[Closed] That Deviate, eh...

Spidey sense kicks in as soon as I hear 'motor sports designer'.
Files in same box as Robot Bike Co 160, Arbr Saker etc.

Maybe if they did lots of swearing in Scottish words and told people it was gnar? Might just get you on side?

Yep, would love a go on it especially having read the review. The shifter works fine for me and not having to pedal to change gear is a big bonus. Couldn't buy one as I have bought more bikes than I can afford already

Not sure the build/pic does it any faours, looks a bit short and steep, though the number suggest otherwise.

Think you're stuck with the grip shift - it's a problem the gearbox makers are always threatening to solve but they haven't done it yet. Some sort of electronic shift might be the solution, though it might need a bit more heft to the electrics than Di2. Not shifting under load is the other thing.

Wonder if someone will try the Honda-style "mech in a box" route.

Seat tube a bit too long for the reach on offer, considering we now have 170mm droppers.

Woukd also rather fit it with a float X2 or DHX2.

Maybe the best gearbox effort to date. I look at the pulleys and just think it'll be wearing the teeth out quickly in local winter and will be noisier than a mech as it's more in the firing line.
Why can't a shifter be made with two cables?

Because it would look like this:
[img] [/img]

Rorschach - Member

Files in same box as Robot Bike Co 160

I quite like the Robot. It's a clever way of offering custom geo in a (mostly) carbon frame. Would love that one that Paul Aston had made with the Geometron numbers

Effigear have solved the trigger shifter issue for their gearbox but it requires a huge spring on the downtube.

looks cool, brave to make their first bike from carbon

I like the look of it, despite having no real interest in those sorts of bikes. Solely in terms of drivetrain it's about 1kg heavier for the gearbox compared to conventional I think? If it really improves suspension dynamics for the sort of bikes where weight isn't a total premium it kind of makes sense

Yeah short and steep 65.5 HA 😀

fergal - Member
Yeah short and steep 65.5 HA

Given the geometry it must be an optical illusion bought about by the 2-3" too long seat tube and the daft looking bend in the downtube. I simply couldn't ride it with a dropper as no-one now does a 75mm one I'd need to ride that. It's a major oversight.

Both of these issues are frustrating as otherwise it looks blinking great from the spec.

Best of luck to them

Looks oddly tall and just seems wrong having the shock there. Styling too close to Evil for my taste.

Would like to try one to see what the gearbox is like and I can see having all the weight low and central might make sense.

Agree the seat tubes are needlessly lofty. Geometry seems OK otherwise though.

Sooooooo I had no issues with the twist shifter. It became second nature very quickly. As for being designed by a motor sports engineer, if this is what they are capable of, I wish we had more in the bike industry. The suspension delivers what no other suspension bike I have owned or have ridden has ever done. It stays supple while still pedalling. Like I said in my review, my own full susser doesn't feel anywhere as supple nor active.

I am not a fan of carbon by any means but the Deviate is seriously burly. It has seen a season of Alpine guiding but it felt like a new bike to me when I rode it. At no point did I back off on steep, rocky and raggedy trails when I rode it. Fragile it isn't.

I would strongly encourage folk to try it. It is not the kind of bike I would ever have considered buying but after riding it, I want one. I was out on it again today riding my local xc trails. It is a burly bike but felt at home in tight wooded, slow speed, tech single track. Sadly, I have to give it back now.

I'm genuinely in awe of what Chris and Ben at Deviate have achieved. It's great to be reminded that British engineers and riders can take on the big boys.

Sanny

fergal - Member
Yeah short and steep 65.5 HA

Try reading to the end of the sentence

Sooooooo I had no issues with the twist shifter. It became second nature very quickly.

I haven't ridden a gearbox bike but I've done thousands of miles on hub gears and it's just a feel thing - it doesn't take long to get used to if you have some mechanical sensitivity. It's a bit like changing gears in the car without using the clutch. And I never pedal hard when shifting with a rear mech, it just feels wrong - I pedal but with lower force for that very brief moment.

I think this bike looks great - I'm puzzled by the long-ish seat tubes but that seems to be an affliction affecting tons of fancy carbon frames (less so on alloy frames - presumably due to the tooling for carbon being made longer ago and harder to change as longer droppers appear).

sanny, cheeky question, feel free not to answer.

It's pretty spendy, would you part with your own money?

And at retail price, not magazine rates....

BTW It looks nice. Pinion really appeals to me.

nickc - Member
It's pretty spendy

Remember that price includes most of the transmission and I'm pretty sure nothing short of a triple will touch it's range.

Anyone else notice the cock and balls shape the chain makes?

The frame is £3399 which includes the Pinion gearbox and DB inline shock, so actually not that expensive considering a Santa Crux Nomad frame is only £100 less with a lower spec shock and no gearing/drivetrain components. And a Yeti SB6 frames are just as much or even more for the fancy carbon version, again with an inferior shock and no gears/drivetrain.

So spendy yes, but no more spendy than other bikes. I'd usually never consider spending that much on a frame, but with the pinion gearbox, which appeals, might cause me to contemplate it.

For those who have ridden a Pinion box - what are they like regarding changing gear as you can't change them under load? I tend to avoid changing gear under load with a conventional drivetrain anyway, but occasionally you get caught out and I do and the drivetrain can take it, but the Pinion can't do it at all from what I can gather.

Tbh not changing under load really isn’t an issue for me, owning an ebike and not wanting to shred it’s drivetrain soon got me out of that habit...

Must get a test rode organised once I’m back riding...

Rorschach - Member
Spidey sense kicks in as soon as I hear 'motor sports designer'.
Files in same box as Robot Bike Co 160, Arbr Saker etc.

I’m not sure what that box is but it should also contain Whyte Bikes

The frame is £3399 which includes the Pinion gearbox and DB inline shock, so actually not that expensive considering a Santa Crux Nomad frame is only £100 less with a lower spec shock

sure, but... SC are a well established brand with a pretty good dealer network, excellent back-up and warranty, great reviews, and a strong reputation.

This is a brand new company making a complex frame/bike with reasonably non standard parts and with Cane Creek suspension that will, (not if when or maybe, but will) spill it's guts...that's a lot of money to risk. No?

nickc - Member
This is a brand new company making a complex frame/bike with reasonably non standard parts and with Cane Creek suspension that will, (not if when or maybe, but will) spill it's guts...that's a lot of money to risk. No?

From that I'd say it's not for you. 😆

sure, but... SC are a well established brand with a pretty good dealer network, excellent back-up and warranty, great reviews, and a strong reputation.

Sure, but Evil kicked off with a poor reputation for both frame quality/robustness or customer services on warranty issues, but by all accounts they seem to be pulling through and changing that view. But I always think the warranty issue is a red herring and don't really place any value on warranty in the purchase price - what is the point in bumping up the price and offering a good warranty...all you're doing is pricing in warranty replacements into the purchase price. I suspect that is what SC has done with their carbon wheels, time will tell. I'd rather pay a premium and get a good robust frame in the first place. But granted, they're a new company and those early adopters will certainly be taking a leap of faith.

Nickc

Not a cheeky question at all. Would I buy one with my own money? Yes I would.

I love 29ers, plus and fat bikes. The Deviate wouldn't normally be on my radar but it is a really impressive bike that put a big smile on my face.

Interesting Santa Cruz comparison. I have had three and broke them all. The qc on my first gen Heckler was dreadful. My first frame got sent back as the 135mm rear end would have fitted a boost hub! oh and the paint flaked off after only a few months. I imagine they are better now than when I ran them but for my money, I would be going for the gearbox option. I need to get rid of a couple of bikes first to justify it though!

Bendy top tube and seat tube brace section look weird. Otherwise I’d like to ride one.

I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I had the cash.
I've ridden pinion's before and I'm a huge convert, buy sadly a skint one. As for changing under load, your style changes to accommodate this - just back off or a quick timed back pedal in those caught out sections.
Cost seems spot on, spec is pretty much what I'd go with on a custom build (maybe different wheels), and the med size would fit me with a 150mm dropper.

Also if they are specing the 200mm 9point eight dropper, you can shim it to any length drop you want. So even with a long ish seat tube, you can get perfect ride hight with max drop.

Thanks sanny.

would I buy one, probably not, I think gearboxes and internal hubs never going to be the drive train revolution that some think (or hope) they are. Cost, serviceability,interchangeability all worse (or non- existent) with a gearbox, as the designers of these bikes found, even if you bash up your mech in the Alps you can get going again, pretty much every time. That pinion needs to break just once and it's away back to them for repair, and your kicking your heels (as it happens I reckon the CC shock will go looong before the gearbox, but that's another thread waiting to happen), but any part on a bike that's effectively a sealed unit to the end user is a bad development IMO. See CP's comments on the front page.

I'm probably biased; in 25 years I've never bent/destroyed a mech, and to the question "I keep ripping off my mech" the answer could be, "Here's an expensively radical bike" another answer is "Stop riding like a oaf then..." 😆

These gearbox bikes.. Can you just use 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th gears?

Asking for a friend's wife.... 😉

Cost, serviceability,interchangeability all worse (or non- existent) with a gearbox

How often do cars need anything doing to their gearboxes, other than regular oil changes? I've never smashed a mech on a rock but I've had them implode in hideous mud, so the same end result.

Regarding the Cane Creek suspension - the original DBinline was horrifically unreliable but nothing else they've made has been. And the new version of the DB-IL is proving to be as reliable as anything from Fox or Rockshox. My DBair has been great for almost four years, serviced twice, fantastic performance, never let me down.

I like it. The design is pretty unique and its nice to see something in carbon thats not just another full or half rebadged factory frame set claiming to be their own design. Good luck to the boys!

That said, its no so surprising to see it in Carbon - the economics of small batch carbon vs alu actually mean that as long as you're pretty confident in your external design, the ultimate cost of set up and profit you'll make from one batch are about the same. You'll find it easier to shift say 30 fairly niche carbon bikes than 100 alu ones most likely.

Shirley the top idler pulley will wear really quick, all the chain force is going through it and it's small.

all the chain force is going through it and it's small

But it isn't being used to drive the bike like a chainring or sprocket, it's just having the chain pulled across it which shouldn't cause so much wear

[img] [/img]

sooo, what happened here then?

I am beginning to wonder about these pinion equipped bikes.

I've always written them off as too heavy and expensive, and I read a recent review where the fella just couldn't get past having to stop pedalling to shift which made it sound like a problem, but my existing FS is 33lbs anyway, and there are some significant benefits from that design.

sooo, what happened here then?

That looks like a chainring (mounted to a carrier on the rear hub) has broken. Wonder what chainring it is and what broke it? The pinion carrier appears to have survived but there is a chainring bolt and chunk of the ring missing. I wonder if the bolt came loose and led to the chainring failing

Rorschach - Member
Spidey sense kicks in as soon as I hear 'motor sports designer'.
Files in same box as Robot Bike Co 160, Arbr Saker etc.

Lol - What background would you rather they came from?

Wonder what chainring it is and what broke it?

that's what I'm interested in. was it hit, or did it just fail.

I'm sure there's a story behind it.

🙂

I am beginning to wonder about these pinion equipped bikes.

Try one. I love em

The frame is £3399 which includes the Pinion gearbox and DB inline shock, so actually not that expensive considering a Santa Crux Nomad frame is only £100

The price is pretty keen. Current Nicolai Pinion bike in aluminium comes in about £300 more.

For those who have ridden a Pinion box - what are they like regarding changing gear as you can't change them under load? I tend to avoid changing gear under load with a conventional drivetrain anyway, but occasionally you get caught out and I do and the drivetrain can take it, but the Pinion can't do it at all from what I can gather.

Really good to see a review from someone who managed to adapt to the Pinion within a day (well done Sanny). It's really not hard - if you ease off on a conventional gearing (as I do) then the Pinion is just the same but somehow with a slightly different timing. I actually find it better when you get caught out - conventional means mashing gears and another pedal rotation in a bigger gear than you want to be in. Pinion/Rohloff, very slight backpedal lets you drop a handful of gears if you need it and you're back on the power much more quickly.

Cost, serviceability,interchangeability all worse (or non- existent) with a gearbox/
How often do cars need anything doing to their gearboxes, other than regular oil changes? I've never smashed a mech on a rock but I've had them implode in hideous mud, so the same end result.

I've smashed a few mechs in tight rocks and seen others dragged into wheels by random sticks. I've never had a Rohloff or Pinion fail internally BUT there there are some external parts failures that could see a holiday stuffed. The spring on my Pinion tensioner broke after 4 years and it's not a custom part. Could probably have bodged something but could have been a pain.

LoveWookie - looks like a 4 arm chainring used as a rear sproket has failed. Given it's on a carrier it's a standard chainring rather than a Pinion specific part and there's no more stress on it in that use than on a normal drivetrain.

That looks like a Wolftooth carrier to me.

Bike looks great, would love a go. Desperate for a pinion/gearbox bike, my concern is I am a serial bike changer, much as I hate that fact, and adding a gearbox puts another cost layer on that.

Also I wonder how much gearbox development will be stymied by e-bikes, unless we're going to see the likes of shimano integrate a gearbox into the motor system. If not then r&d will surely continue to go into derailleur systems as they will function with a motor and without.

Also I wonder how much gearbox development will be stymied by e-bikes, unless we're going to see the likes of shimano integrate a gearbox into the motor system.

I did some work with Pinion ahead of their original launch and an integrated Pinion motor/gearbox was definitely on their roadmap.

I could see that working well. Add electronic shifting and the power could be cut for gear changes like a quick shifter on a motorcycle. Not really what I'm after though as I don't want an ebike.

Well I'm definitely sold on the concept I think the disadvantage of the additional weight of the gearbox will easily be counteracted by the fact of its positioning in the frame and the benefits of the lower unsprung weight of the rear suspension - the net benefit will be noticeable I think - much more noticeable than moving between different pivot/linkage systems on conventional bikes.

The biggest issue for me is I'd have to buy a complete bike as I'm currently on a 29er so not feasible to buy a frame only and transfer kit over...which means I'm into the £6k territory for a bike!!!! Up until recently my max budget for a car was only £5k so that is a huge leap for me. Do people actually spend that much on bikes? I know that is their RRP but people actually spend that much?? I guess if I am going to spend that much on a bike I'd be looking for a significant differentiator in performance and technology and the Pinion gearbox will probably deliver that.

I'll be looking for a test ride come February for sure.

I've never ridden a gearbox bike but having had a Rohloff for over 10 years I'll take having to back off slightly when changing gear if that gives me gear changes when stationary. As for the twist shifter I didn't really like it it to start with but now I'd be just as happy with it as trigger shifters.

I know that is their RRP but people actually spend that much??

Enough do, some even spend nearly €10,000 on a Santa Cruz

I'll take having to back off slightly when changing gear if that gives me gear changes when stationary

Downshifts into corners is an even better idea than changing when stationary for me

so that is a huge leap for me. Do people actually spend that much on bikes? I know that is their RRP but people actually spend that much??

Yep, that’s about average for me.

Edit: ha, just checked, exactly the average, almost to the penny, for the rrp of this compared to the rrps of my current squadron (I know, I know 😉 )

Hi Guys,
Just to throw our hat into the ring here and address a couple of points/questions:

- Carbon: For low volume production the cost of tooling and producing carbon fibre is very comparable with alu. So it made sense. As Sanny says the carbon finish is bomb proof - we've thrashed them and they still look new! If there is demand we'll consider an Alu model down the line.

- Pricing: We've done our best to be competitive with the pricing. As is pointed out you get an entire drivetrain with a frame only option. We think our customers can see through a spec that reduces cost with low end components that riders don't notice on the shop floor - there are no flimsy components on our builds - look at the Cane Creek 110 headset (110 year warranty and go for >£100) or Fabric Pro Team saddle for example (>£120)...

- Gearbox: You do not need to back off completely to change gear. Just reduce the torque a little and it changes fine - in the same way you would with a rear mech. It is only gripshift just now - but it works well when paired to the gearbox and the ability to shift through the entire gear range without while stationary (and without putting in some pedal strokes).

- Cane Creek: The DBAir IL did have some problems at first - we were aware of this, but we've tested our units (both IL and CS) thoroughly over the last 7 months. If they didn't perform/last we would have ditched them and spec'ed something else. In that time each bike has descended more than 2 hundred thousand vertical metres in the Alps (4 months of solid riding) and ridden plenty of wet miles in Scotland. So far I've not touched any of our Cane Creek rear shocks at all. Additionally, we'll sell you a bike frame only without a shock or we can arrange a Fox rear shock (metric sizes are hard to come by but we should have access to them soon). We can also arrange Fox forks, but again we are impressed with the Cane Creek Helm and certainly encourage anyone interested to try the bike with the Cane Creek suspension - we've found it works very well!

- Warranty: The gearbox has it's own warranty through Pinion of 5 years. We warranty our frames for 2 years.

- That picture: Caused by a loose bolt on the spider.

Any questions or if you want to demo it - give me a shout on info@deviatecycles.com.

Cheers,
Ben
deviatecycles.com

That picture: Caused by a loose bolt on the spider.

damn, I was hoping for a 'Sanny giving it large' story.

Only just bought a bloody Hightower and I'm considering a demo of a gearbox bike in a few years time 🙂

Ben, YGM

damn, I was hoping for a 'Sanny giving it large' story.

Well it did survive Mugdock 🙂

Only 2 year warrenty on a frame of that complexity / value?

I would have hoped for more especially as the gearbox is 5 years.

I do however love the overall theme of the bike, high pivot and gearbox etc.

What happened there was that I didn't check the bolts on the rear hub spider. One came loose and I managed to **** it! Entirely user error on my part. 😆

Trust me to break the rear ring! It is a Hope one that isn't spec'd on the production version. It is an easy and cheap fix too - a lot cheaper than an Eagle rear mech!

It's not the first ring I have broken nor is it likely to be the last. I've folded a granny ring before after only a handful of rides. Funnily enough, I forgot to check the bolts then too. I managed to chew a gouge out of a thick thin chainring on a one by set up too.

I really am a clumsy ****er. You would think I would learn a lesson but clearly not!

Oh and I would definitely still buy one. It would be disingenuous of me to criticise the bike for something that was entirely my fault. 😉

Sanny the destroyer of rings

Sanny the destroyer of rings

😯 niche side hobby?

On reflection, my self created moniker could be read several ways!

Well it is Friday.....

i think it's great we're starting to see more and more pinion full suspension bikes, especially since people are taking advantage of the high pivot.

Personally I'm going to wait for the Sick Bicycles full suspension to come out, mainly because it's basically a BMW Racelink which was my dream bike when I was younger.

- Carbon: For low volume production the cost of tooling and producing carbon fibre is very comparable with alu. So it made sense. As Sanny says the carbon finish is bomb proof - we've thrashed them and they still look new! If there is demand we'll consider an Alu model down the line.

I think carbon fibre is a great material but I'm worried about some of the conditions the bikes are made in and also the fact it can't really be recycled (even though it sounds like your aim is to make it bombproof).

Have you had a chance to investigate the conditions in the factory where the bikes are manufactured?

he fact it can't really be recycled

How many bikes have you recycled to date? Actually recycled, not sold on for buttons/given to charity. How many in the ‘top end of the market’ price range?

You know that carbon "sea fill" stuff that Pole kicked off about. What is the difference between that and creating a new artificial reef/ habitat stuff? I mean nobody gives the surfers crap for making their fake reefs with bags of stuff. Is carbon toxic in the water?

How many bikes have you recycled to date? Actually recycled, not sold on for buttons/given to charity. How many in the ‘top end of the market’ price range?

Personally, just one steel frame. The rest of my bikes are still in my garage.

There's also Max Commencal who wouldn't make carbon frames after seeing the conditions in one of the factories.

Look, I don't want to get into a big debate about carbon fibre with other people who aren't directly involved in its manufacture. We have two bicycle manufacturer posting on this thread so it gives us a chance to hear what they have to say about working with carbon fibre. This is relevant considering the fact that at least two manufacturers refuse to use it.

Both of them tiny boutique brands. So well done to them for having a viewpoint and acting on it. It does make a difference and whilst the working conditions of the factory guys is very important I would like to discover more about the environmental impact of carbon frame sea fill.

I think I'm the third person on the thread to have ridden the Deviate bike. One of our riding group rides with Ben and Chris in the Alps and so the bike came out on our normal grotty hilly muddy ride near Stirling in Scotland.

I had a wee ride around and it felt surprisingly nippy for its size and weight - then again, I ride a five29 and a radon slide carbon 160 normally. Gripshift was the "other way" and not really a problem. Gears are very smooth and I'm pretty sure you can change them while stationary. The chain doesn't go backwards if you back pedal (!). It *is* different suspension. feels unlike my other bikes. It was totally covered in mud when I rode it and it was working totally fine all evening.

Really worth getting a proper ride on it; it is a new class of bike - it is different although Sanny did a much better reviewin his article, I thought I'd pitch in.

I hope it's coming out tonight, it's snowing here!

I so want to try a gearbox bike. It may be my last high end bike purchase.

There's also Max Commencal who wouldn't make carbon frames after seeing the conditions in one of the factories

he's not running round stark bollock naked either ....would he stop wearing clothes if he saw those working conditions , would he **** ,

So do we tell Hope to get in the sea... errrr NOT get in the sea. I'm confused. Pole went gung-ho on the environmental issues, others on the factory conditions. Maybe it's time for an editorial feature in the Magazine I hear is linked to this website.

So that's three whataboutery responses so far. Anymore?

Like I said, I'm a fan of carbon fibre from an engineering viewpoint but I have some concerns about how it's manufactured and it's full life cycle.

There's a manufacturer here on the thread so I'm taking the opportunity to hear his take on the subject, I'm not having a go at carbon fibre.

Just like Orange Vs Hope there are two different takes on what a factory should look like.

There are Chinese factories where its all good conditions and high quality control so there is little to no waste and there are places that have old men in mucky overalls correcting out of shape frames with a big hammer.

I don’t think you can say carbon manufacturing is is bad, just some carbon manufacturing is bad just like some anything is bad.

I've never had a Rohloff or Pinion fail internally

It was a few years ago fo'shure but a user on this site repeatedly crossed rivers with his (often submerging the whole hub), and eventually it broke, Rohloff needed it back.They suggested to him that continually riding through rivers (he rode in the lakes, natch) was "extreme" and admitted that the hub wasn't sealed well enough to deal with repeated dunking. Alfine isn't designed with mtb in mind so that gets a free pass, and the issue with pinion is of course 1. not serviceable (like the rohloff) and 2. you've bought a bike that can't use any other type of drivetrain. Whether that's a problem is a buyer debate I guess.

Don't get me wrong I'm glad these bikes exist, for the folk who want a bike like this, this is a great looking bike, and I hope it sells well, and gives enormous pleasure to those who ride them.

There's a magazine?

Pinion is not serviceable in the same way as your car gearbox isn't. It's designed not to be serviceable. Nothing to service. I can imagine that if you wanted to run a conventional drivetrain on a pinion bike frame then you could make an insert that bolts into the frame pinion bracket with a conventional BB shell so you could fit a conventional drivetrain. Probably not available now, but if Pinion bikes were to become commonplace then i'm sure someone would make one.

A Pinion single speed. Top niche-ing.

Pinion is serviceable - you change the oil, once a year.....
People need to stop thinking like it's a regular transmission.
It's not however home repairable - and if it were the general public would likely do more damage.
There may well be many people on here willing and able to take a gearbox apart, but I'm certainly not one of them.

Imo this is one of the appeals of a pinion system over a regular drivetrains. Just an oil change every now and again and 'if' it goes wrong send it back. The benefits far out weigh the negatives.

honourablegeorge - Member 
A Pinion single speed. Top niche-ing.

Maybe not, it's already available

[url= http://olsenbicycles.com/shop/frame-only ]http://olsenbicycles.com/shop/frame-only[/url]

Love that Olsen.