[Closed] The 29Gnarr - Genius or insanity?

Genius! All the gear changing benefits of the Alfine without the rotating weight.

if you look realy hard there is someone their without a stupid hat and without a beard kids just have the hats they dont count]

I'm not sure the weight gain of all the 'gubbins' will outweigh the benefits of having a better centre of gravity. The rotating mass thing's a bit of a red herring IMO. But it's an excellent attempt and I applaud their efforts.

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Genius! All the gear changing benefits of the Alfine without the rotating weight.

more about weight balance for me rather than rotating.

rode an alfine shod bike once and it was strange. manualled nice, bunny hopped lack a sack of crap.

Countzero +1 IMO

Agree with CZ on all counts - lots of extra weight for no benefit. Nice execution of a wrongheaded idea though!

Ted has put it here so's the weight is away from the back wheel for when its being jumped/tricked etc, makes sense when you talk to him, and he was still fabbing it at 4am on Friday morning, you've got too applaud someone like that who puts his ideas into practice.

and of course the real new niche of the show was statement mustaches 😉

Ive got some sketches of this idea from a few years ago !!
The difference is that I had the disk fitted to the alfine, belt drive and mine was a 26''. I was going to have it built by Descendence bike but turned out be too complex. Wish I had. Looks lovely!

Fair enough Steve - that makes more sense - didn't realise that was the intended application.

Ted ****ing rocks

I wasn't convinced by the 29Gnar, very heavy engineering to support the alfine, although I liked the concept. The bike for his Mum (white and yellow behind) was beautifully detailed though, as was the frame he had for his girlfriend (I think).

Well I assume a production bike would accommodate the Alfine in the frame without all the hinge and bracket bits. Does it ride/pedal well though?

Why not just mount the hub in an oversize / custom BB shell & drive it directly ? Would need a beefed up interface for the "crank" bearings but that could be overcome...I think... 🙂

10/10 though, I'm in aw of folk like him. Will 100% make the effort to go to the show next year.

too much torque at the cranks for an internal geared bottom bracket.
I imagine the cost/ weight of one that was strong enough would be prohibitive.

He made his own rear hub for that bike from scratch with lathes and drills - no cnc - disc mounts both sides. Ted really does rule. The other bike on his stand was a beautifully detailed, clean-lined town bike he made for his mum. 2 bikes - one extreme to the other. Talented guy.

I listened to Ted talking about some of the detail of the bike behind in that picture. Some of it was genius. Top bloke and a true engineer.

looks terrible really tho dont it?

and it's now 7 inches higher than the hub.

Would an EBB be a better way to tension the chainring-Alfine chain, and have a fixed Alfine rather than a sliding bracket?

I thought he had engineered a very clever and involved solution for a problem that only sort of exists.

For that I applaud him and his bike! 😀
Up with this sort of thing.

To be honest, it's been done many times before. Google Rohloff hub as gearbox to see plenty of examples. Typically with FS bikes, where the hub tends to be hidden or better integrated into the frame.

I don't think it works with simple Ti tube profiles, personally. And I have an Alfine bike.

I love stuff like this, in any discipline. It's exploring the potentiality of a bike design rather than saying this is the way to do it. It's not mainstream and does not profess to be. Good work chap.

Looks good imo, would like to see a closer look at in person. Couple more pics over on [url= http://bikemagic.com/gear/bespoked-bristol-2012-curtis-engima-29-gnar-qoroz-mawis-and-more.html ]bike magic[/url] I see

The back wheel is on backwards and driven by an Alfine chainring up in the triangle, and a chain, all on the wrong side. The cranks drive the Alfine from the normal side via a short chain. So the disk brake mount has had to switch sides.

Forgive me for possibly being a bit clueless on this, but wouldn't it have been a shitload less faffing about to just put the crank on the other side?

Forgive me for possibly being a bit clueless on this, but wouldn't it have been a shitload less faffing about to just put the crank on the other side?

Only if you don't mind your pedals unscrewing 🙂

Its nothing new though is it?

Nicolai G-Boxx (the original was based on a (ohloff Speedhub) has the drive on the left, and the chain on the right.
The Zerode has a Alfine hub mounted above the BB (with more conventional chain on the right)
The Pinion is even available for hardtails...

Don't get me wrong, I think frame mounted gear-boxes are great, centreing the weight etc. And basing it on exisiting mass-produced equpiment will keep costs down. BUT, the Alfine (and original Rohloff-based G-Boxx) were designed for hub use so use epicyclic gears, so its not perfect.

Pinion is by far the best idea as its designed specifically for a purpose. And its cheaper then the G-Boxx. (still bloomin' pricey though)

Forgive me for possibly being a bit clueless on this, but wouldn't it have been a shitload less faffing about to just put the crank on the other side?

Only if you don't mind your pedals unscrewing

Tandem cranks?

Nicolai G-Boxx (the original was based on a (ohloff Speedhub) has the drive on the left, and the chain on the right.

Riding alongside someone with a Nicolai gearbox bike is odd, because the left-hand chain keeps moving when they freewheel; always seems really strange.

In fact, why did Ted make his own hub? Why not use a fixed hub, and benefit from the freewheel integrated into the Alfine (like the G-Boxx)?

In fact, why did Ted make his own hub?

Because he can? 🙂

I think the hub is fixed; the description I read seemed to be saying it effectively had a 6-bolt disk mount on each side. Sure that a fixed-disk hub would have worked the same though? Maybe there's potentially more force through the sprocket because of the gearing, so it needed a bolt-on sprocket?

Dear god! WTF is wrong with you people? Would you like a shit-load of pointless, unsightly gubbins bunging up your frame, getting in the way, and being ground away by peak district mud?

Or ... OR.... how about this revolutionary concept....

[img] [/img]

I know its going out on a limb, but I reckon it just might work 😉

You mean a slightly different bit of unsightly gubbins, in a more vulnerable location? 🙂

being ground away by peak district mud

😉

Look where all that gubbins is though. Directly in line with all the crap being sprayed off the back tyre. Can you imagine what a peak district winter would do to that lot?

You can tell its been designed by someone who lives in a place where it never rains 🙂

mudguards? And besides, why should it be worse when its on the frame compared to in the wheel? Stop being a naysayer and pissing on new ideas.

Back to my orignal thougts. Nicolai rear hub is suitably mental:

[img] [/img]

So add a full set of mudguards to that lot?

This bikes sure going to be a looker 😯

that does indeed look like a solution in search of a problem. Also not very aesthetically pleasing...

BUT good on him for trying it out - you never know might lead to a breakthough

It does seem like a mildly complicated answer to a problem that doesn't really exist. Got an Alfine'd bike and whilst it might feel slightly different I can't say it holds me back - but I use it as a wheels on the ground mud plugger and I'm a big enough lad to muscle it around. The faff of tensioning 2 chains and extra components to wear does not seem worth the hassle.

You long baggies wearers are also surely going to catch the hem in that upper chain/sprocket interface?

This is one of my old bikes... ideas deserve to be tried.

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does an alfine hub really weigh more than a XT cassette, hub and derailleur?

Getting the gears to fit into an EBB or similar would be genius .Using a cassette system so it can be slide out to service it

does an alfine hub really weigh more than a XT cassette, hub and derailleur?

yes, claimed weight is 1590g, tested weight is 1700g+ (that's the 11spd - 8spd more). XT components come to around 1000g.

yes, claimed weight is 1590g, tested weight is 1700g+ (that's the 11spd - 8spd more). XT components come to around 1000g.

XT cassette, hub and derailleur 1kg?

seems you are correct going from weight weenies - in fact less than 1kg

Rear D - 230g
Hub - 400g
Cassette - 290g

would save a bit of weight with alfine due to shorter chain and spokes - but not a lot

so about 1/2 a bag of suger more for the alfine

would make sense to fit inside a EBB / in bottom bracket area..

like multi speed mountain drive etc

In fact, why did Ted make his own hub?

If you take the Alfine off and flip the rear wheel, you have a SS bike in the 'normal' mode of propulsion.

Which I thought was another solution to a problem I didn't know I would have if I owned such a bike. For which I once more applaud him for getting all of that to work. More!

Forgive me for possibly being a bit clueless on this, but wouldn't it have been a shitload less faffing about to just put the crank on the other side?

Only if you use ine of those LH drive Alfines... Whats that? it doesn't exist? Oh... 🙄

Nice excecution of what is now a pretty old idea with debatable benefits, but we're getting caught up in the detail when it's all about the Beards and Hats...

I still think theres some milage in a derailleur based Gearbox but that's deeply unfashionable thesedays, the only real emerging "Standard" - the G-Conn or whatever it's called doesn't do it for me big lumpy and clearly designed by Germans...

I applaud anyone who has an idea and acts on it though...

just use a mech please and take the ugly bike away whilst you are at it.

Nicolai put their gearbox in this position to decrease sprung weight(?);

also a lot of people are saying its good engineering because it creates a solution to a non existent problem. I would say that is bad engineering by the very definition of engineering. maybe good craftsmanship but not engineering.

Only if you use ine of those LH drive Alfines... Whats that? it doesn't exist? Oh... 🙄

You're going on my list, buddy 😛

The problem was wanting gears with a freewheel and fixed for playing on.
http://www.pro-elbows.co.uk/2012/03/bespoked-bristol-ted-james-designs.html

http://www.tedjamesdesign.com/

his website does prove he can make nice looking bikes as well

his mums bike:
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At least he painted over the welds on his mum's bike 😉

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In a room full of designs that have changed little since the 50s it was nice to see something different.

It doesn't matter if it's not an ideal solution or not

Having seen the photos of the 29Gnar and understanding the reason behind it, yes it's kind've a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, but fair play to him for giving it a go anyway just to show he can do it. Weight balance was less of an issue for Nicolai when they originally put a gear hub in the frame, it was about reducing unsprung mass, and with a hardtail you don't have any sprung mass really!

Anyway, clicked on his site link just to have a look as I've never heard of him before... Wow! He really does have an eye for detail! None of it is really my thing per se, but still...

and with a hardtail you don't have any sprung mass really!

It is, kinda, if you imagine a force pushing the rear wheel upwards, the bike will pivot arround your feet (the heaviest thing on the bike is you), so moving stuff to be closer to the BB will help as it doesn't have to move as far to absorb an impact.

Simialalry although a swingarm is unsprung mass, you only need to really worry about the end nearest the wheel, eg race cars put the disks inboard even though it weighs more, the weight's in a better place. And ducati's 1199 is supposed to be much more centralised (to the point here is no frame, just a subframe for the seat and the headstock similarly at the front, swingarm bolts to the engine as well!) which makes it easier to turn becasue all that mass isn't having to pivot arround the center of the bike, it is the center of the bike.

I have one thing to say, Ted's hat was awesome!

Great show, i don't often have beard envy but i did on saturday, down with mainstream i say, up with innovation and quirkiness!

if you imagine a force pushing the rear wheel upwards, the bike will pivot arround your feet

Rear D - 230g
Hub - 400g
Cassette - 290g

Plus...
Front D
Front shifter
Rear shifter cable
Rear shifter

My point is, that the complete Alfine system replaces a complete front and rear derailleur system. I have one on my road bike, and while the weight is no issue, you can feel it behind you which is initially weird. We're Nikolai doing something like this? Yes, here it is [Pinion]:

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Pinkbike’s take: On our quick spin we came away with the overall impression that the Pinion felt very normal. This may sound anticlimactic, but it’s actually very important, it feels like a system you could live with

I do like it, but it looks almost like [i]I[/i] welded it, and I'm the worst welder in christendom.

[img] [/img]

Same idea, but done ages ago, and in a much better way, for much better reasons. Looks sick too.

The world used to be made up of those that do , and those who don't now we have a third group those who just talk,
Ted is a do,er and without people like this there wouldnt be a show like bespoked ,

I spoke to him on saturday evening the idea behind his bike was that he could ride to locations with a normal bike with gears when he got there he could reverse the wheel and transform the bike into a fixed gear trick bike to do what those guys do,
So I would say he has done the job and done it well it may not be fully finished And as he was still welding it up on the Thursday night Friday morning before the show,

The world used to be made up of those that do , and those who don't now we have a third group those who just talk,

thats very polite 🙂

Why thank you Brant I wouldn't want to upset anyone ,

To quote myself earlier:

Stop being a naysayer and pissing on new ideas.

Where do people get alfine gear boxes from?

All the ones I've seen don't look like hubs with the spoke flanges machined off.

While you can obviously applause the craftsmanship of the bike and the originality of the idea, I, too, can't help but wonder what is the point?
The combination of rear mech/cassette works a treat. I have yet to have a problem with a mech/cassette that is not user error. It's simple, you don't have to change all when one part breaks, it requires very little maintenance.
So thumb up for him to try new thing, even if I can see very little interest in it.

Juan have you actualy read the whole of the thread the reason for building is mentioned at least twice, I'll give you a clue it has nothing to do with replacing rear mech etc, but I won't waste anymore of my time

Tip of the day,,,,, read the whole thread before adding to it

He should if used the 3speed Sturmey fixed hub... gears and fixed

There was some interesting design on display at the show, this was a good example of someone doing something just because he could and that has got to be a good thing, if everyone in the world thought like some of the people on this thread we'd still be pointing at the moon thinking it was made of cheese.
On the niccolai with chain and disk on the same side, how the he'll are you supposed to keep chain lube from contaminating the disk and pads? There is a bike crying out for a belt drive.

markenduro - Nicoali do do a lot of work with Gates belts. The problem with the belt is maintaining constant tension through the movement of the suspension as the belt can't be bent backwards, so conventional chain-devices are out. At present, the only way to do it is a coaxial pivot and BB (or front drive sprocket in the G-Boxx case)

Which is how I've got a belt on my Kona A 🙂

I've got an idea for a suitable tensioner which intend to build if I ever find the time.

Ir, I now have a commencal absolut sx, expect belt drive questions imminently... If you don't mind that is.

thepodge - my email address is in my profile 🙂

Cool, thanks