked off that was the spark of all ‘MTB’
That's what I meant.
There were other pockets of experimentation and mucking about in the woods, but the Californian scene crystallised it into a recreational activity, a sport and - crucially - a product. And it provides a clear point from which the current MTB scene is descended.
Anyone citing the RSF as an objection to this would do better to look at gravel riding.
@jameso - as you say, we need to differentiate a bit between sport and activity. I think @chakaping has it about right with his reference to modern era too. However, mountain biking is so full of niches that it's difficult to argue one development/scene has affected them all. For instance, I could argue that 2010s Ride the Divide had more influence on my riding and on the subsequent boom in "adventure* riding.
the Californian scene crystallised it into a recreational activity, a sport and – crucially – a product.
Yep. Whenever this old chestnut comes up I make the point that CK and co were the first to commercialise it, without which we'd have not seen the developments we have.
For me 2003 single-track forum ride at gentress.rode northshore for the 1st time and started to build our own. Rampage for me showed what was possible too
Coed-y-Brenin. To me, that's the transition towards formalised trail building, integrating it with infrastructure (shop, car park, café from the old logging museum) at the same time as fledgling eco-tourism.
It's the birth of the British trail centre and so the full package of MTB as a self-contained sport. Now it's hard to imagine MTB without trail centres.
... maybe it hasn't happened yet.
Or maybe it was Wuhan in late 2019. Seems to have been pretty influential so far.
Coed-y-Brenin. To me, that’s the transition towards formalised trail building
That's what I was thinking. It was a pretty significant step to where we are now with the trails people ride and the bikes we have.
Aye, I'd find it hard to disagree with CYB.
For me. Simons Copse, in the Surrey Hills. A nondescript but pretty little place, on the way up to Leith Hill sometime in the summer of 1995.
I'd done some road riding and then seen mountain bikes and had done some gravel sort of stuff on my first crap heavy old MTB, but had recently seen MBR and they had a loop in it that i still ride a variation of now.
I'd set off all expectation, then it started to piss with rain, I was soaked, and running out of gas a long way from home.
I got overtaken by a group, I think of Surrey University MTB club members who sensed I was 'in a bit of difficulty' (Sean Kelly voice) and stopped. They gave me food and energy gels and slowed down so I could ride with them for a bit up to the Tower. I was impressed by their kindness, and also by their amazing plasticky shoes and pedals.
If they hadn't come past I would have got home in the end, hated it, and possibly jacked in. I didn't.
Coed-y-Brenin. To me, that’s the transition towards formalised trail building
That’s what I was thinking. It was a pretty significant step to where we are now with the trails people ride and the bikes we have.
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don't flow as well on modern bikes? They seem to be quite tight and twisty as if they were created for slower speeds on 26 inch XC bikes with 80mm travel...
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes? They seem to be quite tight and twisty as if they were created for slower speeds on 26 inch XC bikes with 80mm travel…
I need to get the tankeresque Rail to Drumlanrig to investigate!
Anyone citing the RSF as an objection to this would do better to look at gravel riding.
Nah, not really, IMO. I started in 1992 so I have a reasonably long perspective on this. Back then there was one style of MTB, that was directly derived from the Californians, however the people riding them came from different threads. I used to ride with young people (as I was at the time) who were thrill seeking on bikes just because we'd seen the bikes and it looked cool. But there were many other existing 'outdoorsy' people who'd always been out in the hills, and seen MTBs and thought that they could ride around their mountains and hills on the same bikes. So these quite different groups were largely inspired by the sudden prevalence of the bikes, which was directly attributable to the Californians again.
I remember seeing MTBs for the first time around my local small town, probably late 80s, being ridden to shops and things, and my Dad and I were amazed as they looked really different. That prompted the 'what's that?' type of conversation, and the subsequent investigation/purchase of magazines and whatnot which showed me that MTBing was a thing. I'd never heard of the RSF at that point. I don't think many people had. It's possible that some of the outdoorsy people who bought MTBs as they became available had, but I'm not sure as I'd never heard it mentioned until much later.
Mainstream gravel bikes came about as an entirely separate thread of development, much later, based on a type of riding we don't really have in the UK. Those bikes then came to be used for the kind of riding that the outdoors people were doing on their MTBs, but you can't claim a continuous thread of development from RSF. The presence of bikes in shops and consequently out on the streets/trails is a key driver for the sport, in my opinion, which is why we are MTBing and gravel riding instead of 'riding rough stuff'.
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes?
Maybe I've got better (spoiler: I definitely have), but I find CyB more flowy and fun than ever now.
Easier though - and with more potential to crash onto rocks at speed, like I did on Beginning of the End last year.
It’s the birth of the British trail centre and so the full package of MTB as a self-contained sport. Now it’s hard to imagine MTB without trail centres.
But hasn't that 'compartmentalised' the sport, and taken it away from its 'explore the wilderness' original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
you can’t claim a continuous thread of development from RSF.
I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. But the actual activities and the mindset are remarkably similar.
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though?
Riding at trail centres is a bit of a niche activity now though.
It's all about the off-piste tracks these days innit.
TBH, I thought the answer to this question was "Swinley" and "any Sunday Morning"
In terms of equipment, for me, MTBing became a 'thing' in the mid 80s, when brands such as Muddy Fox appeared. Back then, it was all about MF and Saracen, then 'US' brands such as Specialized, Marin and Cannondale started appearing. The fat alloy tubing of Cannondales was radically different to anything seen before. That's when cycling became 'sexy'. Racers were something your dad might have once ridden. The 'go anywhere' nature of MTBs proved to be a massive draw, and MTBs outsold all other type of bicycle combined. Kids like myself, who'd grown up with BMX, had a natural transition to a 'proper' bike that offered the same kind of escape and freedom our BMXs did.
It's now seen largely as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men. Somewhere along the line, the 'sexy' got lost.
Mainstream gravel bikes came about as an entirely separate thread of development, much later, based on a type of riding we don’t really have in the UK.
What, cyclocross? ; )
Somewhere along the line, the ‘sexy’ got lost.
You're saying we need to bring sexy back then?
Was thinking about whether Rampage has the same effect on kids getting into riding now as Kranked 1+2 had in the late 90s. There's always been a gap between what the better local riders do and the extremes of what we see in magazines or on VHS, youtube or Red Bull TV yet it seems like that gap has stayed similar as the extremes have gone as far as the 70ft+ drops etc, like the good locals are doing stuff that's (say) 50% of the biggest we know of at the time, but I'm not sure. Does it have the same effect because that gap is a constant, or does it progress further via a smaller and smaller pool of riders and thf get more distant to the majority?
I know how I see it... but I'm 20+ years past having any bottle for that sort of thing and it was a fairly small bottle to begin with.
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
There's not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no. And IME, trail centres were the gateway drug for many of us, showing us what we could do, and then move on to exploring further afield, or indeed on our own doorstep.
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes?
I was there a few weeks back for a few days, think I did every trail, on my modern bike (although in fairness it isn't an enduro race weapon, its a LLS 27.5 trail bike). Few points where I lost a bit of momentum or stalled would only be improved possibly by bigger wheels and more travel - or me looking further ahead!.
There was possibly one uphill switchback where a 80mm hardtail with idiotic roadie geo would have been better suited. And definitley a few places on snap crackle and pop where such a bike would have hospitalised me. The other 99% of the rides, I don't think I could have asked for much more.
Tubeless tyres - 1 puncture in 3 days, quickly repaired with a worm
Dropper - for obvious reasons
Full suspension - balanced and being able to push into rough/rocky berms, good climbing on loose surfaces
Modern brakes - 3 days of riding in the pissing wet, no adjustments, same pads which are still going strong now
There is no way I would want to go back to a late 90s hardtail for any reason
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes? They seem to be quite tight and twisty as if they were created for slower speeds on 26 inch XC bikes with 80mm travel…
Or perhaps bigger wheeled bikes aren’t as agile as smaller wheeled bikes..
There’s not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no
By 'wilderness' it means 'countryside', I'm assuming, not your actual 'wilderness, we need bear bells, survival bags and dried food'. More, have I got a snack because I may be 30 minutes ride from a skinny latte and slab of coffee and walnut cake?
It’s now seen largely as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men. Somewhere along the line, the ‘sexy’ got lost.
Dunno about it ever being sexy but I think I know what you're getting at. MTB was just a simpler, newer thing back then. It got more nerdy and techy - I think the product interest was always there but you can get deeper into the geekery now. Back to the OP point the North Shore thing happened when so many bikes were still on V-brakes, hardtails had a place in extreme riding and the Z1 was ground-breaking suspension. It might have felt more accessible, even if not quite as affordable as we might remember (Z1s were a £650 fork in today's money).
Dunno about it ever being sexy
Did the Bikerfox picture not render properly on your device?
This forum is so shonky these days.
It got more nerdy and techy – I think the product interest was always there but you can get deeper into the geekery now
you can go deeper as the knowledge and tech has progressed, but the nerdiness has always been there
but go back in time to any point in the internet era*, and you'll find arguments about:
2.1 vs 2.25 tyres
wheel lacing patterns
riser vs flat bar
cable vs hydro
quick release vs bolt through
freeride vs all mountain
2x vs 3x
choose a blank, and be a dick about it
*and probably before too, but lost to the depths of time
Whoever killed off trailquest
There’s not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no.
As mid-teenagers we used to ride 7-10 miles to the woods on road to go biking for a couple of hours then ride home. The appeal of the ATB at first was being able to access what felt like the real outdoors as well as the riding when we got there. Not an option if you live in a bigger city but perhaps an option for more people if we went back in time RE what made a worthwhile ride.
I think the specialism of bikes away from ATBs to FS MTBs, and trail centres, influenced MTB to be a destination thing for many. Driving to a place that justifies the bike, etc. It changed because of the expectations of what we could do and what was exciting.
I think that's why gravel and bikepacking has been influential. It's shown people that adventure is easy to find and separated riding off-road from the tech/extreme interest that is so much of MTB now.
you can go deeper as the knowledge and tech has progressed, but the nerdiness has always been there
but go back in time to any point in the internet era*, and you’ll find arguments about:
2.1 vs 2.25 tyres
wheel lacing patterns
riser vs flat bar
cable vs hydro
quick release vs bolt through
freeride vs all mountain
2x vs 3xchoose a blank, and be a dick about it
So true. "my arms are all the suspension I need...". So I reckon the proportion of retrogrouches to tech nerds in bikes has probably stayed about the same?
I'd say the level of knowledge that MTB is seen to ask of us has gone up as the product tech has gone up, or it's got harder to aspire to being self-sufficient as a mechanic that it was early 90s, but yeah. Perhaps the nerdiness is a constant with blokes and hobbies.
Did the Bikerfox picture not render properly on your device?
Oh he did render on my device, but not in the euphemistic sense. I must have quite specific tastes that the fox doesn't quite reach.
Or perhaps bigger wheeled bikes aren’t as agile as smaller wheeled bikes..
Yeah, no.
I’d say the level of knowledge that MTB is seen to ask of us has gone up as the product tech has gone up, or it’s got harder to aspire to being self-sufficient as a mechanic that it was early 90s, but yeah. Perhaps the nerdiness is a constant with blokes and hobbies.
maybe not early 90s rigids with friction shifters - but once we were into the suspension and disc era, I'd argue things are better than ever.
having got over the fear that forums put in my head like DOT fluid will burn my flesh and bike paint off instantly, a fairly basic set of hand tools and youtube will fix/maintain most things these days.
Yeah, no.
How erudite of you.
🙄
Oh he did render on my device, but not in the euphemistic sense. I must have quite specific tastes that the fox doesn’t quite reach.
Haha.
I didn't mean "render on your device" as a euphemism, but if the cap fits.
😀
It looks bikerfox is hoping his style of cap fits each and every one of us : )
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
I was quite lucky I that when I found MTB I lived in the countryside, so for me at least MTB was a way of getting back to what I did as a kid but with a bike that was purposed designed and didn't need fixing after every ride. Turned out they did need fixing after every ride, but it was still fun. I think because I've always driven to the mountains to walk, it was natural for me to still go there but by bike instead, (first trip was to Sugar Loaf and I was amazed to ride in a short morning what it would've taken me all day to walk) so I've never compartmentalised it like that. I remember going to CYB for the first time and genuinely being astonished that it was all "just for mountain bikers" and that was just the 8km? long Red Bull trail which was mostly double track.
didn’t gravel riding start as riding road bike of forest service roads and the unmade backroads of north america? The RSF carried touring bikes over mountains and rode them in remote and amazing places. completely different
CYB is great and was great and changed the direction of MTB in the UK, or opened up a new branch. though as far as global influence on mountain biking goes, it doesn’t compare to the north shore.
edit: in my opinion, of course.
The North shore heavily influenced mtb for sure
Back in the early 2000s I think was the time it all changed, suspension that really worked, and good 6-8 travel bikes became more common. Big hit, Kona, Patriot, Bullit etc.
I’d had a few Alps holidays in the 90s but it was much more fire roads and v brakes. Morzine around 2003 was a real eye opener, really buzzing and a completely new type of riding so I’d say the Alps in that time were pretty influential.
One thing this thread shows is how diverse we all are
i came to mountainbikes in the mid 80s. I had ridden offroad in a RSF style since the mid 70s seeking out places to ride on a succession of modified bikes. We also did jumps using planks
My dad got an MTB to ride into the more remote munros - that was always a thing in scotland using bikes to access the hills
I had a shot on his and the key thing was a granny gear allowing steep stuff to be climbed so I got my own.
My bikes for me have always been tools to get to places =- yes a nice bit of singletrack is great but I have always been closer to RSF riding than Marin county. Indeed a Apps type bike would be far more suitable an anything the marin boys had for what I ride
for me the biggest innovation that really changed my riding was the very low gears available
The Stooges & MC5 can lay claim to the origins of punk. Dont know if they ever rode bikes in California. Probably had a a few ramps in Detroit.
There's a pink bike podcast where RC argues that the sport evolved from an adventure sport (IE can I make it to this point on a map) to an action sport (let's do this bespoke trail with berms and jumps). Hard to argue with that, and maybe gravel is an opportunity to have the original adventure back.
The shift to trail centres in the uk seems to mimic that change, as do some of the views on this thread. The north shore was organised trail building maybe a decade ahead of the Welsh trail centres, and definitely more progressive in style
