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@n0b0dy0ftheg0at - UK climbs are rarely a steady gradient. Looking at a map of your challenge there's three chevrons en-route and presumably a few that don't quite make 14% so I'd be inclined (sic) to do 4min VO2max intervals with a view to improving recovery so either 1:1 or 2:1 effort:recovery.
My polarised plan is going quite well - it's actually pretty easy to follow at this time of year as you can used the weekends to get long Z1/2 rides done so you just need to find 90mins or so twice during the week. Wednesday's workout was a bit of a technological "how not to ...", the power meter battery warning came on five minutes into the ride and my Garmin then stated that its memory was full so didn't record the whole ride. The workout consisted of 9x2min VO2max intervals. Fortunately the timer functionality still worked so even though the PM conked out after the third interval I knew where to ride to on the hill to get the right figures.
Today's workout was better: new battery and a cleaned out Garmin. 4x16mins at threshold! There's a local hill that takes me 14-15mins so that's close enough. My times for the first three laps were within 15secs of each other but I faded a bit on the last and lost 30secs. I was also a bit over threshold (the hill has ramps of 16-20% so hard to keep an even effort) and my average power figures were 105%, 106%, 105% & 103%. I did enough of an effort at one point that Intervals.icu bumped my FTP by 7 Watts. Their estimate has continually been lower than what I've tested using the Ramp Test so it's possible I'd be higher on that as well.
Thanks @whitestone , will endevour to try 4min intervals over the weekend, my legs were still a bit sore from ~150TSS yesterday so I went with https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/less-than-30-minutes-to-burn/lactate-shuttle-short (mainly 1min VO2) tonight and then added the odd z4/5 effort on the remaining inclines up to the radio tower and back to Watopia base.
Any other races coming up? around London? I only found out about Gorrick by chance.
Not that many around London, as well as Gorrick there’s https://eventrexuk.com/mountain-biking/ in the SE.
I couldn't find an instantly available workout on Zwift that did 4mins VO2 intervals and trying to create a custom workout on the Surface Pro seemed impossible, because it would not bring up the virtual keyboard to change the default interval lengths.
So I went with "The Gorby," 5x5mins VO2 with 5min rests yesterday afternoon, https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/less-than-60-minutes-to-burn/the-gorby ... Brutal after a work shift and having done z4/5 intervals on Thurs and Fri, this morning the legs are the sorest they've been in some months... I expect today might be a pootle on the hybrid in the granny ring at best! 😆
5x5? At what % of VO2max power? Whatever it is that can’t be pleasant!
Does anyone know, I read twice yesterday that a 20 min test can result in better power using a lower than usual cadence, shifting effort to quads and glutes rather than the cardio system?
Details in the link, www.whatsonzwift.com breaks down the Zwift workouts as %FTP or Watts for your inputted FTP. 😉
5x5 @ 110% FTP
I've ever done The Gorby once before and that was 3 years ago, it was a lot more unpleasant than I expected, but I've had three days heavy training load by my own standards compared to the last ~15 months. I'm at 558 Strava "Relative Effort" this week after averaging ~200 for the previous three weeks after the OxAZ first jab hit me for six, when I'd typically do approx 400-500 (as a mix of 3 shifts of delivering mail by foot, cycle commuting, plus other cycling including turbo).
Thanks for the race info.
I also like the short lactate shuffle, although I perhaps do it in a strange way - set it to 115%FTP and see how far into the final Z6 interval I can make it (not sure if I've made it half way through yet).
Soo... I'm actually going to give a zwift training plan a go..
the 12 week Build Me Up...
I'm still sticking with my FTP from when I was beasting the STW races over xmas.. 301W..
I suspect it's too high, and i'm more likely down at 280ish.
But..i did the 'zone benchmarking' workout this am, and it felt pretty bang on...
My main issue will be time - fitting it all in...
I think i'll likely do another FTP test in a few weeks..but again..time!!
DrP
There's a new Southern XC round at Pip Park on the 13/6. Might be of interest to those of us doing the Vittoria the following month. I shall probably go to it to eyeball some of the ground. No doubt I'll disappear out the back somewhere between the start gun & the first 100m...
I'm back to square one again, my consistency is down the pan due to work/house moves and injuries, so I've given up trying to get faster and am focussing on developing a core and strength routine for the next 2-3 months before CX training starts again.
Riding will just be good old fashioned sporadic and structureless, will hopefully mostly maintain on-the-bike fitness and continue to develop base, whilst sorting out whatever the hell it is that has reduced on-bike time to such a lottery of back pain.
When I am feeling good on bike am still feeling pretty good though, some proper rolling and twisting TT efforts last night resulting in some surprise KOMs, which was nice 😎
Continued experiments with nasal breathing seem positive as well, able to maintain it for longer and harder efforts and it always seems to correspond with good performances on the bike so will be a useful tool going forward, might help reduce exercise induced asthma type symptoms on the CX course although unfortunately I doubt I'll be able to nose breath at CX race intensities!
Hmm, on the recovery week at the end of the six week polarised plan so went on a local loop that includes part of the Leeds Liverpool canal for a steady ride. This was on the HT so no power meter just ride by feel and a bit by HR.
There's a 4.5km segment on Strava, my PB (Feb this year) is 10:30 and got within 30 seconds of it "without really trying". Certainly the RPE today was way lower than on my PB, say a 6 rather than 8 back in Feb, so something's working. Confession: it was harder than the intended intensity of the workout but I felt fresh. Intervals.icu gave me the same TSS for the workout as the plan prescribed so the rest must have been a bit easy!
The polarised plan fits in well with work: there's two "effort" days with the rest being Z1 (out of three) endurance which is what most of my normal riding is anyway. In truth it's only the VO2max workout - varying repeats of 2min intervals - that actually feels like a full-on workout, the threshold workout is tough but just feels like hitting the hills on a group ride.
I'm going to move on to the 8 week build plan. It's actually very similar to the 6 week one, the main difference is that the 2min intervals increase both in number and intensity. VO2max stuff is my weak point anyway so I want to keep pushing at that. I can do all the workouts outdoors as well which is a bonus at this time of year.
New Gorrick event for those interested 12/9:
Anyone racing the Mideweek MTB madness series in the North West? First round on Wednesday night. Will be the first MTB race i've done since 2018! Can't wait
There’s a new Southern XC round at Pip Park on the 13/6. Might be of interest to those of us doing the Vittoria the following month. I shall probably go to it to eyeball some of the ground. No doubt I’ll disappear out the back somewhere between the start gun & the first 100m…
I'm having my nadgers cut off the thursday before..unlikely I'll be racing!
so i've completed the first week of the 'build me up' programme, and did a session today at 0630 for this week..
It's good; i actually enjoy ahving a schedule of training to stick to.. no more 'on a whim' workouts.. I know i've got to fit in 4 sessions this week, so plan it ahead.
Ths am was hard though as had been on the fizz all weekend!
DrP
Decided to scratch an itch I've had for a while and entered a local Crit in a few weeks time.
Cat 4 - any tips...?
here’s a new Southern XC round at Pip Park on the 13/6.
I'm in!
New Gorrick event for those interested 12/9:
Hmmm, for how long though?
Hmmm, for how long though?
Likely to be 4hr - not sure I’ll be motivated to ride for longer by then. I think I’ll want a bit of a break!
I’m in!
Yep - most likely me too. A role call closer to the day ?
Yep. I’ve entered the XCO regional on the 13th for familiarity which is perfect as the Vets starts at 1pm, so plenty of time to get there, get familiar with the journey and event arena etc as I’ve never been to Pippingford. I won’t be competitive so that’ll basically be a race intensity workout keeping out of the way of the serious folk.
The July marathon starts at 10am, is there camping? Cant see anything about that on the website.
I’m in for the 6hr at the Gorrick, last event before my annual October rest month.
Training wise it’s sweet spot during the week and long hard endurance - split between 2.5hrs turbo and 3hrs Mtb - over the weekend for me currently, with some VO2max and sprint intervals coming between the two Pippingford Park events. After the Vittoria marathon is 7hr MTB Sat and Sunday before tapering to the Pivot 12hr.
When was the recent update to TR plans released? I only noticed it yesterday and it seems to have dropped the IF on a lot of workout plans, if I am reading it right.
Tapped out Dade +1 yesterday, which is hard - 9 intervals at 120% @ 2.5 mins, and had Kaiser to look forward to next week which is a beast IIRC. Intervals lengthened to 3 mins with minimal power reduction to 118%. But it's been replaced with more sedate stuff in the update.
Recall a lot of chat about too much intensity in TR plans - don't know if this is a direct response.
TR updated the plans a couple of weeks ago, a few threads about it on their forum. It seems like they've been updated to prepare for a full roll-out for their Adaptive Training system. If you were on a plan then so long as you didn't update it you should still have the original plan in your calendar - if I understand things correctly.
Just looked at the progression levels for Dade+1 and Kaiser - Dade+1 is 6.8 and Kaiser 8.0 so quite a jump, I think they only recommend a progression of around 0.5/week.
In a similar vein - I got accepted onto the AT beta this morning. Interesting how it's categorised some of the workouts I've been doing. At least two have been marked as "Struggle" and "Not recommended" but they were just part of the threshold progression in the polarised plan and I'd have put them at "hard/very hard", i.e. 3/4 out of 5 on the post workout survey. I can't go back and update them as there's a seven day limit on editing things.
I'm currently doing a polarised plan - fits in better with steady MTB rides for the endurance side of things - so it might be a while before I actually get into it full time.
@Garry_Lager see here:
Now similar complaints about them being too easy but TR argue that you should get better compliance with the new plans. I am on the AT beta so it doesn't really affect m as such - my plan adjusts to my current level.
Thks, interesting stuff if their vision of adaptive training can be realised.
Definitely on board with more completable plans in the main, but was looking to do some harder speciality next month for tens. You've always had to pick and choose stuff out of TR for tens, though, and there is plenty on there to use.
I can't remember if it's just those with access to AT who can see this.
Go to the workouts page on the TR website and if you click on the VO2max filter it should expand to show a range of subcategories. I also see another top level filter: "Progression Level" with options 1-10 which lets you filter for workouts with particular levels, so choosing 5 will show 5.0 - 5.9.
I think the subcategories are available to everyone but not sure about the progression levels. It might still be beta users only.
What is the riding like at Pippingford Park? I'm tempted by the marathon event in July.
What a difference a few mm saddle height makes?
Swapped saddles again before Wednesday's(?) outdoor ~1 hour gentle ride, trying to find more comfort, recalling how I had a ~3 hour ride a few years ago on the WTB Deva that gave me far less discomfort than normal. Didn't get the desired comfort, but no other issues.
Put bike on the turbo on Friday for two ~45min mostly gentle rides and I started getting pain on side of left knee, bit behind left knee and bit of lower left hamstring. Turns out the Deva's stack height raised my saddle position by ~5mm compared to the saddle it replaced, so I lowered the post ~5mm.
Cycled to/from work on Saturday on my commuter hybrid, did my delivery and knee/hamstring was fine.
Did a light ~40min turbo session ("Mend") and the same knee/hamstring niggles returned, especially if I tried to spin at my normal 90-100rpm, but less of a problem at ~75-85.
This morning I've woken with discomfort above the kneecap on the front, in that void that's created when you bend your leg.
I went through a summer of left knee issues in 2019, after switching to 3-bolt Time XPro10s from 2-bolt Time XS Carbons and making a mess of initial cleat position setup for my bow legs, but after a month or so of tweaking (including ~30 degree bend at bottom dead centre) and taking things easy all has been fine until now.
Now switched saddles to my Specialised Toupe Gel, kept seat post at the lowered 5mm level, but wondering if I've written off at least a month of z4+ training and whether to pop out as originally planned today but take things easy... All because I didn't check the saddle height when switching saddles and that ~5mm would have reduced the knee bend at bottom dead centre by ~5 degrees. :/
10 days till Pip Park.
Whose in?
How are we feeling?
Personally, I’m aiming to just finish! It’s been a long time since I’ve raced this distance..
OK, here’s my thoughts on the Trainerroad Polarised Plans. They just happened to come along before I finished my last Plan Builder assigned progression. I was starting to get a little jaded with that if truth be told, after all I’d been doing some variation of Low Volume Sweet Spot Base and various Build plans since October 2019 (all hail the Covid lockdowns!) so something new would be of help.
I went with the Mid Volume plans, six week then eight week. The reason for “stepping up” from LV wasn’t so much that I was fitter (I was) but that my LV plans invariably included longer weekend rides so I was really swapping LV + unstructured/un-associated rides with an endurance ride associated with a workout.
I set all workouts to be outdoors. I began the plans in the first week of April just as the weather here in the UK was becoming drier if not warmer - we’ve had one of the coldest springs in recent years. This raised its own problems in that I live in a hilly area, even the “flat” roads are anything but, “rolling” would be a better description. Not a problem with the endurance workouts but a bit of Strava detective work, i.e. looking at my times on various potential hills and I reckoned I could map workouts onto some of those. It’s surprising just how far you can go, even uphill, in sixteen minutes! Also the hills aren’t a steady grade, the one I chose for threshold intervals had 150m @ 20%, 200m @ 10%, 100m @25%, 800m @ 5%, etc. Pacing is a nightmare!
I haven’t done an FTP test in a while - I don’t seem to get on with the Ramp Test - but I have a good idea of how various workouts should feel and, yes, let’s be honest, I’d probably stagnated. The eFTP from intervals.icu was 5W lower than that obtained via one of the few good Ramp Tests I’ve done: 267W vs 272W. (When I started on TR back in Oct 2019, my FTP was 244W) Because of this I’ll use eFTP as a proxy since there were updates during the plans and it’s the one figure I have to compare over the period plus it’s always been within 5W of the TR figure.
One last point: I signed up for their latest feature - Adaptive Training, basically machine learning, shortly after the announcement but only got added to the Closed Beta when I was one week into the eight week build plan. Since I’d added the plans manually rather than doing the use Plan Builder then swap out the plans method I decided to keep on with the Polarised Plan and ignore AT for the duration. I knew I wouldn’t get any adaptations but I wasn’t looking at going along that road at this time.
I found the endurance workouts very easy, in fact the hardest part was keeping the power down, this was in part due to the aforementioned rolling roads - keeping to 70% of FTP is rather tricky when you are faced with a 16% grade! Most of the time I just went for a ride and didn’t bother about the duration so a 2hr workout often ended up as a four hour ride. I often did these on my mountain bike which doesn’t have a power meter so I went by HR instead - I’ve a good idea of what pace/HR to do for 70% and Strava’s estimated power isn’t far off.
The threshold and VO2max workouts meant hill work. The first threshold workout called for eight minute efforts - easy enough. My PB on the segment I used for the 16min threshold was 13;30 so slightly short of the duration required but pacing and using the next bit of road meant I was never much more than a minute short. The plan called for two repeats, then three the next week and four the week after that. After the last of these Intervals.icu bumped my eFTP to 272W, i.e. the same as from the Ramp Test. Here’s my notes from that workout:
"Pretty consistent with times and power on each lap/climb. A slight decline over the first three then a bigger drop to the fourth one. I think a fifth would have been really hard work so just right for where I’m at. The power levels were actually: 105%, 106%, 105%, 103%, so pushing into the bottom of VO2max territory - this is born out in intervals.icu which shows 24mins in that zone, so probably the intervals were really a set of over-unders. Looking at the power trace, they do look very over-under in nature, albeit with the overs at 117% and the unders at 90%, obviously dictated by the gradients and ramps of the climb."
VO2max is one of my weak points on the trainer - I possibly move the bike a lot and the fixed nature of the trainer means I can’t do that. Outside I’m a bit freer. My chosen hill for these varied between flat and maybe 5% but long enough that I could choose “flat then climb” or “climb then flat”. Again these worked well and I hit or exceeded the power targets repeatedly and consistently though 12 efforts over the same bit of road do tire somewhat!
I didn’t see any further improvements during the Base phase and the start of the Build phase was delayed slightly by a four day bikepacking trip in the south of England.
Build.
There’s a few common workouts in Base and Build and one of these, saw my next increase in eFTP to 276W. The week after this saw a significant rise in eFTP to 291W. Here’s my ride notes:
“Got an email from intervals.icu that my eFTP had risen to 291W because of this ride! It could well be right, my average power for the four climbs was 316W, 294W, 294W & 302W. The middle two definitely felt repeatable, with an FTP of 272W they would be at 108% whereas with a 291W they are at 101% - much more likely. Also I shouldn’t be able to ride for 15mins at 116% as with the first interval, again with a 291W FTP that drops to 108%.”
There haven’t been any further improvements. The two plans though designated Base and Build are pretty much of a muchness so there’s not a lot to say about Build that hasn’t already been said about Base.
Overall the plans fitted in with work and the weather surprisingly well. I felt that targeting just two hard workouts a week was much easier, in the sense that I could really hammer them rather than fear them, than the three called for in the Sweet Spot LV plans and I could really focus on them.
One thing I have noticed: I suffer from cramps quite a lot but following the Polarised Plans I’ve been getting much fewer attacks. Not sure if it’s entirely related or just coincidence.
I’ve not manually bumped my FTP within TR but workouts on my latest plan do feel “easy” - I could have done another couple of sets of Ritter with no problem and Tunnabora’s Sweet Spot could have been twice as long without worrying me.
In conclusion. Do they work? A qualified yes from me. It’s a bit hard to tell if the improvements were because of the plans themselves or just that I needed a change. Certainly for summer they make a lot of sense with only short sessions of hard work with the rest of the time really being “just riding”.
Just thought I'd bob back on here to see if anyone has been doing anything for the upcoming CX season? I did the TCCTP CX program back in April/May/June because I know that may summer is always a sh1t show for training with holidays & work etc. Managed to gain 20W on my FTP although it may have dropped slightly since finishing the program.
Yes! Did some gym time (squats, hip thrusts, some core) and started tailoring outdoor rides towards shorter threshold intervals and was developing some local loops for training thrashes.
However all I have achieved to-date is aggravating some existing muscular imbalance leading to some nasty hip and adductor pain, so just as season is looming I'm having to take time off saddle ☹
Looks to be quite a fragmented season this Autumn so think I'll back off for a few weeks and use any races as technique training, dedicate my midweek training to strengthening etc.
Will file this as another learning experience, maybe 2022 will be the year where I start the season at peak fitness and uninjured! 🙄
I'm planning on racing the cross season - although right now I'm doing nowt as I'm feeling a bit hammered from TTing. Was only doing tens, as well, which is sort of pitiful constitution-wise. Need to glue some tubs this weekend so hopefully the solvent will perk me up.
Did the Kolie Moore ftp protocol a couple of weeks back if anyone has given that a go? Quite a comfy way of getting a reliable value if you already know roughly where you are. There's not much to it - just do some VO2 max clearing efforts, bit of a rest, then 10 mins at 98% , 30 mins 102%, then all out. Avg power for the 40 min block + all out bit is ftp.
Because you're never really above threshold for the bulk of it it's quite palatable, and will generally be more accurate than ramp tests or other approximations for most riders.
My last 20min+ FTP estimate effort before this afternoon was three days after my second jab in mid June. My god, I'd forgotten how draining they can be, especially after a month of taking it easy while dealing with a throat infection!
Interesting day's riding today, en route to the Oban Sportive hill climb event at Cruachan I did a morning spin around the Cowal peninsula, with a fair smattering of sustained steep climbs and 20% ramps.
I paced it as best I could by heartrate to keep enough in reserve for the event.
My eventual time was just shy of 17 minutes, at 177BPM average. I was gubbed at the top, as close to being sick as I've ever been on the bike.
So how do I translate that heart rate to e.g. 10 minute intervals. Arguably 17min @ 177BPM means my lactate threshold HR might be just under 177BPM?*
I've been doing 3x10minute efforts locally at sort of 170BPMish so I guess I should maybe be capable of pushing a bit harder?
*on basis that heart rate from a 20minute FTP test is equivalent to LTHR?
Ok, ignoring the heart rate stuff and back to basics, I've stupidly gotten stuck in a new work/commute routine (or rather, lack of routine) that makes consistent outdoor base miles very difficult to achieve during the week.
I've tried doing hours of Z1 on trainer and it's purgatory, so it looks like early morning sweetspot sessions might be the way to go, say 2 x sessions during the week.
Has anyone else adopted a sweetspot only routine during the week, is it sensible? I'm still clinging to the theory that sweetspot done right is sort of equivalent to base miles in that you can do lots of it and recover fast.
Following recent purchases the world of shed based numbers, data, sweat and pain are opening up to me and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...
Are heart rate zones and power distribution zones (broadly) linked? i.e. should zone 3 for power also be (broadly) zone 3 for heart rate? Or are they separate non-comparable things?
Questioning as during this morning's 45 minute workout (first actual workout, the previous sessions have just been to acclimatise to the bike being on the trainer and the static position etc.) that centred around what is meant to be predominantly Zone 3 power exercises to build FTP with recovery in Z2 and some short visits to Z4, my heart rate was for the majority mid zone 2 with only about 3 minutes ventured into Z3.
I'm happy my max HR is correct or near enough that it would make no real world difference.
Have I underestimated my FTP/Did I wimp out (I was probably fairly fatigued) when doing my FTP test and do I just need to recalibrate the pain my legs will feel in a FTP test and redo it?
The exercise didn't seem particularly difficult, neither was it ridiculously easy - the hardest aspect was the alarm going off an hour earlier than normal. Could it be right?
The two zones (power vs HR) aren't really relatable because HR can fluctuate daily dependent upon a number of things (sleep, heat, cooling, hydration etc) so training with power is better and I would ignore your HR for the moment. You will gradually get used to what the power at different zones feels like. HR is a lagging indicator so takes a long time to respond to the change in input either up or down so by the time you are in the right HR zone you could have finished the interval.
Just be patient and get used to it (both training with power and HR). Did you do a ramp test or different testing format?
Ok, that sounds reassuring robbo - assumed power was what I was meant to be following but wasn't sure if I was way out somehow. I shall continue as I am then, as you say getting used to the feel of training again (10 years since anything formal) and learning zones etc. will take some time!
Yes I did a ramp test due to being a bit fatigued and not having any conviction in my ability to pace a blind attempt at a 20 minute FTP and there was absolutely no chance of me trying a 60 minute one.
There is a link but it's not direct.
Warm up for 15 min starting in Z1 for 5 min, then Z2 for 10. You'll probably find your HR and power end up roughly agreeing. Then do a 30sec Z4 (power) interval. At the end your HR will be nowhere near Z4, at most it'll be just getting up into Z3. So there's definitely a lag there. Take a 30sec break in Z2 (power) to recover, then repeat the intervals another 19 times. By the end your HR will be up in Z4 during the tough bits, but only drop into Z3. Do a 15min warm down in Z1, and at the end your HR will still be higher than it was when you started.
As well as the factors @robbo1234biking mentions, illness and fatigue will also affect your HR. Tracking your resting HR can be useful (assuming you have a smart watch) - the days you wake up with a lower RHR you'll find the intervals a lot easier.
The age old dilemma for those like me that regularly get ill... At what point do you ditch the old FTP estimate and use a new lowered post-illness figure for training zones and calculating TSS from rides?
Towards the end of September, I did a few virtual cat2 climbs (including 40mins @266W up Bealach-Na-Ba) in preparation for finally tackling my first real world cat2 on Oct 9th, so I was quite happy to climb Road To Hell in just over 36mins @ 265W considering the ride from Prestatyn to Denbigh.
But then I caught a "super cold" as per the thread I started and I've never known a cold/flu like it, the fatigue/weakness/pain in my quads and knees when simply walking around the flat and especially climbing the stairs was unreal, very similar to what I went through in April after my first OxAZ jab. After ~3.5 weeks, waking on Thursday just gone without this felt like a revelation!
I've sporadically jumped on the turbo for short sessions over the last four weeks at what was Z1 or very low Z2 power and ~150W felt more like threshold, over the last couple of days I've managed one 20min effort of 204W in the middle of a Zwift "race"... Basically ~24% loss from my pre-lurgy 20min stats.
The dilemma is... Do I keep using my pre-lurgy 271W until it's been six weeks since I got that stat, so next weekend, giving my body more time to recover? Or do I change my FTP to 194W and adjust it as I hopefully get back more fitness (so rides in the meantime will acrue more TSS)?
Are you training for any particular event @n0b0dy0ftheg0at? Sounds like your immune system has taken a bit of a walloping so I'd be inclined to park the structured stuff and just ride outside freestyle for a bit. Or just spin the turbo watching a cross race on the screen, something like that.
Just parking everything in z1/2 for the winter is out of style AFAIK - you should still do some reg intensity. I just wouldn't be that arsed about my ftp.
No, nothing in particular in the short term, so I'll mostly try and simply just build up some gentle-moderate time in the saddle for now and see how things go. Unless the weather is exceptionally good, rides to the South Downs hills will be knocked on the head soon until around March, so cycling will be reduced to commutes and the turbo, but hopefully I'll pick up some fitness and FTP heading into spring.
Having only started to ride for fitness in Jan '17 and having access to power meters since Dec '17, I've had this silly goal to do a 316W+ 20mins (for estimated 300+ FTP) from my 4iiii, which I've come close to a few times but not since summer '20. The even wilder goal was a 4W/Kg 20mins+ effort from my 4iiii, but given I've gone from ~73Kg in Aug '17 to putting a load of weight on since Feb '21 to now be ~84Kg, that one is a non-starter for now and at not far off 48 it's getting harder to flog my body as hard as I did a few years ago... Not helped at all by numerous setbacks over the past ~16 months.
But I shall see what hapens, once I've given my body a bit of time to recover from that ~4.5 week flu bug, today's first postie shift back at work felt far harder than it should have.
Hmm, thought I'd revive this thread to ask a couple of questions and found I was the last person to post on here! 😆
I'm still snacking too much and I'm struggling to get under 84Kg, but through some fairly regular short Zwift races and the odd TT, I've improved my best 20mins to 278W and I'm now able to do ~300-310W for sub 14min 1 lap races... So a bit of positive progress.
https://intervals.icu/ has looked at my sub 20min 1 lap races and has given me an estimated FTP of 295W recently, which is significantly higher than 264W from 95% of that 20min effort in a Zwift TT about a month ago.
Ambitiously overhyped estimate, or do others find their eFTP reasonable?
Anyone found turbo rocker plates have drastically improved their ability to stick out longer turbo sessions? Looking at the Lifeline rocker plate with SALE10 on CRC for ~£160, I'd love to be able to tolerate turbo rides longer than ~75mins, so that 2hr+ outdoor rides aren't a massive shock come spring.
I'll add my training question to this revived thread, soz can't help you @n0b0dy0ftheg0at with your questions!
Anyway, my doubt: like a lot of people my drinking crept up (OK, rocketed) in the run up to Christmas, and with it my resting heart rate (RHR). Dry January is having the hoped-for effect, and it's now dropped from mid sixties at New Year to mid to high forties this week. The question: what effect does this have on power when I'm out riding? If I'm riding at a steady 140BPM is that the equivalent effort to 155BPM on New Year's Day? Or is 140 today the same as 140 a month ago?
The simple answer to your question is "how does it feel?". RPE is often a more effective measure for training. That said, RHR is not linked in that way to aerobic HR. If you were really unfit and that was causing a high RHR then obviously you'd struggle more with training, but here you've just dropped the amount of cortisol in your body.
I’m still snacking too much and I’m struggling to get under 84Kg
download and use my fitness pal, when I lost a good chunk of weight a few years ago it helped get those last couple of kg's off, with regards to snacking, there would be time Id fancy something mid afternoon and then when going to log it in the app being put off due to how many calories it was! Although it did open my eyes to other things I could snack on which were healthier but just as filling.
When telling the app how much you wanna lose dont go mad and get given a huge calorie deficit to hit, my target for each day was 2100 plus exercise which did me fine and got those last couple of kg's off, overall I went from 87ish to 79 over several months with MFP helping for the last few I couldnt shift
I was thinking about this thread the other day, I should probably join in. I entered an off-road tri in Aviemore in September, so I need to get working on my swimming and running obvs. So I planned a week including two runs, one swim, two Zwift races and one longer ride. The aim is to do three weeks of that and one rest week.
I'm bad at running so my runs are currently just base miles, so it goes like this:
Mon - rest
Tue - Zwift race
Wed - 5km (ish) run
Thur - Zwift TTT
Fri - Swim
Sat - 10km ish run
Sun - long slow road ride 3hrs ish
I've done three of these weeks and it's now rest week, and amazingly I've done every single workout which is something I've never managed before. The results are as follows:
Garmin estiamted cycling VO2 max 48 -> 53
Garmin estimated running VO2 max 45 -> 46
Weight - steady
Zwift FTP - no change, due to race tactics and pacing
Garmin training load around 1050 (whereas. before it was usually at about 300!)
I realised this was a big increase in load so I ate whatever, and it meant I could keep going and recovering. My legs were generally ok, I really surprised myself how well I could recover. But towards the end of last week it started to get systemically tough, rather than aching muscles.
My average and max has plummeted during Zwift even though my average power has stayed broadly flat. I think this is due to gains in aerobic capacity being offset by increasing muscle fatigue. I'm going to do an FTP test on say Thursday or Friday and hopefully I can get a better result.
My running has got slightly quicker but much much easier, which is the plan at this stage - and my average HR there has gone way down.
My swimming is still physically really weak. I can swim well and efficiently for about 4 length then it starts to go to pot as I get tired. I need to do 1km for the tri. But there's plenty of time.
The plan is to do another three of these 3 week blocks and try and control the eating to get the weight down and get used to the load. Then I might bring in running speed work, and I'm considering ditching the Zwift racing for some specific training intervals because whilst it's good for VO2 max and motivation (racing with a team) I don't think it's the best training possible. Particularly the TTTs as I seem to be improving quicker than my team mates so I am not going flat out any more.
It's been a really interesting experience so far. Since giving up on racing a decade or more ago I've been trying to diet and lose weight - and failing. But it's great to see how I've responded to lots of training with plenty of fuel. But the weigh still needs to come down eventually.
The question: what effect does this have on power when I’m out riding?
AIUI it doens't. Your heart hasn't become less efficient. Your heart responds to the needs your body places on it. So if you drink, that can make RHR go up but when you exercise it is working on getting oxygen in and CO2 out, and those things are still the same. So unless it's changed size, it will still pump the same rate to get the same amount of blood around your body.
My swimming is still physically really weak. I can swim well and efficiently for about 4 length then it starts to go to pot as I get tired. I need to do 1km for the tri. But there’s plenty of time.
I got back in the pool this month after years out of it, once a week was not cutting it for me so I now do 2 swims minimum per week, 3 is the aim per week and its finally clicking back, when I saying clicking back its fitness, technique and technique when fatigued which was/is missing. I'd add another swim if possible to your week, potentially even on that rest day.
Running wise and intervals, you could change your 5km run to a warm up, intervals then cool down, also changing your 10km run so you run slightly slower pace, then every 3 or 4 weeks go and run the race distance to check for improvements.
I assume you're a decent cyclist from the cycling work you are doing, maybe consider dropping one of those session per week to fit that extra swim or another run in.
technique when fatigued
Yeah this is it. I am considering another swim. But in terms of triathlon with a 1km swim, the difference between swimming 2.00/100m and 1.40/100m is only just over three minutes which is not that much in a 2.5hr event, and would require a big training commitment. So there's an argument that the swimming training is less value for money, so to speak. And it's the one I enjoy least; and it's also the one I have to pay to do! The run is 10km, and putting the effort in there could realistically see me go from 1hr to 50 mins, and that would save more time overall.
Re the running, yes I will move to intervals later in the year. My current aim is to be able to run 10km regardless of speed without being sore for 3 days afterwards which seems to be happening now.
Re dropping a bike ride - this makes sense - the reason for doing two currently during the week is that I'm in a team that does two, and that is a key factor in motivation over the winter months. I'll change the plan in the spring since I won't want to be Zwifting and I'll want to do some outdoor riding and MTBing which will change things a fair bit. For this to be sustainable it has to be either enjoyable or easy to fit in.
I am considering another swim. But in terms of triathlon with a 1km swim, the difference between swimming 2.00/100m and 1.40/100m is only just over three minutes which is not that much in a 2.5hr event, and would require a big training commitment.
You definitely need another swim, you won't be doing 2:00/100m if you're getting knackered after just 4 lengths. Obviously you're not aiming to be one of the first out of the water, but you do need to get out reasonably fresh. Lose the rest day and get a swim in, if you can.
You definitely need another swim, you won’t be doing 2:00/100m if you’re getting knackered after just 4 lengths.
I usually do 2m15 in the sea on holiday, averaged out over 8-900m with breaks, without doing any other swimming at all. So I think 2.00 is a reasonable target. I'll see how it goes and add another swim in if I think I need it. I'm targetting 2.00. I can't lose the rest day though. I can swim fine at that sort of pace it just needs breaks of 30s or so, or a couple of lengths of breast stroke. That's what I'm trying to eliminate.
But I've also been concentrating on legs in the last 3 swims, which makes me more tired but might not be wise, I'm not sure. I have purchased a pull buoy.
Next time I go I will try 4x200m rather than try to swim straight through.
I've been building my distance up by doing intervals, started at 4 lengths x 4 then went, 4 lengths x 6, 6 x 6, 8 x 4, 16 x 2, 20 x 2. When doing the short intervals I was doing 1:48/100m, now I am up doing longer distances I am at 2:00/100m. 122 seconds isnt a lot to lose when you consider the times for the bike and run, but to be feeling fresh coming out the water would be very useful IMO.
I've never trained with a pull buoy or fins/paddles, just build up my distance and really concentrate on my breathing technique, even more so when fatigued, I find that when fatigued, my arms get lazy and when I go to breath on the weaker side when bi breathing I'll miss the pocket and take in water rather then air.
https://intervals.icu/ has looked at my sub 20min 1 lap races and has given me an estimated FTP of 295W recently, which is significantly higher than 264W from 95% of that 20min effort in a Zwift TT about a month ago.
I think intervals.icu calculates eFTP off one recent max effort, guessing they maybe apply an average power curve anchored at that point an read from that?
Mine seems artificially high at the moment and I'm not really sure which effort it's approximated from, WKO on the other hand uses 3 recent efforts (short, medium and long durations) which is coming out much more realistic.
Maybe if you've done a short max effort recently (highly probable in a Zwift race) and you're more of a short power type than a TT'er then could explain it?
@oikeith that sounds promising, I was thinking that was a good approach. Reading about swimming training is so overwhelming - I don't really care that much, what I want is a simple route to get up to 1km without much faff.
I fatigue quite quickly but I can still swim, my technique is just much worse and I stop mostly out of frustration.
That sounds quite hardcore in terms of load - but are Zwift races the best way for cycling training (I’m no expert - I’m new at more formal training and dabbling with Trainer Road structured plans)?
I’m thinking about a sprint triathlon later in the season if I can get my running and swimming up to scratch. I can happily swim a mile in the pool (which I do twice a week most weeks) non-stop but I’m terrible at front crawl so it’s mostly breast stroke. I have a bit of a fear about head in the water for whatever reason so I panic a bit sometimes when trying front crawl. I also struggle with goggles that are waterproof without being ludicrously tight - a point I think I’ve now got sussed.
In terms of swim training for triathlon I guess you want arms to take as much of the strain as you can given your legs are them going to cycle and run?
Yeah I agree, I start reading about drills you could do, but I was slightly time poor so didn't bother doing them.
Did my first 20 lengths x 2 today at lunchtime, longest intervals and overall swim to recent date, I was wounded at the end of the second 20 lengths but managed to stick with it.
Something which has also just come to mind, the Aviemore tri is a open water swim, I assume this is with a mass start, if you suddenly go from freestyle to granny breaststroke you're likely to get run over and get a few whacks from passing swimmers. To avoid this you could swim on the edge of the pack but this would then potentially add extra distance to your swim pending how wide you take the turns by the buoys, you could look to yoyo off the back, but then you might get slowed down by the other back markers, so getting a better swimmer will help you swim quicker but then also potentially avoid any further delays when in the water
I also struggle with goggles that are waterproof without being ludicrously tight – a point I think I’ve now got sussed.
I ended up with zoggs predators, the larger eye pieces mean I dont need to do them up as tight.
In terms of swim training for triathlon I guess you want arms to take as much of the strain as you can given your legs are them going to cycle and run?
If I remember correctly, advice is to do some good kicking towards the end of the swim to get the blood flowing to aid getting into transition and onto the bike.
I’ve ended up with some Magic 5 goggles. Managed to wear them for the full 70 lengths (25m pool) I did last night so I’m now good on that front. I have very deep set eyes and getting a good fit has been a struggle - tried 3 or 4 different pairs before these!
Next is cracking front crawl breathing without panicking....
Magic 5 goggles
I've not seen or heard of them before and now I want a pair!
Question for those using Zwift to do a training plan, does Zwift direct you whether you should be sat or stood during a session?
are Zwift races the best way for cycling training
Well, depends what you mean by 'best' doesn't it?
The races (as opposed to TTT) for me represent good VO2 max training, I think, based on what I end up doing during them. The TTTs I'm not sure. But they are a good blast of high intensity generally, I'm motivated to do them and to try hard, and crucially they are short enough that they don't take a lot out of me. I don't know what effect they have on my FTP as I don't test regularly. I am considering dropping the TTT for a crit race or maybe just a focused interval session as I suspect that they are getting towards junk training currently, on the flat ones. The hilly ones I'm not sure about.
Question for those using Zwift to do a training plan, does Zwift direct you whether you should be sat or stood during a session?
They do, but workouts where you are instructed to get out of the saddle are very rare from ones I've done. I did https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift-racing/week-6-2-leg-openers and it suggesting getting out of the saddle for the first half of the final two sprints, but I didn't bother (110rpm cadence isn't that extreme for me).
As much as I want to lose the excess weight I've put on especially over the last 12 months, my restraint is awful in the winter months, as is common for those like myself with SAD that often crave carbs in any form.
I really need to do a FTP test and see if intervals.icu is right in thinking it's now close to 295W rather than the 264W. I've ridden everyday since 2nd Nov, just after my ~3.5 week flu in October, up until Xmas it was a lot of z1/2 with usually just one sub 40min "Oh Crit" race per week. Since early Jan, I've typically been doing three sub 15min Team Electric Spirit sprint races each week along with plenty of z1/2 and my race power average has improved ~20W... But whether I could flog myself at that pace from ~14mins to 20mins at over 300W is the big question. I've not done 20mins+ at z4+ since I started these lunchtime sprints.
Intervals.icu is set on a max effort of 5mins minimum by default, your estimated FTP is extrapolated from a typical power curve anchored on a recent workout/Zwift race etc.
If you've been doing lots of short sharp efforts then your modelled number may not be close to what you can currently achieve using the 20 minute format - depends a little on your rider type.
You could try going to settings and increasing the miniumum duration for eFTP, knock it up to 15 minutes perhaps? May give you a more realistic 20m target until you've trained more at longer durations.
are Zwift races the best way for cycling training
Realistically, no. AFAIK no pro cyclist or triathlete is using weekday Zwift racing as a training strategy. But that said, presumably no one here is a pro, and none of us are relying on race results to pay the mortgage. Zwift races are obviously a lot more productive than couch surfing, and if you enjoy them, why not? Perhaps a targetted plan would get better results, but you'll have to decide how much that really matters to you 🙂
Reading about swimming training is so overwhelming – I don’t really care that much, what I want is a simple route to get up to 1km without much faff.
There isn't a simple route to get up to 1km swimming, at least not if you want to do it reasonably well. Swimming is 80% technique / 20% fitness, and that technique is a right pain to learn. Youtube videos will give you some decent pointers, but really the only way to actually get better is to take classes. But again, we're not pros here, and if your aim is just to get to the end before cutoff you could probably just do the last 500m breaststroke.
But again, we’re not pros here, and if your aim is just to get to the end before cutoff you could probably just do the last 500m breaststroke.
Yeah, I just want to be able to do the event reasonably well. The target I've set myself is to do it all crawl without pausing, and the stretch goal is 20 minutes.
Zwift races are obviously a lot more productive than couch surfing, and if you enjoy them, why not?
Yes, and in my experience they are also much more productive than an evening 60-90 min spin on a local ride. Because they are higher intensity. I can't keep up that intensity on a normal ride with traffic, urban roads and descents and everything, but all the time I'm negotiating that stuff adds fatigue and body load without any specific training benefit. So whilst not perfect it has value.
And of course, the best workout is the one you don't put off because you are lazy, and my races are team events so that is a key factor.
There's also the motivation element for a Zwift race against a structured session...
Yeah, I just want to be able to do the event reasonably well. The target I’ve set myself is to do it all crawl without pausing, and the stretch goal is 20 minutes.
I've swam twice a week through Jan and have just hit 1000m, but doing 2 x 500 and my times are in the 22mins, I reckon another month to get my 1000m to around 20mins, going back to your previous post about plan, def get the second or more swim session in!
A poor result on my first FTP test for ages. My FTP appears to have gone down, but my average HR for that kind of effort has also gone down. It looks like the zwift racing I've been doing has improved my VO2 max but not my muscular strength so my heart is easily getting oxygen to my muscles but they cannot pedal hard enough to stress it as much.
It's as if I've months of base riding into one month of Zwift. So I think I'm going to drop the Thursday TTT for a high intensity interval session.
Molgrips if you want muscular endurance this early post base you may just look at some Z3 rather than high intensity, and if you really want to build it fast lower the cadence e.g mid z3 at 65rpm on a turbo will feel like climbing a 1-3% gradient.
Just picking up on this one again - just coming to the end of the sweet spot training part of a trainer road training plan. Aiming for end of June when I have a 3 day mtb long weekend in South Wales.
In particular this training plan seems to be working better than previous ones. I think I came out of the winter a lot lighter than last winter (84kgs vs 77kgs) knocked off 2 kgs of Christmas excess and now sticking around a stable weight of 75kgs (I’m 5’9 but dabble with weight training as well so I don’t have an upper body like Chris Froome).
Presumably this is a better base to push power / stamina up than when you’re both trying to lose weight and get decent training in.
The sweet spot seems to have given me a better ability to keep a higher cadence on road bike commuting whilst still putting out what feels like decent power. In terms of mtb I can push harder for longer on parts of the trail - plus climbing is definitely easier. Mtb performance is definitely my priority.
I’ve got a week next week of much lower effort turbo sessions before going into a block with a lot of vo2 workouts in there. Are they to build peak power effectively - with the sweet spot having built a bit of a base?
Yep, sweetspot just replaces traditional base - it's considered more practical for those with families, jobs etc. who may not have time to put in hours of low aerobic.
Ah right - it’s definitely more practical thats for sure. I can grab 45 mins to an hour several days a week for sweet spot - but couldn’t find time to do hours and hours of Z2 style training. Previously (before having a family) I had more time for riding but I don’t think I ever got to feeling as good on the bike as I do know with a more focused plan.
Scanned thru the recent posts on this page and can’t see anyone that has answered the rocker plate question from a few months ago. I have just got one and yes it was expensive but I have gone from training for an hour and having coccyx pain to doing 2 hours with no problems apart from my fitness!!. Got a side to side and forward back plate and it feels odd at first but now feels very natural. Hopefully will help push my fitness as I can jump on and do the base miles cos when I’m outside I go a lot harder than I should.
The plates are a game changer if your trainer lacks any sort of flex. @teamslug how are you getting on with it?
Can I hit you lot with a bit of a left field question?
I don't have access to my turbo at the moment however I do have a gym with a concept 2 rower. How transferable do you think intervals on the rowing machine will be for mountainbiking? Does anyone have any suggested sessions?
I can run a few times a week to keep up my ploddy base fitness but despise running intervals so in my head thats when I'd like to use the rower. I had a go at an interval session the other day and it seemed like a good workout, something like 5x 1000m efforts with 2min rests and I was quite cooked at the end. I'm still not 100% sure how it works though!
I set the lever to the middle, 5 or 6, I'd read that this doesn't make any difference to the resistance or the distance calculation but don't quite understand how all the inputs work together? I was doing the 1000m intervals at about 2:00min/500m pace, to go faster do I need to up the stroke speed or push harder? or either?
Cheers for any help
First thing to know is that Concept2 adjustment is not resistance / power adjustment: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-general-info/damper-setting-101
For VO2max capacity the rowing will transfer quite well to cycling. One thing to look for is ensuring good posture when rowing as in general cyclists strength is mostly in legs.
My first ever successful FTP test! 😁
Have attempted maybe three previously but always paced them wrong and never managed the full 20.
This time I limped over the line with snot dangling from my nose and sweat pouring off me, so I'll consider that well paced! 😎
Only problem is I did it on a set of rollers. I have the power curve for the rollers so I know my pace of 28km/h should in theory equal a power of 337W or FTP of 320W, but I also know I'm absolutely NOT that strong, so I'm guessing the curve was developed by a heavier rider or someone with softer tyres or a less well waxed chain 🙄
Either way, I know what virtual power to train to now, even if I don't know my *actual* FTP (although being distanced on the CX course over an hour by a guy averaging 250W should give me a hint ☹️)
Mega-bump!
Ignoring my post above (10 months old now anyway, lots of viral water under the bridge since then 🙄) I'm now eyeing up 2024 events and potentially a multi-day European adventure in September.
Before then though I'll have the opportunity to take 4 or maybe even 5 days to do a wee mini-tour in Scotland, ostensibly to take in some amazing looking roads I've seen around Kyle of Lochalsh etc.
Just wondering how best to incorporate three or four days touring miles into a training plan. I was thinking doing them three months out (e.g. May time) to top up my winter/spring base training before really getting into a summer of more high intensity hill reps and shorter weekend rides, before doing a couple more 'big' days in the run up to the September event.
I've not seen many articles about how to utilise a week long endurance block properly, anyone any tips or suggestions?
Ta
I was going to start another thread but this resurrection seems timely.
I started a new job about a year ago and my commute dropped from 10km to 2.5km. I really noticed this year that my mountain biking has suffered.
I do weight training 5 days a week (little and often) and mountain bike at the weekend. I feel great for the first hour but then it just seems like my body feels terrible. I also feel pretty shit the next day.
I'm guessing that I wasn't really appreciating the benefit that 50 minutes of daily low effort commuting was giving me so I've started trying to figure out how to recreate that and discovered I was probably doing 4-5 hours of zone 2 training per week with my commuting which is now no longer there.
One thing I'm not sure about though is when they say 80% of your training should be zone 2. Between the weight training (4-5 hours) and the mtb (3-4 hours) per week, that would mean I'd need to do between 35 and 45 hours of zone 2 training per week. Which seems a bit excessive.
So, is there anywhere that gives guidance on the amount and best way of adding zone 2 training for people who are already doing a lot of high intensity exercise?
My plan is to add a couple of 2 hour zone 2 road rides in each week as that should more or less replace the commuting I used to do but I wonder if there is a better strategy?
I believe the 80/20 rule refers to the actual sessions rather than the total time. I.e. if you're doing 5 sessions a week, one should be really hard, and the other four should be easy.
OK, but isn't just that another way of stating the same problem. If I go by the 'best practice' I'm looking at finding time for 35 zone 2 sessions a week.
I'm trying to find guidance for people who are already doing a lot of high intensity work.