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In the market for a smallish e-cargo bike like a Tern HSD or Quick Haul however they are very hard to come by at the moment.
Unsurprisingly there are cheap alternatives out there. came across this one on eBay, the price difference is pretty staggering.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325231931807
Any thoughts? No doubt it will be reflected in the quality of parts used.
Also Tern are the brand leader so likely you pay a premium for the name.
I'm less au fait with motors and batteries though so no idea how the Panasonic system compares to Bosch.
The claimed weight is actually less than the Quick Haul which is quite impressive.
The Panasonic part is just the battery, the motor is a Bafang which is fairly common so should be easy to get parts for.
Otherwise I know nothing!
It's got a hub motor and mid drive in the pictures but only mentions the hub motor in the description!
Remember. You get what you pay for...
No battery in the pictures either.
(Which btw seems to be the smallest e bike battery in existence today)
Like the picture of the silver bike where the chain crosses from left to right front to rear.
I’d avoid anyone that offers to ship a product with a throttle.
I think the battery is actually the lump in the middle by the BB, looks like what would be the motor on a Bosch system
I definitely am believer in "you get what you pay for" and regretting not already buying a Tern tbh!
Radwagon seems to be the cheapest of the e cargo bikes. See quite a few of them around in Bristol. Not looked if there is a history of them having issues or not.
Tern might have a good rep, they also seem to have an issue with welds failing on their folding bikes.
I’d avoid anyone that offers to ship a product with a throttle
Agreed! Sounds well dodgy, especially for a bike that most people will use for carrying their kids
https://velosta.co.uk/ < It looks like a mid drive because that’s where they’ve hidden the battery.
Not a terrible idea if using a hub motor I suppose.. keeps the weight low down.
I'm guessing that they have used a frame mount for something that takes a BB motor and fitted a battery in there instead to avoid designing something new (and it also tricks people a bit). They then pair that with a cheap hub motor
It looks like a reasonable attempt at a Tern style copy… apart from the Möbius strip silver version. Interestingly there are a lot of high end GSD inspired bikes now by for eg. R&M, Moustache, etc. as well as Benno. But they all cost about the same. The Radwagon seems to be the only budget GSD style bike that is going mainstream and I understand that it is fair value for money.
I would definitely want to test ride an unknown brand as I suspect it’s not that easy to make a copy that rides well under load. It really could be a buy cheap buy twice situation.
I have a Gen 1 GSD and while it’s not absolutely perfect it is really good although it has only done 6500 miles so far. I have bought a Quick Haul for my daughter which is also excellent and I recon is a fair price.
Like the picture of the silver bike where the chain crosses from left to right front to rear.
Oh yeah. Chain line by Mc Escher 😂
Wtf! Alarm bells!! Looks like someone can use Photoshop, but isn't sure how a bike works
I did look at a Radwagon but the relative heft and tales of being underpowered put me off - I bought a Moustache with Bosch drive for the same money.
There’s also this from Mycle Which looks like a Radwagon copy with more grunt.
The biggest alarm bell is that that stem steerer qr arrangement is not fit for a cargo bike. The number of them I saw snapped at the weld from fatigue and leverage on cheap folding bikes is criminal they are still being sold.
Calling the radwagon underpowered is probably harsh. ‘Less powered’, perhaps, but (I have one) it’s mostly down to the range the motor is geared for. I haven’t done any serious load lugging in a while (1 year old + associated pile of stuff is the usual) but it will, for example, take most of the strain off a rider on a pedal bike who chooses to hang on up a one chevron hill. My local two chevron hill is about the only thing round here that requires you to put any work in and even that’s not exactly breaking a sweat territory.
All that said- it doesn’t feel like a mid motor when it comes to going up hill, it definitely does bog down at lower speeds and that feels a bit disappointing, but after a year I don't think it really matters from a practical point of view. Drivetrain should last longer with a hub drive too.
If you live somewhere where you’re constantly going to be going up and down really steep hills, or fairly steep hills with really big loads, the hub vs mid drive is likely make or break. If it’s an occasional thing I’d say it doesn’t need to be that high on your list.
I’d still love a tern, but I could buy two radwagons instead… The two things I’d really like from the tern are actually more to do with packaging- the rad doesn’t have that neat ‘park on the rear rack’ feature and is just generally bigger and chunkier to store. Probably more equivalent to the benno to be honest.
If you can live without the "E", then you can still pickup OFO bikes for <£100.
I'm mildly irritated that mine won't take a mid-drive conversion. But then in however many years of abuse I've only had to the odd repair.
Seatpost broke, saddle is now sagging, tyres have lost their shape, front rack needed it's bracket repairing. Which for the abuse I've given it isn't a bad run! I've got some Schwalbe marathons to go on it, and still considering a front wheel hub motor just to lend a hand up the motorway bridge when fully loaded.
If you can live without the “E”, then you can still pickup OFO bikes for <£100.
... "E and cargo" surely. . Meaning rather than the original brief of an "e cargo bike" he will have a "bike" ? Albe it a cheap one
“E and cargo” surely. . Meaning rather than the original brief of an “e cargo bike” he will have a “bike” ? Albe it a cheap one
A tern isn't really a 'cargo' bike though is it? It's a town bike with front and rear baskets/racks, like an OFO
Which term ? The gsd is a low COG long tail. While you have got that big box on there it's hardly a reasonable location.
Would have been much nicer on the low long tail deck if given the choice.
Like wise if you had a couple of kids to carry . Terns built for it and handling won't be utterly horrible in the same was it will be once you shoe horn them onto the ofo.
If you're getting any ebike, buy local. So much easier for the inevitable updates and bits and pieces that will need done. Random eBay with a throttle, most shops won't touch them.
I looked at these whilst hunting for a cheaper cargo bike, they seem to be a lot smaller than they look in the ebay pic...
A tern GSD....
In the end we managed to get a 2nd hand 2019 Radwagon. I think it's technically illegal though as it's got a 750w motor (which feels less powerful than the 250w Shimano motor on my emtb) and a throttle, tho this suggests throttle is ok...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet#:~:text=General%20requirements%20%2D%20EAPC%20classification,-The%20EAPC%20regulations&text=The%20requirements%20are%20the%3A,the%20vehicle%20reaches%2015.5%20mph
Ours gets up hills with 2 kids on just fine, plus it's got regenerative braking so you get some power back on the way down!
Which term ?
The one* the OP is talking about.
*well, an off-brand Quickhaul
Yeah if you squint it's mint. But it ain't a tern. The hsd he actually wants is a long tail as I mentioned
A tern isn’t really a ‘cargo’ bike though is it? It’s a town bike with front and rear baskets/racks, like an OFO
I would suggest that the GSD, HSD and Quick Haul are definitely cargo bikes. They are built to take and handle well with the extra weight and have a plethora of accessories made to help you load them.
My GSD is pretty heavy and overbuilt for a simple town bike.
would suggest that the GSD, HSD and Quick Haul are definitely cargo bikes.
The hsd he actually wants is a long tail as I mentioned
Indeed, except as he pointed out those are £4k-£6k.
So the alternative was something that looked like a quickhaul but for 1/4 the price.
I know this is STW, but if the criteria is "Y is 4x too expensive", then the answer to the question isn't "Y".
Y is 4x too expensive”, then the answer to the question isn’t “Y”.
Yes I believe the answer is infact 7
Thanks all. Fully aware it's not a Tern and it'll be less good in various ways. Just interesting to know what £2k less gets you.
Other than the obvious concerns about the seller/brand being a teensy bit cowboy, the fact the motor and battery may be rubbish, and have zero support, I'll look elsewhere!
Interesting to hear thoughts on other brands like radwagon and benno too.
Didn’t decathlon do one for the Europeans only.
See if you can get one shipped to a willing friend.
If you have any.
In Europe.
https://www.decathlon.de/p/e-lastenfahrrad-cargobike-r500e-longtail/_/R-p-329177
Other thoughts on the radwagon, in no particular order.
It’s great fun, I’ve don’t think I’ve broken double figures on solo car trips within my local area in the nearly-a-year we’ve had it.
It is an absolute tank to move about though. I need to build a more convenient house for it as my other half can’t brute it up the steps to where it lives now.
Component spec is built to a price but entirely functional for the job. I was expecting to change the brakes for something beefier in short order and probably still will at some point, but I feel no pressing need. Gears are fine. Lights are be seen only, we use battery lights to see where we’re going on dark lanes. That’s a planned upgrade if it’s used enough in the dark this winter to justify the convenience.
Kickstand is very useful but I recommend covering the feet with a bit of old tyre or similar as they scrape.
Get the front rack not basket, much more flexible. I regret my decision to get the basket!
The big thing I’d say is to think about whether you ‘really’ need the long tail as it adds quite a bit of weight and awkwardness to the bike. I’m expecting to get a lot more use out of the longtail as Cygnet853 gets bigger but if that wasn’t the case and I was replacing it I’d seriously think about a short ebike and a trailer for occasions when i needed the cargo space.
Cheers, useful to hear. Had the same thoughts about the GSD, just feels a bit too big and hefty for the majority of trips it'd be used for. I'll find out next week as we're hiring one to use around London!
I think the only problem with tern and many of that ilk is they're one size fits all, when in fact as we all know, it doesn't.
Great if you are about 5'9", but too small or to tall its a bit off.
That does look quite small. I really liked the GSD, still do, but it was a lot of money. I'm using a Surly Big Dummy with a bafang kit. Very useful for local stuff or mini trips with the kids. Will take a lot of stuff though it does get unwieldy at the top end - recently had a full supermarket trip of stuff plus two kids, that was a heavy bike with a wobbly trip home!
Have you got somewhere to store it ok? My big dummy is huge, the GSD can stand up on its end which I thought was a neat feature.
I borrowed a GSD for a while, it was good but not without fault. Getting it on the upright stand isn't easy & if you have room to do it, you've probably room to store it normally.
I'd happily go for one of these Velosta but then I ham happy tinkering & swapping stuff... which I'd do on the Tern anyway.
a lot of Radwagons round here, people seem universally pleased with them.
couple of Mycles popping up to.
RE hub motors: i looked at the differences, and Hub motors never have the same torque for the 250W limit. more like 40Nm, where as a mid drive will give you 90Nm.
Having said that, they are much cheaper, and they dont eat up your drive chain! a mid drive will go through chains and sprockets much much quicker (obviously)
A hub motor isnt adding any wear anywhere (one tyre, nominally)
Also, if the Hub motor does fail, you can remove all the e-bits and still ride the bike! Hub motors are pretty integral. Dead motors is a dead bike.
i think a "bike guy", might initially turn his nose up at the OE or no brand parts on a Rad or a Mycle, but its not supposed to be a nice bike. Its a pickup truck to use and abuse.
The only thing i would caution is i think Rad use a proprietary wheel size, so if you do have an issue with a bent wheel, or a ripped tyre, you are beholden to Rad (as far as im aware).
I dont know whether the frame has clearance to rebuild the fat 22" onto a regular 24" or 26" Rim.
I quite like the look of that Velosta. I would be happy to buy that, just bearing in mind i might be replacing some of the no name parts sooner than others.
Probably not CE marked, but its not like they dont know how to Weld over in the far east. Frame will probably be fine. What would you do if the mid drive motor ate it? thats probably the biggest worry.
Do any of the GSD-likes have something like the clubhouse fort?
We're thinking of ditching a car completely but we're up in Inverness so being able to keep the kids out of the worst of the weather is the most appealing thing about the GSD for me.
Not sure how those things would handle in a cross wind, but there's similar things available for Radwagons and Yuba that might be adapted to fit. Some people have even bodged on those cheap mobility scooter rain covers.
https://www.xtracycle.com/blog/support/how-can-i-protect-my-kiddos-from-rain-snow-and-sun/
I think the front loading cargo bikes are better for keeping kids out of the rain.
Ours just wear waterproofs, though it's a nightmare getting them on our 5 year old who insists she doesn't like the feel of them.
https://velosta.co.uk/features%2Fspec <- if you're in london you can get a test ride so it doesn't seem like a scam. You can at least find out wtf is going on with that chain!
You can at least find out wtf is going on with that chain!
It'll be the same thing that used to go on with the mid 2000s Scott brochure mock ups.
Used to be a game to spot the missing rotors and mixed up chains.
The person doing it knew Photoshop but not bikes.nor cared.
I think the only problem with tern and many of that ilk is they’re one size fits all, when in fact as we all know, it doesn’t.
I’m a 6’1” and the GSD fits me fine. It’s quite short in terms of ‘cockpit’ but not uncomfortably so. I sat on it for 3 hours today and was very comfy.
Getting it on the upright stand isn’t easy & if you have room to do it, you’ve probably room to store it normally.
Its a bit of a nack but when you get used to it you can do it in a small space; like the corridor of a local train!
I’m sounding like a Tern fanboi now… which wasn’t my intention. All I can say is that the two bikes we have aren’t perfect but are pretty good. The GSD and the Quick Haul are quite different and the QH is much lighter and more manageable and less than £3k… and some shops like Surge give you a load of accessories for that price.
I did look at the Radwagon but I decided to jump in the deep end price wise as I knew I’d use it lots and I live up the top of a steep hill.
I did wonder for a moment about getting a Short Haul for my daughter and converting it to save a bit of cash… but I thought the savings weren’t enough to justify the hassle and possibly compromised result.
Not as compact, but...
I was looking at Tern GSDs etc, excellent bike (though have seen some with terrible frame alignment issues), but decided against one as though it would not be as flexible long term.
I went with a non-assisted Circe Helios - it has gone from kid/cargo carry now into kid also pedalling! mostly.
There is a Steps version available and whilst there has always been separable option, Circle has expanded this out to be even more flexible - think they make the Helios a much better long term option.
Though you don't have to have the separable option and can also be retrofitted, ideal if you pick a Helios up 2nd hand
More info:
https://www.circecycles.com/products/helios/
as another option, though not sure when available.
The people behind the Vello folder (The lightweight folding bike - with / without electric assist – VELLO BIKE), are launching this:
VELLO SUB Smart Utility Bike | Indiegogo
So...
In my quest to buy something that wasn't a Tern, I've ended up with ... drumroll...
A Tern!
Decided to follow the crowd and get a GSD, 1 week in and I'm very happy with it.
With 2 kids we realised there wasn't much point in buying a bike that we'd soon outgrow.
Over half term we went to London and hired a GSD to get around on. Never thought I'd say this, but it made going to London a fantastic family holiday.
But, as expected storage is the main issue and for the time being it's in the hallway, but I'll look into getting a shed for it.
I did look at some of the other brands, but liked the idea of small wheels and belt drive.
I bought it from Surge and with their 10% deal it came in at roughly £6k all in, doubling my record for amount spent on a bike!