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Morning all.
As some of you will have seen my lad is a budding wanabee racer.
Over the last 18 months he's had multiple training sessions from Katy Curd, Tom Reynolds and it's going well, i get the impression they rate him highly as a rider/racer. It's very interesting that both their techniques in terms of jumping are very different. Which can lead to a little complication as he's getting a lot of information to absorb and decide which of these trainings is the way forward for him.
Due to Covid type stuff our racing has been very limited this season, we did a Haibike Enduro in Wales where he finished 19th out of 40 in the 13-16 class (He turned 13 the week before).
We've now got 2 upcoming races which suit his age cat a bit better.
Southen Enduro at Milland. This has an Under 14 cat, so fits nicely for him and we also have a DH race in Caersws, Gravity Events Uk Rnd3 Caersws. The Cat for this is 13-14 so again, happy with that.
Last week at 417 Flyup he was practicing a trail and ended up 11th overall on Strava and 1st this year. Now i know not everyone Stravas of course, but stil, getting 1s of a Top 10 on a trailcenter with 4,000 people who've ridden it means he's going pretty well i think. (hopefully).
So the next 2 races will give us an indication of both what he wants to race, DH or Enduro and where he fits within the grand scheme of things.
I make it clear to him that racing HAS to be a choice thing for him and if he doesn't want to race then that's cool and we'll just 'play' instead, but he's certain at this stage he enjoys the competitive aspect of things and wants to race.
I guess the big question here is, what's the best series for him in terms of raising his profile as a rider. He'd like to 'make' it, but of course so would all the kids out there and whilst that may be unrealistic, i'll certainly do my best to make it happen for him, within certain time and financial constraints of course. There's only so much holiday and so much money i can put in.
One of the minor stumbling blocks is location, being down south seems to make it tougher and that leads us to Southern Enduro as being the potential plan for next year. But i'm curious to see if him racing DH (with uplift) ticks the boxes more as it's 'harder' terrain.
Obviously if he goes racing DH then that may bring a level of complexity for us in terms of bikes he rides as a DH bike isn't ideal locally. But he's currently on a Sworks Enduro with 150mm both ends and set up nicely so he's not exactly on a terrible bike.
Any thoughts about what we should or shouldn't race appreciated.
well firstly i am massively envious of his ability to jump with what looks like little effort!
Its good that you have outlined that it should be done for fun, rather than forced. As you say, being down south the choices are limited. Southern Enduro is a good shout (see you at Milland!), pedal hounds might be worth a look, assuming he like pedalling through grassy fields.
Maybe a racing 'budget' needs to be set to allow you to travel to races further afield? Some of the southern welsh enduros (assuming they exist?!).
My buddy takes his 3 kids motocross racing nearly every weekend, it must cost a fortune, but its a fun family affair for them, so makes it worth it.
So long story short, i have little input, other than he looks like he rips and i wish him all the best!
pedal hounds might be worth a look, assuming he like pedalling through grassy fields.
Swinley Summit / Bike Hub guys are starting doing it next year, but like you say, it looks a bit 'grassy fields' to me and not really something to progress his skills.
No real experiance but as a suggestion, I'd aim to do a complete series so he can develop friendships and rivalries with the other racers in his cat. The yoof in my local CX league seem to have a great time pre- and post- race
For all the reasons Ferrals says, do a complete series if possible with a big national event as the cherry on the race cake 🙂
Used to take my son to a lot of climbing comps around the country and meeting up with all the regulars was a big part of it. Most importantly, have fun and make sure that you inflict your musical tastes on him during the trips to the events 🤣👍 Oh and,DO NOT BECOME A COMPETITIVE DAD 😉
I’d aim to do a complete series so he can develop friendships and rivalries with the other racers in his cat.
That's deffo the plan yes.... Currently i'm expecting it to be Southern Enduro.
I do not mean this in a negative way, as he's clearly a good rider and you're right to be proud, but 19th out of 40 doesn't scream child prodigy.
Look at the top riders in those categories - I regularly get smoked by a local 13 year old who is now achieving podiums at national u15 races. At the last Welsh Enduro an u16 was 3rd overall. A 16 year old has been cleaning up at national level u18 dh and enduros and consistently top 10 overall.
I would temper any talks of raising his profile or making it, and just look to enjoy riding and gain experience. Riding an enduro at DH races will be perfectly fine for this.
Contrary to the above, I would try events across different organisers rather than having to plan your schedule around an individual series. This will provide experience of different terrain, race formats and opportunities to race against different people.
Maybe once he's not the youngest in the category and he has more experience he may wish to focus on a single series to compete for the overall.
I regularly get smoked by a local 13 year old who is now achieving podiums at national u15 races. At the last Welsh Enduro an u16 was 3rd overall. A 16 year old has been cleaning up at national level u18 dh and enduros and consistently top 10 overall.
That's kinda why we're off to Caersws this month for the DH race on the 11/12th, to see where he fits against the others. As i say, i have no idea. His 19th was his first ever Enduro and first time at the location, so we were happy with the result.
Having spent many an hour sat in the uplift truck chatting to the 2021 Junior World Champs silver medalist Jordon Williams dad, I’d say you need to spend every weekend driving hundreds of miles, up and down the country racing, enter a Pearce cycles race to see where his level really is.
https://www.pearcecycles.co.uk/events
If you did all the southerns, pedalhounds, and the south wales races that is probably 1/3 of your years weekends taken up.
Most of them dont involve time off work (assuming you are working mon-fri), maybe a few fridays off for some of the multi day events.
Is he your only kid, and is your wife/partner at least vaguely supportive of the whole thing?
Some events you might want to race too, others you might be happier being pit dad.
From your other threads I think this is probably well within your skill level and financial means, but you might want to learn how to repair/build wheels as he gets faster and heavier...
Enter a few DH races for fun, but to take it seriously you need to A) move, and B) buy a DH bike.
Go look up Danny Harts dad for advice on what not to do.
Cheers Jim.... interesting one...
The driving hundreds of miles is less likely than i think he or i will go with.... well, not more than once a month for example. Which is a bit of a stumbling block potentially, but i don't want the racing to be all absorbing and 100% of his life...
Yes, i know that's what makes an elite athlete, but i feel is unrealistic for many parents.
Is he your only kid, and is your wife/partner at least vaguely supportive of the whole thing?
Yeah he's our only one. Wife is supportive, but as i say above, within reason... With entries themselves being £70-80 a pop, then hotel, food, transport/diesel etc it really does mean once a month is viable, but very 2nd weekend, i'm not seeing it. I don't see us leaving every Fri to come back Sunday and just leaving the wife at home... .that's not going to fly.
Some races i'll ride, but that'd be enduro not DH races... i'm not good enough to race Enduro let alone a DH race LOL.
The southerns (with the exception of the champs in Exmoor) are one day events and are all (I think I’ve done them all at least once) doable in a day trip from Berkshire.
I think about £35-40 entry, Under a tenner for for a cooked lunch with a drink.
The southerns (with the exception of the champs in Exmoor) are one day events and are all (I think I’ve done them all at least once) doable in a day trip from Berkshire.
I think about £35-40 entry, Under a tenner for for a cooked lunch with a drink.
Aye, that's why I'm seeing them as being our most likely plan for next year
Just checked on Southern Enduro and noticed they've opened the entries for Minehead, so me and him are entered in that too now.
Do it for fun and the experience, but not with any expectation or even hope of 'making it'. Where he fits relative to his peers isn't really important - someone has to be mid-table, or below, or races wouldn't happen!
My son races BMX at a high level regionally and mid-pack nationally. We did the British championships this weekend. The winner of his age category rides up a year (so could ride as an 11 year old, but rides as a 12) was 4 seconds behind Kye Whyte's time at the same meeting (36s v 32s). He was 2 seconds slower than Beth Shriever. My son, who wins some races in the SW, was 8 seconds behind Kye Whyte's time. So the difference between my son (who didn't have a great day, admittedly) and the winner of his category is about the same as between that kid and the olympic silver medalist.
Those are the kids that *may* make it riding bikes. There are some scarily talented kids out there.
But, my son gets to hang out with his BMX and bike friends, race in front of a couple of thousand people, and learns a lot about pressure, hard work, resilience, success, and failure (mostly failure!). He's got bike skills that he'll be able to enjoy for as long as he rides. As long as he wants to race I'll support him, as I really think it is incredible for his development as a person.
So do it, but at this stage forget about success (in any terms other than his own development) or his 'profile as a rider', as you're most likely on to a hiding to nothing. If he improves dramatically it may happen, but it seems unlikely given his opportunities to practice and the head start that many other kids have (seen any Harry Schofield vids recently?!)*
*Thankfully Harry races BMX the year below my son!
Well it looks like the boy now has races 3 weekends on the bounce.
11/12th in Caersws for Downhil Gravity series.
19th at Forest of Dean for Downhill
26/27th for Southern Enduro series.
Having seen a colleague support his son from fun around the park events to WC DH and Enduro World Series, I would suggest that being prepared to travel every weekend is a must. Buy a caravan or camper. Work out how much a tank of fuel a week is, plus entry fees, bike, kit etc. If they were not racing, they were part of Scottish Cycling RACE/coached weekends, or their own club.
He was fortunate and earned some local sponsorship such as employer allowing use of a work van, local shop did deal on trade price parrts.
It took at least 5+ years of this it seemed before some better support came along.
However, it seems to have paid off - although it is still hard to get sponsorship.
cheers matt.
I’d say you need to spend every weekend driving hundreds of miles, up and down the country racing, enter a Pearce cycles race to see where his level really is.
https://www.pearcecycles.co.uk/events/blockquote >Basically that. During race season, I would kind of expect that to be the norm if that's the route you all want to go. It's one hell of a commitment (time wise and financially).
As much as I enjoyed doing them (and still do, although I pick and chose my venues) the Southerns are a bit 'Tommee Tippee My First Enduro Race' - the tracks are short & easy, as are the climbs generally. Which is fine at his age, because I can't imagine he wants to go and ride a 40km+ loop with 1500m of climbing on back to back days for practice & racing at something like a Scottish Enduro Series race or a big PMBA day (with some pretty full on race stages).
I would keep it fun, do a year of Southerns, some of the Mini Enduro's, throw in the odd DH race & for an eye opener, go & do a Pearce DH race or two. At that age he will be like a sponge. By the end of next year you might be in a place where you can make a decision to have a proper go at it.
Yeah, have a look for a couple of race series that are nearby and aim to do the whole series. Over the first couple of races, a camaraderie will develop between racer and the competition - it'll be mostly friendly and encouraging (until the race starts!) and it will provide more enthusiasm and encouragement as well.
A few of the juniors in the bike club have done that and they have come on leaps and bounds and have also become much better at socialising as they are chatting amongst their peers.
Encourage as much as you can't but don't push him and become that annoying parent, but certainly encourage him. I'd suggest not worrying too much about getting picked up (if so, join a local club and BC and see if he can get on to a training program or something) yet and let him find what he really enjoys and then encourage him to push it as far as he can.
Encourage as much as you can’t but don’t push him and become that annoying parent, but certainly encourage him. I’d suggest not worrying too much about getting picked
Anyone who knows me will know there's no danger of that. I do like talking about him and admiring his ability/skills, but that's where it ends, the pushy angry parent thing isn't me and never will be, i do this partly because he enjoys it and because i enjoy it too.
The 'getting picked up' thing is in his mind, not mine. He's a kid of the YouTube and Instagram generation and he sees all the riders like Pilgrim etc who get all sorts of sponsored kit and that's where he wants himself to be. He doesn't see the 10,000 other superb riders who get absolutley nothing and have to work 15 hours a day to pay for racing. He's quite a lucky lad that me and the wife are picking up the bills, but there's a limit to our realistic finances we're prepared to spend, so it's not going to be Fox 38s on the bike and Fox Proframe helmets, but within reason, he'll get whatever he needs to do as well as he can. There's a couple of criteria behind that of course with him being the right kind of child and the right kind of school results.... Which will hopefully keep him grounded.
He’s a kid of the YouTube and Instagram generation and he sees all the riders like Pilgrim etc who get all sorts of sponsored kit and that’s where he wants himself to be.
Think he might learn a hard lesson there. People who make a living mtbing on social media who are NOT doing it as a tie-in to international level competition must be countable on your fingers.
I think it's just kids of this generation. They see people making money just opening boxes, doing stupid stuff, playing x-box and they think it's a viable reality for them. Not realising that it's a very small minority. So i don't think there's much of a lesson needed in honesty, it's just how their brains work and a simplistic look on life. Of course we try and keep him in check with what's possible.. but he's small and likes to dream, just like any other kid wanting to play for Man City, or whatever.
Good luck for the races Weeksy, and most importantly, hope you both enjoy them.
After a couple of seasons of PMBA and Welsh Enduro under 16s, my son very soon discovered that he didn't have the focus, or competitive streak needed to be a "contender" - and we didn't have the money or time to put into supporting it. So he, and me and mum, managed our expectations. He loves mountain biking, rides almost every day, effectively studies it at BASE in the tweed valley, races regularly and will be forever 11th. Works in a bike shop during holidays.
He might place a bit higher when the A team (who have generally been racing bikes regularly since they were 8 or 9) are away at worlds and he's not. He'd like to be able to have a career in coaching or guiding, his personality would complement that. He's part of a supportive and respectful little - well quite big really - MTB community, and appears to be happier and more full-filled than most of his high school contemporaries. Now that he's more self sufficient me and his mum can now have odd weekends away watching races and not having to be pit mechanics, medics and sports psychologists.
Hope it doesn't sound humblebraggy, but he's gained a whole lot from racing and being part of the circuit, he's never been on the podium, and he (and his parents!) are happy and proud as. And we never bought a van!
@gallowayboy doesn't sound braggy in any way at all, it's fab to hear all perspectives and all sides of different experiences. The bike shop thing and the coaching, i see as a far more realistic prosepct for him than making it as the next Bruni, so seeing that someone else is actively carving out a niche from it is brilliant to read.
Because like yourself i'm actively into MTBing, i should be OK doing the 'at another forest' but as i said earlier, there's a limit to know much i'll be happy doing it both in terms of funding and in terms of time.
He's very much looking forward to this new race that's come up on the 19th at FoD as it's almost 'home turf' for him and he knows the courses well (assuming they use a known layout) but even if they don't, he'll know it by the end of the day and picks things up quickly.
Oh, and you'll need a sponsorship deal with Smidge.....
only if we go to Scotland, assuming that's what i expect it is 😀
Balance racing with enjoyment, just riding, seeing mates and family life. He will also feel pressure to perform from the support that you give him, taking him to races etc, whether or not he ever expresses that to you and however much you play it down. If you are a social media user use it carefully for his racing if at all. When going away make him responsible for the packing of his own kit and weekend stuff, this may lead some huge frustrations (normally only once), but teaches excellent life skills and will prepare him well for independent life.
Alex Dowsett put up a couple of vids on advice to juniors then U23 riders - it's obv a very different scene on the road or track but they're good content, might get some stuff to think about.
He speaks quite a bit about early / late developers, not sure if this is as relevant for DH but it must be part of it.
Cool thread this. Some nice ideas, and I thought @ianpv thoughts were really cool.
Think the early/late developer thing is highly relevant too. Anyone who's played rugby aged 14 (and been smashed to bits by the early ones!) knows what I'm talking about! And there are different facets to going fast that develop at different times.
I think a lot of sports more or less shut the doors to a lot of kids who aren't top class aged 11ish. Thankfully I think the structure of very individual sports like mtb means you can probably push your way in at different ages if you find the % you need to improve.
I randomly selected Jack Moir on Roots and Rain, just to see how he did when he was a kid, and he definitely wasn't smoking everyone week-in week-out from the year dot, even in regional age-cat races. Might be fun to skim a few top riders on it and see how their results developed.
Well this weekend is race weekend at Caersws
A few of you may know one or two of the guys who are entered this weekend including Billy Pugh who dominated 2019 Enduro/DH racing. There's another couple of highly ranked riders racing too in UK rankings.
Will be great to see how he stacks up, but most importantly he'll get used to joining in with the other lads i hope. From what we've seen, the lads racing this weekend will be the same lads racing for the next couple of weekends too, it's like a travellin circus. So his job is not only to ride and race but to make a few race mates too.
Sat is practice day with Sun being race day.... but i think we'll have another little thread for that
Hope it keeps dry and he enjoys it 😎
Thanks Tracey, you of course know where both mine and his heads are at currently as you've been there more than most
Race weekend begins. After a night of laughs and banter in the Premier Inn, this morning brings us sunshine in Oswestry. The area is actually lovely, hilly, foresty, I'm amazed it's not more popular.
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Today is breakfast followed by a day of uplifted practice. Learning the course is order of the day, along of course with have fun which as always is the primary goal.
Unless something breaks, he'll be on the Sworks. But the G170 as you can see is here as emergency spare.
In some ways it'll be weird sending him off and not trying to follow him. But then again, it's something I need to come to terms with as I'm not a DH racer.
Good luck with this. Enjoy it, all of it. As others have said, it will teach about success and failure, resilience and build great friendships.
Be careful what you wish for. A mate's (17 year old) son is a national level swimmer, open water age group champ a year or two back. Their lifestyle is crazy!
Good luck and enjoy it !
Sounds like this is too late - but did he walk the course yesterday? If not, it’s not a worry but worth doing for future races. Theories around that walking the course in advance is worth 2-3 practice runs, I could quite believe it from the rare times I was organised enough to do so
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Crazy steep, proper rooty and sketchy!!!! The boys are on practice run 3 currently. Then taking a rest.
I'm very very glad I'm not riding it from the bits I've seen.
@mashr no mate, we couldnt get here till 8 pm as he was at school
Yeah figured that might’ve been the case, time of year doesn’t help for late evening recces either. If there’s time even on the Saturday morning it can still be worthwhile. And if the lad complains you can show him endless Vital MTB videos of the pros doing track walks when they race 😉
Enjoy, and good luck James 🤘✊
Crazy steep, proper rooty and sketchy!!!!
I’m very very glad I’m not riding it from the bits I’ve seen.
Does he ride comparably technical stuff on a regular basis? If not, he'll always be playing catch up when it comes to just coping with the terrain at races. It's one thing being quick on groomed trails, quite another on less predictable stuff.
Does he ride comparably technical stuff on a regular basis
Yeah but not often as steep I guess
Run 7 and his riding mate Olly came down and crashed on the steep techie section, about the 12th person we'd seen crash on that bit.
3s later my lad stacks it about 4' earlier than Olly.
Sadly for us it was a bigger one and he ended up in an ambulance for 45 mins. Thoughts were of possible breaks as he took a while to get much in the way of moving
Happily it's just cuts and bruises and assuming he can walk tomorrow he's got the all clear to ride.
My son did a season with 3 local downhills and 3 enduros in the tweed valley . He won one of the short enduros as was slightly older at 16 than the real fast guys who were all 15 . He got older discovered Girls and ganja and now just breaks his bones for fun instead of results. Fast forward a couple of years since he raced and my mates sons are 13 and 15 . Like my son they have raced SDA and the tweedlove enduros . In my eyes they are younger and at a higher level to my boy . At the enduros they do brilliantly ranging between 5th and 12th in a strong field at the SDA's they are down the list as It is a totally different mentality . As a result I think next year they will concentrate on the enduro side . Two of my mates had their sons racing since they were 10 to finally losing all interest at around 15 /16. They just got jaded their dads are normal guys not motocross dads with loads of money . The thing was the kids they raced with in the end weren't their pals and woudln't track walk with anyone in case they gave away lines etc. As someone stated please dont become one of these , Look at guys like Reece Wilson a former world champ who is sound and that way because his dad didn't blow smoke up his arse and put pressure on him .
Good luck to your son though he seems to have talent , From riding down in the tweed valley we have all watched for years the young guys from since they were 10 to now riding junior world cups . Just a shame they are the same age as jackson Goldstone.
Well he's up, dressed, we've vacated the room and we're about to head to track. Race time!
Hope he enjoys it, keep us updated. 👍
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He's out but after run 1 isn't exactly flowing with confidence.
Practice run 1 is done.
Race run 1 is 12:01
From my experiences with my son who has been diving for ten years. It has to be fun, that's the only way they'll stick with it. Results on the way up aren't that important. The kids with pushy parents generally don't go the distance, it's horrible seeing parents and kids shouting and bawling at each other at competitions. One thing I've noticed from his training which I think might be transferable is how much time they spend doing the basics, drills they've been doing from the start. If they've had a break for holidays etc there's a lot of focus on those basic drills before they get back to the harder stuff. Or if they're having trouble with a dive they break it down and work on the different parts. That's something I try and do as a mtber, ride easier trails so you can think about what you're doing, or ride a little slower and then build back up.
Run 2 done. Course like talcum powder everywhere.
Run 2 seems better in his head and he looked good out there compared to run1.
Race run 1 completed. Both riders down to the bottom without issue.
We need an update 🙂
Apologies. We then had to pack up and get home, it's a long drive back.
Race 2 didn't quite work, he got tangled up with tape/pole and lost a bit of time, despite feeling he did better on the rest of it, he didn't improve his time.
However, talking to the Marshall who watched him this morning in practice and was chatting to him was interesting as he said on run 1 the boy stopped at the top of the section he crashed on and looked super nervous, they chatted and the Marshall was 100% sure my lad was going to bail and fire road it down. The suddenly he says "ok, let's go" and went flying down.
To then do 2 race runs was awesome from him.
We're back home now and he's properly delicate and can barely move, so I'm proper proud of him for taking the pain and putting it in.
We're both a little surprised at the pace of his opponents, but it's why we went racing and why we've got the next 4 weekends racing.
We’re both a little surprised at the pace of his opponents
I think this will always be the case with riding and trying to work out how to channel this as future mental drive rather than it being demotivating for the kids is important.
I'm trying to take a step back from my kids riding and following the Jolanda Neff attitude that skills is better than younger age cardio and let the kids dictate their riding with fun as a focus rather than looking at results inside the tape. I do look forwards to the kids being of age that they can go to the season long event series, but unless we have a decent group of kids who gel together and have a blast doing it, I think for my guys it would be counter productive.
I'm massively jealous of both my kids steeziness on a bike, but more than aware there's loads more steezy kids out there too.
The other trouble is that unless you have access or the ability to put your riders into a significant amount of on-the-bike time in varied/extreme terrain then theres already a kid better suited to achieving in races. There's a reason Finn Iles, Jackson Goldstone, Jesse Melamed etc are where they are.
But that's not to say that podium results are the only reason to participate. As my grandparents used to say, "Its the taking part that counts"
hope you guys continue to enjoy racing and the time together too!
Nice one Weeksy. Very inspiring.
( and also in awe of the amount of time you spend sorting your son's bike out so he can compete)
The terrain was tough on the bike actually. His rear caliper mount bolt came loose and have him a squeal at the end of practice. Along with his main pivot bolt being slightly loose.
Talking to parents was awesome, so so friendly and helpful, honestly stunned with how nice they were. But also eyes opened with some of them, glentress, inners, South Wales, the Hamsterley in 4 consecutive weekends. Another had 26 out of the next 52 weekends booked away as they race 4X too.
Financially, emotionally and in terms of a family, that's not a road we're prepared to go down.
We also had a chat about him feeling bad as I wasn't able to race this weekend, which I think will lead us into Enduro more than DH after this year I think. We both love spending time together and riding.
There was also the "if you don't wanna race, that's cool, we'll just go playing" which I thought I ought to mention.
The last thing coming up is bike debates, with the 2105/16 SWorks coming to an end in terms of sizing for him, it's something we need to consider for next year too, DH or 170mm enduro as the options for example. But that's a whole other thread sometime.
Overall though we both had a fab weekend away and dont regret a second of it. Lessons learned for both me, him and out riding mate/parent.
Well done both. I’m sure that the race was an eye opener. You think you’re pretty good, then watching properly fast riders in the flesh is mind blowing. I think the main thing at that age is if it stops becoming fun then best to have a rethink. Ride for fun, and if the results come, then great.
Couple of other things to consider. Kids that age differ considerably physically. A mate of mine has a lad of a similar age and he’s already about my size and built like a tank, much more power to muscle a bike around than a smaller lad of the same age which can make a big difference riding DH than riding smooth bike parks and jumps.
Second thing is the experience of riding different terrain. Riding bike parks is great, but most of the runs are well groomed and flowy. Great fun but leaves a big gap in the DH skill set if you don’t spend a lot of time on steep / tech runs. I feel that a lot of riders can look great in the park and then struggle on more natural terrain if they don’t normally ride it. If you go to BPW as much as it’s nice to ride the flow trails, sessioning the tech reds and blacks is going to reap rewards. Locally I’m not too sure where to suggest, but if you get to the Surrey Hills spend some time on the steep side of pitch hill for example.
Bike wise, personally I think the versatility of a modern enduro bike is hard to beat. You won’t lose a lot DH, especially in this country, and still have a bike you can ride around. Unless of course you have the cash to drop on 2 bikes. Ignore this if the aim is to be at the pointy end of national level DH races as appreciate dedicated equipment is important here.
Best of luck for the next few weeks.
There's deffo no scope for 2 bikes in this house, so what we get is what we'll use, but that's a fair way away, maybe winter, but deffo no changes right now.
Finding terrain like this is not easy locally, well, impossible actually. FoD on the Ski Run etc is about the best I can think of. But still not really comparable.
The trails changed massively in the 48 hours we were there, just run after run changes them lots.
Fascinating thread! Cheers 😊
Talking to parents was awesome, so so friendly and helpful, honestly stunned with how nice they were. But also eyes opened with some of them, glentress, inners, South Wales, the Hamsterley in 4 consecutive weekends. Another had 26 out of the next 52 weekends booked away as they race 4X too.
See my comment about buying a caravan and being prepared to travel....
I too think you need to keep it fun.
One day however, if you think he still wants to go places, you may end up back at that decision.
We’re both a little surprised at the pace of his opponents, but it’s why we went racing and why we’ve got the next 4 weekends racing.
As you alluded to, the quick ones (whatever their age) are committed to racing a lot in season - and if they arnt racing, they are uplifting on top.
Also the ‘depth of speed’ is far greater at a DH race than pretty much any enduro I’ve done (bar EWS’s!). The mindset is different as is the approach - although unless you are right at the top the transfer of skills is really beneficial.
Finding terrain like this is not easy locally, well, impossible actually. FoD on the Ski Run etc is about the best I can think of. But still not really comparable.
There are bucket loads of places in the FoD that have some savage tracks, but they arnt exactly on the map, so not quite so easy to find. Also not much further in the Cwmcarn/Risca valley there are trails everywhere that make Caersws look like the Swinley Blue.
Time to go exploring…
Really interesting to read this. Got friends with kids at the pointy end of national level swimming, my two aren't sporty as such but regional/national with their things, and it's great to support them find their level at what they do, wherever that may be
One minor thing we picked up on, the boy is riding his bars with a load sticking out the sides.
https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/6299370
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51462328441_20498d8909_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51462328441_20498d8909_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mpxTjR ]bars[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
We've also discussed it before but never changed anything, however this time, looking at his pics i have a spare set of bars in the box that are about the right length. He's running 780s currently and they're closer to 720mm (with the extra length of grips) so i think we'll give it a try for today/this week depending on when he can try them and ride.
He's up and about today, but only just... so maybe today won't be the plan lol.
I've got an hour after meetings with the bike today, cleaning sorting, checking stuff like pads, wheels, nuts and bolts etc... make sure it's all good for weekend.
You never know, i may even get to see my own bike again one day.
I see a lot of kids riding bars too wide. Locked elbows and angled wrists - not good for rough riding.
Some of the holding bars further in can be related to brake and shifter location, even having long grips.
Some of the holding bars further in can be related to brake and shifter location, even having long grips.
OF course, we'll be looking into brake and shifter positions a little more today too i agree.
We did a test with 2 sets of bars where he closed his eyes and grabbed the bars where it feels 'right'. Both sets of bars showed he's likely running them too wide currently.
👌
In terms of terrain there is loads around FOD and Cwmcarn. Not the marked trails so much.
FOD I’d think Corkscrew is more challenging than Ski Run - especially in the wet with all the roots. There is loads of off piste stuff spread all over FOD - it’s just finding it. Loads of steep rooty tech that I’m well out of my comfort zone on - but it’s good for development. Mallards is easy stuff to find - park by the lake. The stuff down to the lake is the more mellow stuff - off to the right is quite a bit steeper.
I think Staunton is the main area with sketchy stuff but I’ve not been there yet myself to explore. If you know anyone that knows the area that’s useful. There are some Bird owners people who live / know the area - might be worth posting something on the FB owners club and see if someone will show you the more difficult stuff.
Nearer the trail centre there are a couple of enduro runs - red and black that are sort of marked. Then if you follow that fire road from the bottom a bit further away from pedalaway there are some cheeky trails up to the right. They always seem to change so it’s just follow your nose and go down stuff and see what occurs.
For longer / steeper / rockier stuff then I’m told Risca (off the other side of Cwmcarn) is mental. Brace yourself for a lot of climbing though - big brutal climbs back up. Maybe you could use the uplift there somehow - you have the main DH run but maybe you could somehow link it to some off piste. I’m noticed on the Twrch trail there is some unmarked stuff off to the left off the start of airstream 2 - and then off to the left of the first part of the final descent. Looks proper steep.
Not in the same category as those 2 places but Nibley just outside of Bristol has steep tech rooty stuff - none of it is fast though really as all quite short.
And then BPW - don’t do the flow stuff - find the most tech / rocky stuff and session that.
cheers Joe. A lot of what we go looking for in the future will depend upon what we end up doing in terms of discipline, be that Enduro or DH. No point finding impossible descents if carrying speed is more that's required and vice versa of course. Until we get this next 3-4 weekends done, we don't actually know the answer to that question.
It was funny at one stage, me and his mates dad asked the boys. "Would we be able to get down it"
They laughed....actually laughed at us... "No, you'd only get down in an ambulance"
I don't doubt them for a second lol.
I think the FOD stuff in particular would be useful for enduro - getting used to gnarly roots and steeper chutes etc can only help.
The DH trail at Cwmcarn is probably useful if you go the DH root.
Edit - I guess what I’m trying to say is there are plenty of trails between those 2 places if you look for it.
Also, if you can find some other people to ride with it can re-calibrate your mindset as to where you are actually at. I feel like over the last few years I’ve massively improved both in technical skills and fitness - yet some of the lads I rode with are still so far ahead it’s untrue. Riding with people who are significantly better drags you along and improves you mostly. A mate and I walked up a couple of the trails at FOD a few weeks ago and talked through some lines - there was one corner someone posted on ski run a few weeks ago on the FOD Facebook page and by chance we came across it. When I got to it I was much faster with no hesitation than previous efforts. So on actual race weekends I’d suggest there’s a lot of benefit to walking the trail with your lad and working out different ways through things.
Part of his inward holding on the bars looks to me like because he’s needing to use 2 fingers on the lever. Maybe it’s a strength thing for a youngster. Worth checking that too.
Anyway, it’s his first full-on dh race, must be loads of positives to take from that, regardless if the result wasn’t up to expectations!
I think the FOD stuff in particular would be useful for enduro – getting used to gnarly roots and steeper chutes etc can only help.
Yeah we've ridden both on and off-piste areas at FoD a fair bit in the last few years. This weekends race is also at FoD
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/248372/MIJ-FOREST-OF-DEAN---FREEDOM-AT-LAST
But we don't have any information on whether it's off-piste, dedicated trail, at FoD itself, or slightly off-site... dunno. Waiting for a reply to an email on that one.
Along with sitting here working out where to demo/hire a DH bike lol.
Or buying something with longer travel...
Obviously it's all a bit excessive doing that... but you know me by now, i do like to go all in with my random ideas, there's no half measures 🙂
DH bikes are meant to be another level for DH racing - but if you can only have one bike for everything that’s going to make enduro / general mucking about not a lot of fun.
There are loads of enduro bikes out now with 170f / 160r travel and slack angles that’ll be an awesome all round tool. Especially if you go 29er (if he’s big enough for the bigger wheel etc) - my mate recently got a Slash 29er (2021 model) and he’s blindingly quick on the thing. The lines he can get away with are outrageous.
Yeah i think the 29er thing isn't an option yet... he's only 5'5 or so and whilst i see a 29er CAN fit someone that size, i'm not sure i want to throw such a radical difference into the discussion yet.
I do appreciate that the DH bike limits many many other things though, so i don't see us going down that route yet.. But would be nice if we could find one to hire/demo outside of a trail-center so we could actually use it for an event. But they seem to only have them at Revolution and BPW.... But i don't really want to jump in and buy one for very limited use. If we live in north wales, hmmm maybe.. but leafy west Berks, nah, i'm not seeing it. LOL.
But we don’t have any information on whether it’s off-piste, dedicated trail, at FoD itself, or slightly off-site… dunno. Waiting for a reply to an email on that one.
It will be on one (or a mash up of a few) of the old Mini Enduro/Mini DH trails over by Y2K. Events are contained to the cycle centre by Forestry. They are only allowed to use official, or tolerated/adopted old locals trails.
It’s not proper off piste, or where the spicy stuff is. If you want a taster for some, ask away - I am more than happy to show people some of the lesser ‘locals only’ trails, but you will have to pedal some punchy climbs.
I think we're going to go over on Saturday as they're taping it up for Sat to allow practice. One thing this weekend did teach me is how important practice is for people who don't know courses. Whilst his race runs were off the pace, his practice runs were a lot closer and he took 15s from morning to afternoon off his times. We'd wondered whether we were going to head over on Sat but this weekend cemented the idea that it's a good plan.
If you're about on Sat and fancy coming to give him some tips watching him, that'd be ace mate... or indeed just to ride with us and have a bit of fun too. I can't give him tips any more as i can't stay with him on the way down to watch and see, maybe you can do based upon some of your posts.
If the trail is open all day Saturday it’s well worth pushing up alongside it before riding it (obvs out the way of people riding down) to identify any tricky bits and workout a few lines to try through it. 100% will make him faster and he’ll enjoy it more not riding it blind.
Part of his inward holding on the bars looks to me like because he’s needing to use 2 fingers on the lever. Maybe it’s a strength thing for a youngster. Worth checking that too.
Yup, that braking needs fixed right away. DH and Enduro both need a good grip on the bars and 2-finger braking really diminishes that (and therefore control). He’ll need a bit of practice and the setup (in/out position and level reach) will likely need adjusted, but it is an absolute must
One thing this weekend did teach me is how important practice is for people who don’t know courses.
Not sure if I mentioned this before - “track walk” 😉
For the bike dilemma, if 2 bikes isn’t a goer. Then how about Enduro bike + a set of DH wheels and tyres?