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Sadly it looks like we're pretty much there....
I just managed to get a new 2 seasons old Trek Slash which had wired gears and none of that electronic gubbins in the suspension.
But now I'm looking at gravel bikes and it looks like I'm stuffed. For the model I want, I've found a 2024 version and a 2025 version. The 2025 takes 50mm tyres, which is 5 mm more than the 2024 one. And that is pretty much a key priority. Alongside that, the 2025 apparently had a more relaxed comfortable riding position so pretty much a no brainer.....
BUT the new model has wireless shifting.... £#@&
The 2024 one not only doesn't have wireless shifting, but also doesn't have that **** stupid 1x transmission that limits the gear range.
So, do I buy the old model with decent gears, but limited tyre clearance or the new one with decent clearance but a transmission setup that I despise?
I've toyed with getting the new one and replacing the transmission with manual, but I'm assuming I'd need to change almost the full gruppo as the gear leavers and brake levers are integrated (obvs). Which is a good £600+ outlay and I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy a bottom of the range Apex AXS group second hand.
On top of this, I really don't want to vote with my money and encourage the manufacturer to think everyone wants this electric dross.
So perhaps I just need to get the old one with wee tyres ...
Anyway, that's it. ****ing bike manufacturers. Fit electronic gears to pretty much everything so we have no ( reasonable cost effective) way of avoiding them, then crow about how they're just providing what the customer wants.
****ers.
Yep, pretty depressing.
Got to go custom or semi custom, my next gravel bike will be a frameset + groupset of my choice (mechanical, obvs), or someone like Fairlight will let you spec e.g. a Secan how you want it.
I hadn't noticed wireless becoming completely ubiquitous, yet, i.e. I wanted mechanical 2x and found Canyons, Giants, Cubes, Mondrakers all with 50mm tyre clearance.
I still don't really understand what problem it fixes either, seems like a huge amount of money and extra potential for failure for what exactly, an absence of cables? Cables only became a problem as I recall when manufacturers started insisting on hiding them inside the frames 🙄
I still don't really understand what problem it fixes either, seems like a huge amount of money
Nail - head. They are in the business of selling things
I agree that it shouldn't be the default, but are there really no other quality gravel bike manufacturers out there offering decent clearance and mechanical shifting?
Is there not a cheaper version of what you want with a GRX400 setup?
Anyway, that's it. ****ing bike manufacturers. Fit electronic gears to pretty much everything so we have no ( reasonable cost effective) way of avoiding them, then crow about how they're just providing what the customer wants.
Just don't buy a bike - And what I mean by that is I've never bought 'a bike'. Since I was in my early teens every bike I've owned I've put together from the parts I want. Except for one indecent of loss by theft I'm not even really sure where one 'bike' has started and another one has ended really.
If you would go to the trouble of buying a bike expressly to then swap the part off of it for the ones you want why not just put together the bike you want in the first place.
Is there not a cheaper version of what you want with a GRX400 setup?
Like you say, wireless isn't going to be on the lower spec models
Buy the current one and the wired kit you want, sell the wireless stuff and enjoy a saving as you'll get more for wireless kit than mechanical.
What sort of budget are you looking at? Would love a reasonably priced 1x gravel bike and personally would consider (enjoying it on the full suss) the electric shifting a nice to have but not essential.
in the lower end of the market if they aren’t trying to offload out of date frames it’s got some terrible group set on it.
Faced with a choice of 1x or 2x I went for 2x because I felt that made sense. However I really wish I had gone 1x. I never seem to use the big ring and a front mech is something else to fiddle with. Even the dyed in the wool old school roadie in our riding group has gone 1x for his road bike. Electric shifting - no experience but I suspect it will be everywhere within a few years.
After last weekend I totally get not wanting di. I had a fantastic jennride until I smashed the rear mech. Still not cheap, but not £400.
With regards your tyre restrictions I assume you are talking 50mm at 700c. What about 650b. I have 2.2 conti tyres, fast on road, excellent this weekend, faultless IMO.
I also went 1x, 10-51. They worked for me on the jennride, no issues on gear range. I did choose the 620 chainset which comes with a smaller chainring.
Buy the current one and the wired kit you want, sell the wireless stuff and enjoy a saving as you'll get more for wireless kit than mechanical.
That's a bit of a hassle though, especially on a curly bar bike as you'll have to faff with brakes and bar tape too.
the electric shifting a nice to have but not essential.
I wouldn't want it on anything I'm likely to do multi days on or ride it in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure it's lovely to use but I don't need the extra hassle of remembering to charge another thing.
Feel like an old guy shouting at clouds, no desire to have it on any of my bikes.
Tried Di2 on the road for a while, and improved shifting on the front mech felt nice with the auto trim and no big lever throw, but really not worth it IMO for the amount of time I actually shift between chainrings on the average road ride and the terrifying cost of replacing the rear mech.
A clean, well-maintained mechanical drive chain does what it's designed to do and more importantly I don't have to remember to charge a battery in order to go out a ride.
I just bought a new gravel bike with SRAM AXS to replace a bike with GRX-400, which was shite. It's not an exaggeration to say that failure of the GRX-400 to remain indexed ruined my enjoyment of that bike...hence I decided the replacement MUST have AXS or Di2. Sorry, it's all my fault 😄
Here's hoping I enjoy AXS....
A quick thought experiment for you.
How many items do you own?
Which of those items that you own do not currently work?
What proportion of the things which do not work are electronic?
.
.
And related
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago? Who expects their AXS or Di2 to still be working in twenty years time, even assuming you can still buy twelve speed chains and cassettes?
I reckon 12 speed consumables will be available in 20 years time. 26 inch tyres are still made, 135mm hubs, rim brake pads etc. even if they are not the highest quality.
If today's electronic derailleurs or shifters are still working, I'm not so sure.
Pretty much zero interest in electric shifting myself, but it will probably come on a bike I buy at some point. I like gadgets so I'd give it a go before deciding to change it. Doing so would be a lot more involved on a drop bar bike though. Campagnolo Ekar looks good, more brands are offering that as a option?
This definitely feels like something pushed on consumers by Sram, whether they wanted it or not. With other manufacturers following along, whether they believe in it or not, because Sram forced the market in a particular direction. In real life I don't know anyone who wants electric or hasn't regretted it due problems. I ride with one guy who is going back to cables because of shifting and range issues and another who had Transmission taken off his new Epic at the shop and cable X01 put on instead.
This whole charging a short lived battery at home situation is piss poor. It should charge itself via a hub or jockey wheel dynamo and last indefinitely. Then again this whole rear derailleur situation is piss poor as well. I've been saying gearboxes are the future for 15+ years now and progress has been highly disappointing. Guess that'll be the next big thing once rinsing us for electric mechs starts to tail off.
I think electric shifting is brilliant. I’m not buying another cable operated thing again. The reason it is so widespread (but isn’t, really, just at the enthusiast end of an affluent market) is the majority of buyers want it, else it wouldn’t have caught on in the way that it has. SRAM have just released new cable mechs & Shimano will keep making them for years, so y’all can stop waving your fists and yelling at clouds. But you won’t.
It's a hard no from me.
I've already been on a group ride where we've driven two hours to Wales and then the person had an issue with his electric rear mech battery that meant he had no gears. (He ended up having to swap his battery with another rider at the bottom of the huge climbs, shift it into his easy gear, then give the battery back and similar at the top)
It's just ridiculous (imho) to introduce another potentially ride-ending component that isn't able to be fixed with simple spares on the side of the trail. I'm sure they are generally fairly reliable, but it's another thing that could end your ride added into things.
I've destroyed loads of rear mechs over the years too riding in woods, sticks or rocks getting flicked up.. It's heartbreaking enough when your mech 'only' costs £50 odd. Not a chance I'd be fitting something worth several hundred with my history with mechs! 😂
I'm sure they're great for road and gravel but I'm struggling to see the logic for my particular use case.
New bikes need new/different features to help them sell. Currently this is it. I understand that but nah, not for me (at this moment in time with the experiences I have with gears)
But now I'm looking at gravel bikes and it looks like I'm stuffed. For the model I want, I've found a 2024 version and a 2025 version. The 2025 takes 50mm tyres, which is 5 mm more than the 2024 one. And that is pretty much a key priority. Alongside that, the 2025 apparently had a more relaxed comfortable riding position so pretty much a no brainer.....
Is this still the Canyon Grizl / Grail dilemma that you were having in a previous thread?
I bought the Grizl:ON e-bike version for commuting and specifically went for wireless gears. Not faffing around trying to route a rear mech cable around and through battery / motor etc. **** that!
There is actually still a wire because the mech is powered by the main bike battery, it doesn't have it's own little one like a normal SRAM mech. This makes it way easier in operation, all I need to do is charge the bike up. What it does though is just create a zero hassle "performance commuter" bike. It's brilliant.
I know Canyon have just (in the last couple of weeks) changed their gravel models because all the old stuff was on sale so it must have been clearing out all the old semi-wired GRX for the new wireless GRX.
It doesn't affect me because I simply have no interest in that aspect of cycling. I'm off out the door in 15 minutes to do a 75km ride on a 2011 frame I bought off here for £25, shod with wheels bought in 2007 that have moved from bike to bike over the last 18 years. I do, though, think it's a shame this is the direction the bike industry is moving in when we should be looking for more sustainability in our technology, not less.
I posted on the electric pump thread that no-one had moaned about having to remember to charge their pump on that thread yet anytime wireless gears were talked about, plenty moaned about having to charge a battery...and it appears to be accurate.
Recharging the battery really isn't a big deal, doesn't take long and unless you are doing 12hr+ days in the saddle, it isn't a daily thing (perhaps more likely on a gravel bike admittedly).
Each to their own but having moved to axs right before Brexit, I've had zero issues with it other than 4 self-induced - forgot battery (only happened once), hadn't charged battery (only happened once), replaced controller battery (once as bike had moved and controller remained depressed) and 3 days of not going to smallest cog (fixed with a squirt ot gt85 that dislodged some grit). Over 5 years that seems pretty small - none stopped a ride, but did make it less easy.
Just wait until they've got everyone on board with wireless and electric shifting and then introduce a subscription model, £7.99 a month and endless updates if you want your shifting to keep working 😂
I jest, but the direction that modern day capitalism is heading, I wouldn't actually be surprised, and they'll probably shoe-horn some pointless implementation of 'AI' in there as well 🙄
I jest, but the direction that modern day capitalism is heading, I wouldn't actually be surprised 🙄
"We're sorry, gear selection is temporarily unavailable, please try again later".
"Your free trial of GearShift Rapide has expired. Would you like to upgrade?"
🤣
and they'll probably shoe-horn some pointless implementation of 'AI' in there as well 🙄
They'll just get it to talk to Strava and everyone's feed will be dominated by announcements. 13thfloormonk just used their hardest ever gear, go deal some kudos!
I've had zero issues with it other than 4 self-induced
I mean, sorry to labour the point but that's four more issues than I've had with mechanical gears, over five different bikes. Last issue I had was dropping bike on its side and bending a hanger which would have happened with any system.
Watching Ed Laverack racing Gralloch (I think) and his race was effectively ended by Di2 going on the blink. I asked what benefits there were for him to make him run electric gears and he couldn't answer, just said that's what came with the bike (so much for 'consumers want it').
"We're sorry, gear selection is temporarily unavailable, please try again later".
"Your free trial of GearShift Rapide has expired. Would you like to upgrade?"
Reminds me of Episode 1 of the current series of Black Mirror (Common People).
Until I saw that I just thought it would be a good way to avoid internal routing.
I'm a fan of electronic shifting but it is pretty unnecessary I'll admit. The whole charging thing is over stated though, you can go months between charging it.
I do wonder when subscription gears are coming though, e.g. everything is 13 speed but unless you pay to unlock the extra gears you only get 10 to start with. Or it disables itself after a year unless you take out a monthly subscription...
I'm more in favour of wireless shifting than I am of wireless pedalling.
They'll just get it to talk to Strava and everyone's feed will be dominated by announcements. 13thfloormonk just used their hardest ever gear, go deal some kudos!
Haha! '13thfloormonk has just set a PB for most time spent in his lowest gear, go deal some pity'...
If it's anything like our last car it will detect trifling mechanical issues and go in to limp mode. Chain worn? No high gears for you until you replace it!
I do wonder when subscription gears are coming though, e.g. everything is 13 speed but unless you pay to unlock the extra gears you only get 10 to start with. Or it disables itself after a year unless you take out a monthly subscription...
Introducing SRAM Premium. For only £5.99 a month* you get access to shifts twice as fast as SRAM Regular as well as a comprehensive download of which gears you use the most.
*For the first 6 months, £12.99 a month thereafter.
Sales of NX and GX mechanical would go through the roof! 😉
How many items do you own?
Which of those items that you own do not currently work?
What proportion of the things which do not work are electronic?
Exactly why no bike I own will ever use electronic gears. Happy to ride it on a borrowed/demo/sample bike though. Mixed thoughts on various brand's kit in this area, more so than I was with trad cabled stuff. I know wireless has a good reliability rep. But at the risk of sounding w*nky it's a Zen and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance thing for me. As much as possible with as little as possible, and the little things being simple and good quality. Bikes are better when they're simpler, imo. And how stuff feels to ride is the most important thing.
And that's before I think about the cost of a lot of this kit. I value bikes but a £200+ mech is not what I put the available £/value into. Drivetrains are throwaway parts to be worn out, unless it's on a road bike where things do last well - and there the newer kit fails on just being so ugly (Campy styling now just makes me sad..).
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago?
I just built a bike up that is almost 20 years old, had a mix of 105 and Ultegra on it and I used some old spares I had to complete it. Limit screws set I pulled the rear cable taut to the mech, did up the bolt and the indexing worked perfectly - didn't touch the barrel adjuster. It's lovely in use, looks great, zero desire to put anything newer on it now. Comparing that to the Transmission equipped bike I rode a while back which worked in a cold and 'Why is this so ££££?' way. It was consistent, a bit slow, it shifted like a vending machine serves a can (when I hit the right part of the shifter). I was as neutral about it as it felt to use while other parts of the bike really impressed me.
unless you are doing 12hr+ days in the saddle, it isn't a daily thing (perhaps more likely on a gravel bike admittedly).
Suprising how many people do though. Audax, touring, bikepacking etc, which along with gravel bikes are all growth areas in an otherwise flat bike industry. I'm waiting for 'GRX Ultra' or 'Red Ultra' - one of the big 2 parts brands will realise that although Di2 has fans in long distance racing for good reasons, for some a high end cable groupset will have appeal here. My bet is it will be SRAM snce they already released T-type for cables.
and they'll probably shoe-horn some pointless implementation of 'AI' in there as well 🙄
Well they have done that already. Shimano has autoshift that will change gear for you automatically
I use freeshift all the time on my emtb . Click the shifter, no turning of the cranks by me and the bike shifts in to the gear I’ve selected by itself. It’s absolutely a game changer on how electric shifting has brought improvement
Mes FD road bike has Di2 it’s brilliant. The only drawback is that I would like the charging cable to be a metre longer
I I have an electric pump. I really can’t think of any drawback over an old fashioned pump
It does concern me how expensive electric gears are, but I’ve not had any issues yet. Maybe if I was a Luddite I would 😜
I've got:
1x12 xt mechanical - hartdtail
2x11 GRX mechanical - gravel bikepacking
2x11 105, mechanical road bike
1 x 12 SX, enduro bike
1x12 xtr wireless, XC race bike.
I like all of them. Just got the xtr. my word its good in a race.
I've been riding bikes for long enough now that moaning about stuff getting obsoleted goes around and comes around. but modern bikes are amaaaaaaaaazingly good.
if only I had my race bike when I was 17.
I I have an electric pump. I really can’t think of any drawback over an old fashioned pump
running out of charge when its needed.
i'd love to lose a cable to tidy up, couldn't care less about replacing inners and outers (it's such a rarity using decent spec Shimano cables)
I thought i'd want it on a 2x bike.. not so much, i've learned how to 2x
I think i have had 1 cable related issue (old, cheap, skanky cable frozen on some winter ride) in the 5 year return to bikes
i can't remember the last time i had to tweak my indexing.. tbf i usually fiddle on a climb and it's no big deal it doesn't register...
however, i've ridden with the same mate who has twice over the past year had battery issues..his solution is to have a wireless dropper so there's always 2 battery options...and permanently have charger and battery in his van....
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago?
My gravel bike (built up from a bare frame) has a mix of parts on it, some new, some brought forward. My proudest is a Shimano 600 front mech from my very first proper road bike. I had it on my previous CX / gravel bike, transferred it to the new one and it's still on there now. Still working.
I think the mech must date from 1998. The little humble front mech. Not dead yet. 😉
running out of charge when its needed
It will do a 29er x 5 from flat.
Ive never managed to have 5 flats in one ride. No I wouldn’t take it bike packing but that’s the only scenario I can think of
One of the joys of cycling for me is that they are simple to maintain and just work. We have done lots of tours on basic bikes and had few issues other than the odd exploding tyre and puncture. I don't want to have the extra faf of draging around spare batteries cables, chargers and making sure your phone can be used to adjust the gears if the they fail.
If you look at Hannahs kit list in the current magazine it's loaded with extra tech.
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago?
MrsP has a 3x9 bike of that vintage and I recently had to source a new front mech for it as the old one had gone really floppy. The choice was somewhat limited but I found something and can't see why I'd expect replacing ancient mechanical or electric 12 speed would be any better or worse in future. Anyway we'll all be on hover bikes by then except for people who still insist that wheels are just fine and you won't be able to get 1.21 gigawatt capacitors out on the trail.
I totally get that many people are resistant to electronic shifting, or electronic gubbins full-stop on their bike. I’d probably have put myself in that camp before my last bike came with SRAM electronic shifting (GX I think?). Im just back from a biking weekend with friends in north wales. My two friends are much more tech savvy than me. And quite fanatical about keeping their bikes in tip top condition. They spent a lot of the time discussing lube for their gear cables, complaining that the wet and gritty dirt was affecting their gear changes. My bike was 13 months old at this point. And the shifting was as good as the day I got it, with hardly a finger having touched the thing since I bought it. By contrast, on any of my other bikes, the shifting is always changing/degrading slightly as cables stretch and conditions change.
So as long as I can afford to do so, I will be sticking with wireless shifting. ‘It just works’ is my assessment - at least for my situation.
edit: I did I buy an extra battery, just in case I forget to charge mine sometime. And I did have a battery replaced under warranty - so it’s not true to say that the system has been 100% hassle free.
Edit 2: but im not trying to convince anyone of anything. I still totally get anyone’s reluctance to put anything on a bike which requires updates and Bluetooth. (It sort of messes with the mechanical nature of bikes in their natural state). So Im not trying to say that anyone should embrace anything. Im only saying that I was a sceptic and have been made a convert.
My proudest is a Shimano 600 front mech from my very first proper road bike.
My road bike has a full 600 tricolor groupset on it (gears, hubs, BB, brakes) which is getting on for 40 years old and everything works perfectly, even the BB is the original one. The only part I had to replace was the headset as cups had gone a bit ovalised in straight ahead position.
Downtube shifters may be a step too far for most people but again they still just work so well and are so easy to maintain.
I'm no luddite - I was the first person I know to get a dropper post but I just don't get electronic shifting.
Is it cheaper? No.
Is it lighter? No.
Will it make me ride faster? No.
Is it more reliable? No.
Does it mean less maintenance? No.
Is it cheaper to maintain? No
Does it mean bigger profits for the manufacturers? Oh yes. Micro switches are much cheaper to make than mechanical shifters and you can sell them for more money. Replacement batteries can be sold for more than gear cables. Kerching!
I built an Escapade in 2016. 3x10 Tiagra 4700. It's used on and off road, commuting, touring etc. I've not even tweaked the gears since the day I built it and it's done around 10000km. If a do break the rear mech a new one is £28. Yes, £28 . A tenth the price of a Di2 rear mech. Cable lube? Never used it, Sealed ferrules make that irrelevant.
I've tried Di2. It's nice, but I would pay more to actively avoid it in favour of an XTR or XT mechanical system.
I seriously considered ripping the AXS off my new Cannondale, when I tried to swap the back wheel and had to go through a whole new learning curve to get the gears properly adjusted. (I dun a thread). I managed to get it done, but the main advantage I could see - when I was looking at how I'd get cabled gears on the bike - is the ****y INTERNAL ROUTING malarky! I just couldn't see myself going through the hassle of trying to get cables routed from the headtube, through all the wiring gubbins (ebike, sorry), to the underside of the chainstay. So AXS is awesome, but only because you don't have to go through that crap! The difference in pushing a button to shift to pushing a little lever? meh.
I'd "used" Di2 a few times on customers bikes after servicing them or setting them up. I always thought it was nice but not worth the added cost. Then I went to Majorca earlier this year and the hire bike had Di2. I came back wanting it at home. Not because of anything to do with gear changing, but because I could pair it with my Garmin Edge for scrolling through screens - particularly useful when navigating somewhere unfamiliar.
It was, if course, cheaper to buy an Edge Remote Control, which also has the advantage of being portable across bikes.
rode 100 km on my manual dura ace 9000 last night, flawless. but i still missed the sram red etap on my 1x gravel bike. Electronic shifting can be fabulous. my 100 mile TT on sunday, never missed an electronic shift despite being exhausted - just pushing a button means you shift more often. i was skeptical until i tried it. now i’m not. But has to be properly wireless not the Di2 fudge. Still like Da9000 for the bling and weight, but my next road bike will be sram electronic. my mob is a single speed so ignore me.
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago?
2x9 speed on both my Orange primary Mountain bike, and also on my Hardtail (currently singlespeed, just for fun, but the 9speed i in box for another day.
3x9 speed on my Disk trucker too.
3x8 Speed on the Yuba Cargo
no 10, 11 or 12. obviously no electronics..
Last ride i went on, someone ide not before went "aww, hes got one of those old oranges like you used to have"
its only 10 yrs old, i think
Who's still running 8 or 9 speed drivetrains from twenty odd years ago? Who expects their AXS or Di2 to still be working in twenty years time, even assuming you can still buy twelve speed chains and cassettes?
Hi! 3x9 drivetrain here on my hardtail. Love the bike, it's 26" wheels, see no reason to replace it; drivetrain has been going strong for donkey's years.
It's not that unusual, frankly; and the idea that we should buy a bike, and components, knowing that we'll replace them in 5 years' time (or break them in 2) is utter bawls
Likewise, after much deliberation, looking at bikes, asking clubmates, I decided to stick with mechanical shifting for my new 'year round' bike.
1) It just works, I dab the lever and it shifts.
2) When asked, most admitted that Shimano Di2 was at best something you leant to live with when using winter gloves. I wanted a bike for all year round so spending 6 months of the year searching for a small button with big gloves was a deal breaker. And I didn't want SRAM because of the pogo pin issue.
3) Batteries. Yes they last a long time, but not forever. Everyone seemed to eventually either forget to charge it, ride more than they usually do and drain it quicker than expected, lean it up against a wall (or in a car) and rapidly flatten it.
I'm hoping that all these announcements are leading up to new DA at the tour which might mean an early overhaul of Ultegra and 105 Di2 although as they've now released 4 new grouplets in one year already that's possibly optimistic. But that might mean some bargain wired-ish 105 Di2 bikes.
They spent a lot of the time discussing lube for their gear cables, complaining that the wet and gritty dirt was affecting their gear changes. My bike was 13 months old at this point. And the shifting was as good as the day I got it, with hardly a finger having touched the thing since I bought it. By contrast, on any of my other bikes, the shifting is always changing/degrading slightly as cables stretch and conditions change.
This is a totally valid point. Trad cables do deteriorate but good set up and periodic, cheap maintenance (and good routing which isn't a cert) resolves that. With wireless you get all or nothing - it's perfect until it isn't and when it isn't there is a good chance there's not much you can do about it. Though you can kill any mech system mid-ride, the likelihood is that wireless is more binary and that's something I'm wary of because the gains just don't have enough value to me. Plus, the cost. (Likewise not trying tro convince anyone of anything - apart from Sram and Shimano to keep the choices open or lose some customers, good luck to me with that one..)
Does it mean bigger profits for the manufacturers? Oh yes. Micro switches are much cheaper to make than mechanical shifters and you can sell them for more money. Replacement batteries can be sold for more than gear cables. Kerching!
Also much faster to build bikes on a production line, like BB30 made production faster.
It seems like every 2 weeks I have yet another issue with my mechanical shifting. It never shifts perfectly for more than a couple of weeks then another issue pops up.
Honestly to me wireless shifting sounds like a dream. I know a few people who have it and they've had no issues whatsoever.
I just couldn't see myself going through the hassle of trying to get cables routed from the headtube, through all the wiring gubbins (ebike, sorry), to the underside of the chainstay. So AXS is awesome, but only because you don't have to go through that crap!
The £100 fix of wireless gears to sort the £1 level idea of internal routing for aesthetics. Proof it's a fashion industry?
I don’t get the weird anger people seem to have towards charging batteries, when so many other things need charging, so that side of things doesn’t bother me as a user (old AXS & T-Type)
What does bother me is how noisy my bike was with old AXS, resorting to home brew bodges with washers & PTFE tape.
T-Type has genuinely been the most unreliable groupset I’ve ever used. We have it on a few bikes, currently on replacement mech number 5 (mostly pogo pin failure), I’ve lost count of the number of bent lower arms I’ve had to replace & a couple sheared cassettes.
I’m removing it from my full powered ebike, as it’s utterly pointless on there - ironically I can probably see a benefit to it on a road or gravel bike, but MTB’s? Not for me, the only benefit I can really see is dealing with bike manufacturers idiotic cable routing isn’t an issue.
IMO wireless gearing is another needless solution for a problem that doesn't exist... Just like electric mini pumps! 🤣
I've had one rear mech cable shear inside the brs505 brifter on my Cube Attain GTC that has internal routing, something that brifter was reknowned for along with the little white cable guide wearing and then allowing the cable to damage the brifter. Replacement guides are ~£2 each
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-strs505-sl-cable-guide-b-right-hand-y03n74000/
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-strs505-sl-cable-guide-a-left-hand-y03m75000/
I bought a length of cable guide from Amazon, threaded it through frame and sent the new cable through it, job done.
I don’t get the weird anger people seem to have towards charging batteries, when so many other things need charging, so that side of things doesn’t bother me as a user (old AXS & T-Type)
This has been a regular comment on forums since the dawn of electronic shifting.
What if your battery dies? What if you run out of battery?
Quite honestly, on a modern system, it means you're an idiot because the system will warn you repeatedly. And since we all live with multiple electronic devices from mobile phones to cars that we seem to be able to charge up with no issues, a tiny SRAM battery shouldn't really be the massive showstopper it's made out to be. Di2 is even better in that respect, 3-4 charges a year is all it needs.
Of course the counter point is that nothing on a mechanical bike ever needs charging so yes, you win that argument but the whole "what if your battery dies?" is pretty much a non-issue. "It's a pain having more batteries to charge" is a valid argument but not "what if it dies?"
Quite honestly, on a modern system, it means you're an idiot because the system will warn you repeatedly.
Apart from the last time mine ran out after I'd checked the app before I went out, it reported full charge. Nope, rear mech ran out 1 hr in. Fortunately 2x so I could swap.
I've had a couple more that were probably my fault, but ultimately I do want to be able to just jump on my bike for a ride, and having to check/charge batteries breaks that. I can still go on a bike ride with a flat Garmin. Got my AXS as the bike came with it, but given the choice I'll be avoiding it in future, cables have been better for me. (Not perfect of course, I have had the Shimano cable break inside the shifter, but not for a few years now).
Also much faster to build bikes on a production line, like BB30 made production faster.
that does seem to be the benefit of the T type with its fixed location. there's no more faffing around with indexing and limit screws and barrel adjusters.
1 bolt screws the mech on (a task you can teach to anyone with opposable thumbs in about 5 minutes), and crucially this can be done before the rear wheel or bars/shifters get anywhere near the bike.
Also much faster to build bikes on a production line, like BB30 made production faster.
that does seem to be the benefit of the T type with its fixed location. there's no more faffing around with indexing and limit screws and barrel adjusters.
1 bolt screws the mech on (a task you can teach to anyone with opposable thumbs in about 5 minutes), and crucially this can be done before the rear wheel or bars/shifters get anywhere near the bike.
2) When asked, most admitted that Shimano Di2 was at best something you leant to live with when using winter gloves. I wanted a bike for all year round so spending 6 months of the year searching for a small button with big gloves was a deal breaker. And I didn't want SRAM because of the pogo pin issue.
3) Batteries. Yes they last a long time, but not forever. Everyone seemed to eventually either forget to charge it, ride more than they usually do and drain it quicker than expected, lean it up against a wall (or in a car) and rapidly flatten it.
For me one of the major advantages of Di2 is that when I have frozen hands in winter gloves I can still shift easily. I've never heard anybody say anything like what you report here.
My Garmin tells me what level my Di2 battery is at. Once every few months I need to charge it. It really isn't hard. I expect the new wireless will not last anywhere near as long, but I already get home and automatically put the Garmin and the lights on charge - I think adding a derailleur battery to that routine is unlikely to be too challenging.
Two of my bikes, road and gravel, currently have Di2. On a recent trip to Mallorca I had to slum it on a bike with mechanical Ultegra, and while it wasn't a disaster it reminded me how much I appreciate Di2. I have two mountain bikes with 12-speed XT - I'll be seriously considering the upgrade kit.
When asked, most admitted that Shimano Di2 was at best something you leant to live with when using winter gloves
I fitted Di2 to my roadt bike in early Jan (21 or 22) so I spent the first few months riding it with winter gloves on and yes it was a bit wierd because I had no real tactile feedback of what my fingers were doing on unfamiliar shifters. But as soon as I got the muscle memory sorted it's been a total non issue, in fact the small movement needed probably makes it easier than the longer throw of a mechanical shifter.
For me the problem is not that electronic shifting exists but that by going electronic only you are being denied a choice. Or you have to fit crap low end component.
Shifting SRAM with winter gloves is trivial, never an issue as only one LARGE paddle on each shifter. Left is up the cassette and right is down. I have 1x10 Di2 on the TT Trike set the same. I don't have brifter Di2.
Or you have to fit crap low end component.
Or older components. Apparently my best bike (Defy Advanced SL with rim brakes) has little retail value, but the full DA9000 groupset I fitted to it at upgrade is still extremely desirable (and black and shiny mix matches everything). It's also lighter than Di2.
A cleaner looking cockpit and indexing via the app are both very appealing, but the price is way too high for me to justify upgrading.
I'd certainly have no complaints if it came on a new bike.
I borrowed a bike-shop-owning mates all singing, all dancing gravel bike 18 months of so back, which had AXS on. I was genuinely surprised quite how good it was. It just worked. Perfect, effortless, identical shifts every time. I got it, completely.
But I'm not having electronic gears on a bike. Bikes should be, must be, simple purely mechanical objects. I'm no retro grouch - LLS geo is ace; droppers are brilliant, I've been tubeless for about 20 years (although I'm plenty happy with 11speed - feel no need to change to 12). I just Do. Not. Want. electric stuff on a bike.
The cost is an issue, but not the end of the world in road/gravel terms, where breaking stuff is rare. MTB - I've bust 2 derailleurs already this year, fortunately both repairable with bits out the spares box, but worst case its £60 for an XT 11spd mech. Annoying, but not crippling - certainly not like £450 would be! But the road bike shifting is plenty good enough with mechanical...
The only bike I'd even begin to consider swapping to e-gears is my carbon gravel bike, which has internal routing. There seems to be quite a tight bend in the outer around the BB which wears faster and generates friction and therefore shitty shifting much quicker than my other bikes - I'm changing cables twice a year on it, not every couple of years (at worst) on all my other externally routed bikes. So that's like a tenner. Not like the £600 a swap to Di2 would cost!
A cleaner looking cockpit and indexing via the app are both very appealing,
Tidily routed cables of the correct length are fine and very far from objectionable - its a simple obvious functional thing; the last thing I want is a ****in' app to make my bike work - bikes are all about getting away from that shite! And why is it so hard to twiddle a barrel adjuster 1/4 turn once a blue moon?
I don’t get the weird anger people seem to have towards charging batteries, when so many other things need charging,
And since we all live with multiple electronic devices from mobile phones to cars that we seem to be able to charge up with no issues,
I like bikes bc they're one of the things in life that aren't bleeping or flashing lights for attention or power, needing the right charge cables, needing me to remember to do this or that, etc. I turn the notifications off for practically everything but I still have 4 or 5 different ways people send messages - emails, messengers, apps, text.. personally I'm just bored or fed up of Tamagochi style attention-needy tech. Bikes are an antidote to a lot of things and for me that includes electronic tech.
Yeah but that nice tactile click on my SRAM Red shifter never gets old 😉 Sure, I'm a convert, but if I was breaking two off-road rear derailleurs a year, I'd be mechanical too. And my absolute favourite bike is my track bike. Forget electric, think no brakes or gear shifting or freewheel. Just the purest pedalling. My second favourite bike is my fixed wheel road bike with Campagnolo Record. But Oh my, those paddle shifts can corrupt one's soul - it's a hard call for No. 3 and two less cables doesn't help 😀
Cost - specifically rear mechs. That's the main reason against wireless shifting for me. Yes, the idea of better/more reliable shifting appeals but it's all too easy (for me at least) to destroy a rear mech, especially on a MTB.
- Deore £30 vs £375
- XT £75 vs £430
I'm not flush enough to have a £375+ mech hanging off the back or my bike.
I agree there should be a choice in whether electronic or cabled components are available throughout the range, not just the Deore/NX level stuff.
And I say this as having GX AXS on both bikes. One set bought full price not long after it came out, the second was a £100 mech on FB marketplace.
Only issues I have had are
-Worn bushes on one of them which was easily sorted with a £28 kit from Leap Components - dunno if XX1 or X01 mechanical have the same issues, and even if they do if they can be fixed.
-Mech battery died so I needed a new one - this is the equivalent of snapping a cable, if a bit more expensive.
Not had any issues with forgetting to charge them - I get 3-4 weeks between charges on the normal bike, and I have made a set up to connect the other mech to the KSL battery, and that had a 320Wh battery so I think that'll be fine.
I'd probably be a bit more hesitant with road/gravel AXS due to the integration of the shifter with the levers, but then even mechanical is integrated there.
..."It's a pain having more batteries to charge" is a valid argument but not "what if it dies?"
I suppose, but as Garmin keep managing to demonstrate to me, small Lithium Ion Batteries are not infinately durable, they have a finite life, limited by charge cycles and extremes of temperature and it´s probably more limited than the life of a typical groupset.
Personally I find myself a bit on the fence with leccy shifting, The friends I have with Di2 seem very happy, but when there´s an issue, it´s normally battery related or maybe crash mode and the "in the field" fix is really to have remembered either a spare battery, or a proprietary cable (and find an understnding cafe)...
Ultimately I think they´re probably about on par reliability wise, but then if I´m paying more I want more reliability.
Every time I come to throw another bike together I find myself looking at the cost of a leccy group, then I look at the price of a mechanical group, and the answer is self evident, the difference in price means more money for other parts and abou the same level of reliability.
As for 1x vs 2x, Both work, both have their benefits and drawbacks, I´m not sure I´d want to try being a prick about either choice these days. Perhaps it´s better to just think about what you want to use a given bike for, and select 1x or 2x based more on the use case than what everyone else is doing and your desire to be part of the in/out-group dejour...
Every time I come to throw another bike together I find myself looking at the cost of a leccy group, then I look at the price of a mechanical group, and the answer is self evident, the difference in price means more money for other parts and abou the same level of reliability.
I bought a new road bike in 2022 and was seriously considering Di2 (having used it in the past quite a bit on a loan bike).
But then I bought a lower tier bike with mechanical and used the money I'd saved to have a week's riding holiday in Spain. 🙂
But then I bought a lower tier bike with mechanical and used the money I'd saved to have a week's riding holiday in Spain. 🙂
Did you have enough spare money to pay for the carbon offset as well? 😉
I'm just wondering whether there's anyone who falls into the weird "rides e-bikes" "hates electronic shifting" section of the Venn diagram....
I'm just wondering whether there's anyone who falls into the weird "rides e-bikes" "hates electronic shifting" section of the Venn diagram....
Guilty!
Ebike gives a huge enabling benefit of giving me and other ebike users a needed power boost.
I may be struggling with energy, but I can use manual brifters to change cable tension, resulting in sprocket and chainring changes... Without needing a battery operated mechanism to do it, requiring regular charging. 😉
I'm just wondering whether there's anyone who falls into the weird "rides e-bikes" "hates electronic shifting" section of the Venn diagram....
Me
I still don't really understand what problem it fixes either, seems like a huge amount of money and extra potential for failure for what exactly, an absence of cables?
I don't have electronic gears on any bike, but...
* Remote shift buttons (e.g. if you run tri bars)
* Reduced fatigue (I've had shifting RSI on some multi-day rides)
* No dirt ingress into cables affecting shifting performance
* Should be more tolerant of mis-aligned hangers
I don’t get the weird anger people seem to have towards charging batteries
I dont think anyones got any anger towards it, but when manafacturers dont seem to be making traditional format bikes anymore, its a bit annoying.
I like bikes because i can look after it myself. I guess im a minority market, that wants their gear cables on the outside of the frame.
I want to be able to fix (or bodge) mechanicals or crash damage trail side without junking a £400 mech (which is too much money for a weekend warrior, no matter how you cut it)
I dont want to be restricted to Halford specials because the proper brands have all gone electronic.
My shopping bike has a deore rear mech, xt front mech and shifters. It has enough gear range to use it for touring.
I am now faced with Clues or some crap like that to build a similar bike. They seem to have eliminated choice, as I won't want a bike with a £300 rear mech locked up outside the shops especially as you can nick it with one hex key.
Introducing SRAM Premium. For only £5.99 a month* you get access to shifts twice as fast as SRAM Regular as well as a comprehensive download of which gears you use the most.
*For the first 6 months, £12.99 a month thereafter.
Amateur stuff. No 52t until you unlock it via the Premium subscription.
I want a gravel bike to be something you can jump on and just ride, and ride, and ride... preferably for as long and far as possible. I'm curious to try the new wireless but my observations are 1. the battery life seems quite short for multi-day exploring in the boonies and 2. its heavy. I've just ordered a new gravel frame and as its fairly customisable have gone for mechanical but future-proofed to ensure a fully wireless setup will be clean too. Would hazard a guess that mechanical options will be around for long enough for availability not to be a concern, take Shimano's non-adoption of UDH as a good sign for us non tech-fetishist types.