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What are people's experiences translating heart rate zones outdoors?
I ask as I'm getting quite confused trying to take succesful turbo sessions and replicate them outdoors (e.g. today was supposed to be 3 x 10 minute climbs instead of 3x10 threshold etc).
I think a lot of the confusion just stems from the difficulty in keeping the heart rate high at times, it only takes a little dip or gust of tailwind for me to 'lose' 10BPM and I sometimes struggle to get back up to where I want to be.
I understand that BPM is not the end goal so I suppose I should just be focusing on how the legs feel?
I was frustrated today as I should have been able to do my three climbs each at an average of approx 170BPM, but by second interval I was in trouble! Looking back, each climb was actually 13-14 minutes though, so realistically I should probably have been aiming for a lower BPM anyway (serves me right for just glancing at the KOM time and thinking I wouldn't be far off, need to get the ego back in check!).
A good session otherwise...
Riding outside is totally different to indoors and has a much more variable nature. It sounds like if you couldn't complete the intervals that you want too hard initially? Personally I'd focus on doing the workout well and accept HR is very variable depending on lots of factors. After all you are training to ride faster not perfect your HR! Perceived exertion is probably the most useful metric I reckon.
It sounds like if you couldn’t complete the intervals that you want too hard initially?
That was my thinking, although in truth if you remove the messy heartrate, my third climb was fairly consistent with my first climb, just felt harder, so arguably it was a fairly good session.
After all you are training to ride faster not perfect your HR! Perceived exertion is probably the most useful metric I reckon.
Yeah absolutely, fundamentally this is about pacing and figuring out how to pace variable climbs. Obviously I can't just go full gas (my excuse for being 4 minutes off KOM...) as I couldn't do consistent repeats that way. At least I'm learning, I didn't just smash it wildly at the bottom because my legs felt good, I gave the pain a minute or two to creep up on me...
If I didn’t have a power meter I’d just go off perceived effort when riding outside. HR is way too variable for me. Biggest influence on HR for me is cadence. I can drop my HR significantly for the same power just by turning a bigger gear.
OK, good stuff, time to learn my RPE properly!
In truth it's probably the best use of the HRM right now, giving me a context for how my legs and lungs are feeling...
I can drop my HR significantly for the same power just by turning a bigger gear.
But then you’re shifting your training from aerobic to muscular endurance. It’s good to understand how that works and the income/output vs what you want to achieve.
I have a power meter on the road bike but what it's often good for is telling me how my base condition is as some days I just can't hit the same power numbers. There is a big difference between doing a workout well rested on annual leave and after a stressful day or being up overnight with a baby. If you are hitting consistent speeds the last session should feel almost unmanageable, I reckon, to know you have got the most out of hill reps. I'm othen guilty of doing the last slightly slower than the first too as I'm fresh and raring to go at the start, Not so much on the 3rd, 4th or 5th intervals 🤪
I don't really do any quantitative training outside, but have noticed out for a Z1 bimble on the bridleways my HR is often below 100. Never seen it that low on the turbo, even just noodling around on zwift listening to a podcast it seems to start at 120.
I guess it's usually colder outside and the turbo just switches you on more.
Working out your RPE on the trainer, assuming your FTP and other levels are correct, is the way to go. I pushed a few workouts outdoors and did them on my MTB which has no PM so just went on RPE but also with an eye on heart rate. The Strava estimation of power was within 5% of what it would have been indoors. I ought to do some workouts outdoors on the road bike but do them by RPE then copy the FIT file, strip the power from it before uploading then compare all three values.
Indoors, my HR drifts by 10-15bpm across a workout. That's pretty consistent: if the workout is 4x10min then the average HR for the final minute of each interval drifts by about 10bpm for an hour long workout and maybe 15bpm for a 90min one.
The empirical cycling guys explained the hr drift thing as demonstrating you are working hard. Can't remember the exact physiological explanation but it's a good sign!
https://www.polar.com/blog/cardiac-drift-effect-on-training/
https://turbotripping.com/effects-of-heat-on-exercise/
I don’t have a Pm on my MTB so RPE is a good skill to learn. I use that and HR to just the approximate effort when racing.
Does anyone know of some software or a website that can analyse power data from ride files? I'm going to start the TCCTP & for the CTS field test I need to measure my power for 2 efforts over 8 mins. Short of just recording a couple of 8 min rides on Zwift or Strava, I can't see any other way of getting my average power for the period.
Could you not just generate a power curve for ride files in Strava/ TrainingPeaks and read off the 8 minute peak power figure? Problem with taking a 'ride' is that it might not be your best 8 min effort.
intervals.icu does quite a lot - currently free and will pull ride data off strava for analysis.
+1 for intervals.icu. Obviously you have to link it up to Strava (I think he imports from Garmin as well now if you don't have Strava) Might not be as feature complete as WKO but it's easy to use: click on the activity in the calendar, click "activity power" and you have your power curve. Just slide your cursor along to the appropriate duration.
I don’t really do any quantitative training outside, but have noticed out for a Z1 bimble on the bridleways my HR is often below 100. Never seen it that low on the turbo, even just noodling around on zwift listening to a podcast it seems to start at 120.
I am the same - 120 appears to be my minimum inside even doing 50w! It only goes to 150 when I am doing 250W! Must be a cognitive load thing or something.
🤣 TR do like their cognitive load 🤣 Not saying it's not valid, but it does get mentioned a lot at times.
As for my training, my knee seems ok, but some of the fekking physio execises for it (lumbar rotation and it/piriformis twists) have put my si joint out big time. So where as my knee was a pain for riding, I can't do anything just now due to the pain in my back and I'm off work with it too as can't sit, lie or wander for any length of time. 😥🤬 Back at physio tomorrow.
Cheers for the heads up on intervals.icu
I have been wondering for a while how to add a backbone of structure to my week, and quantify what I need to do in order to progress and get better. I have not really ever had a training programme before [that I have followed]. Last couple of years I have managed to cycle about 4K miles - mixture of MTB, road, commute - the most competitive I get is the odd club TT, weekend club runs. I have challenged myself in the past with things like Keilder 100, Lakes JennRide, Mayhem etc.
I have subscribed to TR on and off for many years - but just can't seem to get motivated around their plans. I end up matching TSS with Zwift rides, outdoor rides and hardly ever do the TR workout [as prescribed].
I have tried doing my own workouts in TP, and exporting to RGT - but I dont find that platform particularly motivating either.
In lockdown I have enjoyed 'racing' some events on RGT and also the Thurs night TTT - its been quite social over Discord within my club. I think that [and peer pressure] helps.
I decided to try Xert the other day. You select the type of rider you want to be [sprint to endurance], set a desired rate for improvement, upload 3 months history from Strava and off you go. Its very power meter based but can utilise data from HRM too. Differences to TR that i've found:
1. No threshold test - FTP derived from riding data [not a biggie for me but convenient].
2. No training plan as such, daily suggested workout based on ride history and aims.
3. Smart workouts - Trainer workouts adapt to your performance on the day while you are actually doing them.
4. Daily 'motivational' status update - are you on track to reach your goals? Also shows what you need to do today to maintain progress, and the effects of not training.
5. Global measure of your overall fitness [pro, elite, competitive, trained etc] + fatigue levels.
6. Some cross over of trainer power meter data to real world riding - not tried this yet but can calculate the ceiling of power that you have available to use during a ride [on Garmin] - to help pacing.
I quite like the format - the focus on what you need to do today to continue to train for improvement seems particularly good. Has anybody used it over an extended period? How did you find it? Does it work for you?
I think I've made an arse of this training malarkey.
Plan was to increase my general fitness on the bike by using sweet spot, intervals and zone 2 rides.
I have carried this out pretty much as planned but I think I messed my zones up at the beginning (based it on the good old 220 minus my age and then add a bit based on my limited heart rate monitor use). I've however seen my heart rate exceed 200bpm multiple times over the last few weeks, this is 20+ bpm over my supposed max. This means I've not been training hard enough to make the adaptation gains I could/should have made. I do feel like I have made gains but could I have made bigger ones?
Also after reading an article on trainer road I think I've been messing up by doing my weekend rides fasted. I thought I was doing a good thing as this would teach my body to use mostly fat (feel fine after). But I think I've been doing these too high an intensity and for too long so my body has been metabolising some muscle for fuel.
Lastly I don't think I've been eating enough protein. I read it should be 2g's per kg of body weight so that's 160gs a day for me.
Lots for me to think about and change up.
Firstly the 220-age method tends to be way out for anyone who's active. At 61 mine should be 159 but I can sit at 175 for several minutes, hmm.
Secondly, as noted in most of the TR output and elsewhere, using HR to set training zones is fraught with difficulties as it's dependent on so many external variables that the effort equating to a HR of Xbpm one day could be X-10bpm or X+10bpm the following day. Far better to use RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) which sounds like it should be "airy fairy" but it's surprisingly accurate once you've dialled yourself in.
Long distance rides (fasted or otherwise) should be below Lactate Threshold 1 (LT1), that is Zone 1 in the three zone model or zones 1 & 2 in the seven zone model. If you don't have a power meter then LT1 is very roughly the same as VT1 (Ventilatory Threshold 1) and is the point where your breathing gets a bit harder and where you can't hold a conversation, even if it's just with yourself.
Thanks for the response Whitestone.
I think that my gauging of my efforts by RPE seem to feel about right so maybe I've been doing that bit right (despite of my heart rate not quite lining up). But I reckon that some of my fasted rides have been above zones 1/2 I'll need to be conscious of this going forward.
I'll also up my protein intake.
This is the British cycling suggested eating plan when training (I've added the approximate calorie amount based on experience and My fitness Pal).
- Breakfast - Porridge oats/eggs - 300
calories
Mid morning snack - Fruit/Yogurt - 300
caloriess
- Lunch - Wholemeal bread sandwich/jacket
potato/left over pasta from the night
before - 500 calories
- Mid afternoon snack - a piece of fruit/pack
off unsalted nuts - 200 calories
- Evening meal - A piece of chicken/
fish/other lean meat with
Ricee/Pasta/Vegetables - 600 calories
Pre bedtime - A milky drink before bed - 200
calories
Total 2100 calories
I'm not far off that diet wise but I'm struggling to see 3,000 calories in that list that (apparently) someone of my height and weight needs when training. I suppose I could just up the portion size 🤔 😜
Could do with a critique of my proposed 'plan'. Currently I'm starting week 7 of the Wattbike base plan, I had intended to follow this up with one of their others but they are a bit uninspiring and outside cycling will be more appealing. The base plan has been quite enjoyable so far and achievable and I'll see it out more or less(sometimes an outside ride will take preference over proscribed session). I'm also hoping to introduce some strength training when I can get back to the gym.
The target is to regain any cycling fitness I had and hopefully improve upon. The last four years has seen me more in the gym than on a bike and I reckon I'm easily 25%+ down on performance, coupled with a bit of added weight performance is not great.
After the base plan the idea was a basic 4 week periodisation type training with one long ride, one harder ride(either wattbike or local loop) and some hill work per week. Strength training would be on a maintenance type level. I seem to have a lot of info but struggle to pull it all together into a package or plan.
I'm toying with the idea of utilising the wattbike more with zwift, trainer road etc though may just wait till after the summer. The zwift racing does appeal mind you as I seem to be more motivated with something to aim at.
A quick question for @whitestone or anyone else that’s done the Cairngorms Loop
During training for the aforementioned loop, what did you do for your longest ride? I was roughly thinking of two reasonably long days (10hrs per day) back to back and one separate longer day out at around 15hrs.
Hi Piemonster, I completed the CL300 as part of the group ride last year. My training was mostly similar to what you proposed.
Try a get a couple of trial full weekend rides (or even a long Friday night ride, bivvy somewhere and ride back on the Saturday) with your race setup, even better if this can be done on parts of the actual route to help with familiarising yourself with it. As I went off route quite a few times. Aim for 2/3 race distance.
Some things that I learnt from my experience of both training for and riding the CL300:
- Don't go too mad with your kit, a simple setup was perfect for me even though the bothies were closed last year so couldn't rely on them for shelter.
- Test out your kit and how it is packed, this will save you a ton of time and frustration when tired. I prepared my sleep kit by putting my liner inside my sleeping bag that into my bivvy bag.
- The CL300 has a fair bit of climbing and a lot of it is pretty steep so when training, climb as much as you can, find the most horrible climb where you live and ride up and down it a lot.
- I lost 6kg training for the CL300 and it definitely helped.
- You will also be pushing your bike a lot too, I neglected this bit in my training and my calves were incredibly sore towards the end and took a week or two to feel better. So hillwalking/running would also be good training, maybe do some gym work too.
- When training closer to the event and whilst riding it, ride cautiously, you don't want a silly OTB to end your attempt.
- Pace yourself, don't get too excited at the group start and ride up with the fast guys if you're aiming for a more relaxed pace (I set off way too fast but was fun riding up at the front for a bit).
- It was an amazing experience but not one I'd be rushing to repeat as it was so hard work.
- Take photos as it's amazing scenery.
- Eat and drink constantly.
- Take every chance to eat proper food (soup and roll at Glenmore lodge, bacon roll at Aviemore petrol station, chocolate and milkshake from the shop in Tomintoul and
chicken burger at Braemar).
- Pack dry kit for sleeping in, this can be your next day kit ie bibs, jersey and socks.
- Smile as much as you can and try to enjoy it. It's hard work but incredibly rewarding (was totally out of my comfort zone but I achieved it).
Good luck!
Ian
Pretty much as Ian says, I'll add the following:
Pacing - if you can hold a full conversation then you are going slow enough. When I did the HT550 I thought I was just ambling along. It was only when I compared my Strava times with Neil Beltchenko (first back in 3d10hrs) that I realised I was almost as quick as him, overall just 10% slower riding time, and on quite a few long segments I was actually quicker but he didn't stop for as long as I did and so finished nearly two days ahead of me.
I take a merino top and bottom baselayer for bivvying, it *never* gets used for anything else, that way I know I've something dry to change into when I decide to stop. This adds degrees to my relative warmth as I'm not having to dry my wet kit out whilst also trying to get to sleep.
I wear the same riding kit throughout - hang shorts up when bivvying to let them air. Socks will stay dry for about half an hour before the next burn crossing!
Practice using your kit, particularly your bivy kit, everything has its foibles and you need to know what works for you.
For bivvies, be inventive - I bivvied in an old horse box that I saw next to the track: dry and with a bed of hay to lie on.
Actual training - just ride lots and for as long as you can. It's really just time in the saddle for these events but don't overdo it. Mike Hall used to say that once you know you can ride 100 miles a day on back to back days there's no point in repeatedly doing it as it takes so much out of you, save that for the actual event.
I'm sure we had a longish thread about the CL last year if you can find it.
Cheers both
Kit choice is dead simple, aided by going solo with a good weather window. I'm 90 minutes or so from BA and have a fair degree of short notice flexibility with work. My sleep kit a bag/mat/bivvy/pillow. Ive faffed around with tents/tarps but honestly I prefer the simplicity of throwing a bag at the ground. If its raining or blowing a hoolie I'll wait until it's not.
At the minute hills are a bit of an issue, that will ease soon hopefully, although I have integrated trail riding into my training, in part to improve bike handling, in part to improve HAB ability. Might be down to my psychology, but I really really enjoy climbing, I think it's around 4000m which over that distance should be ok. I've lost 11kg which has helped. I may feel differently by the time Fealar Lodge is a thing.
A background of Fell Running, and plenty of XC running at the minute should help too. I think I'm more worried about my core and 2x15hr days on the bike, annoyingly I should be having 1:2:1 Pilates instruction but that's not happening at the minute.
The pacing, I'm pretty much lifting that from ultra distance multi day runs which translates to "this feels kind of effortless" at least whilst fresh. I'm guessing I will have a similar feed strategy too. Which for me involves a lot of "real" food consumed in small portions at least every 30 minutes. I'd take a handful of caffeine gels which I've found can bail me out of an energy deficit whilst other real food works its way in.
I guess I just need to keep putting the miles in, and start getting my head ready for when things arent going well and theres no one there to lift me up.
There is a plan to ride the Deeside Trail about 6 weeks before, and actually tour the whole route about 3 weeks before a proper bash. That should set me up ok.
Sounds like you'll ace it. You just need to find the perfect saddle, mine is the original SDG Bell-Air. Maybe order a few and try them out and return the ones that don't fit well.
I think ace’ing it might be a stretch, hopefully I’m doing enough ‘right’ things now so I don’t spend most of the ride thinking “this stopped being fun several hours ago” 😉
Saddles are still up for debate, I do find my WTB saddle comfy enough for 7-9 hours but shifting position back is a little awkward. Although if there’s any riding too exciting I’m planning on getting off before falling off. Something I’ve logged mentally and practised so it comes naturally and efficiently without feeling like I’m stalling. The bike will be set up for this too, small seat pack, and flat pedals.
Pondering drivetrain choice too, either XT 12 speed which is lighter with a slightly better spread or Deore 11 speed which doesn’t need to be as well set up, so in theory more reliable.
I’ll try and dig out that CGL thread.
Probably this thread https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/cairngorms-loop-300-group-start/
Sound ace Piemonster, and we'll prepared,I'm quite jealous. I've done most chunks of the CL and had plans last year, now this year to do the HT550 touring.
Now if only I can get my knee (partial replacement) to behave long enough I'll get to have some fun when I can escape this island. A decent ride Sunday had it blow up again.
In all seriousness I'm thinking I'm going to have to just be happy with shorter rides or get an e-bike 😢 Will try building up again once this settles though....
We all know training numbers don’t necessary equal race results but blimey I had a shock yesterday. In training - 10hrs a week - all power numbers are up across the board, and I’ve been doing repeated top end Z2/3 for 3hrs on the turbo no issues aerobically.
With nutrition, sleep, pre race prep and everything being the same as previous and good, I raced at Gorrick yesterday and was incredibly flat. No pace, power or speed although my HR was up at threshold / race pace. I feel battered today which is a sure sign of the effort made. No idea about that, I’d love to say it was first race issues, but that’s the same for all.
Have you been doing any race pace/above threshold efforts?
To be fair not many - about 6 sessions equally split between 2 x 5 mins and 4 x 1 mins during the last two weeks of taper - I rode a 1:40 Zwift race last weekend as a warm up. And my training has been about improving my engine and steady hill climb for Marathon rather that XC racing, so it kinda makes sense.
I am defiantly not at "Peak" from a training perspective, but it still shocked me how slow I felt. For reference, on pretty much the same course last August I was 7th. Cant vouch for the riders being the same though. I was about 3 mins per lap off of yesterdays 7th and 5 mins off the leaders.
Still, next two weeks is full of 5x5mins and sweet spot efforts so maybe it'll come to me by the next one on the 14th and more so for the final one on May 1st.
How's everyone getting on transferring their training to the great outdoors?
Didnthurt, gales, snow and a knackered knee means I'm not 😥🤬
How’s everyone getting on transferring their training to the great outdoors?
I has 2hrs of Z2 to do on Sunday. I went out on my XC race bike and enjoyed every minute of it. Same next weekend, and will be doing a few short intervals around the outside of Woburn Center Parcs on my Clockwork Evo during the taper week the week after 🙂
I did a 10 mile time trial this morning and it was a shock to the system to put it mildly - first of the season always is but this was easily the coldest test I've ever done, 2 degrees in a skin suit felt abs Baltic. Windy with some uncomfortable cross winds on a dual carriageway - never normally bothers me but I was on a new 90mm front wheel and it was iffy at times. And I missed my start.
Tried to put my back in to it but had nowhere near the focus you need to ride well in a TT, power was too up and down, position unsettled with the wind. Posted a middish 23 which is a forgettable effort but could have been worse given the circumstances. Back indoors for a bit before club ten season starts in a month.
Cheers for the updates. I was out yesterday for a 6+ hour zone 2 ride, the wind was hard work.
Not really tried intervals outside, not sure I'd be safe as I tend to push myself pretty hard on the trainer.
So I've been doing sweet-spot, shortish time trial and 2-6 hour zone 2 rides outdoors. Trying to stay away from what I used to do which was to ride as fast as I could for 2 hours (apparently not great for training).
Starting to feel more like my old self and finally seeing some sort of form returning. I'm looking forward to my rest week in a weeks time, this will be after 2x 4 weeks of structured training (mostly stuck to my plan).
So predictably I've come completely off the rails, it was always likely that injury would throw a spanner in the works however thankfully I would have been easing off the indoors stuff until autumn now anyway so have time to re-gain some consistency once bad backs and house moves are out of the way.
Interesting chat with my physio yesterday about breathing, I'd been told previously about the importance of meditative style nose breathing in relaxing sore muscles, especially in the lower back.
He went even further though and talked about training on the bike whilst only nose breathing. Talked about some (relatively) significant gains to be made just from learning to control your breathing and breathe in AND out through the nose. I tried it yesterday and it was quite an interesting session, if you can keep it under control you can get into a decent wee zone and it didn't seem to hold me back chasing a 10 minute segment.
For easier outdoor stuff I'll definitely continue practicing it. Anyone else do it?
https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/dont-be-a-mouth-breather-100-speedcraft-air/
We had a cross race at the weekend in the NW (rearranged) - really dry conditions relative to the usual, put 30psi in the back which is unheard of. Suffered with the lack of mud, not my cup of tea, but was fun to race cross in April.
Definitely noticing the absence of a bike commute for me this past year re injuries. My commute was kinda junk miles and didn't do a great deal for condition, but I think it really helped get some movement into the back and hips first thing. Suffering with man-at-desk ailments atm, groin and hip not very happy (although it's off the bike, not on it so much). Let the physio slide over winter and guess there's a price to be paid for that.
I struggle to appreciate the concept of 'junk miles' - is it not simply polarised training once you add a bit of high intensity.
I can see how increasing training load can tire you out though and commuting could present a high load.
How many hours/ miles to you all aim for each week?
I have recently upped my volume to 10-12 hours a week and I have more tiredness qand muscular soreness. Been doing it for a couple of months hoping to adapt.
I equate 'junk miles' with 'ineffecient miles' e.g. too easy to get any real fitness gains from, but too hard to do a quality 'hard' session the next day. Neither fish nor fowl basically.
Sadly this is exactly what most of my weekend riding becomes, brilliant rides usually exploring new roads or tracks, but impossible to keep intensity low enough that I can do a hard session the next day (or even the following day). So from a training perspective they are junk because I could have done two easy sessions and a high intensity session, but from a fun perspective they're not junk.
I'm pretty sure the old saying goes 'they're not junk miles if you enjoyed them' 😎
I equate ‘junk miles’ with ‘ineffecient miles’ e.g. too easy to get any real fitness gains from, but too hard to do a quality ‘hard’ session the next day. Neither fish nor fowl basically.
So pretty much what others might describe as "sweetpost" or threshold?
Ummmm... good point!
The distinction is clear enough in my head because I know exactly how I feel after a long gravel ride each weekend, I'm rinsed and can't do any proper sessions for a day or three afterwards. Whereas I can do a 3x15 sweetspot turbo session (and I usually overshoot sweetspot anyway) and usually recover more quickly, certainly ready for another turbo session within 48 hours.
Perhaps you're right, and I'm feeling so rinsed from my weekend rides because they're effectively 5hrs of sweetspot riding! So therefore the question is do you get more fitness gains out of 5hrs sweetspot vs. 5hrs zone 1/2 followed by a 1hr interval session on the turbo the next day?
Edit: I guess basically 'junk' is low Z3 whereas sweetspot is high Z3?
I'd say junk miles are those that don't fit into a training plan, i.e. there's no purpose to them. If you aren't on a training plan then you can't be doing junk miles!
I thought the idea of Sweetspot/tempo/threshold training was that it was for when you were time limited, i.e. maybe an hour or 90 mins tops. Once you go longer than that then you should be dropping the intensity.
Just been out for a couple of hours, average power of 58% FTP, normalised power 73% - the big difference being due to the 23mins of coasting, just no way to avoid it around here. Most of the time I spent in Z3 and above was also due to the hills - quite how you get up a 10% slope into a headwind and keep below 70%FTP is beyond me!
I should mention that I've switched to one of TR's experimental polarised training plans to see how they stack up. The above session is one of the Z1 (in the three zone model) rides. I'm intending to do them all outside. It is a bit disconcerting to be passed by someone in jeans when you are trying to keep the power within particular limits. On the other hand I'm completely fresh, my HR was only out of Z1 for 9 minutes. It'll be interesting to see how I feel at the end of it, the endurance stuff will be fine but some of the intervals look brutal. You do have to be pretty focused on the endurance rides and not chase other riders.
For the last two weeks I’ve been training outdoors on the MTB using RPE and HR together. Is it me or is it suddenly harder outdoors when your doing threshold and above?
and I’m feeling so rinsed from my weekend rides because they’re effectively 5hrs of sweetspot riding!
I would suggest thats well below sweetspot if you can sustain for 5 hours.
I would suggest thats well below sweetspot if you can sustain for 5 hours.
Yes, that was sort of the point I was coming too, that 'junk miles' aren't sweetspot, 'junk miles' are slightly harder than recovery but not proper sweetspot (which is why they are sustainable for longer). Hence less beneficial adaptation for the amount of recovery required.
I feel it needs to be said that I'm not writing off 'junk miles' as they tend also to be 'fun miles' or the rides I look forward to the most! 😎
"Sweetspot" is surpringly high as FTP%, last year while doing the Zwift TT Tune-Up workplan, the sweetspot sessions like https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/tt-tuneup/week-5-cruise-intervals-3 were a killer for me towards the end, but that might well be heavily influenced by the fact I rarely do 40min+ efforts near my limit.
I'm terrible at sweetspot anyway, partly down to my old dumb trainer, doing sweetspot power requires an uncomfortably low cadence in one gear, or a silly high cadence in the next gear lower. So I end up just pushing a higher power than necessary to sit at a happy cadence! Weird...
@13thfloormonk I doubt your outdoor rides will be at sweetspot - but just because you can't do intensity for 1-3 days after dosn't mean its a bad way to train in IMO. Proper intense workouts are once or twice a week for me (in my 50's) and I generally have a rest day before.
@Whitestone - report back on the polarised TR plan. As I said earlier I decided that the TR format did not suit me. I seem to be doing much better (in terms of training accomplished, not results) with XERT.
@Kryton57 - I have a similar issue. Find it hard to do threshold workouts outdoors, much easier for me to be focussed when on the trainer. Possibly on outdoor group rides I'm guilty of saving a bit. But all the same threshold feels less sustainable outdoors for some reason. Perhaps its the more variable conditions.
As for breathing, one of the best things that I learnt from a few years martial arts training is breathing properly, it really helped me with cycling too. But that was in through the nose and out through the mouth. Interesting article 👍
The rails have come off my training also. I was always planning on have a rest week but I ended up taking this a week earlier than planned due to a generally feeling of fatigue. I'm also skipping the rollers/turbo in favour of riding outdoors, this riding is ridden purely on feel. I'd like to think I'm mostly sitting on zone 2 with a few short sharp efforts thrown in for fun.
It's all riding though, so better than sitting watching the telly 🤷
I think you can have miles that are quality for one person and junk for another too which makes for a woolly definition.
My current focus is building towards two days with 15hrs riding each day. My long rides are probably junk to most XC racers. But not to me as I condition myself to eat, ride and drink towards that sort of duration. The physical fitness and speed are already there, the mental game, physical comfort on the saddle, bike handling and nutritional tactics are the parts that most need work.
There’s still hard fast efforts, but they are not the focus.
I have a similar issue. Find it hard to do threshold workouts outdoors, much easier for me to be focussed when on the trainer. Possibly on outdoor group rides I’m guilty of saving a bit. But all the same threshold feels less sustainable outdoors for some reason. Perhaps its the more variable conditions.
I've just raced and spent 2h 20m in my threshold HR zone. I'm tired...
@whitestone for the TR outside workouts which Garmin are you using?
I have an edge 520 and as I don't have a PM will be using RPE but I could do with a screen that tells me what power I should be aiming at for the interval but cant seem to do anything. How do you remember what the interval should be?
Having to put some notes on the stem seems to defeat the point as it basically just becomes a fancy stop watch then. Power at least gives me an indication of what I should be doing relative to RPE
After nine weeks of structured (less so the last couple of weeks as the weather has been too good to sit in the garage on the rollers/turbo) training, my legs have started to feel good 😁👌
Went for an hours spin last night and could feel my legs just wanting to go fast, it is a truly great feeling. I'm going to make a concerted effort this winter to try and keep my weight down and my fitness up as it's getting harder for me to regain fitness after each glutinous Christmas now I'm in my forties.
Happy days! Just need to lose 5-6kg now 😭
@robbo1234biking - I've a 520 as well. There's a TR article where they go through the fields to set up for outdoor workouts but obviously it's aimed at a power meter setup. I set up a separate activity profile for this. One of the screens is a Garmin default one that has a "thermometer" style scale - green in the middle, then orange then red. I don't remember setting that up so not sure where it came from. Main problem for me is that the text is so small I can't read it without my glasses.
If you select RPE rather than power for the outside workout you get a message popping up saying "ride at RPE 7 for ten minutes" or whatever at the start of each interval. Obviously you have to have some idea of what those levels feel like. I've an endurance ride on Thursday, I'll set it up for RPE not power and report back.
What's surprising is just how hard it is to keep the power down to low levels when you are doing one of the endurance workouts - anything over say a 5% grade and you are just crawling along!
Does riding out of the saddle help to keep the heart rate down when climbing on endurance rides?
Thanks Whitestone - will give it a go and see what happens. Only one 5 minute hill on the route so if the HR goes up a bit for that it isn't going to kill the purpose of the work.
@didnthurt for me personally my HR would increase if I were to stand as more of the body is being used not just the legs (more of the core and upper body becomes engaged).
Tried my first outdoor ride last night with TR. Worked well. I used RPE and kept the heart rate down for the most part. I did the flattest circular route I can locally and got 210m of climbing so didn't attack the hills but didn't worry about crawling up them. This had a couple of 20 seconds sprints in which I got done. I had to cycle the end of some of the intervals to do them on a sensible place on the road but just used the lap button for that. Overall it worked well for that type of workout.
Bagged my first Strava KOM (actually got 2 and a top 3) last night so my fitness must be on up. The trails being bone dry along with a lack of wind obviously wouldn't have hindered my efforts.
Frustrating days racing on Sunday. For perspective this is a slow course. The winner was around 20 minutes, someone who would be looking at 18 on a fast course.
I knew I wasn't in great form from the feelings I got through the week. I did 24 minutes on a standard road bike. Its left me feeling quite negative, it wasn't where I thought I would be and nowhere near where I wanted to be, about a minute off my PB and languishing in mid table mediocrity when I normally expect to be on the road podium (I won something like 7 events in 2019)
Preparation wasn't amazing. Hard ride on Thu, 10 mile hill walk the day before but that is fairly normal for me - I used to be able to double up CX races over a weekend and hold my own.
I followed the same pacing plan I have in the past. I know the course and the speed I need to do. So off the line I wound it up and settled down at the right pace. I've no power meter but my legs felt empty, it just felt like I couldn't press on and keep the speed up. My heart rate was where it would be from experience, threshold, 170ish bpm (max of 180ish).
So what's gone wrong. I'm fit, I've done mega miles since January but generally following the same patterns I always have. The only exception is racing days having not pinned a number on since the end of the 2019 CX season. My power on the turbo is better than in previous years and everything suggests I should be flying. I'm thinking one of two things. A fortnight ago I had a very heavy 10 days riding racking a strava RSS of close to 2000 when normally I would be 7-800. In the past on training camps, 2 weeks would normally see me peaking.
Would it really take that long to recover? There's a possibility of underlying illness but that seems unlikely given I'm still hardly seeing people outside a small group outside.
Diet has been well off. Felt tired, craved sugar and caffeine although I put this down in part to spending all day on Teams at home.
I think the answer is rest in any case. Work and personal stuff is going to conspire against my riding for the next two weeks so I will take it as a blessing. See what I feel like after that.
Not at your level but I had exactly the same experience at my first Gorrick (MTB) a few weeks ago. For me we've pinned it on not enough Z4/5 work as I struggle at Z5 anyway and everyone rode the 3hr race like it was a 1hr XCO.
A few sharper workouts and I was better at the last one although coming 17th/21 I matched my September '20 pace on the same course where I came 7th, so was just outgunned by the field.
I'm worried about falling into the trap of pushing on harder after a bad performance. Part of me thinks the answer is to double down and work on top end. But that's also the route to long term overtraining fatigue.
If it helps, I'm tired and have a lot of "work TSS" at the moment. There's another Garrick next weekend and I'm doing only the following after 2hrs MTB and 4hrs Road "free" this weekend:
Tonight - 35 mins including 8 x 40s Z5 at low cadence 50RPM
Wednesday - 30 mins including 1 x 5 mins
Thursday - a 35 min pre-race - 1 x 5 min at Z4, 2 x 1 min at Z5, the rest Z2 with an extended 15 min Z1 recovery
Friday - rest.
Saturday - Race.
I usually do the pre race the day before but am experimenting with an extended rest period to see if it helps.
At then of the day, I figure if I matched my prior performance early in this year and rode 3hrs at threshold, then thats likely all I've got - I can't help who else turns up on the day. I have all the Build to go for a June, July and August races.
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Racing has its ups & downs doesn't it? Having completed the three 3h Gorrick races always finishing at the back of category:
Round 1 - was a mess for me. I hadn't spent enough time on the MTB and was all over the shop, and was not "race fit". I suffered and came away disappointed.
Round 2 - did all the prior training on my MTB and was much better technically. but the course was tough on me - training for Marathons and long climbs it was 3hrs of short and punchy, I missed the cut off for the last lap by 3 mins, but thought I'd raced to my ability otherwise.
Round 2 - I felt so much at one with he bike I didn't even think about it. Got the final lap in, felt consistent throughout but still missing my top end and again thought I'd raced well otherwise.
Then this morning I compared my lap times for Saturdays race; If I'd have raced on Sunday, I would have been top 10 in every single category including 1.5hrs.
FFS! Turns out Saturday afternoon rounds are full of hitters.
Great experience though and good to be in the mix again. Back now to training for the Southern XC Marathon and Pivot 12hr.
Thought rd3's course was really nice. Lots of fun sections, decent climbs and places where you could actually drink/eat!
Came in about 30 secs after the cut, frustrating but....
FFS! Turns out Saturday afternoon rounds are full of hitters.
I did the same series Kryton & pretty much agree with all you say! Felt brutally fast for a 3hr race..
Yeah its a brutal course but Rd was better. Im slowly learning to judge my results by personal performance not places, so im happy with this.
The Southern xc Marathon will be interesting for me as my base endurance/muscular endurance is clearly up, so with lots of z3/4 and weekend marathon simulations coming up before topping of the top end prior to the races i think im a good place.
Just waiting for a Stages crank to arrive as clearly training on the MTB helps, and it'll be good for post race analysis.
But before all that, a kind of taper leading to an ftp test next week - eek!
Yep, Southern XC marathon for me too & then possibly exposure followed by definitely Torq in your sleep. Might do a Southern XC round to see what the setup is like. I've alyssa enjoyed the Gorrick but if it's always going to the same venue that might get a bit boring after a while..
I did my FTP last w/e - bleuurrgghhh....HATE THEM.
A question for you folks with a bit more training experience. I had a good few months of winter training on the turbo and maintained my ftp which usually falls before I start ‘proper’ training ie; more work and longer outdoor rides but....work has gone mad as we come out of lockdown so I’m arriving home totally knackered, add a 5 month old Kelpie dog thatcneeds walking and lots of attention and my riding has been about 1.5 hours per week since Mid March. I have done few sweet spot sessions at my ftp and although I managed them I’m concerned I’m going to dig a fatigue hole for myself. I’m 54y.o and have noticed I have to be careful with training load to avoid this. Should I retest ( I really hate ramp tests) or just knock my ftp down a couple of %. I’m was hoping for TR adaptive training beta which sounds like it will adjust things for me. Any thoughts gratefully received.....writing it down I kind of realise I know what to do but still interested in your thoughts. Thanks
I much prefer to do a 16Km+ Tempus Fugit TT on Zwift and use the final 20mins, rather than ramp test, which always give me inflated figures in comparison.
Sounds like you need to test again for accuracy - if you’re so inclined!
You can do a number of different tests. 1x20, 2x8, 4DP & of course 1x60. The gold standard is the 1x60 but I know relatively few who’ve ever even done it TBH.
Personally I think the best is 1x20, but I get similar numbers on a 2x8 - sometimes..
I’ve not Sufferfests 4DP but the theory makes sense.
Whichever you do be prepared for quite a lot of discomfort..
https://trainright.com/cts-field-test-why-eight-minutes-not-20/
My test week has start well with a 1 min test today, moving from a 477w to 508w PB - a decent improvement.
A 5 min test tomorrow, which is where my power curve goes a bit South, threshold power for me is bottom of the bell curve.
Looks like I'm going to be able to have a go at climbing the B4501 from Debigh to Llyn Brenig in a few weekend's time, which will easily be my biggest climb to date (~7 miles, ~1200 feet).
Only snag is that my first OxAZ jab on 12th April knocked me out for at least two weeks, not done an awful lot since and I'm now the heaviest I've been since Jan 2017 (~84Kg, +8 since Covid and +11 since Aug '17), when I started cycling to try and regain some fitness.
If it's not a headwind, I might stand half a chance of getting up it in ~35mins.
It just happens that it took me ~35mins to climb the Zwift Epic KOM plus the radio tower bonus climb this afternoon, pacing the main climb, to average ~270W (best for some months as I don't often attempt to find my limit beyond 30mins).
I managed 299W for the last 20mins of a Zwift TT this past week, which surprised me a bit, after how rough I felt after my jab.
For what little prep I can do over the next two weeks, would it be better to keep practicing my 35-40min pace, or would there be more value in doing multiple 4/8min VO2 max intervals at ~120% FTP?
@Kryton57 @mrlebowski I did the Gorricks too
Pity you were not doing the Day 1 AM Kryton, then we could've both been at the back together 🙂
I only managed to get in top 10 for round 3, I think a bunch of the better people were on holiday that week 🙂
Didn't have brutal bits as such but was relentless, more like doing a 3hr time trial than a traditional MTB endurance where there tend to be some long downhills.
I need to lose weight, and train..
Any other races coming up? around London? I only found out about Gorrick by chance.
Twisty there is the Beastway series (XCO). I'm not doing it but here:
Bit of a pig to get to if your aren't nearby as the North Circ can be slow, but the M25 approach via J26/Loughton is OK.