[Closed] The fact that I am still alive

you will bounce back mate, strength of a bloke is that mate, and you have it.

good luck.

It must be an emotional time for you all.  We are all thankful that you are still with us and are hoping for a good recovery...

Do you remember exactly how it happened?

I remember my head hitting the wall first, and then my body hitting the ground. The neurologist said that, if it wasn’t for that piece of polystyrene, I would  be dead.

6 pages, TJ will argue you wouldn't have crashed without the helmet, GeeX will blame you for being a poor rider.

A bit of gaffer tape and a polish and that helmet will be as good as new 😎

6 pages, TJ will argue you wouldn’t have crashed without the helmet, GeeX will blame you for being a poor rider.

I'll add that the doctor blokey is likely talking pish

Interesting how helmets always crack but show hardly any crushing of the EPS (which is how it's meant to absorb energy).

How are you doing OP?

SR, I think your reaction is entirely natural and all part of dealing with the traumatic experience.

Considering the crash that helmet looks remarkably unmarked...I'd have thought it would have looked much worse. Obviously doing it's job.

Obviously doing it’s job.

Doesn't look like it's absorbed much energy to me, as above.

The helmet lulled you into a false sense of immortality and encouraged you to ride beyond your skill level, thus resulting in a crash. Obvious cause is obvious.

(seriously though, crack on and get strong again, and keep wearing helmets!)

Interesting how helmets always crack but show hardly any crushing of the EPS (which is how it’s meant to absorb energy)

I noticed on my last offroad off, where I came down sideways and thumped my head quite hard, there was no cracking, and no deformation, so other than protecting against scrapes, I wonder how much useful impact protection I actually got. I know that people talk about internal deformation that is not visible, but the helmet structure looked completely unchanged. I think it would be quite difficult to deform the polystyrene internally without displaying some sort of external change in the shape.

I had a somewhat less bad accident last year that involved me hitting the road head first after a car turned right across me. It will take time to get better, but you will get better. My helmet was smashed similarly, and I felt very odd for a long time afterwards.

I’ll add that the doctor blokey is likely talking pish

Based on what?

Interesting how helmets always crack but show hardly any crushing of the EPS (which is how it’s meant to absorb energy).

Based on what, again?

It took energy to crack the lid, right?  So that energy didn't go into the OP's brain.  I think your understanding of the engineering involved here is highly shaky. The EPS can absorb energy by elastic or plastic deformation, or it can crack.  You can't look at that picture and say the helmet did nothing.

Also, from an anecdotal persepective having hit my head on lots of things lots of times: to say that having a few inches of semi-soft padding between my skull and a hard object has no effect is frankly ludicrous.

Doesn’t look like it’s absorbed much energy to me, as above.

I know that, no matter what experience I - or anyone else has - the Great Helmet Debate will rage on.

This seems a bit extreme, though, cynic-al, considering I hit a stone wall head-first at approximately 45 kms/hr, and ended up with 4 broken vertebrae, 6 broken ribs, and a collapsed lung.

i think, since you have said what you have, though, it would be worth asking a materials expert or structural engineer just how that particular form of polystyrene reacts to force and compression.

Until then, however, I can only declare what happened and what the consequences were.

considering I hit a stone wall head-first at approximately 45 kms/hr, and ended up with 4 broken vertebrae, 6 broken ribs, and a collapsed lung.

And presumably NOT a fractured skull.

Even aside from the overall energy absorbtion and reduction of G forces on the brain, any small stick-out bit of rock in that wall could have been driven into his skull due to the hugely increased pressure due to small area.  The helmet would have distributed that pressure across his whole head.

I have looked long and hard at those photos and I think it was more to do with those lucky World champ colours than the helmet 😉

Heal well Saxon

or

Go back in that time machine and move the wall.

Go back in that time machine and move the wall.

Or brake earlier!

Perfectly normal to feel like that Saxon, glad to hear you're recovering well.

I know that people talk about internal deformation that is not visible, but the helmet structure looked completely unchanged.

See the big crack in the helmet?  Glad you were wearing one OP.

Interesting how helmets always crack but show hardly any crushing of the EPS (which is how it’s meant to absorb energy).

True, but then it's both spreading the force over a larger area to reduce the pressure, and absorbing the energy.

So a big force on a small area (like hitting a stone in a dry stone wall) would crush a small bit on the outside, but an equal volume of material on the inside over a larger area.

I don't think the cracks are evidence it's not doing its job, they're evidence that the whole helmets deformed quite considerably, bear in mind that some of the energy would be absorbed in plastic compressive deformation which would partially rebound and show very little evidence, but any tensile deformation would stretch it, then crack which obviously is more evident.

[edit] others said it while i was typing.

Thanks, @Drac.

@molgrips, as you have rightly said before, I have taken many descents more quickly than perhaps I should have. Unfortunately in this instance, I know that I was going far too quickly for the conditions. To be frank, the descent was so sharp and short, no matter how much braking I had have undertaken while in motion, there is no way I could have stopped. I honestly suspect that I should not even have <i>begun</i> the descent at the speed I did.

My 12 year old came off his road bike after a touch of wheels.

The polystyrene was half the thickness on the right temple relative to the untouched left temple. One very minor crack of no real depth. So helmets do compress.

His safety glasses took a battering too, and he broke a finger.

Straight down to A&E with concussion and his memory of that day is vague.

But a few weeks later he’s back on the bike.

Based on what?

I think the question is how the Neurologist can determine sometime would definitely have died without a helmet, by looking at the helmet. How would he work that out?

See the big crack in the helmet?

And if you are still not convinced of the relevance of that big crack I suggest you get an old helmet and smash it against the ground, it is amazing how hard you need to hit it to break it,

Got to be due to a bit of “jeeeze, I coulddda died” post crash reaction eh, only natural and nature’s way of reminding you you are a human being dressed in flesh to stop your innards from sploshing on the floor and that you’ve a family and people in your life that are immensely important to you, and you to them.

Follow the feelings, don’t get morbid, but do experience them.. it’ll be good for you.

Nice lid BTW, when did you win the Worlds ??

🤣👍

Hang in there tough guy... of course, I wouldn't normally say that to a roadie, but fair play, seems like you're doing grand having read the extent of your injuries!!

Whilst I can appreciate some folk are a touch incredulous that a flimsy bit of polystyrene can save lives, bear in mind that polystyrene expands considerably after the compression of impact...

Having seen multiple folk knocked unconscious in full face helmets (including one that left a significant crack in the chin piece), I'd hate to think what might have happened without the damping provided by the helmet.

You're bound to be shaken up, I still get twitch riding round the bend on our estate where I came off on ice, and my injuries were far, far, far less than yours (and I wasn't wearing a helmet). Just go with it.

Rainbow stripes though? I had no idea that you were a current or ex-World Champion 😉

I think the question is how the Neurologist can determine sometime would definitely have died without a helmet, by looking at the helmet. How would he work that out?

Experience quite possibly.  But AFAIK it's a reasonably well defined scale of G force experienced by the brain vs damage to brain.  So if you have an idea of how much G force a helmet might remove from the equation, you then could add that onto the G force likely experienced by the patient's brain based on symptoms, and come to a rough conclusion.

I think there have probably been a few studies on this.  It does piss me off a bit when armchair experts think they know more than those who do this stuff for a living, based on an over-inflated sense of their own intelligence.

when did you win the Worlds ??

I asked him but he was pretty coy about it.  Might've been some time in the 30s in Belgium based on the rest of his clobber 🙂

See the big crack in the helmet?  Glad you were wearing one OP.

I think you misread my account of my own accident. There was no cracking, visible deformation or any shape change in my helmet, but I hit the ground hard enough to get quite a sore head.

Based on what?

Did the doc have data on the speed and nature of the impact, what the injury would have been without the helmet, cos he has all the data on that in ths scenario etc?

any small stick-out bit of rock in that wall could have been driven into his skull

See above, and what evidence of any rock is there on the helmet?

Based on what, again?

Erm, the picture of the cracked helmet that shows no signs of compression?

You can’t look at that picture and say the helmet did nothing.

Erm, I didn't. Calm down!

EDIT

It does piss me off a bit when armchair experts think they know more than those who do this stuff for a living, based on an over-inflated sense of their own intelligence.

Atcha! So many holes in what you are saying, it's laughable.

The helmet absorbs some energy during its compression but the most critical thing is that it spreads the acceleration out over time / distance so instead of getting say 100g for 1/100th of a second you get 10g for 1/10th of a second ( Illustrative figures only)  Same total decelleration but stretched out over time

The problem with the "helmet saved my life" stories is that its almost always a gross overestimate of the protective effect of the helmet.  they simply are unable due to science to change events that much  😉

In this case to say - the helmet  saved me from a brain injury would seem about right.  If you would have died without the helmet you would have a serious brain injury with it.  As you apparently have no brain injury then the impact force was not enough for a fatal brain injury without the hat

I am interested in this

"To be frank, the descent was so sharp and short, no matter how much braking I had have undertaken while in motion, there is no way I could have stopped."

Bad brakes?  Lack of tyre grip?  Relying on rear brake only?

I have never been in a situation where I cannot slow and stop on a hill.  I just cannot see how this would happen

I ask 'cos I want to add to my knowledge not to denigrate saxonrider

You had a really bad crash because you had World Champ stripes on your helmet. It's not allowed.

I look at your helmet and the first thing that springs into my mind is how your egg shell like skull would have coped if it didn't have that magic few cm of polystyrene sat on the top of it? Thank you for the real time confirmation of why I think I'll keep wearing mine on every ride.

Ride the emotions and get well soon. This time will pass.

In this case to say – the helmet  saved me from a brain injury would seem about right.  If you would have died without the helmet you would have a serious brain injury with it.  As you apparently have no brain injury then the impact force was not enough for a fatal brain injury without the hat

Wow. Said with such confidence.

Cat like hey?

So down to 8 lives? or can you lick your own ring now?

Given a choice of banging into a wall with or with out a helmet I'll pick a helmet every day

GeeX will blame you for being a poor rider.

No I won't. Shit happens. And as some one who's suffered well over double figues in concussions throughout in my life I'm not really interested in entering into yet another stupid debate about whether a piece of polystyrene saved someone's life or not. or what a hospital worker who wasn't even there reckons.

Get well soon Saxon dude. Hope your confidence eventually returns. Bikes are awesome!

Bad brakes? Lack of tyre grip? Relying on rear brake only?

Road bike, steep road and wet leaves IIRC.

 So if you have an idea of how much G force a helmet might remove from the equation, you then could add that onto the G force likely experienced by the patient’s brain based on symptoms, and come to a rough conclusion.

So estimate 1 + estimate 2 = rough conclusion?

A rough conclusion is probably fair enough, but there is so much guesswork involved in that equation that "you would definitely be dead" seems a very definitive conclusion.

I think the question is how the Neurologist can determine sometime would definitely have died without a helmet, by looking at the helmet. How would he work that out?

I can only imagine two things: 1. experience, and 2. knowledge of the forces required to have damaged me as badly as a i was, and what that damage would have been like without a protective barrier.

I mean, really... take a hammer or cricket bat or something else, and hit an old helmet hard enough to compress it. Now imagine that exact same force coming down on your forehead. Doesn’t it make you wince? I can’t imagine anyone surviving such blunt force trauma with no protective layer.

As for the World Champion stripes, I get to wear them for one of two reasons: a) my wife and children gave me the helmet as a gift, and thought that “daddy would like the stripes”, or b) my time machine indeed enabled me to travel back to inter-war Belgium where the superior technology of my modern bike enabled me to take the title. Both are happy options, so, I’ll let you decide which you like best.

Atcha! So many holes in what you are saying, it’s laughable.

To be fair, your argument basically revolves around the assertion that if every one of your assumptions is correct, then someone else is wrong.

On the other hand it's probably fairer to say:

If the helmet has reduced the force on SR's head (which it has) then that's force that his brain wasn't subject to.

If the helmet reduced the pressure of a sticky out bit of wall (your confidence that that didn't happen on a drystone wall is laughable) then it reduced the likelihood of a skull injury.

Now seeing as we know he hit a dry stone wall wall pretty hard, and the helmet is pretty messed up both of the above seem quite likely.

Of course if SR did in fact hit a completely smooth bit of wall, at a lower speed than estimated and it was only a tangential blow and the helmet was just a con by Catlike to part the gullible with their money and wasn't really constructed in such a way to minimise the force on SR's head, and if the neurologist has zero experience of other head injuries with and without helmets and has never read any literature on the subject. If all those assumptions are true then you're probably right.

Nonsense TINAS, I'm not even going to bother.

I mean, really… take a hammer or cricket bat or something else, and hit an old helmet hard enough to compress it. Now imagine that exact same force coming down on your forehead. Doesn’t it make you wince?

Spot on. I once broke up an old helmet by smashing it down on a fence post. The amount of force it took to crack it was amazing. It was very sobering. I suspect most people don't realise ho much force it takes to break a lid, force that would otherwise be going through your head.

I expect a lot of people don't how much force it takes to kill someone by a blow to the head (and that it's way higher).

I think you misread my account of my own accident. There was no cracking, visible deformation or any shape change in my helmet, but I hit the ground hard enough to get quite a sore head.

Okay, that's great.  But your not the OP?

Wow. Said with such confidence.

But no expertise at all to back that level of confidence.  This is STW, not a neuroscience convention after all.

 they simply are unable due to science to change events that much

ISTR it's a fine line over which G forces cause serious injury.  As you rightly say the helmet slows your brain down, so it's experiencing say 20G instead of 60G, where 60G is the threshold for injury.  You gave the right description then the wrong conclusion in your own post.

Erm, the picture of the cracked helmet that shows no signs of compression?

It does to me.  Lots of cracks.  How did it crack if it didn't compress?

It does to me. Lots of cracks. How did it crack if it didn’t compress?

You can see the EPS is compressed in the pic? Why are you being so tediously personal/pedantic/Big-Hitter? Have I wee'd on your ships recently?

I also broke up an old helmet to have it take up less space in the bin. Or at least, I tried.  I stamped the shit out of it and it cracked but didn't smash.  And it deformed elastically in the process 🙂

You can see the EPS is compressed in the pic? Why are you being so tediously personal/pedantic/Big-Hitter?

You are talking about plastic compression, right? I'm saying that elastic deformation occurred.  You know the difference right?

Have I wee’d on your ships recently?

No, you're talking bollocks, and that's why I'm taking you up on it.  It's not personal 🙂

I expect a lot of people don’t how much force it takes to kill someone by a blow to the head (and that it’s way higher).

A Big Hit?

Wow. Said with such confidence.

But no expertise at all to back that level of confidence.  This is STW, not a neuroscience convention after all.

Actually as I have read a lot of the literature on helmets, foillowed a lot of the science, understand how they work ( which its clear most folk do not) and understand the mechanisms of brain injury I do have some knowledge on this

Phew! Tough crowd in here this aft 🙂

Get well soon SR.

In this case to say – the helmet  saved me from a brain injury would seem about right.

A one that may have killed him.

EDIT damn HTML formatting.

This link has a table about 1/3 of the way down showing injury severity vs G force:  http://www.internationalbrain.org/examination-of-bi-thresholds-in-terms-of-the-severity-of-head-motion-and-the-brain-stresses/

If you cna reduce G force by half, you could drastically reduce the severity.  And given that a helmet is quite a bit thicker than the brain membrane, I can see that would be entirely plausible.  I couldn't find numbers on how much helmets reduce brain G force though.

You are talking about plastic compression, right? I’m saying that elastic deformation occurred.  You know the difference right?

I do, yes, in the cirumstances it's obvious what I was talking about and you are just trolling with this.

I'm not the only one querying how a doctor can know whether a helmet saved a life from looking at it, you says his "experience" is enough. No comeback on the other points at all.

a) my wife and children gave me the helmet as a gift, and thought that “daddy would like the stripes”,

Option a) is well cooler.

It’s becoming the post that keeps giving this one 🤣😜

I’m not the only one querying how a doctor can know whether a helmet saved a life from looking at it, you says his “experience” is enough. No comeback on the other points at all.

I'm also not saying he can know for sure.  I'm saying he probably can have a reasonable guess.  But that's not what I'm calling you out for.

I'm calling you out because you said that the helmet looked as if it did nothing, when I think it's pretty clear it did a lot.

It does piss me off a bit when armchair experts think they know more than those who do this stuff for a living, based on an over-inflated sense of their own intelligence.

Somewhere in Canada, Alanis Morissette just exploded.

Okay, that’s great.  But your not the OP?

No, you are correct, I am not the OP.

I wasn't making any comment on the OP's helmet. I was responding to the subsequent anecdote that cracking without obvious deformation is often observed, with my own anecdote about seeing neither crack or deformation after hitting my own helmet hard on the ground, which caused me to ponder how effectively my helmet had mediated the impact of my crash. One of the following posts suggested I had failed to see the crack in the OP's helmet, so I responded to this post to clarify that I was referring to the condition of my own helmet after my accident, and not referring to the condition or efficacy of the OP's helmet.

I hope this explains what I have written, but happy to provide further explanation if I have not clarified things.

Nonsense TINAS, I’m not even going to bother.

Bayesian probability, you're arguing that if every bit of evidence is incorrect then your alternative hypothesis is correct. Which is a valid line of reasoning.However with each extra bit of evidence your hypothesis is less and less likely.  Everyone else is arguing that even if SR's account, the smashed helmet and the neurologists opinion are individually fallible and should not be give much weight, collectively they point to the conclusion that SR would have been in worse shape had he not worn a helmet.

I’m not the only one querying how a doctor can know whether a helmet saved a life from looking at it

I’m just guessing here but I’d imagine that the doctor was basing his assessment on his observation of SRs injuries  and an assessment of the circumstances under which they were inflicted rather than an examination of the actual helmet?

I have a selection of cracked and broken  helmets that I’ve been wearing during crashes over the years. I use them as hanging baskets, a sobering reminder of how many substantial blows to the head I would have had if it wasn’t for wearing them.

No, you are correct, I am not the OP.

So nothing to do with the OP?

Phew! Tough crowd in here this aft.

Nah,it's all show 😉

Ywan

you said that the helmet looked as if it did nothing

No I didn't

Bayesian probability, you’re arguing that if every bit of evidence is incorrect then your alternative hypothesis is correct.

No I'm not.

SR would have been in worse shape had he not worn a helmet.

I've not argued against that either

he doctor was basing his assessment on ... an assessment of the circumstances under which they were inflicted

So he has somehow been able to assess impact speed, angle, surface type, measured the brain deceleration? From looking at the helmet or the evidence "I rode into a wall"?

So he has somehow been able to assess impact speed, angle, surface type, measured the brain deceleration? From looking at the helmet or the evidence “I rode into a wall”?

No, he'd read the notes taken during his the OPs history taking.

Awesome internet experts knowing more than real experts and argue the point is awesome. Might read this thread again just for the awesomeness.

If you would have died without the helmet you would have a serious brain injury with it.  As you apparently have no brain injury then the impact force was not enough for a fatal brain injury without the hat

Bravo.

When we all learn the error of our ways and just stop listening to Experts once and for all.

Who needs experts with all their knowledge and years of relevant experience 🙄

“Some bloke on the internet” is always available to point out the obvious truth the so called “experts” always miss.

I honestly suspect that I should not even have <i>begun</i> the descent at the speed I did.

It's a scary descent, even in good conditions. I've had a go at going fast down it a couple of times, still never averaged more than 20mph. It also sucks you in at the top with a steady slope and then the hairpins appear very quickly. If you don't know it and are a confident descender then you can easily go into it way too fast. Easy mistake to make so I wouldn't dwell on it. Just shit luck.

Somewhere in Canada, Alanis Morissette just exploded.

Funny, but you know what?  I'm not the one making absolute proclamations.  I'm just discussing what we can see.  Which is fine.  If I were dealing out certainties I'd be just like Al wouldn't I?  But I'm not saying the same thing.

So nothing to do with the OP?

What is nothing to do with the OP?

If I were dealing out certainties I’d be just like Al wouldn’t I?

What certainties am I dealing out then?

Um...

Sorry to intrude on all the cock fighting. But if you take a look at pictures 4 and 5 on SRs original post, it's pretty clear permanent deformation has occured. You might need to pinch zoom at touch.

As you were.

Wow. It's like wearing a pair of very familiar but uncomfortable slippers this thread. I'm relieved the OP is on the mend and I agree, you can't dwell on a simple mistake like that. We all make them, normally without any consequence. I'm glad your head is in a better condition that it would have been without a helmet.

Whoever said after a crash, 'Well, at least I wasn't wearing one of those helmets - that could have been much worse'?

No-one, ever.

Yeah I've already checked out of this one.

Hard armour doesn't have to absorb any energy to "work", it can also have an effect by spreading force out so energy is absorbed by a larger amount of body tissue, none of which is subjected to such high forces/pressures/accelerations as a smaller area of tissue would have in the absence of the armour.   So in the case of a helmet you get a sore neck but not a cracked skull plus local brain damage.  In the case of body armour you get sore ribs but don't get stabbed by pointy sticks or torn by sharp rocks.

Yeah I’ve already checked out of this one.

LOL/raiseeyebrows etc

I struggle with long sentences and I'm sure it's been said above but it doesn't look to me (also from your injuries) that your head/helmet took a great deal of the impact. I expect it helped a bit, but so would cycling a bit more cautiously!

When I did an involuntary header many years ago, the forehead section of the helmet that had directly hit the ground was substantially crushed. I was lightly concussed.

Funny, but you know what?  I’m not the one making absolute proclamations.  I’m just discussing what we can see.  Which is fine.  If I were dealing out certainties I’d be just like Al wouldn’t I?  But I’m not saying the same thing.

To be fair, it was more of a general comment, than a comment on your contribution to this particular thread, which has been relatively sensible.  You do deserve though it, but are far from the only one 😜.

Its very clear that very few of the folk commenting understand how helmets work at all.

As for medical opinion - I suggest you look at the BMJ debates on it.  Medical opinion is very divided.

I have read a lot of the data and research on helmets,. Followed the debate in the medical world on it, worked in head injury rehab.  Not an appeal to authority but simply stating my position that I have some knowledge