[Closed] Team Sky Kit.

[i]I think people who just go straight to the top i.e the proverbial Colnago with Di2 without having turned a pedal are prats[/i]

What an odd attitude. Why does it bother you so much? You should concentrate more on yourself rather than what others are doing, maybe if that happens we'll see less of your whinging 'I'm not very good at racing' posts this season.

oldgit, I don't think you really realise it but you're very much the epitome of why so many road clubs died on their arses in the last 20 years and why so many of the older clubs are being ignored by all the wiggo-inspired newbies even now.

You often moan about the problems with road racing and the lack of support in the UK. Ever thought there might be some connection?

What an odd attitude. Why does it bother you so much? You should concentrate more on yourself rather than what others are doing, maybe if that happens we'll see less of your whinging 'I'm not very good at racing' posts this season.

This. It just seems pathetic that people feel others should have to 'earn' a nice bike.

How long before we are being forced to pay for the Tour of France and the rest by having to Subscribe to Sky sports, its coming mark my words

They're not gonna sell a one month sub though are they! Must admit I'd not be surprised, but I think it'd be a shame. I like the ITV coverage anyway.

TdF is free to watch in France...

They're not gonna sell a one month sub though are they!

afaik - they can and do.

Anyway, it'll always be on Eurosport 🙂
And cycling is one of those sports where I really enjoy the highlights.

As a cyclist you should be concentrating on the pleasure of riding your own bike and not the bitterness of seeing others ride theirs - whatever bike it is.

I'm so glad I'm not a 'proper cyclist'. It seems to be very stressful.

I believe in a bit of humbleness, an apprenticeship if you like.

I kind of get where Oldgit is coming from on this. In the motorbike world, you get older folk going out, passing their test and then buying the latest fastest bike to wobble around on. Not that it affects me in any way apart from the fact that if there's a sportsbike involved in an RTA, nine times out of ten it'll be a middle aged bloke who has only been riding a year or so.

In cycling circles, I went out on a club ride (in winter!) with a local club in Kingston. Without question I was on the least expensive bike there, literally every other bike was a De Rosa with carbon this and Di2 that. Now this alone doesn't bother me, but was does bother me is the fact that they had absolutely no road sense whatsoever. Riding three abreast, no clue about riding in a group, not stopping at red lights - just generally incapable of riding as you should on a club run, almost to the point where they think buying posh gear somehow lets them overlook the need to learn certain skills.

Additionally, ride the fourth cat race at Dunsfold on a friday and look at the value of the kit being ridden there. Then look at all the brakechecking/dropping wheels/inability to ride a bike that goes on. My point (and I think Oldgits to some extent) is that you need to put the time in to learn about riding on the road. Buying Rapha and lots of carbon portrays an image that you know what you're doing. Rapha themselves portray this image that most folks wearing their kit are time served cyclists who put the hours in - ironic as most don't have a clue.

The fact that Nalini make the kit for Rapha sponsored Sky team is a joke. A triumph of marketing in my eyes - fair enough Rapha are funding Team Sky just like QuickStep sponsor a team (I'm pretty certain Boonen doesn't have cheap laminate in his living room). But for a cycling clothing 'brander' (I'm not going to use the term manufacturer) to sponsor a team but their kit not be good enough to race in is a joke considering the image Rapha portray (and charge for).

This. It just seems pathetic that people feel others should have to 'earn' a nice bike.

Bit like say in racing you start of in carts, then get cars then something else
You dont just have pots of money and therefore go straight to a F1 car.

TBH you seem more annoyed at their view than they are about folk being over biked...can I start insulting you now I disagree with you ?

Pathetic, Jealous etc 🙄

TBH i dont actually care what bike folk ride but if you have an expensive bike - be it an Orange 5 for canal towpaths or a top of the range road bike for pootles then i will consider you overbiked and a tad foolish [ or wealthy enough to have really expensive toys that dont add any to your ability to do the "sport"].

I also love it when you're milling around the race afterwards and two blokes will be stood there chatting, one saying to the other that he NEEDS to get a lighter set of wheels because that's why he got dropped on the nth lap. When the race was probably won by someone on a bone stock middle of the range Giant.

No, what you NEED to do is get out and train a bit more....*

*I realise the irony in this post considering the bike I ride and the placings I get at races. I'm under no illusions that I'm over biked, I just like nice kit..

I can see where oldgit is coming from, I just think he phrased it quite badly. flange sums it up quite well ^^. There's an image and in cycling, it's very easy to buy into it. For relatively little money (compared to say, buying a top end car), you too can wear the pro kit, ride the pro bikes. Companies naturally play up to this - Rapha are far from the only culprit in that respect.

Look at any high-end "aspirational" brand - watches, clothing, cars - they all do it. In some instances it attracts the wealthy who have never turned a pedal (or driven a fast car/motorbike). As flange says, look at some of the local 4th Cat crits - riders on £6000 of kit who can't hold a straight line. Or motorcyclists coming off cos they've gone out and bought a 600bhp superbike with none of the "gentle introduction" that oldgit alludes to.

Rapha themselves are pretty blameless as far as I can see. They spotted a niche in the market and went for it. The money they make gets ploughed back into cycling - sponsorship of 2 teams and loads of events from grassroots CX to top end road, a presence at lots of events.

You may not like their products or their marketing but Rapha are a very positive force in UK cycling. And no-one is forcing you to buy their kit or drink their coffee.

I also love it when you're milling around the race afterwards and two blokes will be stood there chatting, one saying to the other that he NEEDS to get a lighter set of wheels because that's why he got dropped on the nth lap. When the race was probably won by someone on a bone stock middle of the range Giant.

I did a winter crit on my singlespeed road bike last week. That got some comments. 😉 Rainy, windy, cold, generally minging and there were people there on £2000 carbon deep section wheels... 😯

There has been some inaccuracy written in previous comments about who will be making the kit for the sky team next year. Nalini have always been involved with Rapha as one of their suppliers/fabricators and like just about every clothing manufacturer you can mention most of their wares is made in factories that fabricate for multiple "brands". Just because clothing is made in the same factory does not mean it is made of the same fabrics, assigned to the same level of machinist working to the same garment fabrication goal times, or given the same QA/QC procedures. This is how the modern manufacturing world works.

Sky/Rapha kit will come in 3 flavours - normal Rapha quality in smartwool at normal Rapha prices; "supporter" kit which will be of similar quality and price to every other replica kit on the market; and the stuff the actual racers will wear. The normal Rapha quality stuff was too heavy and warm for them so requested mostly mesh. With the exception of one rider in the team it also has to be custom made as they are too thin to wear off the peg sizes!

TBH i dont actually care what bike folk ride but if you have an expensive bike - be it an Orange 5 for canal towpaths or a top of the range road bike for pootles then i will consider you overbiked and a tad foolish [ or wealthy enough to have really expensive toys that dont add any to your ability to do the "sport"].

Thing is though, it's all relative innit. The guy on his £70 supermarket full suss probably thinks you are overbiked on your £400 hardtail. The guy riding an Orange 5 on a canal towpath - that might be his only bike - so actually he'll be getting mocked for not owning several different bikes perfectly suited to each occasion?

you are overbiked on your £400 hardtail

re towpath i meant buying an orange just for that- its not adding anything really

I ride them with my kids an do get looks now and again from proper mtbers when they see me on mine doing this i now take mty rigid SS so they know i am awesome

of course it is all relative and you could have another bike yourself but you do have nice brakes 😛

If you won the lottery, and went out to get a new bike, there's no way you're coming back with ultegra or xt or a mid range giant frame. And there's no point trying to kid yourself either.

there's no way you're coming back with ultegra or xt or a mid range giant frame

or in fact anything that's name wasn't Ferrari 430 Scuderia

IMHO Rapha do make some quality gear, but considering the rapha-condor-sharp team shirt was no different in materials/manufacture to any other team strip and was £140...how much do we reckon for the Rapha-Sky replica shirt????

I seem to have created a monster with a fairly innocent thread. 😆 Years ago when I played Golf it was the same thing then , My uncle a 18 handicapper would show me his latest Taylor Made r500 driver that cost him £250 then promptly smash the ball 150 yards. I remember him getting upset when I said It was a cracking club but wont turn him into Tiger Woods.
I bought a Giant Defy 2 after trudging about on an old non compact Kona and felt like I was riding a Colnago c59 , would I like 2k deep set rims and a full Di2 set up ?. Well obviously, can I justify or afford them No.
At the end of the day what does It matter if someone has the money to buy a nice 5k Pinnarello or Colnago gets kitted up and plods about doing small 40k loops at 15 mph , some people will always have more money than others and If they can afford a Colnago why buy a Boardman.

Fact is, as cycling gets more popular due to Wiggens et al there will be a bigger influx of new cyclists, some of which have a large amount of disposable income to spend on team kit/bikes/coffee. It's a good thing in so far as the usual 'more second hand kit' and bike companies doing well/cheaper better bikes model. But there will always be resistance from the old guard - those who were 'in it before it was popular'. If you're rich and have the cash why would you not buy a really nice bike? This I have no issue with, I think everyone would like a nice bike if they could afford it.

It's the whole clique atmosphere of cycling that annoys me. Cycling is terrible for it, that whole Velorules thing really boils my piss. You should have your stem slammed, you should do this, not do that. Your top should match your shorts which should match your bar tape - really? This whole coffee culture thing is ridiculous and I think that's what a lot of people who buy these top end bikes think their subscribing to. It doesn't take much effort now to buy a bike that's under the minimum UCI weight and a lot of people think they 'need' this in order to race/do well in cycling. I don't want to be part of a sport that looks down on those that don't stop for a poncy coffee every five minutes or have nice wool tops and a 4 grand fixie...

I'm not knocking Rapha for what they've done - as mentioned they've seen a niche and filled it very successfully. I even like the look of some of their stuff but personally I'd not wear it as I think it's overpriced for what it is. The Nalini thing smacks of Emperors new clothes to me - those that can buying £200 cycling tops because they think it puts them in the same league as Froome ect, when Froome and crew are riding around in proper gear. But you pays your money...

I think people who just go straight to the top i.e the proverbial Colnago with Di2 without having turned a pedal are prats. I believe in a bit of humbleness, an apprenticeship if you like

Can't see the point of replica kit myself either but I do accept it's a fairly common thing.

Bit like say in racing you start of in carts, then get cars then something else
You dont just have pots of money and therefore go straight to a F1 car.

Getting back to the topic, surely all replica team kit, no matter who its made by, provides a valuable public service?

As a bell-end indicator, its probably as effective as a private number plate on a car? Rapha are doing us all a favour 😉

I was much faster and did better at races when I had rubbish bikes. The reason being is that I had more time to train because I was working less. These days I have more disposable income but less time to train and all the carbon in the world isn't going to overlook the fact that I'm not as fit as I was. I'm sure I can't be alone in this situation - the bankers and doctors and minted folk who can afford the bikes probably can't afford the 3+ hours a day to train. So to them cycling is just a hobby to do when its a nice sunny afternoon. Not everyone wants to race or be the fastest.

Expensive pushbikes are no harder to ride nor more dangerous than cheap ones.

So given that it really isn't hurting you at all if someone wants to "waste" their money, what could you possibly have against it,

except jealousy/bitterness/some weird sense of superiority in the cycling "hierarchy".

No that would just be you lazily insulting those you disagree with 🙄

I do agree with the point about not getting top of the range gear until you can 'justify' it. I see kids coming in to the community centre where I work who have just started learning guitar, and their parents have bought them really nice Fender Strats or Gibson Les Pauls, when they can barely strum a chord.

Seems totally wrong to me but I try not to be too judgemental. I just think you have to accept that people's conception of what is 'basic' and what is 'top of the range' can vary wildly according to disposable income etc.

Have you read the comments above about folk pointing out when they are dangerous?

That's got nothing to do with how much they've spent on their bike though.

This does seem to be like a "He's got a nicer bike than me but I'm faster than him so it's not fair!" kind of thing.

What so I could not actually drive a F1 Car?

Without a good deal of practice and instruction, you'd be lucky to actually get it rolling 🙂

What so I could not actually drive a F1 Car? Are you sure. I reckon I could crash at the first corner like some of the best

The reasons given?

This does seem to be like a "He's got a nicer bike than me but I'm faster than him so it's not fair!" kind of thing.

As a bell-end indicator, its probably as effective as a private number plate on a car?

LOL. Our neighbours have matching number plates, effectively "b3llend1" and "b3llend2". I'm embarressed by it when we have visitors.

That's got nothing to do with how much they've spent on their bike though.

This does seem to be like a "He's got a nicer bike than me but I'm faster than him so it's not fair!" kind of thing.Does it?

Does it?
I just read folk interpreting it as such yet no one actually saying this

Just because clothing is made in the same factory does not mean it is [s]made of the same fabrics[/s], assigned to the same level of machinist working to the same garment fabrication goal times, or given the same QA/QC procedures. This is how the modern manufacturing world works.

OK there may be an trace of truth in there but how do the factories sell their services that way? "We'll do a half arsed job for base rates but you pay for pro service and we'll do our very bestest and won't cut corners, honest!"

Does it?

Yeah, it sort of does.

Giving reasons like "humbleness" is bollocks, you just don't want to admit (to other people, yourself, whoever) that you're annoyed someone has a better bike than you.

[quote=D0NK ]how does this work then? We'll let the teaboy sew up aldi tops but rapha get our CEO stitching their shorts?
We'll only cast a quick glance (with one eye closed) over the DHBs, rapha will get our full attention?
OK there may be an trace of truth in there but how do the factories sell their services that way? "We'll do a half arsed job for base rates but you pay for pro service and we'll do our very bestest and won't cut corners, honest!"
That's exactly how it works.

Thanks for the mind reading and ignoring the answers given

Stick to the maths 😉

TBH i dont actually care what bike folk ride but if you have an expensive bike - be it an Orange 5 for canal towpaths or a top of the range road bike for pootles then i will consider you overbiked and a tad foolish [ or wealthy enough to have really expensive toys that dont add any to your ability to do the "sport"].

Giving reasons like "humbleness" is bollocks, you just don't want to admit (to other people, yourself, whoever) that you're annoyed someone has a better bike than you.

I don't think anyone on here has said that or even hinted at it. Unless you're talking úber bikes (£10k +) I think anyone if they were so inclined could stretch to a pretty nice bike. Finance/cutting out luxuries and most people could, its just what you see as important. Buying a half decent motorbike (new) would cost you at least £5k and look how many of those are around.

I think the issue for some people here is folk having mega money kit and not being able to ride to a certain level. Personally I don't care what people ride as long as they don't knock me off on a club ride or race. Or act like a ****t because they've got a nice set of wheels...

That's exactly how it works.

This does seem to be like a "He's got a nicer bike than me but I'm faster than him so it's not fair!" kind of thing.

Guess that sort of thing keeps the classifieds going tho so shouldn't moan 😉

Like say a brand new SS CX bike 😉

they say that they dont do it 😉

Mate used to make bog roll in a massive factory

they did everyones and they ere all the same - iirc M & S did have a separate run but own brand to expensive stuff was all the same

Its not like you can have different machines to cut stuff or stitch it that almost do the job is it- perhaps use better material but that cost will be negligible.

I think they are saying that you should have reached a standard where you can use it andyou "earn" it by being good enough to justify it. What is so wrong with this - could you articulate without insulting those you disagree with? I have read your view now a few times. is there any chance you could explain it?

So, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that when you see someone on a nice bike, who can't ride to a standard that you believe the bike "deserves", you feel that they are not worthy of the bike?

or wealthy enough to have really expensive toys that dont add any to your ability to do the "sport"

I'm "wealthy" enough to be able to afford some black and gold grips for my mountain bike (they cost a tenner I think, superstar). They look awesome. They don't add anything to my ability to ride the bike, they work just the same as any old grip. Does that mean you resent me as well?

Like say a brand new SS CX bike

I was not saying what I thought hence I said they rather than me.

I'm "wealthy" enough to be able to afford some black and gold grips for my mountain bike (they cost a tenner I think, superstar). They look awesome. They don't add anything to my ability to ride the bike, they work just the same as any old grip. Does that mean you resent me as well?

Nah they are cheaper than mine 😉

Look at this way a mate of yours who does not cycle and has never really tried it wants to get into cycling - lets say MTB

do you
1. Advise him on a nice mid range priced Hardtail
2. Take him to Tesco- job done
3. Head off to Ibis and drop £5 k on an XTR bling thing

That is all I am saying.

I go 1 personally
if you want them to do 3 thats fine but dont insult me because I disagree and try and pretend it makes me jealous,pathetic or bitter.

I think they are saying that you should have reached a standard where you can use it andyou "earn" it by being good enough to justify it.

Is there an official table somewhere that gives the accepted range of skills/average speed/number of riding hours against bike value? Perhaps someone could produce some graphs?

As this is lets take up an extreme position and flog it to death can I just say

Where is TJ when you need him 😀

I assume that this approach should be adopted in all walks of life?

No point in going straight to the Balvenie Doublewood - the newcomer should be made to suffer a few years on Bells, then some Grouse and maybe some Glenfiddich first?

well I tried some cheap ass whisky and decided it tasted bloody awful, I've since sampled some expensive single malts and you know what, they still taste like piss.

I'm sure there's a lesson to be learned there 😉

I dont drink whiskey so i doubt I could tell expensive from crap tbh but if you want to pay i will accept the challenge 😉

Look at this way a mate of yours who does not cycle and has never really tried it wants to get into cycling - lets say MTB

do you
1. Advise him on a nice mid range priced Hardtail
2. Take him to Tesco- job done
3. Head off to Ibis and drop £5 k on an XTR bling thing

That is all I am saying.

I go 1 personally
if you want them to do 3 thats fine but dont insult me because I disagree and try and pretend it makes me jealous,pathetic or bitter.

That's an entirely different argument. We weren't really talking about complete beginners, we were talking about 4th cats and such - riders who have started racing, and sure, I'd advise him, but if he was rich as and went and bought himself a super bike I wouldn't think he's a prick, I'd just go "wohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh carbon wheels...." and "hey man, have you got ceramic bearings?".

try and pretend it makes me jealous,pathetic or bitter.

That's just how it comes across.

A 6k Colnago still tastes like piss too.

Realman the original comment which started this tangent off I think was

I think people who just go straight to the top i.e the proverbial Colnago with Di2 [b]without having turned a pedal[/b] are prats. I believe in a bit of humbleness, an apprenticeship if you like

grum 🙂

lol at druidh, thinking of situations that could apply...

'Sir wants a vindaloo? I'm sorry, you've not had a Korma yet.....'

Bloke: May I buy you a drink?
Pretty lady: Hell no, you've not bought that munter over there one yet!

So there's a limit to what a beginner can spend before you consider him a cock? What is that limit? Is it in any way related to what's in his bank account? What if he buys 2nd hand and gets a great deal on a DA equipped colnago for a fraction of the normal price? Is he still a cock?

Yes but now he is a cheap cock which is worse 😛

Why the need to keep arguing the point my MTB examples indicates the view being put forward

Its free choice obviously and at either extreme it breaks down but i am sure you can see the point being made

Its free choice obviously and at either extreme it breaks down but i am sure you can see the point being made

That if someone pays more money than what you deem to be acceptable you consider them a cock.

Yeah, I think I can see it. I don't think I can understand it.

You are not thick, why are you doing this?

Cock is you word repeated and not mine for example and you misrepresent my view yet again 🙄

Not sure why you cant get the point being made from what I have said and the examples given .
I cannot be bothered discussing what you, incorrectly, think i am saying and what you,incorrectly, think it means about jealous bitter me.

get a 6 k bike and go ride the canal towpaths its a wise bike purchase choice for that trail and a new user. Anyone who says different is pathetic, jealous and bitter

Happy now?

Ohh look another Rapha bashing thread 🙄

By law there ought to be one of these every month this year.. Mods?? 🙄

I think people who just go straight to the top i.e the proverbial Colnago with Di2 without having turned a pedal are prats. I believe in a bit of humbleness, an apprenticeship if you like

All I get from this is "I've ridden more than you, trained more than you, you are a beginner and as such don't deserve my respect"

Quite a lot of shite being spouted as per normal, and to be fair to oldgit he does rideout and knows a lot about thin wheels, and he's been grumpy for sometime now so perhaps he's having some kind of revaluation, dunno just comes across as this.

Rapha kit is the most comfortable kit I own and ride in, has been for a good number of years too. I like it for that. I like what they do with the films and marketing, but I choose to buy it based on my own choices.

wowsers.
I'd like to express my opinion on this thread, but I'm not sure I have enough experience of asshattery for my opinion to be recognised.

so why would the cheaper brands put up with that? Why don't they go to a manufacturer that does a proper job without being paid extra to do it right first time?

Cos they've deliberately aimed themselves at the cheaper end of the market! There will always be a market for cheap kit and it matters a lot less if it falls apart after a few months so they can afford to pay less attention to the materials and Quality Control.

£5 on some gloves at Aldi, you won't care if they get wrecked in <6 months. £120 on Rapha gloves and you'd be mighty pissed off if the stitching fell apart after a year. Same with any premium brand. If I buy a £10 Casio, I don't care if it stops working a year later but if I buy a £5000 Rolex, I want it to be working perfectly in 10 years time.

£5 on some gloves at Aldi, you won't care if they get wrecked in <6 months. £120 on Rapha gloves and you'd be mighty pissed off if the stitching fell apart after a year. Same with any premium brand. If I buy a £10 Casio, I don't care if it stops working a year later but if I buy a £5000 Rolex, I want it to be working perfectly in 10 years time.

This sums things up for me....i dont mind paying good money for stuff i will either appreciate or will last.....

....but if i havent tried stuff at the lower end of the market how will i know what is good?....do i just take the word of the salesman?....do i trust magazine review?....do i ask friends?....

....or do i pick something mid-range and see how i get on with that first?....this has always seemed the most sensible approach for me and if i want better/more expensive then i'm then happy to feel my own way up the product range so to speak....although in my experience the mid-priced stuff in whatever field we are discussing is often plenty good enough for somebody like me who is not really an expert in any field....would i be any better/quicker round my local loop on a theoretical 6k Colnago than i am on my actual £600 Spech?....not likely, so i dont bother spending the extra and instead take my money elsewhere where i will appreciate it.

crazy-legs that's not really what I was getting at, my point was why would aldi/whoever go to a manufacturer who said we'll do it cheap and dirty or expensive and well? Why not go to an alternative manufacturer who specialises in cheap stuff and can probably do cheap more reliably than a pro outfit intentionally doing a bad job.

I'm just having difficulty seeing "we can do a half arsed or professional work, depending on what you pay us" as a viable business statement.

and I guess we better not start talking about the accuracy of a £10 casio vs a £5k rolex 😉

6k colnago? Where? Mine cost at least 10k FFS

Why not go to an alternative manufacturer who specialises in cheap stuff and can probably do cheap more reliably than a pro outfit intentionally doing a bad job.

I'm just having difficulty seeing "we can do a half arsed or professional work, depending on what you pay us" as a viable business statement.

It's quite a bit more complex than that. But ultimately it all comes down to money.Someone mentioned a bog roll factory further back. Bog roll and garment manufacture are diametrically opposed in the manufacture industry - one is high set up cost and machinery intensive the other is highly labour intensive.

Machinists are not drones, some are vastly experienced and skilled whilst others are not or just starting. Like most folks in the life the more competent ones expect payment for the services commensurate with their ability. That costs money. For that you get someone who can work quickly and efficiently and is capable of more complex tasks repeated constantly whilst remaining in tolerance.

Some of the best design work is used to make average quality goods look great. Can you loose that raw edge without finishing; can you reduce that arm section to 3 panels rather than 8 and save 5 metres of stitching without loosing the fit or aesthetic; can you remove a dart without it hanging badly. Often you can buy your way out of issues by throwing more machining time at the product.

Some of the most expensive might have features of the manufacture process that you as a "rough and ready" consumer might not even discern - the edge that is double folded and piped; the fabric that has been cut on the grain line in such a way that is stretches just right but is a bit more wasteful; the pattern cutting process that ensures all panels for a garment come from a single bolt in case a small dye inconsistency between batches; a garment that uses a combination of natural and synthetic panels and attempts to colour match (very hard between different fabrics because of the different temperatures used) rather than fudging it with colour contrasting panels.

QA/QC is something that costs money - I think there is a belief amongst consumers that products are just right or wrong. The wider your tolerances the faster your work force can work. How much you care, will reflect how much you want the machinist to slow from their max and the slower they work the more expensive the unit cost becomes. The QA part of that equation is obviously most important bit where you attempt to design out as many cock ups as possible and that might be about making the machining simpler- not necessarily inferior.

It can be quite possible to have a medium sized factory unit specialise on a number of very different garment types and qualities quite happily and do neither badly. It's just a case of getting what you paid for.

crazy-legs that's not really what I was getting at, my point was why would aldi/whoever go to a manufacturer who said we'll do it cheap and dirty or expensive and well? Why not go to an alternative manufacturer who specialises in cheap stuff and can probably do cheap more reliably than a pro outfit intentionally doing a bad job.

They're not [b]intentionally[/b] doing a bad job.
You have different levels of service, that's all. Pay a company £x and they'll do a job to a certain minimum standard. Pay them £y where y>x and they'll do the same job to a higher standard.

Better materials, higher standard of workmanship, more time taken over it, more rigourous QC.
Buy a £100 suit, you'd expect it to be mass produced, cheap materials and a case of S/M/L/XL.
Buy a £1000 suit and you'd expect each part to be individually tailored to your requirements and the shop to spend considerably longer in fitting it to you.

Back to bikes, it's not uncommon for one manufacturer to be supplying several brands via various different production rows.

I dont have much of an opinion on that kit (although I doubt it took a long time to come up with) but **** me I found two consecutive posts by RealMan funny 😮

I like Rapha socks and my rain jacket is awesome - and has special pink signalling bits to attract the attention of young chaps on the train and tube. Hopefully this makes me a bad person in the eyes of the kind of miserable old sods who give roadies a bad name...

The fact that Nalini make the kit for Rapha sponsored Sky team is a joke. A triumph of marketing in my eyes - fair enough Rapha are funding Team Sky just like QuickStep sponsor a team (I'm pretty certain Boonen doesn't have cheap laminate in his living room). But for a cycling clothing 'brander' (I'm not going to use the term manufacturer) to sponsor a team but their kit not be good enough to race in is a joke considering the image Rapha portray (and charge for).

Bit of an odd statement considering there is no rapha factory or fabric mill and they tend to use the best that's available to them when picking manufacturers. (Nalini probably manufacture the Rapha team kit and the synthetic lightweight jerseys.)
What would change your mind? Simon Mottram getting the sewing machine out after having knitted his own pubic hair/merino wonder fabric?

As for a Joke? I know who is having the last laugh. 🙄

It's on the Rapha site now.

£140 for the normal ss jersey
http://www.rapha.cc/team-sky-pro-jersey

(and I thought the Adidas stuff was about double what it was worth)

[img] [/img]

Unsurprisingly, the Rapha site's gone down 🙂

There's talk of a £40 supporters jersey, but as the site's down I can't see it.

That shot makes it look better than the original publicity shots IMO. £140 for SS jersey though... you're alright!

For 2013 Yellow aren't importing the Dogma in Sky colours (more fool them I say), so the real fanbois won't be able to get the full look.

Bit of an odd statement considering there is no rapha factory or fabric mill and they tend to use the best that's available to them when picking manufacturers. (Nalini probably manufacture the Rapha team kit and the synthetic lightweight jerseys.)
What would change your mind? Simon Mottram getting the sewing machine out after having knitted his own pubic hair/merino wonder fabric?

I don't think its odd at all. A kit company that prides itself on it's image and fine craftsmanship sponsoring a team who will wear kit not provided by themselves. The point is that Rapha 'make' high end expensive race kit so you'd expect the team they sponsor to use it. I didn't know Rapha don't source their own materials/manufacturing, which just makes them even more pointless IN MY OPINION..

Similar to any bike company who sponsor teams then have a batch of frames made by another builder with their name on it. I'm not talking about Merida/Giant who make frames for loads of people, but companies like Neil Pryde who use re branded Cervelos.

For 2013 Yellow aren't importing the Dogma in Sky colours (more fool them I say), so the real fanbois won't be able to get the full look

Seriously? That's up there with KTM refusing to let Ewan McGregor have a bike for Long Way Round...

There's a replica jersey for £75 as well for those that don't want to pay for the Pro version.
http://www.rapha.cc/team-sky-replica-short-sleeve-jersey
Having actually bought some of there kit I've been more than pleased with it. I've had my classic jersey for nearly 3 years now and it looks and fits virtually the same as the day that I bought it. I can't say that for other tops I've had which have all faded or suffered from pulls or holes. I'm not sure if I would buy a replica team kit but don't mind paying for Rapha stuff as in my experience it fits and lasts better for me.

It's a rubbish colour scheme from a road safety viewpoint.

I have quite a few bits of rapha kit but I would never buy repli a kit. I know in design terms rapha were limited to using blue and black but the design isn't exactly ground breaking.

The challenge in cycling, it doesn't matter whether you traverse mountains or roll on the road, is to look not quite so bad as the next rider. To actually look good would be up there with inter-galactic space travel in terms of difficulty.

And I've seen a lot worse than that Sky kit.

Seriously? That's up there with KTM refusing to let Ewan McGregor have a bike for Long Way Round...

I was surprised. The only Dogma complete bikes are fitted with Super Record EPS, various wheels in myriad colours, none of which is a Team Sky replica. Not sure if it's available frame only in Sky colours, but the ubiquitous Di2, Dura Ace wheel equipped model is no more.

Not sure if it's available frame only in Sky colours, but the ubiquitous Di2, Dura Ace wheel equipped model is no more

Christ there's going to be a riot in Richmond Park if that's the case. All they need to do now is stop BC skin suits being made available in XXL and we'll have all out war.

I still don't think I've ever disliked a road bike as much as I dislike that Dogma...

I would have one (with Shimano), although to be honest I look at that alongside (say) the Madone 7-series and it looks a bit of a turkey! Being heavier than most company's aero frames, whilst less aero than many 'lightweight' frames isn't a stunning set of credentials.

I do like the look of them though I must say. Although the Prince was nicer.

Edit: not even in Sky colours in the Pinarello website, although they do make more groupset options. Shame, it was a nice looking colour scheme. Very odd as well.

I watched 'The Road Uphill' the other night (which sounds like a gay porno - its not) and it has to be said, the Schleck brothers Madones look awesome. Other than that I'd have Boonens Spec

This is rank
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this is nice
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and this is stunning
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Agreed, they look awesome, but so they should - they're £9000, not exactly 'the cheap option'.

That said, the 5-series [i]looks [/i]the same and costs a whole chunk less.