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You always hear of Z2 as “Base riding” in old money especially. Think like a pyramid, the wider the baser, the larger /taller the pyramid.
Yeah I think I'd kind of wrongly assimilated badly understood trainerroad sweetspot base logic and come to the conclusion that all I needed to do was train to be able to ride for longer than my max race duration at 'almost race pace' and I'd be ok. but i guess rather than building a pyramid I've been building a rather unstable tower. Which actually makes sense as last year I really struggled with maintaining form through weekly cx races
Well, this is new to me also. I don’t understand sweet spot physiologically other than a concept for the time crunched. However the mid portion of my training was no end of multiple 20 min sessions
Someone posted it back there correctly - my top end has dropped but my mid range neuromuscular sustainability is up, as is my endurance and I guess for Marathons and stage races that’s where I need to be, yet it compromises XCO. I guess by getting near last year’s XCO pace in my current state it demonstrates a consistent higher power output over 90 mins. I have notice my HR is flatter on XCO than last year which perhaps acknologes that, and my lap times are much less varied.
ive seen another riders profile like that article and I am also shocked by how little z5/6 there is. I guess one thing to remember is that is a percent of a much larger set of available hours than us.
Some great info on this thread. Thanks for all the contributions people. I’m learning something every time I look at it!
@padkinson - As per the power tree, I’ve lost all respect for you (or just jealous that your clearly faster than me...) 😂
I feel I can only put things right by posting mine for comparison. That way nobody will respect me either! But I’m a numbers geek so....
FTP 4.67 @ 71kg
20 min 4.92
5 min 5.98
1 min 9.37
Can I ask some advice? I had a big sprint, which last time I tried it, I got to the front on the start and died for what seems obvious reasons now.
For a Marathon style rider then, what type of XCO start? Just sprint yet hold back in expected finishing position and grind away at those in front?
Weeksy- my Z2 hasn’t gone up by riding in Z2 like Kryton though. It’s gone up by switching between blocks of Vo2 work and blocks of Sweetspot work. Which raises your ftp.
Which drags up your Aerobic Threshold.
Whilst what Kryton says is all well and good for athletes with mid-high volume hours at their disposal, on single figures it’s not going to get you there- you need extra Training Stress.
This is high risk/high reward training and needs proper recovery. When comparing with Pro’s, you almost need to consider the rest of your life (ie the things you do besides cycling that stop you from cycling 15+ hrs a week) as your Z1/2 work. Cross training yes but still- take the stairs, walk further from the car park etc etc .
Then your 6-8hrs a week can be the hard stuff that gives you the race-edge performance.
As Dr Andrew Coggan says- different ways to skin a cat.
Interestingly, I just got my hands on the all new Joe Friel bible and he backs all this up. As volume decreases- intensity has to increase 🤷🏻♂️
Is that essentially why sweet spot is seen as the Nirvana Crosshair? Raising ftp in a shorter time than volume will allow but with less stress than going above ftp?
Yes that’s it. Maximum stress with minimum recovery time.
So a quick look on TR illustrates the difference nicely.
A- Traditional Base (Z2) Mid Volume week 2 is 7hrs and 315 TSS.
B- Sweetspot Base Mid Volume week 2 is 5.6hrs and 357 TSS.
Arguably A is going to be easier to do, easier to recover from and raise your aerobic threshold a little more.
B will be harder, need more attention paid to recovery and nutrition but raise FTP quicker.
If your competition are putting in circa 400TSS a week and you don’t have any extra hours per week to train, which are you going to choose? (at least for events under say 2h in duration when anaerobic Threshold is more important than aerobic Threshold)
One of the biggest differences in the new Bible is the use of TSS to plan your season and weekly load.
Although the quoted target ranges for each Cat are a little scary 🤣
My big confusion with z2 training boils down to this: is it that its a slower process so you need more riding time overall to create the adaptions or that you need to ride for a long time before any adaptions take place. So is 45 minutes z2 (my commute if i go direct and take it easy) 'worthless' from a training perspective as its too short or will it still cause some z2 improvements. Typically if I'm doing a commute like that I tend to really focus on pedalling in circles so I hope I'm improving pedaling efficiency even if not getting any aerobic benefits
I'd guess "yes, mostly pointless" but maybe that's why i'm rubbish 🙂
I'll be very interested to see what the people who know the actual answer say.
On Zwift in the last few months i did a fair few 60-90 mins Z2 rides and i wonder looking back if they were the same
Is anyone going to Gorrick 100 at the weekend? I'll be there with 2 team mates, all on the 7 lapper.......... if it all goes well and I'm sufficiently recovered from Ten Under last weekend.
Had a couple of spins yesterday, one very easy to a cafe for lunch in the sun and one a bit pacier in the evening on the gravel bike round the forest.
No- it’s not worthless at all. As soon as you’ve warmed up and your HR has settled into Z2 then you are stressing your aerobic system and forcing adaption.
However... you may well be burning a surprising percentage of carbs depending on what kind of rider you are. That’s where the long beasty ones come in- in hour 3 or 4 you are out of carbs and the Z2 gets tougher!
But.... let’s say you smash out some intense intervals on Tuesday (or Zwift race or whatever), you’re still not going to be fully recovered (in terms of glycogen) Wednesday morning say. So your 45min commute will likely be of greater value than 45mins Z2 when fresh.
Is Trainerroad the best place to go to add a touch of structure without taking it too seriously?
Or just do the Zwift FTP improver stuff?
Thanks @crosshair - the scenario you suggest on your last paragraph is exactly when i'd be primarily doing it.
Or this morning what I actually did was 10 mins z2, 4 mins of 15s max effort 15s spin up a gradual hill then 1/2hr z2 again, which actually felt like a nice little low stress work-out
Tiger- yeah I like it. Because my training hours are relatively fixed, I can choose a plan and know that the workouts are going to progress week on week in a sustainable manner. Then you retest your ftp to make everything tougher and start progressing again
You can also see in advance what the time, TSS and calories are going to be which is handy.
Nothing you couldn’t figure out yourself but it’s all done for you. And the weekly structure is there too. The mid volume build weeks I like go from Monday: rest, intervals, z2, intervals, rest, intervals, Sweetspot.
It gets tricky when you start messing things up to actually go racing but I think you just need to assume the race is roughly equal to an interval session and move on with the plan.
I haven’t ridden on the Turbo for weeks mind you, but can usually get close enough outdoors by aiming for NP across the interval length.
Is anyone going to Gorrick 100 at the weekend?
Yup, will be there for the 5 laps for Singular. Looking forward to it!
Ferrals, you can do Z2 fasted to speed up the reliance on fat as fuel. Doing that forces the body to utilise fat, which when a “habit” then means you are carrying a big fuel cell around with you.
I did an hour z2 fasted at 5am on the turbo this morning, it made the subsequent poached eggs on wholemeal much tastier!
I’ll be very interested to see what the people who know the actual answer say
Give me a couple of years until I finish my degree and I might have some kind of idea.
Give me a couple of years until I finish my degree and I might have some kind of idea
I trust CH, i don;t actually know if he's full of crap or not, but he's damn convincing so i go with his knowledge 🙂
I do think most of the bases can be covered with a good MTB ride. There are always sections which require maximum efforts of different durations to get up/through.
When I was training to power I found 30s-3min intervals done at max effort were my most effective weapon.
Hey? When have you ever paid attention to anything I’ve said 🤣🤣
Any training advice is usually met with several furious Zwift races 🤣🤣
Ferrals, you can do Z2 fasted to speed up the reliance on fat as fuel. Doing that forces the body to utilise fat, which when a “habit” then means you are carrying a big fuel cell around with you.
I suppose that's what I've been doing when I commute to work in the morning, get up at 5am, put gear on, pedal for 2 hours without putting massive amounts of effort in, then nave brekkie.
Hey? When have you ever paid attention to anything I’ve said
I never said i'd follow it 🙂
Anybody got a free trail intro thingy for TR?
Anybody got a free trail intro thingy for TR?
Sent 👍🏻👍🏻
Got 👍👍
muchos gratitude
Well that didn't go well.
My coach had asked me to try caffeine shots (loading). I'd tried one at Haleigh where I'd had a disastrous race with limited HR, but I was ill the day before but assumed it was that.
So on a scorchio day - 27 degrees - I was looking forward to the MSG Race at Phoenix Bike Park. Great course, I enjoyed the practice lap. I almost forgot to down the caffeine shot so it was late, and I expected it to kick in about 15 mins into the race. I got the start I wanted, holding back my sprint to sit about 10th with the leaders intending to sit on and calm down until the 2nd lap. However, it all went wrong 15 minutes later and on the second lap big style.
Suddenly I had nothing. Real suddenly like boom, gone. I was sitting on the bike watching the riders in front pull away and thinking, WTF... I glanced down at my Garmin to see my HR at 154 and falling - I usually race between 160-170. It carried on falling until on lap 4 when it was done to 132, bordering on high Z2 for me and I was dismayed but the reason it happened has become clear. I tried a few efforts but was limited, and was forced to sit for two more lap whilst people came past me with no fight at all and I eventually finished 35 of 41 - about 15 places down from my usual level of competition. And I've got pretty bad sunburn.
I've just read 2 articles on the matter which states that Caffeine loads more fat cells into your blood stream delaying use of Glycogen. Hold on though, for a 90 min XCO, I need all my Glycogen! So I'm guessing the caffeine shot has pushed the Glycogen to one side and forced me to defer to fat cells, hence my experience.
Well, no more caffeine shots in XCO for me!
I always try different gels etc. outside of racing first.
however are you sure it wasn't just the heat? I had a race in 30 deg and little shade last year when I had similar just from going off as if it was 20deg and after two laps 'computer says no.'
Maybe? This same race last year was 31 degrees, and I came 19th. I made extensive efforts to be hydrated using the same as last year, no change in products.
A little more analysis shows actually I'm a bit closer to many people than I was last year, yet there's lots of names I don't know, probably practising for the Nationals in a months time.
Results are on timelaps if anyone wants to have a gander at the top 20 and see of they recognise some nationals names, I mean there is Roger Fowkes for example... My HR does goes distinctly downward direction, maybe just a bad day in the office.
It must be highly likely that at least ten extra fast people turned up to practice the course prior to the nationals in a few weeks time. That would account for a lot.
It should also be noted that your race had the fastest winning time of the lot including sport and elite/expert!
xc gaining popularity, a sunny, dry day, and a nationals course? That would certainly help account for finishing position.
So then looking at your times, like you said, you just fell off the cliff after lap 1. Either you simply went too hard on this lap and blew up, but it doesn’t sound like you did from your description, or those caffeine shots are indeed messing your system up. What was your average heart rate for the race, and your max and min?
This year: Average 157. Max 173 (on the start), Min 132.
Last year: Average 169, Max 176, Min 161.
Last race 3 weeks ago (no caffeine shot) for comparison is interesting - Average 160, Max 169 and Min 155.
Seems my heart isn’t working so hard this a year, not sure if that’s good or bad. One thing I’m thinking about, is the “top end” differential that I think Ferrals mentioned could be lost with training specifically to Marathons - I remembered yesterday having the worst of my issues in the tight twisty section - just not being able to “fire out” of bends, yet over the two years yesterday I picked up a Strava PB on the railway section - a long straight which I remember knocking into a big gear and grinding to calm my legs down.
Its more annoying as despite by “easier” week my coach had me put on some small sprints over the course of my training this week to get my legs firing again, to no avail obvs.
Anyway, constant disappointment at the moment is proving a bit hard to bear. 5 months coached a shitty winter and worse performances.
Still, I’ve an enjoyable week at BeMC this coming week evening if I just ride for enjoyment perhaps with an aim to complete the 3 days, so lets focus on that.
In a bizarre way I may actually move up the grid in the Eastern league. There were quite a few regular no shows - a whole row in front of me. Shows that finishing rather than quitting - which some did - despite the angst is the way to go.
Do you ride with power, Kryton? I would have thought that the HR is pretty meaningless without knowing what the relative power output is, if you're trying to make comparisons. You say you've been focused on a lot Z2 work and steady state stuff, so the effort (HR) required for the same power output is likely to be lower?
I had a tough day at the Gorrick yesterday; great 8 mile singletrack loop but starting cramping really badly after 2 laps and so the remaining 3 were pretty hard work! Always disappointing not to go as well as you think you can, but we all have not so good days.
I don’t on the MTB John_l, but a good point you’ve made there. I can only go by Strava estimates which we know lack accuracy but for comparison is 161w Average yesterday verses 167w last year. I suspect I race higher than that... but still.
ive not really had a good day yet this year which is challenging mentally, that’s all.
Does your coach read this thread?
I think it all boils down to the letters C, B and A. Until you’ve reached an A race in your plan then you can’t judge anything.
So if they were C races- bank the TSS and the experience and move on.
Perhaps tell your coach that you are insecure and they can incorporate some objective testing.
Timed Zwift loops on the Zwift TT bike are perfect- pretty much as objective as you can possibly get and more fun than just measuring power.
Kryton - I think you need to stop analysing every single thing you do...believe me, it's not healthy...take it from a man who's been there and done it. After the National race at Dalby in 2017 where I literally got off my bike and walked away, someone recommended the book 'The Chimp Paradox' to me. I can't say it 100% helped but I haven't had a DNF for anything other than a mechanical or crash since.
Personally, I train to power...be it on the turbo, the road or the MTB. For racing I make sure I can't see what my power output (or anything other than lap time) is because I know it gets into my head and that usually means bad things. I know for a fact that I'm riding better, faster and with my power than I ever have, yet I'm still only finishing pretty much exactly where I did last year. Most of this is due to the level of competition. The Vets XCO category is probably THE most competitive category there is. We're up against ex Olympians, Commonwealth Games and World Cup racers and those that didn't go to that level are still mixing it up with the best of them.
Now, this but may not sound good, but I'm going to say it anyway...I'm not overly convinced you and your coach are suited to each other. Find someone that understands you isn't always easy but my recommendation would be to look at a change in coach. Obviously I don't suggest a nasty split, just an amicable agreement that you need to try something different to find what works. You can always go back to him/her if you feel they're better for you than anyone else.
As a side....what length cranks do you run??? I'll probably be selling my XTR and Stages power meter set up do to sponsor conflicts. I have the race AND the trail versions however, they're 170mm so maybe a little too short for you!
Now, all that said....have fun! Pick someone close to you in the pecking order and use them as a target for improvement and then once you regularly beat them, move on to the next target. Stop being disheartened and focus on the things that you did well and did right. A glass half empty mentality will just breed more negativity. Look at the positives and the opposite will apply
Thanks Gaz. A lot makes sense, especially seeing as I was quite happy following you most of the first lap.
It is getting to me a bit. As said before there are improvements in other areas of my riding - mainly endurance and power on long climbs. I had a great day yesterday watching Jnr come 9th in his race, until mine. I guess I need to knock off the moaning as you say, it’s just painful when your going backwards and I need to express myself I guess. I have read the chimp paradox although not applied it, and actually I’ve just finished some CBT for fear of flying which resulted in a positive return trip from Vancouver, I think you are right and I need to put those learnings into my “race head” and get positive.
I don’t think my coach is the issue. He’s pretty good to me, seems to spot my strong/weak areas and is trying to change up my taper weeks as I didn’t respond well to doing sod all. We’ve tested and he sees my rider profile, we are testing again in June. I will no doubt be getting a call from him tomorrow based on my hr and performance data.
I felt great Saturday on a short pre race warm up to numbers and feeling very good. I felt good on the start, reigning in a bigger sprint behind you and defending / taking a couple of places as I followed you through the B line through the start. Continued to ride well then as we came up to the main field the second time to go through under the bridge for the end of the lap I started fading... I am targeting Paul Coulson though, we are close although for the reasons above he finished 5 mins in front of me yesterday.
Thanks for the offer on the cranks, I’m not really on a position to splash out at the moment.
I noticed you sat in the sun yesterday...thats not going to help!
My plan yesterday was to sit in for lap 1 and maybe lap 2 depending on position before working my way forward...it didn't go to plan because my rear brake failed on the A line on lap one and I had a pretty big crash. I almost get back on the bike and carried on but i'd taken a big bang to the helmet which left quite a dent so I thought better of it! It definitely hasn't affected my motivation though! Far from it!!!!
Personally, I know my place is top 10 but I make sure I try not to think about where I am during the race. Like I said, try turning all of your data off so you can't see it because I assure you, that will get into your head and is almost impossible to recover from once its there. I've seen some of the pros actually tape over their screen during their race so that they can't see anything...I just have my screen showing total time and lap time. That way, I race on feel rather than data.....give it a go....
If you need to chat about it, you know where I am at the races!
Well I can honestly say I'm enjoying not racing.
I could have rocked up to G100 and pissed myself off but instead did a 4hr Z2 Road loop on the MTB. My season will start as most are finishing and the time off just ticking over has some me good.
I salute Kryton. "every time a friend of mine succeeds a little inside me dies" I dread hearing of his success but I fear its inevitable.
Thanks Gaz. I think actually I need to relax into it, enjoy BeMC and try not to get lost during the Wantage Marathon to see a real rather than virtual result as at Builth - top 30 would get my season goal, I was close to that in Builth by virtue of removing the lost time - and reset myself for the next MSG which for me is Hintlesham.
Adsh, a reminder if those who can't race, sorry to preach on whilst your in those circumstances . I've no idea what your last para means - I have had a couple of beers though...
Great posts today guys. I must admit, I had the same thoughts about the coach, changing something in the fuelling on the day of a big event, shocks me. Especially something that can have extreme reactions like caffeine gels etc.
I totally get where Kryton is and feel really sorry for him, maybe not the best phrase, bit i feel his pain and hope he finds the answer
I feel his pain too....I assure you I have experienced everything Kryton speaks about first hand. I am a massive self-critic and will beat myself up if I'm not at the sharp end of racing. I think 99% of people that do this sport are in the same boat too....if we weren't incredibly competitive, we wouldn't be 'athletes'.
I'm coached by non other than Oli Beckingsale. I have been for 5 years and we are still to this day discovering what does and doesn't work, what times are best for us and what style of motivation works for me.
Kryton - you have bags of motivation, if you didn't you wouldn't be on here scrutising your race after every race. Find a little (realistic) target in every race and use that to keep that motivation high. It will grow even more from acheiving those goals.
The BeMC is no small race. I did the Roc d'Ardennes UCI Marathon in Houffalize last week. I set myself a goal of finishing in the top 100. I finished 117th. Work out what kind of power/hr you need to average to get around and stick to it but don't go chasing it if your not meeting it....for example, I wanted to have a Normalised Average Power of around 280w for the UCI Marathon but by 35k I was down at 240w NP. I was never going to make the 40w back up so I just dealt with it and carried on.....it could have been the terrain that gave me a lower NP after all.
I feel like I'm waffling a bit now and probably not making the point I intend to...so in summary, be realistic in your goals. Reset them and start again with the basics like enjoying your events and just finishing or ridin all of the A lines etc.
And that goes for everyone 🙂
Kryton it's a quote from Gore Vidal that recognises the inner competitiveness in us all. Much as I"ll be happy when you succeed as you surely will also a very small part of me will be pissed.
Ha cheers. Gaz thank you, it’s good the hear from someone in the same races that does the same things and to know it’s not just me. Well done on having Oli as a coach!
On reflection this afternoon I think I need to remember that my Marathon results have likely improved and my XC results have dropped off - but that’s what I told my coach I wanted to do, target Marathons! I’ve lost sight of that, and I must remember that Cav doesn’t win GC’s but that doesn’t make him a crap rider, and Froome will not likely win a sprint.
Gaz is right - it’s the never ending strive for “better” which is hard to keep focus on when “better” means one thing, not everything. I need to keep sight of the one thing I started to aim for - top 30 or better in Scott Marathons, to which end I’m already close enough I must just sneak a bit further up the field later on the year.
I’m going to make a small promise not to use this thread as a negative outlet, because as much as it’s likely a pain for others I’m sure it’s a catalyst to a spiral of self doubt for me. I’m about to follow Gaz into Belgium and have a fantastic few days on my bike, I look forward to that, and will put up a small review next week!
I’m going to make a small promise not to use this thread as a negative outlet, because as much as it’s likely a pain for others
Don't thnk that at all, good days, bad days, all allowed.
What's the thoughts on oval chain rings for xc? Got to replace mine, half thinking about giving one a crack. I'm definitely of the sit and spin style of riding and I've heard they make most difference for people who stand and stamp a lot, but my natural cadence is pretty low
I do hope you continue to post up your true feelings on here. As racers we all spend so much time thinking about our performance that threads like these are so INTERESTING to read. I love talking about training but we run out of topics of conversation if everyone just posts up about good days.
I’m racing and living with Kryton over the bemc along with another team mate. We are very much of the mindset that this is a holiday to be enjoyed with the bonus of getting to ride our bikes every day. None of us are going to trouble the leaderboard so having a good time has got to be the priority. I’m hoping to ride at a pace where the world does not disappear into a sea of pain, but instead ride fast but be able to look at the scenery from time to time. Looking forward to kicking back after a days racing with a beer if I feel like it or simply just lots of good food and some dvd’s. Five days away from home and work, staying in a house with two mates. Sounds like a good time to me! Don’t want to let petty worries like race results spoil things.
What’s the thoughts on oval chain rings for xc?
Ferral I sit & grind also. I found that it does fill a small missing space in the stroke when climbing, and does actually provide more traction (HT) on the basis of a smoother overall stroke. I think it’s advantageous in a starting sprint also.
That said my newest (FS) bike is OEM round and I haven’t changed it, mainly because the chainring is very optimal to the chainstay and integral chain device (Scott Spark). I can’t notice the difference but I have noticed that my FS has much more traction that the HT anyway - same tyres, same width.
I popped along here to catch up on any last minute BeMC chat. As a bit of an outsider here (not racing XCO focusing on BeMC and marathons this year) a quick recap. Crappy winter and then a lingering cold in January meant that training only really started in Feb. Ive had a fairly consistent build up since then (3 weeks on, 1 off - culminating in a big 18hr week before last).
Felt fairly prepared but then disaster struck and came down with a 48hr vomiting bug last week. No training, feeling awful and I sit here today feeling like BeMC would be a complete disaster. Sobering therefore to read the above. 3 days riding my bike in foreign climes throw in some La Chouffe and I cannot understand what Ive been complaining about.
Thanks all, good to remember we do this for fun. I think my plan for BeMC now revolves around taking it VERY easy day 1 and see how things are half way through Day 2. The climbing really scares me as my big rides tend to be less than 2000m of climbing so going far beyond that for three days in a row is way outside my comfort zone. AT least the weather looks to be fairly alright subject to some dampness on the last day.
Will be sure to swing back here after and give a quick run down
I did the Gorrick 100 at the weekend, didn't really set a target position wise, but it was more of a sustained effort kind of target, after cracking out 10 hours at around 145-150bpm at Ten Under the week before, I set a self imposed target of averaging 160bpm for this.
It was a tad warm and the mixture of that and a course that seemed to been 80% twisty rooty single track took it's toll in the end, I was nudging the top 30 with nice consistent laps (45-47 min average for the 14km lap) having a nice duel with one of the Pivot Bombpods chaps when my hands started to feel really uncomfortable and hot, turns out they were starting to blister.
So with one eye on the Euro 24hr champs in 3 weeks and no wanting to go into that with a nice bunch of fresh tender skin on my hands I called it quits at 6 laps and settled for what turned out to be 45th place, at least it was a nice day out and I got home in time for tea with the kids.
"What’s the thoughts on oval chain rings for xc?"
I quite like my oval - in my head the stroke feels smoother, particularly climbing.
I've come to the conclusion I'm stickng with round. £50 is a bit much to try something I may not like.
EDIT - Steve- 10hrs at 160 bpm sounds totally nuts!!
Good work, Steve - my hands are covered in blisters from Sunday after just 5 laps.
Was 17th and had a miserable 4th lap before having a word with myself and upping the pace for the final lap and the cramps let-up.
Hey Kryton,
Got a link to those caffeine studies, sound an interesting read...
Think I had a similar reaction when I tried a shot last year
Well, rollingdonut and I are living the pre-BeMC pro life and lying on sofas watching the entire series of Long Way Round with the third member of our party, 1T, all of us stretched out on sofas with our legs up
Didnt do too bad on the accommodation in Marcourt:
and sampled a local beverage on arrival last night:
Feeling twitchy as none of us are used to lazing around, and the hills look nothing short of bloody hard work although the Ardennes looks absolutely beautiful.
Enormity of BeMC is kicking in...
Keep the updates coming. I don't know anything about this event and in all honesty the website was a bit rubbish IMO. But any MTB event like this certainly has an appeal before i get too old (maybe i already am LOL)
Just looking at the minimum times between feed zones to avoid the boot. Works out an average 11kmph day 1, 15kmph day 2 (the longest - 100k) and 11kmph day 3. Keep above those and we should make it!
It's the river crossing I'd be more concerned about. It's bloody huge, haha
The wall is, well a wall, but it's fairly short. I had to walk up it once I got cramp and it still took only a few mins.
There aren't any long climbs just constant up and down. There can also be some pretty open bits in the race so you'll want to get into a group to minimise effort.
I'm doing the opposite from most people - after racing marathons and stage races, this weekend I'll be doing my first ever xco race. Hoping not to embarrass myself!
EDIT – Steve- 10hrs at 160 bpm sounds totally nuts!!
It was meant to read 160bmp for the Gorrick 😉
Good work, Steve – my hands are covered in blisters from Sunday after just 5 laps.
Was 17th and had a miserable 4th lap before having a word with myself and upping the pace for the final lap and the cramps let-up.
@john_I good work, I don't know what it is with that place but the roots seem to be made of steel bars!!
The wall is, well a wall, but it’s fairly short. I had to walk up it once I got cramp and it still took only a few mins
Is that the one in Houffaliez, yeah it's not bad, bloody brutal 2 minutes into the Roc d'Adrenne though.
So who is up at Glentress this weekend for round 3 of the Nationals?
I've been sweating about not having a rear wheel race on but fortunately got the call yesterday to say my new wheel has been built and is ready to go!
Anyone raced at Glentress before, any idea what the course is like?
I'm heading up to Selkirk tomorrow after work to stay in an airbnb. Practice Saturday and race Sunday. Long drive back Sunday evening.
Really looking forward to it. Gridded 2nd row which is nice. I'll have a close eye on my rivals and hope to match my performance at dalby. I'm feeling good and my form should be where it needs to be come race day. I'm just hoping for a mechanical free weekend, which would be a first this year!
So who is up at Glentress this weekend for round 3 of the Nationals?
I'm entered, but a bit of a mess up by silverfish has left me shock-less 😭
Probably for the best, I've got way too much to do this weekend anyway.
...enjoy BeMC...
Er no. My woes continue resulting in 6:30 on the bike. Struggled from 51k. This thing is very ****ing hard, some tough climbs.
Goodnight.
Er no. My woes continue resulting in 6:30 on the bike. Struggled from 51k. This thing is very **** hard, some tough climbs
How did your time compare to the other lads you're with? What was the issue? Or just long and hard?
<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">R8jimbob88- I am planning to race at Glentress but not entered. Haven't raced for a long time and still need psych'ing up even for the fun race on Saturday!</span>
I rode down from Edinburgh via the Pentlands and old drove road today having caught the train up from London on Thursday evening. I keep telling myself I've come too far not to have a bash!
Re: sweating about not having a rear race wheel- I'm on my decade old 13kg Mount Vision with leaking forks 🙂
Does anyone know how early I'd need to arrive to enter the fun race on the day?
How did your time compare to the other lads you’re with? What was the issue? Or just long and hard?
About an hour slower - Just too long and hard for me. Was fine until 51k, riding with good HR, then I started to feel the strain and saw the HR plummet, really struggle on the climbs even in 32/50. I'm just tired, and I think overtrained, I need some time off the bike when I'm back in the UK (no caffeine shots this week 🙂 )
Chin up Kryton, it's an internationally recognised mtb stage race, it was always going to be brutal, you've made it through day one, see how the legs are tomorrow. Finishing would be an achievement for many and it's all miles in the bank.
@twowheels, assuming standard 2.30 start I'd get there 12.30ish as may be queues at registration and you'll have to register before doing a pre-ride
Well, in many respects. a much better day today. 100k second stage with 3000m climbed, felt much better, I'm thinking due to the easier starting hills - less steep and challenging than yesterday. Still not on form with 8:01 moving time, but hey I'm looking forward to actually finishing this thing tomorrow. This is definitely the hardest thing I've done on a bike. Scenery is stunning, hills are very hard. Lots of people going backwards today after a hard ride yesterday.
Rollindonut & 1T are doing well, sitting at 300th place overall/150th Open Cat.
Now eating a lot.
Bucks off road sportive for me today in my continuing move to enjoy my bike. Such a great event. Looking forward but I've not been on my bike longer than 4hrs in the last year......
Unfortunately I've DNF'd BeMC. It's wet and cold here and I was shaking and yawning on the start. Did the first 10k climb out of la Roche very slowly and the fatigue was very evident<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">. </span>
Came down the first slippery single track and was having trouble seeing and correcting the bars, the inevitable happened, off I came, nothing worse than a bruised shin. At that point I was done, I'm just too tired for it to be safe.
I'm not disappointed though. I came in off form, I've had the opportunity to experience Europe's hardest MTB stage race and the beautiful Ardennes,the bike has been excellent. I shall now rest up before the next Scott Marathon in 2 weeks, then get some more endurance training done before the 12hr at 24/12 .
When I get back home I'll chat to my coach about my form, not enough rest? FIrst time coached with 5 months hard work taken its toll? Too ambitious? Need longer rides? Who knows, but right now I want to find some time to enjoy my bike again .
That's a very honest post and I'd love to have something more constructive to add. Your form though is a confusing one, you keep stating your coach is happy, but it's clear you are far from happy.
We are still learning about each other, and I've had a lot of other stresses off the bike, travel to Canada, significant issue at work...
HR is a good indicator. My usual resting HR is circa 46. All last week it was in the mid 50's and last night it was 64! I currently have a TSS of -54 .
My interpretation is that I'm just fatigued/overtrained after <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">my first 5 months coached training, and need time to rest. I'm not upset about it, I'm still learning . And let's not forget - BeMC is bloody hard . </span>
No more negatives - Onward!
first 5 months coached training, and need time to rest.
Surely it's his job to know this? He should know when you're fatigued even before you know it's coming. I'd have thought he'd have you at your absolute peak for this one
Sorry to hear that Kryton- try and take away the positives. Getting over there and pinning on a number to begin with is a big achievement so don’t punish yourself too much.
As for your coach- sounds like he needs a kick in the nuts 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know you love to be all secretive about it but I’m curious to know how you designated this event. With significant investment involved- it seemed like an ideal A race with an almost perfect gap to the Scott Marthon to re-peak.
You should have been chomping at the bit- not fatigued 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
-54 is nuts! Surely you’re going to struggle to get to anything like a peak for the Scott?
edit - sorry if that comes across negatively!
BeMC isn't a target race, the Scott's are. This was just planned as adventure to try out Let's not<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> blame him - there's a few things I've done against his wishes based on my gut feel such as last weeks MSG, and also I havent managed my sleeping and drinking well recently, so its my fault too. If you want to be a decent level racer you need to behave like one and I've been at best a C+ on that score. </span>
Like I said, we are BOTH learning . Anyway let's not carry on about it, I've had a decent weekend with 200k of the Ardenne ridden and 5000m climbed, and there's lots to take away. I'd rather hear about how well others have got on this weekend.
I'm too tired to post properly right now, but if your thing is climbing all day and hooning down the wavy fast lines scored into fireroads at a speed that makes the needle flicker into the 'this isn't wise' red zone then bemc is for you. Had such a great time and pushed myself harder than I've ever done before. Some sublime single track too especially on the second day.
Sorry to hear it Kryton - good to be in one piece and that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger!
Managed the 120 route in 7hrs which I was pleased with 3hrs longer than I've ridden in a year and shows my base hasn't utterly deserted me. Rode to power with good discipline, ate a heap and drank lot.
I also have over - 50 form but at the start of my training block. Some adjustment needed I think!
Nice one adsh.
Kryton - Do you think you've not been recovering properly/ resting enough with the training you've been doing? I know you mentioned a while back going on long walks on your rest week. It's something I've been thinking about a lot at the moment. I'm riding less than previously but am increasingly fatigued and struggling to elevate hr / put in hard efforts. However instead of getting home from a hard ride,having some food and sitting with my legs up for a while, with a toddler I'm now getting home, slinging the bike in the garage and going full gas trying to amuse/contain a relentless bundle of energy, often not having time to eat anything or even re-hydrate (not that I'd change that for the world obviously). I'm not to fussed at the moment as I'm not doing any real sprinty stuff close to max hr but I am wondering how I'll manage it when it gets near to cx season and I want to be doing full on efforts. I'm thinking I'll have to take it into account and do fewer or shorter rides.
as promised a little BEMC recap from me.
As Kryton and others have said, amazing race, stunning scenery but BRUTALLY hard.
Day 1 - scared by the climbs and being conservative, my riding partner and I took things fairly easy (although I still managed to average a 148bpm average HR across the stage). Finished way down in aprox 250th in Open Cat in around 5h30min. Felt good though having not dug too deep and legs still felt pretty good.
Day2 - Disaster strikes and my race partner goes down with stomach cramping. He starts but we literally crawl to the first feed zone at 20km. We phaff there for a while before he finally pulls out (gutted for him). I then tear off like its a XC race. nice and warm and trails are dry and dusty, perfect conditions for me. Rode really hard to 2nd feed zone at 50km after that conserved a little and then smashed the last 30km or so. Had a cracking day and legs were firing. Ended the day in 190th Open Cat in around 6h20 (big move up on GC so pretty happy all around). Averaged 146bpm across the stage which I was happy with. Good consistent HR through the 100km and felt like I had powere for the final climbs) Wondering what could have been had it not been for the slow start (but hard to tell if thats not what the legs needed?)
Day3 - Rain literally put a dampner on this stage. After Day2's effort I knew the legs would struggle. Did a nice deep warm up to try bring the legs around. Seemed to work as I felt good in the first 30km and find myself riding with a new group (including two fine gentlemen from Winchester who kindly towed me around - for which I'm deeply grateful if they are listening). This stage was tough for me, in part the mud made it even more difficult but mostly the stage looping around on itself in a two lap(ish) format really played with me mentally. From 30-50km I was digging really deep. Struggling mentally and physically and then just after the 50km feed stop my legs exploded. For the last 17km I was just chewing my bars. No matter what I tried just couldn't generate any power for the last climbs. Felt like I was hemorrhaging time and places through this last section. To add insult to injury managed to slide out on the last corner on bricks leading into the finishing straight. Finally finished in around 4h30 BUT up to 160th in Open (around 50th in my age Cat).
Overall I'm happy with the result. I showed some form especially through Day 2 and whilst I was disappointed with the end of Day 3 I probably pitched the effort level about right. Perhaps a little harder day 1 would have moved me up 10 places or so but difficult to tell. Despite some sickness earlier in the year some good consistent build up in the last 12 weeks led to a decent result. To my great surprise the climbing Day 1 & 2 seemed manageable as it seemed to flow a bit better although I found the climbing on Day 3 ridiculous (the nature of the double lap meant it felt like the repeated climbing was purely for climbing sake rather than as part of a great loop of trails??). I could feel that my ramped interval sessions paid dividends on the repeated short climbs.
Lastly, I would thoroughly recommend the BEMC to anyone looking for a epic, brutal but ultimately fantastic three days racing. The first two days are stunning routes (Day 1 was new this year) and whilst Day 3 was not of the same quality for me that may have something to do with the weather. I will definitely be back (not next year as the plan is the Cape Epic for 2019).