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I did a TR workout in zwift today and it went well up to a point - TR on my phone, controlling the trainer bluetooth in erg mode, and zwift using ant - left the trainer control blank in the pairing screen as you're directed to do.
I went up the epic KOM, though, which might not have been the best choice as when I turned round at the top of the radio tower the descent was dead hard! Some combination of erg mode, my bike having no low gears, and / or trainer difficulty (I usually have it quite low, 25% I think). But in the middle of a sweet spot interval it got way harder to keep power than when I was climbing.
Might be better to stick to flatter routes.
Sounds like something went wrong with the pairing there Garry. I have done kids of workouts like that and the route doesn’t matter as TR controls the erg mode and shouldn’t be affected by gradient at all ok Zwift. I used to select the hilly routes on purpose to gain elevation towards the tron bike.
Inspired by this thread I did an over/under workout on BKool, which I'm guessing is similar to Trainer Road as it's a series of coloured blocks moving slowly (oh so slowly!) across the screen. A bit of Spotify helped, but it's still pretty dull. I'm debating whether or not to sign back up to Sufferfest, but I got a very cheap yearly deal on BKool through my club and it's all paid for up until Spring...
@whitestone , well I can't see me doing 10hour z2 on the turbo, plus one or two top end interval sessions. It's not so hard to get longer hours in out side in better weather, but I'm just not that committed to 2-3 hours turbo after work and quite like my family 😁
For me I think there's a benefit in whatever z2 I can do for health/exercise reasons regardless of whether it's enough to continue to force further adaptation. I guess like was mentioned for mitochondrial and heart health like with MAF ideas for running.
I think that's why Sweet Spot oriented training took off - most of the adaptations without the huge time commitment. Like you I find long turbo sessions, particularly the "boring" Z2 ones, pretty hard work mentally. This is the description from TR about their traditional base plan:
As its name implies, the Traditional block takes the old-fashioned approach to base training. It requires a large time commitment to give you significant gains. Unless you have at least 10 hours/week to train, we do not recommend the long, low-intensity Traditional approach.
This block is primarily geared toward Grand Tour athletes or those recovering from an injury who want to avoid high-intensity intervals.
That last line is probably key. You have to be pretty focussed and committed to spend that amount of time training and for most of us, even in lockdown and if we were furloughed, it just isn't practical.
The TR Sweet Spot approach isn't unique to them, Chris Carmichael's "The Time Crunched Cyclist" from 2012 takes a 6hr per week approach to training and is also biased towards Sweet Spot with over-under workouts and VO2max intervals. Incidentally Chris Carmichael is the 'C' in CTS, the company that Dylan Johnson coaches for.
On that subject there's a big thread on the TR forums discussing Dylan Johnson's comparison of Polarised vs Sweet Spot. Lots of geeky stuff but one point being made is that lots of training at the Z2/3 (power) boundary improves lactate clearance so helps with sprints or higher intensity efforts. Another recurring theme is consistency - for most of us the actual strategy we follow doesn't really matter so long as it encourages you to train consistently.
I currently do just 3.5hrs/wk over three workouts on the turbo. Even that small amount per week over the course of a year (admittedly a bit intermittent through the summer) gave me a 13% increase in FTP and that was from a decent base. Allow half an hour for preparation and showering after each workout and that's 5hrs/week.
For me that's probably the absolute minimum to see improvement, i.e. my MED or Minimal Effective Dose. I'm not totally sure what my MRD or Maximum Recoverable Dose is, partly because there's also just riding involved as well which adds to TSS, but if we were in a full lockdown I reckon I could do TR's Mid Volume plans which are five workouts amounting to 5.5 - 6.5hrs per week. I'd probably have to go from a 3:1 work/recovery week ratio to 2:1 to make sure I didn't overtrain.
I'm bouncing off the walls at the moment as I actually have the means and the roads/trails around me to probably get in a good volume of riding, even at this time of year (a Christmas hamper of Stolen Goat winter riding gear helps a lot).
Problem is I think I've given myself some sort of 'nodule' under one of my sit-bones from using aggressive short nose saddles too much, so ironically the only riding I can really do is short hard sessions on the turbo, at least the pressure through the pedals takes pressure off the sit-bones! I've given myself an arbitrary limit of 4hrs a week to give the 'nodule' a chance to recover.
It's weird how winter weather actually makes me WANT to get out and do long slow Z2 miles, I think there's a perverse joy in being out in foul weather but wearing all the best gear, you form your own little microclimate staring out through fogged glasses at the weather happening around you.
I definitely feel best for lots of long slow miles, recuperating from back surgery last year required a 'little and often' approach, and all at Z2 to begin with, which became a really useful training tool in its own right, getting me out for little loops every morning. I could never do base on the turbo though, long sweetspot sessions are the longest I can tolerate.
Cheers Whitestone. I'm currently about 6 hours a week on the gravel grinder program. Often a mix of zones but largely Z2 & 3, with some threshold and Vo2 max intervals, but none of the work above tempo is very sustained really. Plus similar hours walking (work and pleasure) and short amounts of swimming (skins in the sea at 60N limits that!).
My Z2 free rides in GG do tend to be right at the top of my Z2 hr, 135-140bpm.
Interesting article here, nothing new really but a useful read.
https://road.cc/content/feature/what-ftp-7-key-facts-about-major-training-metric-268471
Cheers, interesting to note from that article that they say if your FTP is a low % of MAP then you 're better training medium intensity to up your FTP, so SS. Which would be me as my actual FTP is lower than from ramp test derived FTP
If it's a high % better training vo2 to up it.
Unless I'm reading that wrong.
That was the bit that caught my attention.
I don't really know my FTP as a percentage of my MAP, but I did take away from that the reasons why you might want to train one then the other, e.g. the earlier discussion about whether to train short intervals or long intervals.
I took it that training short, high intensity intervals raises MAP, which then gives you more room to raise your FTP without having to spend as much time close to MAP.
This suits me, I was going to gradually move from short/high intensity to longer intensity before moving back outdoors full time, but I guess I've got time to finish a 4 week block of short/high intensity, test FTP again, move towards slightly longer intervals for 4 weeks, revisit short/high intensity intervals for 4 weeks, then come end of March time start to move the sessions outdoors (I've got plenty of 3-5 minute long climbs around here to play with).
I haven't read all the way through this thread yet (really should be doing coursework right now), but there's lots of interesting things to get stuck in to once I have the time!
Something some of you might be interested in:
I'll be recruiting for my final year project study fairly soon - the effect of differing work interval durations on training adaptations. It's essentially a comparison of two different HIIT based training interventions, both following a 2:1 work:recovery ratio (60:30 & 300:150). It's not passed the final ethics check yet, but the protocol won't be changing.
It's all being done remotely, so all you'd need is some way of training indoors with direct power measurement (PM and 'dumb' trainer, smart trainer w/ direct power measurement, wattbike etc.).
We're looking for people with a history of endurance activity (>5 hours per week ish), who aren't currently engaged in an interval training programme (>1 session per week). It's an 8 week intervention with testing either side (similar to the 4dp protocol mentioned above). You'll get fully personalised training zones, some training recommendations, and there'll be a prize draw for bike shop vouchers among those who finish the study.
If this sounds like something you'd be interested in, drop me a message on here and I'll send over the full participant information/recruitment documents once the ethics committee are finished with them.
The highest minute of average power in the Ramp Test is your MAP. Some programs adjust for sudden bursts that attempt to game the test. The assumption is then that your FTP is 75% of that final minute's average.
Thus the assumption is that most people have a 20% window between FTP & MAP. A high FTP means that window is smaller so you move from threshold to VO2max work sooner and vice versa. I think that's what they are getting at.
I've found that subsequent workouts after the Ramp Test are slightly easy by a couple of percent, i.e. my FTP is a high percentage of FTP, so I've upped my FTP maybe 2 or 3% by hand. This last round of workouts it's been a mix of workouts that genuinely feel hard in the way that others have described while others have felt easy(ish) so I've left it as is.
From that article it looks like I should focus on VO2max work. I noted in an earlier post that I was going to add a second VO2max each week so maybe my instinct was right, or at least backed up by current thinking.
Great workout this afternoon, possibly because of a perfectly timed pasta lunch three hours beforehand and mid-afternoon Jaffa cake binge... Even if Strava calorie count is correct I don't think I'll be in deficit today...
If you look closely you can see the last few intervals start creeping up in pace, but that also the recoveries are getting deeper and deeper lol. Happy I managed 3x10 though, I'm getting closer to the 'big boy' 3x13 workout that wattkg.com suggests.
Possible beasting in the real world on Sunday with a buddy who seems to be a full time Zwift time trialist, then an easy week before an FTP test on Friday/Saturday perhaps. It got me thinking though, how much can you game an FTP test? I was taught in the week prior to a CX race to largely take it easy, but then do some short hard intervals the day before to get some endorphins in the legs and to take the edge off the pain of racing. Could I do the same for an FTP test, effectively 'tapering' for it? 😀
You are supposed to do an FTP test fresh, so tapering for it isn't daft 🤪 You'll obviously not perform your best if your going to it fatigued and sore, save that for how you feel afterwards 😁
On the Sufferfest platform...
For a ramp test I don't need a full taper - just 1 or 2 days rest. For the full FTP test I do need a good weeks taper, including an 'openers' style workout the day before.
And why would you game an FTP test to make your workouts harder, shouldn't you be sandbagging it 🙂
I've a ramp test on Monday (or Tuesday, depending on external factors), for the last one I did the LSCT warmup - this is a short 20min test that works out your Heart Recovery Rate - but I've found I just need something as an opener before I do the test itself. I don't think it makes the test any easier just lets me perform it better - if that makes any sense. I wouldn't be doing a VO2max workout in the day or two beforehand though!
So long as you do the same preparation each time then it shouldn't really matter what your lead in is.
Slight digression but probably still relevant to the thread - does anyone run a softer saddle for turbo duties?
Bontrager did a Q&A on the Bikerumor site and suggested running a softer saddle due to how static the position is etc.
I actually run quite a racey saddle on the turbo just because it's my 'best' bike I use, but I'm actually wondering if it's the turbo sessions with a hard saddle that are giving me saddle issues (and also I typically wear my thinnest shorts since they're only short sessions).
Will swap in a Fabric Line instead of my Prologo Scratch, see if it makes a difference, I just hate swapping saddles since I thought I had my positions dialled!
On the Sufferfest platform…
For a ramp test I don’t need a full taper – just 1 or 2 days rest. For the full FTP test I do need a good weeks taper, including an ‘openers’ style workout the day before.
And why would you game an FTP test to make your workouts harder, shouldn’t you be sandbagging it
GVA says report to flogging station #3.
The route for the Greatest Grand Tour of a Mythical Nation in the World was announced yesterday. It's only 7 days this year as they're being considerate about fatigue and associated weakening of your immune systems. With lockdown I'm actually going to be able to do it at the right time this year (usually away with the family on half term break). Anyone else doing it?
First day is a killer (30 minute MAP workout + 1h46 of sweetspot at low cadence). Day 2 is a workout I've never managed to finish at 100% - an hour long MAP workout. It goes down(up)hill from there...
@13thfloormonk - it's something I do notice, 45mins or so into a workout and I need to start standing for a few seconds now and again just to relieve tension/soreness/niggles. Hadn't considered a softer saddle. You could get another seat post, fit it to that then you don't have to worry about messing the position of your current saddle - a bit of tape on the post just above the clamp and you can get the exact position back.
I'd pushed today's workout outdoors. Just got back from a 3hr fat bike ride in the snow that I thought was "hard", i.e. tempo and above, looked at my data: no power data on the fat bike but just 40 seconds in HR Z3! The outdoor workout actually called for 2hrs at RPE6 but conditions (8-10cm of soft snow on unfrozen and often boggy ground) meant I was probably RPE7 for much of the three hours.
@13thfloormonk – it’s something I do notice, 45mins or so into a workout and I need to start standing for a few seconds now and again just to relieve tension/soreness/niggles. Hadn’t considered a softer saddle. You could get another seat post, fit it to that then you don’t have to worry about messing the position of your current saddle – a bit of tape on the post just above the clamp and you can get the exact position back.
Yeah, I'm moaning about nothing really, the repositioning takes no time and at least I've had plenty of practice.
Will swap turbo saddle and outdoor saddles, need to test the turbo saddle outdoors anyway as it will be my big-week-in-the-Pyrenees saddle hopefully. If a Fabric Line isn't soft enough it's an excuse to try that Prologo Scratch AGX saddle I keep seeing, same design as the Prologo Scratch on the turbo bike but extra padding for 'gravel'.
Hours at Zone 2/3 boundary on your HR monitor will be the best predictor. Forget all those HIIT workouts everyone likes for time-crunched whatever. Sorry there are no shortcuts here (from a 12hr TT specialist).
Does cadence come into it at all or is it purely about staying in the right HR zone regardless of anything else?
Stick in the zone and self-select cadence.
Z2/3 (HR not power) boundary is a bit harder than most people think. I was out for a 2hr45min fat bike ride in the snow this morning and thought it was "hard" but looking at my HR data I had this:
Z1 - 2h21m
Z2 - 22m31s
Z3 - 56s
OK the Z1 will have included the descents and stops but I was borderline sweating (not good in -4C and below) so I wouldn't have been going any harder regardless.
Cheers @whitstone. 3 hour ride today with the whole thing in Z2 give or take. That included ploughing through some fairly deep snow on a gravel bike! I need to try a fat bike!
Hmm, that was interesting.
Went for a "socially distanced, local, my house is over there and much less than seven miles away officer" ride on the hardtail. i.e. a quick loop around the village. 18km with 480m of climbing. 28 mins was mid HRZ2 and above with 5 mins in Z4. Here's a grab of the HR distribution:
It actually felt pretty easy, I held back on the initial climb (it's 200m of altitude gain) only just getting into Z3 on the 20% at the end, then thought I'd push it.
My guess at the pace was tempo but with so much up and down it's not easy to keep the pressure on. Strava's guess at my average power was 226W which smack in the middle of my Z3 or tempo band. A couple of segments (generally rolling and of reasonable length) it guessed I was at threshold or thereabouts and that also felt a reasonable assessment in terms of RPE - that "I think I can hold this for a while" sort of feeling.
just about all my riding is currently on zwift. and for me that means racing or hanging on in group rides (im a tail ender cat B) or some sort of workout. So im always right on my limit and its all high intensity (which i really enjoy). no easy rides. 4 or 5 days a week. as a result im constantly tired. im guessing this is not sustainable. but whats the best way forward...an easy week every now and then, or more rest days or both?
Both!
A lot does depend on what you are used to but even pros on the grand tours don't do daily hammerfests and much of their time is spent at relatively low intensity in the peloton.
A couple of days a week of high intensity would be most people's sustainable limit, you'll need the other days to properly recover. An easy week, no intensity, every fourth week or so, maybe every third if you are older, but certainly no more than five hard weeks before a recovery week. Sometimes you'll see what is often referred to as "block periodisation" where entire weeks are high intensity workouts but these are short term blocks, rarely more than a couple of weeks.
That tiredness can descend into overtraining - my results aren't what they should be so I'll train more, etc. - which can take months or even years to recover from. Training is as much about recognising symptoms like that and pulling back from the edge. Here's a couple of TrainerRoad podcasts on the subject:
I'm sure that there's more both from TR and other coaches.
Oof, yikes, yeah that sounds like a recipe for burnout!
I'm not versed in more advanced training strategies, but as I understand it there are two common approaches, polarized or sweetspot.
Polarized would mean 20% of the week you go hard (e.g. races) and 80% super easy (recovery). I think if you already have a good base fitness you can omit some of the easy stuff, but still not do 4 or 5 back to back high intensity sessions.
'Sweetspot' basically means going as hard as you can without ever going 'high intensity' (e.g. sitting just below your FTP) and in theory you could do multiple sessions a week, but you would be nowhere near your limit so wouldn't be very competitive at races!
Well this is a handily timed thread. I’m just debating sweet spot versus polarised.
Someone is talking about training for 300km rides too which is exactly what I’m trying for.
Some good discussion in the comments too.
so is sweetspot a sort of quick hack for a long ride. Ie you dont have to sit for hours going easy, instead you hack it with a shorter sweetspot ride?
-edit - just watched those videos. interesting stuff. although i really dont fancy lots of zone 1 riding.
I've been following a big thread about the Dylan Johnson video, some passionate debate (think 26" vs 29" wheels on here but worse) plus there's some confusion about what the main proponents (like Seiler) actually said at the time and what they say now. AAAGH!
I think polarised works best when you have lots of time available to train whereas sweet spot is better for time crunched riders (i.e. The Time Crunched Cyclist by Carmichael).
It's rare/unusual for training plans to be entirely one or the other, usually the mix between low, medium and high intensities varies as you progress. For instance the phases in a typical TR plan go:
20% endurance, 60% SS, 20% threshold;
20% endurance, 20% SS, 40% threshold, 20% VO2max;
20% endurance, 20% SS, 40% threshold, 40% VO2max;
That's on 5 rides with 6-7hrs per week and for something like CX racing. The long distance plans might get to 20% VO2max near the end, most of the work is SS and threshold.
For long rides just being out on the bike for as long as possible is probably as good as anything, but not easy at the moment. Combine that with some higher intensity, maybe only as high as threshold which if you've never ridden at that level before for any length of time is surprisingly hard.
@simster - the point about sweet spot, which is more of a concept than an actual zone, is that it's tough enough to force adaptations in a short period but not tough enough that you couldn't do several back to back days of such workouts. It's sort of a short cut but ultimately the longer you take to build fitness the longer it sticks around which is why true HIIT is only really done in the weeks leading up to an event/race, you just can't maintain it indefinitely.
That's how I think of it, typically if time doesn't allow for 3hrs outdoors I'd try 3x15 or 3x20 sweetspot on the rollers.
@whitestone appreciated. those TR type plans better suit my schedule and head (id get bored doing lots of endurance).
The long distance plans might get to 20% VO2max near the end, most of the work is SS and threshold.
This is what I'm still hugely confused about, periodised vs. reverse periodised.
My event is 5 long days of climbing at the end of July. I've just finished a 4 week block of VO2 max and threshold intervals. Am thinking I'll do one more block to 'raise the ceiling' but then phase back in SS and threshold stuff, building volume and lowering intensity as the event approaches. Ideally I'll be mainly outdoors by March/April anyway.
Ultimately my goal when we can, and when I'm physically able again is audax type rides (2-300km, maybe even try a 400) and bike packing/tours of up to a week. Not racing at all.
Is there a 'prescription' that I can work around for building up for that largely on the turbo at present?
I know the rides themselves will be largely z2/3 of necessity ( other than some hills) but for turbo work am I best building up the number and length sets of SS intervals for more manageable time on there?
I'm generally ok doing up to 2hrs z2/3 on the turbo once or twice a week, and sometimes have done 3 sets of 2hours in a day on a miserable weekend with a short full break between them.
I need to avoid threshold and over work as a rule, but short blats I've done seem to be OK heart wise judging by bits I've done on the gravel grinder program on zwift, but they are only upto a few mins at threshold, or less at vo2 max powers.
With better weather and more idea how I'm coping I'll be doing at least one long extending ride outside on a weekend
Ta
I think Sweet Spot is probably ideal for balancing intensity and boredom. It's more about extending your Time To Exhaustion (TTE).
There's a Sweet Spot progression "plan"
* 9-minute warmup: 2min at 50%, 2min at 70%, 2min at 90%, 3min at 50%.
* 5-minute cooldown, starts at 50% and ramps down.
* 3-minute rests between work intervals.
* All work intervals are at 90% of FTP.
Start with 10min intervals, 2 or 3 depending on preference. Then build up the total time in zone and/or reduce rests so something like:
3 x 10
3 x 12
2 x 15
4 x 10
And so on.
You can also add a bit of variety by doing "hard starts" to the intervals so do the first 30seconds at 150% of FTP or thereabouts, then drop back to SS. These stress or flood the legs then you basically have to hang on! Think of them as short sharp climbs followed by a long drag.
Cheers 👍
I think Sweet Spot is probably ideal for balancing intensity and boredom.
How about if a chunk of your easy Polarised training efforts is done via a second activity?
e.g. Running*, in my case with the dog who is one of life’s long distance plodders
*in practice I mean jogging. The dog really does like to take in the experience at a relaxed pace.
This may be a little OT.
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
Ive a reasonable idea, but it can’t hurt to read up.
How about if a chunk of your easy Polarised training efforts is done via a second activity?
I kind of treat running (or like you, jogging/walk-running) as having no overlap with cycling, so I'll do it on recovery days/non-bike days.
By that logic, I wonder if gentle running will really create the same adaptations you're looking to achieve from gentle riding? Apparently lots of gentle riding will increase 'mitochondrial density'. I've not read up on the biology but I understand this is part of the mechanism which converts fuel into energy within the muscle, and thus increases power.
If running uses different muscles then I guess you wouldn't be achieving these adaptations in the muscles you want to use when cycling?
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
I think the answer is - go into massive calorie deficit, come home skinny and hawt 😎 Last time I saw my abs was at the end of 10 days self supported bikepacking with minimal re-supply...
@13thfloormonk - Rd 3 of Cyclocross national trophy 21 / 22 is set for Falkirk. Epic power build starts now?
Niiiiice!
Return from Pyrenees end of July all skinny and tanned, 1 month strength training, 6 weeks over-unders and 30/15s, 1 week taper, RESULTS 😀
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
Ive a reasonable idea, but it can’t hurt to read up.
The old military adage was 1kg/man/day for food and fuel. That was for sustained campaigns and for keeping fully nourished. If you were out for say five days between resupply then you could get away with less if you accepted some fat and possibly muscle loss.
Carbs and protein are roughly 4kcal/g, fat is 9kcal/g. With most "real" foods you will struggle to get over 5kcal/g so you can work out what sort of weight is required. Those figures assume the food is in edible state, i.e. not dehydrated - in that case you need to add the weight of the fuel to rehydrate. Some people go keto but like many things it has its negatives as well as its positives, i.e. it's good for long, slow distance, not so for short hard efforts.
Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it's just quicker and more convenient with boiling water. Some dried foods do require hot/boiling water to initiate the process. Worth experimenting with rehydrating overnight with "cold" water. That might mean having your main meal as breakfast rather than at night.
High fat foods: worth eating these at night since the body uses energy, and therefore warms up, to digest them. That means you feel warmer in your sleeping bag 👍
Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it’s just quicker and more convenient with boiling water.
Very true, I could stretch a small gas cannister much further once I realised you didn't need to keep the pasta water boiling once you had added the pasta, just return it to the boil then turn off heat. Pasta cooked in virtually the same amount of time but I saved about 8 minutes gas use each time.
Well the Ramp Test today went ...
Not well 😧
Bailed at 16m30. The break even point, i.e. the point at which you'd get your current FTP is 19m30. It's a 12% decrease! Not too sure why - maybe the walling I did on Monday was still in my legs.
Going to keep my current FTP as the workouts feel "right" in intensity.
I guess sometimes you just have a bad day, slept bad, are fatigued,fueled bad, got c19. But at least if your current work outs seem the right level for you that's something.
I did a Ramp Test on Tuesday, neither feeling fresh nor really in the mood (I’m not really used to ‘undertake training session x on day y’)
It also didn’t go well, I guess Trainerroad kinda assume some kind of freshness on day 1 of a training plan rather than being 3 months into progressively increased loads.
The other part being not having done that style of workout for some time I wasn’t really tuned in to the experience. I certainly shouldn’t have been fresh enough afterwards to take the dog out for an (admittedly easy paced) 90 minute run.
Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.
Cheers for the video link @YoKaiser
Some quite informative videos on that channel. I think with the volumes I’m aiming for and my experiences with running do lead me towards Polarised rather than Sweet Spot, I’ve tried a Sweet Spot with running in the past, although I didn’t realise at the time, and it always resulted in burning out. What did work was lots of easy runs with less frequent fast runs.
That said, I could just be going with what I know and not because it’s right. The total duration will be the same as those running days, and running breaks you down a lot quicker than cycling.
Cheers for the responses on the food front as well.
@piemonster I'm not a runner, knee replacement.saw to that, but from what I understand SS and running aren't a good thing at all.
SS is manageable for cycling as there isn't the shock and load on your body of faster running. It's just so much harder and unsustainable with running and you'll get injured or burn out sooner rather than later. Polarised is best for running.
With cycling you will get the overall fatigue if your volume and intensity is too high, but with running body parts will break. There's a recent thread on Slowtwitch triathlon forum about it. Probably older ones too.
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months
Not riding, but there's loads of info out there about nutrition for the Marathon des Sables, which is a multiday self-supported desert race. Here's a commercial link I found from a quick Google, there are loads more. It's got an interesting embedded Youtube video:
https://tentmeals.co.uk/blogs/news/food-for-the-marathon-des-sables
Piemonster - yes, the TR ramp test does assume you’re rested and fresh. I’d repeat it if I were you.
20 minute FTP test for me on Saturday. Although if my previous attempts are anything to go by I might need another couple of attempts to get the pacing right so I could be doing it again on Tuesday...
Am hoping to be well rested and am going to do it at 4pm which seems to be my 'golden hour' for training (based on one session last week which I smashed 🙂 ). Will also be better fueled than the first time I did it.
Could be a tough next training block if it all goes well! Although equally it could be a bit depressing if I don't see any gains...
On a side note, I've learned one of the drawbacks of using virtual power off a spreadsheet - bad maths! For my over-unders I was supposed to be doing 95% FTP for the unders, turns out I had been doing 105% FTP instead, turning it into a sort of 'over-over' session. Explains why I'd never really completed a session to my satisfaction...
I'm not very good with VO2max work so have decided to add an extra VO2max workout each week. I'm on that part of the plan where VO2max is ramping up anyway but I'd skipped earlier workouts as they landed during the Xmas/NY period.
There's a sub-group on TrainerRoad for VO2 work and there's a handful of custom workouts that one them has created and shared. Basically they are hard start intervals: hit 150% of FTP then over 90 seconds ramp down to 110% and then complete the interval at that level. There's a twist - each succeeding interval drops the maximum effort by 3-5% each time, so 145%, 140%, etc. down to 130% or so. The idea being that each interval is slightly easier to compensate for your increased fatigue.
The target for each workout is to spend as much time as possible above 90% of your MHR.
So tonight was my first attempt at one of these. I thought about doing the 4x5min (that's 90s of the descending ramp then 3m30s at 110%) but settled on 6x3min. Very much a learning curve, ended up with 3 1/2mins in the target HR zone so I need to work on several things, notably getting my HR to ramp up quicker. Even so I got some power PRs for times in the 60-90 seconds range.
https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/100606688-6x3-hard-start-vo2max
I'm going to stick with this particular workout firstly until I can complete it (!) and then improve my time in zone.
Sounds like an interesting workout!
I met my nemesis today, 1hr Z2 indoors! Succesfully completed on rollers by dint of dicking around with cadence, position and occasional bursts of 180RPM cadence (sort of following the GCN Sweetspot Workout with 10s bursts every 5 minutes just to keep legs interested).
Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.
I run Zwift concurrently with TR, which lowers RPE. I don't race but can tick off routes and get badges while I'm training. A smart trainer means I can just let the turbo take care of resistance and just pedal along up Ventoux, or AddZ or Central Park...
Well the Ramp Test today went …
Not well 😧
Bailed at 16m30.
You did better than me, I only managed 15min of my 20min FTP test today, riding to an FTP only very slightly (9W) higher than I've been setting my training zones to ☹
I think it's telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4x5 minute thresholds, I'm hoping this goes some way to explaining why I've never managed a full 20 minute test!
Also I was hungover today, but only very slightly 😉
Think I'll focus on longer interval workouts for the next 5-6 weeks then try again.
Can I just reiterate again the benefit of doing Zwift races in relation to ftp. It seems to help if it's people you actually know you are racing and you genuinely can't deal with them being smug having beat you. Zwift reckons I should increase my ftp by 23 watts after yesterday 😀 I am being conservative and only going with 15 as I may not be able to recreate this power in any other scenario...
Obviously that's psychology at work - male competitive instinct and all that. Power outputs in races, particularly criterium like races, is high, pretty much a HIIT workout but with the "recoveries" at threshold. The power profiles of race simulation workouts are just insane: 125-145% efforts separated by just 5s at 80% as "rest", similar on/off efforts then continuing for four minutes! That's from a cyclocross simulation BTW.
I don't think I'd have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout "on my own" so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.
@13thfloormonk - I use intervals.icu, it pulls workouts/rides from Strava and Garmin Connect and is a sort of poor man's WKO. (Currently free though he has started asking for donations as he's moved to new servers and is shifting more data) One of the analysis screens shows your power curve along with idealised curves and age adjusted ones so you can see where you need to work on your weak points.
Supra-threshold intervals are hard, particularly those just above FTP since the assumption is that you should be able to do reasonably long durations.
I've been doing more investigation in to VO2max workouts - this blog is interesting https://sparecycles.blog/ - I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the "standard" 75% so I don't have the room to grow. Thus I need to raise VO2max before my FTP can rise. Perhaps another way of saying I've plateaued. The only problem is that doing these workouts causes the furniture in the house to shake! I need to do them when my wife's not in.
I don’t think I’d have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout “on my own” so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.
Exactly this for me. My default assumption is that Zwift races are sort of 'junk' training, e.g. not specific enough, or too hard and requiring too much recovery, compared with structured intervals.
But on the flipside, if I could be bothered buying all the gear and setting up a Zwift cave, I could also imagine I'd make big gains quickly if I limited myself to two races a week, I think my ability to push myself in a non-competitive scenario is pretty feeble...
I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the “standard” 75% so I don’t have the room to grow.
I think I might be the opposite which surprises me, I never thought I was a 'short burst' type. I wonder if that reflects my physiology which I *think* is relatively heavy for not very much body fat.
I was doing 30/15s at 130% of my presumed FTP of 263W, but struggle to do 103% for 10 minutes. Looking at it like that perhaps it's no surprise, but that 103% was hoping/assuming I'd made some improvement on my FTP, so in reality would have been lower still.
Hopefully this means room to grow! Time for a month or more of longer intervals, which will segue quite nicely into getting back outside to take the training back on to real hills come March hopefully.
I think it’s telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4×5 minute thresholds, I’m hoping this goes some way to explaining why I’ve never managed a full 20 minute test!
Does it not just mean that you've overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?
Does it not just mean that you’ve overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?
Yep, pretty much 😎
On the flipside though, my imagined/never actually proven FTP seems to work to set training zones (e.g. I can 'just' complete workouts based around this FTP) so I'll keep using it for now.
I'm on the lookout for some pointers please. I'm hoping to race some enduros this year but struggling for bike time at the moment so just bought a turbo.
I've set myself a goal date of Ard Dales (fingers crossed), so gives me 15 weeks from 1 Feb to lose a few KG and get myself ready to battle for mid pack.
I've always gone to the gym and rode lots of MTB, but never "trained" so a bit lost as to where to begin. Zwift's beginner FTP builder is 4 or 5 hour long sessions a week which is more than I would like.
Fortunately I've got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:
- 2 turbo
- 2 gym sessions
- 1 MTB ride
What sort of turbo sessions should I be looking at?
The TR gravity plan has some intense intervals, very demanding, suggesting that top end work is definitely the order of the day for enduro. But they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don't think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.
You can do some stuff on that training schedule though, definitely. If you've never trained I'd prob just get on a zwift program and just choose the two you want to do that week. The programs are kinda bad if you're experienced but starting out anything vaguely sensible will give you gains.
Pretty much any training will show improvements but you don't say what your current strengths/weaknesses are.
Not sure what you class as "long", most workouts from whatever programme tend to be in the 60-90minute range as you'll need warm up and cool down periods to bookmark the actual work. There's also a minimum effective dose, basically you need to do a minimum to see improvements, again without knowing your current status it's hard to say what that it.
Protocols like HIIT give quick gains but are difficult to sustain in the long term - they often feature as a short block in longer term plans to shake things up.
I'd drop one gym session, you probably just want to be in maintenance mode this close to the event, trying to push (sorry) things will potentially impact other parts of your training. Turbo wise you've got three general classes: endurance; threshold & anaerobic. So it really depends on what you want to work on. If you are good with sprints, go more for threshold and endurance, if you are good with endurance (i.e. long steady plodding) then look at the other two, etc
Fortunately I’ve got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:
The Dylan Johnson videos are a good starter, the 'Fit in 10hrs a week' video helped me reorganise my training week into:
Monday - off
Tuesday - hardest turbo session, I'm currently doing 3x10min threshold
Wednesday - Tempo or Sweetspot session, this could be done outdoors I guess if you can find 2x20minute sections (I've got two long gravel sections that fit the bill quite nicely although they are rolling so will need some attention to stay in zone)
Thursday - 2hr endurance e.g. spinning the legs, easy.
Friday - off
Saturday - another hard session, not as hard as Tuesday, make this another turbo session? I'm debating making this an over-under session or another threshold session.
Sunday - as long an 'easy' ride as you can, 4-5hrs.
I guess maybe you could make Wednesday a gym day?
Those Dylan Johnson videos really are helpful. I do hope he's not talking about of his **** as I've partly structured my week from his stuff.
The DJ videos are reasonably uncontentious - he does a decent job of analysing the various and often conflicting studies about various training protocols. Probably the polarised vs Sweet Spot video has raised most chat.
He works for or is associated with CTS which is the coaching company set up by Chris Carmichael who wrote The Time Crunched Cyclist. I'm assuming he also gets some feedback from there as well so his analysis won't be too far off.
I'm still struggling to settle on a 'default' training week that doesn't involve training 7 days a week.
If I was just looking at biking, or even just biking and running. And definitely not looking at training for a 300km solo MTB ITT along with Fell Running, Swimming and Rowing I suspect its be pretty simple.
How daft would it be to be active 7 days a week (assuming fresh and not ****ed) but with Monday and Friday as no legs days. So Mon/Fri would be either weights/Swimming/fixed seat rowing. Those options can all be taken at active recovery effort levels if needed, the rowing can be as hard or as easy as I want, it's not the skinny max effort style you see in the Olympics that's for sure. Weights can also be adjusted if needed to focus on control and range/stretching as suitable for condition.
Edit, Trainerroad so far is looking like money well spent.
Piemonster, two no legs days sounds like a sensible plan, but don't forget it's still overall stress on your CNS that need recovery, not just the actual directly involved muscles.
I guess many triathletes do two a days of different modalities to enable proper 'off days' and getting the 'full body' done in one day of stress?
Also if you're doing such an overall volume with different modes of exercise, with work, family, life etc you'll need to make a fair bit of that easy volume maybe in a polarised way for the same reason. And sleep and rest as training priority too.
I have various health limits so that even an hour or two walking on my off the bike days is enough for them not to be off days for my legs.
Oh, meant to say that hard day, medium day, easy day, off day, cycle is something I was looking at the other day for when I finish my current zwift gravel grinder plan and seems to be a cycle that the Fascat coaching plans work with. So threshold, tempo, z2 then off, but for me probably sweet spot, tempo, z2.
What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?
I am going through a fairly intense period of training (more general fitness than cycling specific) which I have scheduled 2 days a week as rest/active recovery, today being 1 of those days. I have done a couple of decent gym sessions and a sweet spot ride on the trainer in the past 3 days and can feel it in my legs, and also feel a bit depleted generally from it.
I feel like my muscles would benefit from a gentle spin to flush some blood through, but my "health battery" (I can't think of better terminology at the moment) could do with a full rest and recharge.
Seems people either feel benefit from active recovery, which is something like a 30mins below 50% ftp spin, or just need rest with it being a very personal choice. From what I remember it's a case of it you feel it helps great, if not rest.
Light stretching and mobilisation is always good.
What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?
Personally I love it, but it's surprisingly hard to do in practice - outdoors it's very easy for your recovery ride to turn into junk miles with lots of lowish pace miles, and a few higher intensity bits when you get bored. The lowish speed miles aren't really quite low enough, and the harder bits are just enough to tire you without any real training benefit.
If you are planning on doing some it's a lot easier on a turbo in ERG mode where you can guarantee the pace. Aim for 40-45% FTP, 90rpm cadence, and spin along to Spotify or Netflix for 45-60min.
Bugger, very succesful first attempt at some Dylan Johnson FTP type intervals on Tuesday (aimed for 3x8min @ FTP and managed 8,9,10 minute at just over FTP) so was happy with that.
Next day I did 2x20 minute tempo/sweetspot outdoors, although it was probably more like 2x25min which was nice (basically trying to use the longest climbs in my area which by necessity end up very gradual).
But for the last three days I've been limping around with a spasmed/seized up lower back. Am trying to figure out how I've done this, or if it's just a shift to longer sustained efforts that has somehow brought it on.
Ironically, I've been messing about with 'spin' style out of the saddle efforts where you take most of the weight off your hands and almost 'hover' over the bars whilst pedalling. I'm doing it as a workout for my glutes but am guessing it puts a lot of strain on low back, whether you feel it or not.
I'd feel worse for missing a couple of workouts while it eases, but it's looking increasingly like the event we're training for won't happen anyway, so.. meh I guess.
High cadence standing pedaling? What's the rationale behind that?
Not so much the cadence but the position, no weight on bars mean you have to push your weight back and use your glutes and core more, which I think is why they do it in spin classes as a sort of bonus core workout. It's also a useful technique whilst trying stand and pedal on rollers!
Don't try it on fixed unless you are a quick spinner!
Cheers 13thfloormonk, I understand the benefit of standing pedaling the way you describe, it was more the reason for high cadence , though I guess high cadence makes it harder to balance. I'm turbo bound in a bit so might see what I can manage, though I'm not sure I want to risk breaking anything 😂
The Dylan Johnson videos are good. I've watched a few as well as plenty of videos and podcasts from various DH and enduro coaches. I want to keep the gym days in, I think they're just as important as the turbo sessions for the type of riding I do.
they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don’t think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.
This makes sense - I've opted for the Zwift Beginner FTP builder. I'll follow that as best as I can for 6 weeks.
I did the first 'Strength' session last night. Newbie question - do the stars on Zwift matter? On most intervals I wasn't getting the star which I presume means indicates successfully completing the interval. My assumption is on the sprints I was going too hard, and then taking too long to find correct power and cadence on the recovery?