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TBH it's a bit of a moot point - these "zones" aren't on at X% and off at X.01%, the benefits start several percent below the lower limit and end several percent above the upper limit. The graphs should really show a set of ramps.
There's a thread on the TR forums about what constitutes a VO2max interval with one individual being adamant that you have to hold your HR at 90% or more for the entire workout including the recovery intervals!
I find there's a narrow range of HR values in going from sweet spot to VO2max so it's quite hard to use that to work in the right zone. Upper end of SS is 94% FTP, that's 86% MHR for me. top end of VO2max is 120% FTP that's 90% MHR, just 4% to cover 26% variation in power.
As a counter to all these percentages, can I add for anyone bamboozled by it all that this year I just did bikepacking weekends or long days out, with whole weeks off before and after. In September, with the prospect of a couple of cyclocross races, I spent a few evenings ragging around the woods with my mates.
Was flying come race day.
^ Yeah, I think pretty much the fittest I generally get is from a couple of blocks of 3-4 hard, long days, rest, then flying around the woods for fun on the SS. A proper plan over 6 mths does more but it's a lot of work for the gains.
But if FTP is ~90% max hr, you’re ‘supposed’ to be able to hold that for 60mins. So 60mins at 85% ‘should’ be doable.
Maybe a well trained rider could. I can (or could) keep a threshold HR for the 30(20) min test when I've had a bit of time getting used to the turbo sessions and my LTHR is approx 90% max. I don't know my real max, but my LTHR and the max I've ever hit a couple of times when I've tried a long time ago all line up. But 1hr at that level? No chance. FT HR is 4-5% below LT HR, and that would still be a horrible level to stay at for a full hour. Thankfully I've never wanted to train for the Hour or 25 mile TTs.
That table says sweetspot is ~85% of my max, at that HR it would be a hard 20-30 mins but doable a couple of times in a training ride.
I've done a few 25TTs on our 'sporting' course. No idea what my hr was and don't have a PM .My fastest on a road bike with clip-on bars was somewhere like 71mins (I'm no good!) and I cramped up so badly when I finished I struggled to get home, it was horrendous, I was in agony. I haven't done one since 😂
I keep rewarding my efforts with beer and chocolate. That's alright isn't it.......
If I was to get a HRM for riding out in the real world, is there a go to mid price option? Wahoo Tickr? Not bothered about data saving etc.
My hrm is just a CooSpo one. Ant+ and bluetooth works with zwift, strava and wahoo apps no issue for me. Look to be about £30, but pretty sure I only paid about £20.
Wahoo Tickr?
I've been using one for around 4 years. It's been fine. Happy with it.
I use a Wahoo Tickr armband. I really like it and it's much less hassle than a chest strap when you inevitably forget to put it on before getting all dressed up to go out.
On the previous page I posted a Dylan Johnson video where he lambasted Zwift's workouts. He's just posted one about TrainerRoad's plans:
Good vid whitestone - I have wondered what sort of absolute beast you would need to be to complete a high volume power build on TR. Think he's right that the intensity does seem excessive across the board on that platform.
They (TR) could actually rebut that pretty hard depending on what their use data looks like. Say the vast majority of people starting a high volume power plan do in fact complete it then that doesn't really speak to burn out and overreach. If the majority of people don't get past three weeks, on the other hand...
I had a look at the high volume plans at the start of lockdown and just couldn’t see that I would have the time to complete them even during lockdown! They don’t really account for having a job and family!
Platform that's built around indoor trainer workouts advocating for training that's suited to indoor training shocker.
Haha, I love Dylan Johnson "I like the Trainerroad podcasts... ...every so often I even learn something new" 😂
@Garry_lager - TR do state that most people would be best served by following the Low Volume plans, but these of course are effectively three intense sessions per week. They do monitor completion rates, the plans have changed over the years because of this.
I do the LV plans and then add endurance rides at the weekend thus making them essentially a polarised/pyramidal plan which is sort of what he advocates anyway. Yesterday I was out for 5hrs+ but it was Z2 power at most (my HR stayed in Z1 the entire time!).
I think there's a mixture of promotion and ego involved in all these plans (TR and elsewhere) - why spend money on a turbo trainer and on a training programme/plan if it isn't stressing you? Sitting at 75% of FTP for a couple of hours probably doesn't sell well.
@robbo1234biking - when I started on TR I looked at the various levels and just recoiled at the HV plans, they'd cripple me! At 61 I can do the work but need the recovery as well.
Looking at analysis of each of my week's training over the last six months the majority of them are classed as "Base"* with most of the rest being "Polarised" or "Pyramidal", only a couple in the last year have been "Threshold". So even when following a supposed "threshold" plan it rarely turns out that way.
* These are based on the relative proportions of each zone in the three zone model as mentioned in the video so equating with the 7 zone mode: Z1 = Z1 + Z2, Z2 = Z3 + Z4, Z3 = Z5+
Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?
This is something I've always experienced bar a single weekend while using power meters since Jan 2018, but besides the recenet STW MTB Series, I do 40min+ efforts quite infrequently. Away from the turbo, I usually like to chase my time/power numbers up the local cat 3/4 hills, which typically take approx 5-17mins to climb at full gas on a good day.
In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively... ~86.5%, which is hell of a gap from 95%. In theory I should be capable of ~291W for an hour, but 273W is my best from Jan 2020, before this post-Covid fatigue hell began.
Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?
Errrr, wibble, dunno.
I've never tested it but FTP isn't absolutely your "hour power" most say it's anywhere from 45-75mins depending on how well trained at doing such efforts you are.
Irrelevant side note; Dylan seems to like using clips from Francis Cade (UK youtuber and rider) videos in his videos. Noticed them in a few.
In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively…
I've been puzzling over this sort of stuff and think it is something to do with your anaerobic capacity, which will still kick in during a 20 minute effort but would be depleted before a 60 minute effort is over?
This is why the procedure for a 20 minute FTP test involves a 5 minute max effort to 'drain' the anaerobic contribution.
I noticed Trainerrroad or Trainingpeaks saying that because of this, they'll actually take 100% of the 20 minute power as being FTP if you have already drained the anaerobic tank with the 5 minute effort before hand.
If your anaerobic capacity was higher then perhaps it makes sense that your 60 minute power is lower than 95% of your 20 minute power.
On which note - how is everyone testing their FTP? Ramp tests? 20 minute test? 20 minute with 5 minute max effort first?
I’ll have to watch that Dylan video later. I did the high volume sweet spot plan and finished it at the end of Jan. It gets really tough at the end but I did see some decent gains going into the Short Power Build phase.
The first two weeks of the high volume short power build plan were pretty horrendous. Literally just scraping through the last intervals and then wondering how on earth I was gonna recover before the next intense workout. I came down with a really bad cold following week 2 and had a good 5 days off the bike completely. I’m just starting to get my legs moving again before thinking about picking up the plan again.
May go for something less intense given I can normally squeeze 15 hours a week or so in.
How did I miss this thread!!!
This is so what I've been looking for (although with a little bit of information overload).
Last year was the first year I actually had a plan (loose as it may have been) and I definitely saw a performance increase from myself. I usually just ride as often as available and as hard as I can sustain for the time I have.
So, this year I want to push on from where I left off last year BUT I've been struggling with motivation this year. So have only started putting in a concerted effort from February, this puts me at least a month behind others on here. I'm not going to let that worry me too much though.
It'll take me a while to get through all this but thanks to Whitestone for starting this thread.
Happy training to you all.
Any thoughts on Sufferfest on here?
I just got a KickR Core and think it seems pretty good.
Tried Zwift for a couple of goes but didn’t like the HCI of it.
I’m not into road riding or mega-data analysis – just have a ‘I’m I better than I was’ mindset.
Did the 4DP and had a couple of rides thereafter and the process seems improved as a result of this. Choosing ERG or level is the next conundrum BUT I found they have a chat of when to use what that covers this…….
Personally I prefer Sufferfest to Zwift - I'm not that bothered about racing, and I found the whole Zwift thing slightly "stupid" with its silly tron wheels, underwater tunnels and what have you, while supposedly pretending to simulate real life? Sufferfest also fits into my lifestyle nicely, with lots of shorter workouts that I can do whenever I want.
That said, I'm not 100% convinced it's a great fit for a structured workout plan - they do offer plans, but I get the feeling they're not a perfect match. The idea of recovery days etc., for example, don't really fit in with the idea of "suffering"...
I’ve been on a TR plan for few months - via plan builder. I generate a low or mid vol plan and generally use it as a rough guide - I’ll do one or two intensity sessions from it each week (Tues/ Thurs). The rest of the time I substitute outdoor rides - which are low intensity or a Zwift session that can be anything from tempo for 90 mins to 30 min crit to TTT. So in reality my training is probably more polarised than sweet spot. I’ve made some really big FTP gains recently. I have to say I think Dylan is right - too much intensity within the TR plans. If you listen to their podcasts they do champion the one or two hard session per week approach, just strange that the plans seem harder than this.
I think I also thrive more with one or two TR workouts per week max, and the rest of the time having a more social focus.
As I've already pointed out I'm new to structured training and smart trainers- I don't race, but want to get faster without feeling I should be trying to train every time I go out riding. I'm following an 8wk FTP builder plan from Training Peaks, via RGTcycling. The plan appears to be a polarised/pyramidal blend sort of deal. The week ahead will be week 3 and looks quite heavy, with 3 HIIT sessions and a Tempo/SS, but also 2 rest days and a Z1 easy ride:
Sunday - 2hr Zone 1 Endurance or social ride (got the first hour and a bit in outside today before the gale driven rain set in)
Monday - Rest
Tuesday - Pyramid intervals: 4x15 secs max, 3x1 min 125%, 2x5min 105%. 20 min warm up/10 cool down.
Wednesday - criss cross session - builds up in 2 min blocks from under to over FTP then gradually back down again.
Thursday - Zone 3 + FTP (tempo and S Spot?): 30 mins at 85% and 15 mins at 95%. Two lots with 5 min spin in the middle, giving 2 hr total.
Friday - rest
Saturday - Threshold efforts - intervals building from 1 x 5 mins at 98% to 6x 1 min at 120%. 70 mins total with WU and CD.
Sunday - 2 hr Zone 1/social spin.
The Thursday and Sunday sessions can easily become outdoor rides without any need for power meter or HRM. I've ordered a HRM though to get a better feel for zones etc. For anyone just trying out structured training this seems to give a lot of variety and has so far felt quite low stress/volume (which means it's probably about right - certainly not overtraining).
I suspect, once the weather improves and home schooling ends, I'll end up doing lots of Z1 riding outdoors, with shorter Z3 sessions once or twice a week indoors (so Polarised as the video above) and then go back to more variety in winter.
How steep are the hills you're caning @n0b0dy0ftheg0at in a 20 min effort? I've always found a big effort on a steepish pitch would give me v flattering power numbers and wouldn't be something to base training off of. Local to me the Manchester - Holmfirth rd (called Isle of Skye locally) is good for some shock and awe on the power meter.
It must be very biomechanically different in terms of fast / slow twitch if you compare that to riding a flat 25mile TT, say. That is about continual fast inputs to maintain the bike speed around 25mph+, whereas climbing just feels night and day different with a slow twitch grind.
This doesn't really answer your question as to why 20 / 60 is divergent for you on zwift, but you would rarely see a best 60 min in a zwift race as that would mean riding with no tactics at all. If you think 290 should be right for your ftp then rest up and hit the Alp full monty at that power and see what happens - it's quite easy to pace with the hairpinned sections giving an avg power for each one.
I’ve just ditched TR in favour of Zwift. TR is I think fantastic if you are really motivated, but you need to have a focus and with racing at any point this year seemingly dubious, I couldn’t see the point. I am loving Zwift at the moment, just going for the race yourself fit adage. Take today, hungover with little time, jumped on a twenty minute crit race and my legs are caning now!
I failed my TR workout today - too hard. Challenging my aerobic fitness. An hour 20 mins just under ftp (320-350w)
Looking at the week ahead there are so many invitations to do group rides and some races on Zwift and RGT that it seems like a better option to me than grinding out a TR plan.
My aim is to go sub 10 hour at the Dirty Reiver in Sept. but my strengths are short Crits.
TBH, 80mins at around FTP probably isn't the best training for Dirty Reiver, there are some long draggy climbs but being able to "plod" along at 75-80% of FTP will do you more good. I'd work out what RPE something like that is for you and head out for long rides at that intensity and augment them with a couple of short sharp HIIT interval sessions on the trainer to keep the top end.
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing and it seems to be working reasonably well. I’m getting stronger on virtual group rides and TTS. Just hope my trainer is accurate and not flattering me. I’m 86 kg so maintaining power over the event will help with the hills but I will not be able to race it, steady state and qualified efforts at the right time is what I’m aiming for.
@Garry_Lager The hills in Hampshire and West Sussex are often incredibly variable in gradient and that certainly applies to the longest and biggest climb variants that go up Bell Hill just north of Petersfield to the summit on Warren Lane (~3 miles, ~550+ foot climbing).
My memory failed me on it taking nearly 20mins to get up that climb full tilt, it was just over 15mins at an average of 240W, any FTP estimates I've obtained outdoors have been over much flatter terrain away from the hills with the exception of managing 300W for 20mins up Cheddar Gorge to Priddy Hill last September.
A vast majority of my estimates have come off 20min+ turbo sessions, whether that be races; TTs; freerides up virtual mountains. But these days especially, once an event goes beyond ~30mins, I have to dial things back to not blow up.
@n0b0dy0ftheg0at - that is a lovely climb that, especially up through the woods past steep.
@ferrals I agree, it's a nice climb even if the middle "Little Switzerland" section is a bit overhyped, sadly I only went up it once last year as 50+ mile rides from east Southampton were rare after Covid.
Looking forward to extending the climb from Sheet once the weather gets a lot more pleasant than of late!
Its 20 odd years since I rode there; I remember that the climb on the minor road from ashford past the island being a steep little start. I used to go up the road and then down offroad through the hangers, glorious when dry, less so in winter!
So I've finally decided on what direction I want to go in training wise for 2021. After doing some research I've put a 4 week training program together. I'm thinking of repeating this again the following four weeks but want to see how my body reacts first.
Mains goals are:
Increase my VO2 max ceiling and increase my FTP whilst also keeping my endurance gains I made last year.
Weekly plan is:
Monday
V02 turbo session for 40 mins
Tuesday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins
Wednesday
Strength and endurance work either on the turbo or hill reps or a single speed mountain bike ride (low cadence 45-65 rpm) for 40-90 mins
Thursday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins
Friday
Sweet spot on the turbo, start at 8 mins and build up to 20 mins efforts for 40 mins
Saturday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins
Sunday
Easier long distance ride for 2-3 hours
I'll be walking on each rest day as well for about an hour. Also once the gyms and pools open again I'll add in weights and swimming (like I did last year).
3 turbo sessions a week???? Madman 😀
I've decided my safe limit is two (not counting silly easy roller sessions which I'm rapidly going off anyway).
Good luck keeping the singlespeed rides in 'endurance' zone, although I'm definitely coming around to the idea of singlespeeding as bike-specific training, after each visit to the Bathgate Alps on the singlespeed I feel a very different sort of 'all-over' tired to even the hardest turbo session, I guess singlespeed on hills is very much like doing lower reps of bigger weights.
I'm new to this so I'll review it after the first 4 week block, wish me luck!
Strength and endurance work either on the turbo or hill reps or a single speed mountain bike
I think your Wednesday would be the one that could trip me up, all three of what you have listed could rapidly become quite hard sessions for me. Using Dylan Johnson's 10hr plan would put this day in the sort of tempo/sweetspot range which I've translated as 'easy sweetspots on the rollers' but I still think I'm going too hard.
I'd use your Wednesday to get out on the road bike and do some easy gradual climbs using the heart rate monitor to keep me well within sweetspot range. These usually work out to be quite good rides.
Oh also Mr Johnson also suggests squeezing the Monday/Wednesday sessions into Tuesday/Wednesday, gives you Monday off so you can go harder for your VO2 session
So, in an effort to take one thing of my mind I signed up to TR back in September. Based on my training background I went with the high volume full plan (based on peaking for 2021 races that continually shift). Volume wise I can manage it without too much trouble. What strikes me as weird are:
a) The Ramp test based FTP is lower than my 20min FTP results
b) Every Ramp test result since Sept has resulted in a drop in FTP.
A slight reduction I could accept based on periodisation. I've looked back at fatigue levels and see no indications of over training. I'm sticking with TR for now as it does still take my mind of planning my training, gives structure, etc. Plus I'm thinking of the bigger picture i.e. will my physiological profile be better come race day?
Q. Has any long term user of TR come across a similar efect?
Any good tips for loosing weight and keeping it off, especially for those with a sedentary job?
Never use to be a problem for me, I could put on a few kgs if I wasn't riding much, but i could easily loose it with regular riding. I know a major issue is my job. about 6 years ago I took a more office based job, so most of my time I'm sat on my backside. Since Covid-19 I've been home working and don't really leave the house for much (step count is really low) there are days I hardly leave the house except to walk the dog, but he's only small and getting on so doesn't walk very far.
Reducing food intake kind of helps at first, but then i always feel ran down, exhausted and prone to picking up a cold.
Currently over 2 stone heavier than my racing weight. My power numbers have never been the greatest, and the extra weight is making it even harder than it should be.
I know riding more will help, but don't have the greatest amount of spare time to do so. Usually turbo trainer 3 times during week and get out on bike on Saturday morning and the occasional Sunday
Cheers
A typical training week for me last year was:
Monday
Night 2 hour ride
Tuesday
Night 60 min gym session
Wednesday
Rest day
Thursday
Night Swim 60 mins
Friday
Rest day
Saturday
Morning 2 hours medium/hard effort cycle followed by a 60 easy cycle with the kids.
Sunday
Morning 60 minutes medium effort cycle or gym session. With a longer 3+ hour ride every 2 to 3 weeks.
But if the weather was decent and the evenings light then I have been known to cycle every night. Happy summer times seem like a long time ago now.
@sbtouring Alcohol is probably the only easy win in dieting, so knock the crazed lockdown booze sessions on the head if you can.
Other than that IDK - the how of dieting is never that interesting, it's the psychology of how we can flick the switch and commit to weight loss that is the big deal. Like it feels easy when you're on it, impossible when you are not. So I think it's more important to try and manouevre your mindset into this place then try and fight a diet if your head is not there at the moment. Don't know how you're dealing with lockdown but laying on weight loss goals might not be helpful if you're finding it tough in general.
If you're being literal saying racing weight then 1 stone over this in winter would be normal for an amateur, so it's more like you're 1 stone overweight than 2.
@ernie - when I was usign TR regualrly, I felt that the ramp test was quite inconsistant and much more reliant on mentality than the 8 minute test. I also found all their 'encouraging' text really annoying! On a dumb trainer I found that changes to cadence to match power messed me up too; probably not an issue if you have a smart trainer that is changing resistance for you.
I might try moving my Monday session to the Tuesday as 13thfloormonk recommends, not this week though as I don't want 2 days off the bike. Yesterday's exercise was sledging with the kids so not really the training I should be getting in 😋
As for the singlespeeding for strength and endurance. I've been riding around where I live for years so should be able to pick the hills and trails I want to do so not to overdo it. I'll have to see what that actually looks like though whilst using a heart rate monitor this week 😬.
I've changed my rims on my road bike so that can come out to play once the snow is away and temperature is consistently above 4 degrees. 🤞
Reducing food intake kind of helps at first, but then i always feel ran down, exhausted and prone to picking up a cold.
Currently over 2 stone heavier than my racing weight. My power numbers have never been the greatest, and the extra weight is making it even harder than it should be.
I know riding more will help, but don’t have the greatest amount of spare time to do so. Usually turbo trainer 3 times during week and get out on bike on Saturday morning and the occasional Sunday
You're doing plenty of exercise regardless of the sedentary job. I would advise having an honest look at your diet. Couple of beers a few nights a week, biscuits with your cuppa, friday night takeaway etc. It's easy to think you've got a decent diet until you realise how much surplus calories these bad habits add to it.
I really struggle resisting the cravings for chocolate or biscuits. I'm going to use lent to try and completely abstain for a while. Did the same with dry Jan (and haven't had a drop since).
Reducing food intake kind of helps at first, but then i always feel ran down, exhausted and prone to picking up a cold.
I struggle with the food intake, during the week I can keep it pretty honest, but annoyingly one bad day at the weekend or just having a miserable run at work makes it very easy to crumble and undo all the good work.
Dylan Johnson (sorry, I'm becoming a fan-boi) talks about what SORT of food you're eating, focus on low calorie density stuff e.g. fruit and veg. I've substituted chopped nuts in my morning Skyrr for chopped banana, same calories but more filling (nuts are shockingly calorific!).
Lunch is quite often some mini-Carrots, sugarsnap peas, maybe some chicken breast or even just a weight watchers chicken cup-a-soup. If I'm really going for it, I'll do courgetti-spaghetti instead of proper pasta, it gets less depressing the more often you have it, I can almost convince myself it's as good as the real thing now! Lots of salad is good, especially if you have it as a starter or chop boiled eggs over it.
Re: booze I'm just trimming it back, I'll mix 0.0% beers with 'real' beers, and buy mini bottles of red instead of full size bottles, I found I was always having a large glass of red on a Monday just to finish the bottle.
Am still struggling to get much below my normal weight of 85kg, I've been that weight for so long it feels like my body just doesn't want to budge!
Thanks for the replies guys.
I like a drink, but the drink doesn't really like me. So nowadays its maybe one beer or a small glass of red wine a week if that. Find alcohol really affects my sleep, so don't really bother these days. So can't really blame that.
Do like a cake and biscuit, but try not to go crazy. Maybe a food diary would help??
Hardest part is, I can loose 2 to 3kg but it takes several weeks to do that. Then something gets in way of exercise like injury, work or just general life and all the hard work is gone in a few days. Weight goes back up and usually more, constantly feels like 1 step forward and 2 back.
My Fitness Pal app is great. Just scan the barcode and add the portion of everything you/eat drink.
I don't bother trying to adjust calories to compensate for exercise etc, I just try to be mindful and keep an eye on the scales. I'm 2 weeks into a training plan but scales haven't moved so I clearly need to reduce my food to start moving some of this winter weight.
I used to do it every now and again to check I was on track. Now I've got a good idea of what my calorie intake on a standard day looks like I don't bother tracking.
Just tried that my fitness pal app. Maybe I do eat a bit more than I thought I did 😳 always thought I was pretty healthy and not eating too much.
Also need to cut down on the amount of coffee I drink. 2 sugars in each cup doesn't help! Only had 2 cups so far, but usually have a few more in the afternoon.
MyFitnessPal is the key for me, you really see where you are 'wasting' calories too. 2 packs of crisps that add up to 260cals could be 3 bananas or apples, a good omelette, or some cooked chicken and veg for example.
Also if you can look at less calorific versions of the foods you do like to eat ( maybe less fat/sugar) then psychologically you're eating what you like, not changing your whole eating preferences, to say quinoa and crudites! I can't tolerate sweeteners at all, so I've pretty much cult out any sweet stuff other than the odd treat or drink mix on a ride.
As said above substitute or add lower calorie bulky food to fill you up and give fibre to slow the stomach emptying.
You're always going to find cutting the calories will leave you a bit empty, but if you're feeling as bad as you suggest then maybe you're just cutting out too much?
If you're not too far from your 'ideal' weight you probably only want to be losing 1lb a week max, may be less as you get there (if we are actually talking racing weight bf levels). If like me you've got a long long way to go then a couple of pounds is fine initially, but will need to slow down as you approach your goal.
Another vote for MyFitnessPal here.
It can also show you where you have gaps in your calorie intake. For example, when I used to commute on the bike I never realised how many calories I was using so was under eating during the day which meant I was hungry in the evenings so eating before going to bed.
Also when I do endurance cycling 3-4+ hours I sometimes don't feel too hungry after. Which is when I should be getting the good food in.
Edit:- Apps like Strava, Garmin Connect and pacer auto synch to it so it means I sometimes get extra calories for dessert 😋
You’re always going to find cutting the calories will leave you a bit empty, but if you’re feeling as bad as you suggest then maybe you’re just cutting out too much?
I felt a bit manky for the first couple of weeks when I really started watching what I was eating, by which I mean cutting out the daily junk a bit, basically the body going cold turkey on vast amounts of sugars and processed carbs.
Sugar and processed carbs 🤤
Fair point on the cold turkey! I was thinking of the amount of coffee and sugar mentioned too.
I have a friend who's trying to kick his 2l a day diet coke habit and he said the first week was awful.
What training for a 40+ bloke who has a habit of obsessing over things and has zero patience 🤔
VO2 interval session tonight
Did this one:
As this one is only 20 minutes, I might do it tomorrow.
What training for a 40+ bloke who has a habit of obsessing over things and has zero patience 🤔
Free FTP Builder plan on RGT would be a good start. One of the flat courses, Canary Wharf or Borrego Springs is always free to ride for the intervals and the longer sustained efforts can be done up a hill, if you're planning training indoors.
Cheers boxelder, I'll take a look.
FYI if anyone is interested, Chris Kilmurray (coach to Reece Wilson, the Seagraves, Greg Callaghan etc) has answered a Q&A on his instagram story which I've found useful.
Keep in mind he coaches DH and enduro athletes, following key points I took from it.
- "What's best" is determined by goals, strengths, weaknesses. If you're not sure then a straight forward polarised approach is best.
- Virtual trainers are great for consistency and high intensity sessions but "be aware that as a mountain biker home trainer sessions won't prepare you for all of the pedalling demands of your discipline".
- Following the online training templates are better than nothing but not optimal
For turbo training
- Regular low intensity sessions (45 mins+, 4/10 effort). Progress time and frequency, not effort
- 1-2 high intensity sessions per week. Something like 20s hard, 40s spin x4-6. "Add reps to sets before adding more sets and aim to get to a point where you recover fast between max efforts and aren't afraid of multiple sets". Work up to 9-12 mins total time at high intensity.
- Warm up well. Drink. Be mindful of breathing and posture.
Gym work
- "Training off the bike should fill buckets your on bike training can't"
- Avoid things (e.g. instability or using bike parts) that claim to make an exercise more specific. In reality it reduces ability to overload the exercise to drive the adaptations you want.
@yanboss - is that study the same as the one that appeared on this forum a week or so ago asking for subjects to participate in an intervals study? Couldn't follow that one up as the link they provided didn't work. A good start!
@ferrals - the ramp test is weird and like you say probably more mental than physical, I've done maybe eight and only really felt I've done it properly twice. Go back a page or two and I noted that I had a 20% drop in FTP just because my head wasn't in it and I bailed way too early. I'm "meant" to have one today but I'm fairly certain that I've not changed since my last successful one so I'll be doing a VO2max workout instead. I've a few workouts that I know how I perform on and use to tweak my ramp test results anyway.
Always remember doing ramp tests in uni labs. Much easier to get to end and push yourself as much as possible as others were there watching, so always wanted to go as long as possible and do the best effort.
However when trying it on turbo by myself, I just find I bail out early. Get to a point and think whats the point of suffering so much. Very mentally difficult.
Think that is one of the reasons I have poor ftp results. Just don't seem to like suffering on turbo. But put me in a road race and I can go very deep suffering all race and then come out with a good result
@sbtouring - exactly same as me re the ramp test, I kind of get to a point that my brain says 'well your more or less there, may as well stop' and its really hard to push past that. It's why I'm going for the zwift races at the moment, I don't have motivation otherwise and I can start thinking of structured training in a couple of months when I've 'raced' myself out of a bit of a lockdown related funk and have an idea of whether there will be a cx season.
@whitestone, I've not done one ramp test when I haven't thought I could have maybe gone a bit harder - I normally end up editing my ftp by a few watts to compensate. Don't remember having that feeling when it was the 8 minute test!
@ferrals thats probably what I need to do to push myself. I have an old turbo with powermeter, but its not a smart one so can't get onto zwift (or similar). Been after one but getting hold of one is difficult and the price increases have put me off as I can't really justify buying one.
I don't have a fancy turbo, just a really old basic one, and just use my power meter for zwift. I can imagine the experiance is better if zwift is changing the resistance based on gradient, but in terms of a good blast, just trying to keep up on a crit style race is fun
Does anyone have any advice on fuelling for early morning rides?
I currently ride pretty much every day, straight out the door at 16:00 and back around 18:00 during the week.
Last year I mostly used to ride before work each day from 6:30 - 8:30 and eat breakfast when I got back and I’m thinking about doing the same again. The difference this time is that I’m following a training plan and a couple of these early morning rides are pretty intense interval sessions.
I’m planning on a having a quick espresso when I get up (to wake me up a bit....) and then take a carb heavy energy drink with me and maybe an emergency gel. Does this sound sufficient? I’ll then have a proper breakfast when I get back.
I’m worried I’ll suffer death by bonk...? I don’t fancy eating anything substantial before I go out as I won’t have time to digest it enough.
Any pros / cons to this approach?
Pack of clif bloks or similar with one between each interval? I use this for pre-breakfast workouts on the trainer so should also help you (and an emergency gel as well!)
I tend to go for a bowl of muesli just before bed then a coffee and a banana first thing as I head out
Changing tack slightly - here's a couple of videos from Trainerroad, they are starting a series chatting to various researchers and experts, firstly on the effect of heat on performance
If you don't want to watch the whole video (it's 1hr16mins long) there's a set of links in the expanded description to all the sub topics. The discussion about rectal probes at 26:30 is interesting!
Second video concerns recovery and carb intake, not listened to this one yet:
Without even watching the video I can state that starting to cook on the way up the Col D'Izoard in the Etape du Tour meant my power output just went down and down and down. Very difficult to hydrate in 35C+ heat! Also you can't really train for that in Scotland or you wouldn't want to anyway!
Snap!
I live in Scotland as well and really struggled climbing the Croix de fer on the lower slopes as it was 30+ degrees. As the heat subsided a bit as I climbed, I then had the altitude to deal with, again, hard to train for in the UK.
I find my turbo in the garage at the moment to be rather warm, not sure I'm going to like doing it in the summer. 😓
I did a few turbo sessions with a fleece on in the summer in preparation for a trip to Girona. I think it is accepted that you can train (a little bit) for heat adaptation.
@didnthurt - do you have decent fans as part of your setup? By decent I mean something that will blow medium sized towels around.
@13thfloormonk - part of the discussion concerns how long adaptation lasts, seems like you get 2 days' acclimatisation for every day training for it though I assume there's a minimum number of days. They talk of riders having done ten days' training and seeing the benefits up to twenty days later.
The other point they make is that there's a big difference between heat and humidity.
After the great melt up here in Shetland the shed is getting a bit warm even with door open and no top on. I was sweating last night with associated hr rise on an hours z2 session. 5c today!
I do have a big office fan I usually put on for intervals over Z2 as I seem to be particularly acclimated to the cold, probably partly due to my winter swimming as much as anything, but when the summer temperature get to 13-15c here it's top off weather. Bikepacking trips sooth to mainland Scotland in 2018 had me and my mate feeling like we were in the Sahara LOL!
@longdog - you need a fan like one of these - https://www.cleva-uk.com/products/vacmaster-air-mover
Ideally you should have this sort of airflow:
Cheers. Tbh mine does do when its on and the shed door is open. It's only arms reach away and directed to my torso. Had thought of cutting a couple of vents into the shed, to help through flow as the one window doesn't open
I'm too tight to buy one so will just either:
a. Embrace the heat
b. Strip to my pants
C. Ride outdoors
I'm totally new to this properly structured training with strength, recovery, HIIT and sweet spot sessions along with proper stretching/yoga post ride. I'm quite excited to see how I progress. I'm really feeling good in myself this week so fingers crossed it'll carry on.
I would love to have a proper coach along with lab work, nutritionist etc but the cost is way above what I can afford and what my meagre power output deserve.
Embracing the heat isn't a good idea, it makes bearable workouts unbearable and the ones that are normally on the limit of being unbearable completely impossible. After a bike and a turbo, a (good) fan is the no1 item for indoor training, I reckon my figures would be 15-20% lower if I didn't have the fan I linked to.
Proper coach? Yeah! I'd like one too but it would probably involve selling off body parts. There's a big thread on the TR forums about the Dylan Johnson video I posted above and the comparison between a generic plan and one provided by a coach is made. (It also discusses ad nauseum the merits or otherwise of polarised vs threshold/ss plans) The main thing you'll get from a coach is the conversation based on your feedback of the provided plan: a good coach will adjust things based on your strengths and weaknesses, speed up or slow down the progression, etc. With generic plans you've pretty much got to do that by yourself.
Basically, and to be brutally honest, most of us are trying to do this on the cheap!
Just measured my pedestal office fan that I'm 'looking after';16" 💪 and eyeing up the shed wall with the jig saw 😁
I usually keep zwift going through the summer to some degree so I might as well get prepared now.
I've largely managed without a fan (good thing too, it's tiny and the accumulated grime on the blades is probably slowing it down a fair bit) but I do my turbo sessions just inside the garage with the door wide open. Not unusual to be in all my best summer riding gear but with thick merino socks and gloves!
Felt great on a completely unstructured ride outdoors this evening, had been pretty low all week with some low grade back pain which I couldn't decide if I should ride through or just cosset.
In the end I took a couple of doses Iburprofen + paracetemol to take my mind off the back pain and then had a great ride, got quite a few PRs on punchy wee climbs despite being on the winter bike. Might just have been the extra slice of cake I had before going out, or the fact I'd left the water bottle at home...
What is the consensus on Ibuprofen vs. training? I'd read and been told that it would negate the benefits and adaptations of a good session, which has been as good a reason as any for me to wean myself off painkillers, but then if it snaps me out of a chronic-back-pain funk then overall there has to be a benefit...
Vitamin I during training is a no no really from everything I've read and heard. Your body/kidneys are already under stress when doing endurance work (think rhabdo) and it just puts more stress on them. Apparently patches or gels are best applied directly to the area of issue.