The E-bike Is a Monstrosity

E-bikes continue, and worsen, that disorder by jumbling up aspects of bicycles and motorcycles.

Presumably that's an American take, where (as I understand it) most ebikes come with a throttle, and don't need to be pedalled at all?

Unlike here where - in theory - they're supposed to only be pedal-assist. But you do see a lot of people trundling around without pedalling anyway. Often at 30mph. In fact in my area I'd say they're probably the majority of the ebikes I see!

So the biggest issue with e bikes is ontological 🤣

Easy money, innit? I think he can hate everything and everyone on cue.

https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2021/09/why-are-ebooks-so-terrible/620068/
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/04/slushie-icee-company-quiktrip-freezoni/629728/

Aye - he's just an attention-seeking journalist who has found the latest thing that will attract attention.

Ignore him, ride your bikes and ebikes and let's see how things REALLY work out :o)

PS: I don't own an ebike

Oh, thought this was another Haibike thread.
Carry on.

In Europe i see many ebikes and no illegal ones and no conflict or issues as the vast majority are ridden by older folk and of course in mainland Europe a bike is considered a normal everyday mode of transport

US ebikes are 1000w not 250. Thats their main issue

I did see loads of illegal ones in Cardiff being ridden by delivery riders and badly ridden at that

The commuter sneers at the spinner, who pedals pointlessly to nowhere. The leisure-rider spurs the Lycra-racer, who endangers pedestrians and inspires drivers to hate cyclists.

Well, I think of "the Ebike" as something to enjoy riding offroad, so I don't think his ohsoclever article resonates with me in the slightest. I have just sold my ebike though 😀

Ped-elec has kept me riding for 2 years.

Huge assistance if like me, you were once fit and able-bodied and now need assistance.

So the biggest issue with e bikes is ontological 🤣

Yes, I'm going to use the "Something is ontologically off with (insert controversial technology), which time and adoption alone can’t resolve," line down the pub next time someone disagrees with me about anything at all.

So the biggest issue with e bikes is ontological 🤣

Spot on.

Thats their main issue

And may soon be ours, as there is plenty of talk of us changing our rules to closer match the USA, and move away from Europe... (because, you know, we'd rather have a biking culture like the Americans, not the French, or the Dutch, or...)

Something is ontologically off with e-bikes

You ****ing wot mate?

I did see loads of illegal ones in Cardiff being ridden by delivery riders and badly ridden at that

Yep, very popular among Deliveroo riders round here (Bristol) too. But also among lads in hoodies who want to go really really fast (without pedalling)

The guy's a tool churning out a basic 'this new thing sucks' article for easy clicks.

'legal' E-bikes are very much 'cycling' without the slog' and therefore tend to be ridden very much like other bicycles. They're a good thing and an interesting addition to the transport mix with massive potential.

However.... I do feel like there's a reckoning coming regarding the home brew Chinese conversion kit specials that happily do 30MPH+ with no pedaling required, usually attached to BSO's with nowhere near sufficient brakes or tyres for that kind of use. Add in the factor of them being erratically piloted by a Deliveroo rider or a callow yoof with a spliff hanging out their mouth, no lights, no helmet etc.

Have a nasty feeling that we're almost overdue a Daily Mail moral panic about these and I just hope that legal E-bikes and their riders don't get caught up in it when it comes.

I love seeing the number of older people now cycling around Brighton, which is mostly due to ebikes!

I think tiny electric vehicles are the answer to many urban transport problems. Bikes are amazing town transport if you live somewhere flat but they're far more like going for a run than a walk once you add proper hills - and most people wouldn't choose to run between destinations when commuting/shopping/etc.

I've seen Deliveroo and similar riders on throttle-controlled e-bike conversions around Edinburgh too. Though I suppose we should perhaps start putting some effort into calling them something else to try and prevent the inevitable backlash affecting pedal-assist e-bikes too. I would guess that their actual legal status is as unregistered electric motorcycles but it'll be an uphill struggle to convince people that's what they are because they are based on and look like bicycles.

The article sounds like it's been written by someone who is not happy that e-bikes can't be fitted into the author's existing view of How Things Are and they aren't happy about maybe needing to update it.

I can imagine a product that will replace most standard e-bikes in due course, but he's clearly just click-baiting in general.

Have a nasty feeling that we’re almost overdue a Daily Mail moral panic about these and I just hope that legal E-bikes and their riders don’t get caught up in it when it comes.

Legally/regs-wise they won't but yeah, the Mail will get some headlines out of it before going back to all their other tired old themes. WGAS : )

And may soon be ours, as there is plenty of talk of us changing our rules to closer match the USA, and move away from Europe… (because, you know, we’d rather have a biking culture like the Americans, not the French, or the Dutch, or…)

The ideal could be the E-bikes classes that are legal in the USA with the culture and infrastructure of Europe. Cars can exceed speed limits, why should all e-bikes be restricted to only 15mph before becoming motorbikes? Either restrict all vehicles or none (I'd rather they were all restricted but you'd need geofencing for it to have any value with cars)

I’ve seen Deliveroo and similar riders on throttle-controlled e-bike conversions around Edinburgh too. Though I suppose we should perhaps start putting some effort into calling them something else

Easy - 'unregistered motorbikes'

The problem is that it doesn't really matter, the average Mail reader / unthinker just sees either 'someone on a bike' or 'someone like me in a car'.

As a mode of transport, they are replacing the moped, often on repurposed old bikes.

I love it. Quieter and less pollution than a moped, lighter and better at filtering so just as quick in a city. My pizza arrives hot and the rider has annoyed some DM readers who are stuck in traffic, it's great.

I think the 'leisure' aspect of E-bikes that we look at is a niche in the grand scheme of things. As a utility vehicle, they are eclipsing light motorcycle sales, and they are green. Win.

Personally I find them annoying at trail centres because they overtake me on the climbs then hold me up on the descents, but so what. It's leisure, live and let live.

Unlike here where – in theory – they’re supposed to only be pedal-assist.

my father-in-law recently bought a folding ebike with a throttle, i think, or not restricted, i can’t recall exactly. when i questioned its legality he said the law had changed.

is this true?

edit: i have answered my own question. the law has not changed

And may soon be ours, as there is plenty of talk of us changing our rules to closer match the USA, and move away from Europe… (because, you know, we’d rather have a biking culture like the Americans, not the French, or the Dutch, or…)

Where are you hearing this talk as not come across this? What’s being proposed?

“ my father-in-law recently bought a folding ebike with a throttle”

A throttle isn’t illegal but it has to go with a pedalling sensor and a 15.5mph speed cut-out to be legal.

A throttle isn’t illegal but it has to go with a pedalling sensor and a 15.5mph speed cut-out to be legal.

ok. thanks

In the UK the throttle has to cut out at 3.7 mph then pedal assist up to cut out at 15.5mph. Very confusing.

TBH I don't entirely hate the 1000W delivery riders, they fill a niche between mopeds and bikes, they basically emissions free, cheap and popular, they're what utility cycling should be if you disregard the idea of cycling for fitness. I don't even mind them on cycle paths/lanes when ridden responsibly (IIRC the equivalent EU classification for 25mph e-bikes requires registration, although thin end of the wedge so I'd rather get buzzed by the just eat guy occasionally than have to get a bike registration). There probably isn't a quicker way of getting around a town/city?

I still think e-MTB's are an abomination though.

I love seeing the number of older people now cycling around Brighton, which is mostly due to ebikes!

Same here around Calderdale. Any trip over the higher smaller roads around here and you’ll meet some old folks enjoying the views, it’s ace.

Cars can exceed speed limits, why should all e-bikes be restricted to only 15mph before becoming motorbikes?

I’m not sure what your point is. Cars and motorbikes are much more heavily regulated than ebikes. Insurance, tests, licence, tax, MOTs, speed cameras… and ebikes aren’t restricted, you can pedal ‘em up to any speed you fancy.

It's a sort of interesting article, seems to ramble between practical and safety issues and the cultural perceptions of various different modes of transport.

I'm just back from a Holiday in the US where I got to see a snapshot of "urban cycling" in New York (Manhattan) and in San Francisco. I definitely recognised this point:

Walking the streets of New York City, it now feels just as likely that you might get mowed down by an e-bike as a taxicab. Elsewhere, the narrow protected lanes and greenway trails built for human-powered bikes—already littered with stroller-pushers and joggers—don’t quite scale to the new swiftness of e-bikes. The pathways and roads themselves, perhaps already unsafe at bike speed due to uneven pavement and poor maintenance, feel even more dangerous on a not-quite-motorcycle.

NY traffic is mostly terrifying, admittedly it's an environment already way over the capacity it was designed for in terms of vehicle volume. E-Bikes seem pretty popular there and add to the mix by letting their users exploit the lack of functional traffic management. This means the "bike lanes" are a mixture of relatively laid back conventional bike users and impatient E-bikers/Scooterists mostly operating their bikes in twist'n'go mode and chopping in and out of the motorised traffic, pedestrians and then back into the bike lanes in order to maintain the absolute maximum progress possible (Much like the Deliverooists I see back here in Blighty)...

SF was comparatively Joyous; Cycle lanes seemed pretty spacious, well laid out and managed segregation better while still going where people wanted to get. There also appeared to be fewer E-bikes in use and those that there were, were being used mostly by tourists, the locals seemed to opt more for Road and Gravel bikes.
There was far less chopping in and out of traffic, admittedly there was less traffic to dance about in but the whole transport mix and general feel of the city seemed much better, less stressful, less risk taking but still easy to navigate by whatever means you choose despite being a hillier city...

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of E bikes, but I can't help thinking their "misuse" is really more a symptom of poorly designed transport environments and the prevailing culture rather than a huge flaw with E bikes themselves. Yes users can (and do) defeat the limits on pedelecs to effectively make them into mopeds, but the choice to do that is prompted by the environment they're using it in and the way they've been sold so far, plus the fact that there is apparently zero enforcement anywhere of the rules that apply to the things.

Ultimately they're with us to stay now and lots of people are using them as a way to "hack" urban transport, it's a Moped you don't need to register or do a CBT for, I'd like that to be tackled before it becomes an ingrained thing...

Cars can exceed speed limits, why should all e-bikes be restricted to only 15mph before becoming motorbikes?

I’m not sure what your point is. Cars and motorbikes are much more heavily regulated than ebikes. Insurance, tests, licence, tax, MOTs, speed cameras… and ebikes aren’t restricted, you can pedal ‘em up to any speed you fancy.

I was going to say the point is that powered speed should not define a class of vehicle. An e-bike that goes over 15mph under battery power is classed as a moped or motorbike while cars or motorbikes can be sold capable of going at >2x the NSL, yes they're regulated but not based on speed. But I forgot that mopeds are limited by speed and engine size so that sets e-bikes up as needing to sit below that somehow.

I’ve had an E-bike for a few months, it’s a hybrid with full mudguards, rack, lights etc - brilliant for wizzing down to the shops where I can park right outside, have near enough bought everything I need whilst in the car I’d probably still be going around and around the car park looking for a space. A regular bike would be fine getting there, but the a climb of 10% for over a km on the way back with full panniers is a right lung buster. Means I use the car less/save on petrol etc.

Powered speed being limited for almost entirely unregulated use (borrow one, jump on, ride anywhere, enjoy) makes sense to me. I know people get frustrated by the current limit, but higher limits would need to be paired with more regulation and requirements for riders. And there is already a class of vehicle for electric mopeds… if you need that powered speed, just satisfy the requirements to ride an electric moped and crack on.

Loads of ebikes here in lake garda, from 10 year olds upwards having a great time riding the hills round the lake.
But also many enthusiasts on road and mtb doing it the hard way and still having a great time.

How come ebikes, legal or not, are emissions free? Plenty of emissions are made in construction and also in charging. Yes they are better than a bus but not emissions free.
Isn't it funny how people are selective in their thoughts? I know that they take bugger all in the way of charge but I wonder just how many kilowatts could be not created if there were no mobile phones? Or tellys. Or internet forums. 🙂

The guys a ****, a stupid ****ing ****.

Yeah I agree Kelvin - partly I think a 20-25mph powered e-hybrid shopper is still just an e-hybrid shopper and something that you can hop on and borrow etc, and the point about car speed limits vs NSLs is we trust people to use sense there so why not with e-bikes that could go above the current speed. But perhaps the higher speed wouldn't be much benefit anyway for the uses where e-bikes can make the biggest difference, commuting and errands etc. I'm applying a frustration with unrestricted speed of cars to say e-bikes should be able to go faster but I probably wouldn't have that frustration if I lived in Denmark or Holland.

Yep, very popular among Deliveroo riders round here (Bristol) too. But also among lads in hoodies who want to go really really fast (without pedalling)

The massive batteries gaffer taped onto these bikes are quite funny - reckon someone must be providing a hacking service. More worrying is the pedaless electric 'motorbikes' that there seems to be a gang riding up and down Whiteladies a lot. Often wheelying and must be doing 40 mph. Somone is going to get really hurt.

I’m applying a frustration with unrestricted speed of cars to say e-bikes

Again. Licenses. And points. And speed cameras. Speed awareness courses.

And powered 25mph bikes are very different to powered 15mph bikes. Especially in urban areas. Would need more regulation than pedal cycle equivalence.

Again. Licenses. And points. And speed cameras. Speed awareness courses.

I mean physical restrictions, unrestricted as in it's left to the individual to moderate and regs to control - it's not limited by the machine itself. The UK does a P-P job of restricting driver speed but that's OT.

And powered 25mph bikes are very different to powered 15mph bikes. Especially in urban areas. Would need more regulation than pedal cycle equivalence.

It'd depend on how you used that additional speed, I could use a Focus ST the same way I'd use a Micra. I'd settle on 20mph for e-bikes and they'd not really need to change from what they are currently. They're road legal vehicles and that's the lowest road speed limit. Anyway, the class is for 25kph and so be it : )

In the UK the throttle has to cut out at 3.7 mph then pedal assist up to cut out at 15.5mph. Very confusing.

I wasn't previously aware of the 3.7mph throttle cut out - is that for a 'walking assist' mode if you're pushing the bike?

My F-in-L has a (I think) 750w mid-motor conversion added to his hardtail. Utterly ridiculous. Thankfully he's stopped using it in favour of a proper/legal Cube e-bike he's since bought. Maybe I should stick an ad to sell it via the local takeaways 🙂 (being serious though, seeing how the local Deliveroo-type folk ride these dodgy conversions around my way I'm surprised they've not taken someone out yet).

mattsccm
Free Member
How come ebikes, legal or not, are emissions free? Plenty of emissions are made in construction and also in charging. Yes they are better than a bus but not emissions free.
Isn’t it funny how people are selective in their thoughts? I know that they take bugger all in the way of charge but I wonder just how many kilowatts could be not created if there were no mobile phones? Or tellys. Or internet forums. 🙂

It's all relative, as I pointed out last time carbon bikes came under fire from the expert handwringers claiming that somehow metal bikes were better for the planet.

A new bike has a lower carbon footprint than a return trip to Glentress from England. It's barely worth considering whether it's metal or plastic (or in this case electric) over its lifetime especially as in the case of utility riders it's actually replacing fossil fuel powered miles in most cases.

This one is a monstrosity...

2 out of 3 of us spilt blood trying to ride it.

The USA has it right IMO. Much state variation but most commonly 3 classes. Class 1 pedal assistance and a 20mpb cutout. would work well with the 20mph zones being brought in here.

I would probably buy one and commute on it instead of using the car.
.
https://quietkat.com/pages/united-states-electric-bike-regulations-guide