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If WvA wins and gets a chance of the polkadot, does that mean the JumboVisma would get all of the jerseys?
I think Leffeboy, Pog retains the white jersey?
No, sorry, I don't think that played any part in Vingo's thought process, I was just suggesting that it was an unintended consequence.
Also sensible perhaps not to risk it all on a tricky descent and temporarily halt the battle.
does Jonas not qualify for white as well or does yellow not get that
Jonas is too old, he's 26 this year.
I really hope Pog really goes for it on this climb otherwise he's effectively thrown the towel in.
WvA attacks. Bloody hell. Wout van Beast might be a better name
It's like he's never heard of power to weight ratio, checking the stats he is 15kg (78 to 63) heavier than Martinez.. love to see his power files!
given the right parkour and a team he's got a GT in him surely.
"No rider has ever won a Hors Categorie climb stage in the green jersey" from Cillian Kelly
G suffering again now, finally dropped from the Pog/Ving group.
Sepp Kuss taking chunks out of WvA's lead.
Wonder what Wout had for brekkie 😉
Seriously if say for example Martinez is climbing at 6W/kg - 368W which he probably is, to match that Wout is doing 468W FFS, maybe more.
And no Mr. Millar, it's not a shame for Geschke to not win the polka dot jersey, if you don't collect enough points 'cos you can't that tough mate not a shame.
When was the last time Green, White and Yellow were together on a mountain stage, racing for the stage win?!
@steve_b77 it's mental isn't it, i know people gone on about WvA but his has been the ride of the Tour for me, like last time when he got a sprint, a TT and a mountain stage..
Wow.
Game, set and Match
wowzer, pog blown. Stage has to be Wouts
Pog gapped!!
Pog gone.
What a beast WvA is.
Got to let WvA have it if he can get there keeping the gap to Pog.
Edit: WvA gone. Yellow and Polka dot to Vin.
WvA is human. Who knew
And now WvA sits on Pog's wheel to outsprint him and deny him more bonus seconds...
Maybe not 😀
Nope i think Wva has actually popped...clearly gave that everything
Wow, Pogacar is suddenly hemorrhaging time.
Bike change for G at exactly the wrong time...
Looks like Vingegaard has done to Pogacar as Pagacar did to Roglic in 2020
Yellow, White and Green in that order on a mountain stage. Wow!
lovely bromance there
Poor Geschke. He was absolutely heartbroken at losing Polka Dot. 🙁
A stage for the ages brilliantly summing up the whole race. Would love WvA to have picked up the Polka Dot too as I think Geschke has been pretty average when we have got to the big mountains and it would sum up what a mad three weeks it has been.
I'm afraid I have decided I don't believe WVA's performances.
Wout Van Aert is incredible. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him riding for GC next year. I was convinced he was going to be cooked after the first week.
I’m afraid I have decided I don’t believe WVA’s performances.
I'm not going to go quite that far, but I have thought WTF on more than one occasion.
I’m afraid I have decided I don’t believe WVA’s performances.
There is definitely something rather reminiscent of another era about his riding.
And this tour looking like it will beat all records as the fastest ever.......
I might have had tha opinion had he come from no where.
But wva has been special his whole career.
But wva has been special his whole career.
So has MvDP who at least has the good grace to bit shit sometimes!!
What a stunning stage. The last couple of weeks of racing have been some of the best I've seen. I have to believe they're not all sat around the dinner tables gulping down fresh monkey glands like gels.
Yet another stage that is a total classic before they've even got to the second ad break in the highlights.
I spent a week crawling my way up those climbs. At 6mph, how they managed to do 15mph after a 60 mile run sprint to get to the base of the Aubisque i have no idea
The Hautcam is just a slog fest with a nice selection of grippy tarmac.
For fun they could habe used the tormalet as its only 20mins further up the road.
How, in todays power era a handful of riders can be significantly better than the rest of the best is puzzling
So has MvDP who at least has the good grace to bit shit sometimes!!
It does look like that if you only watch the tour de France how ever
MVdP has an ongoing fairly seriously painful back injury he's had it most of the season it's pulled him backwards in a few events.
Yet another stage that is a total classic before they’ve even got to the second ad break in the highlights.
It does make me wonder if the teams shared the same hotel, they'd be attacking each other to be first to the breakfast buffet, attacking each other to get the bus out of the car park first......
It's also been injury and illness / covid affected but when teams get down to bare bones and don't have the weight of numbers to nullify each other so much how much better the man v man racing gets. Smaller teams?
It does look like that if you only watch the tour de France how ever
Why's that? I watched the Giro, MVdP went nuts with loads of crazy attacks, but he was successful sometimes, others were a disaster, great fun.
Wout meanwhile in Le Tour is sprinting, tt ing, solo breaking and demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains. Doesn't add up for me. Maybe I am just jaded from watching bike racing for decades.
Because his back injury has been a recurring issue throughout the classics.
Wout meanwhile in Le Tour is sprinting, tt ing, solo breaking and demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains.
A bit like pog then
demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains
The only “proven climber” who has been anywhere near the front is Quintana who is old and constantly flatters to deceive. The days of specialist climbers of the Millar, Van Impe, Herrera mould are long gone, (since sky came in) it’s now the big engine and then get a low body weight model, the can climb well enough and manage the flat stages too (G being another example)
A bit like pog then
No, nothing like POG, when did you see him last bang elbows with pure sprinters or smash off the front in Paris Roubaix. Sure he has a great kick on uphill small group sprints but he isn't doing anything like Wout. Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win? Strada Bianca, that's often been a climbers race, Bernal was 3rd to MVdP a year or two back and he is a pure climber.
The only “proven climber” who has been anywhere near the front is Quintana
Oh come on! That's a massive reach, huge, gigantic..is Quintana the only proven climber in LeTour? This Pog guy is handy, Yates, I seem to recal and odd decent win for ThomasMatinezhas won the Dauphine, that tends to be hilly
I take climber, in the tour, to be the classic climber physique; small, wiry and usually not much cop (relatively speaking) on the flat. All those you’ve mentioned fall into the big engine low body weight model I suggested, with the possible exception of Martinez.
Yates has not had many big wins, certainly not big mountain stages of GTs but has a fair few top tens in one day races and classics. So WVA is just one of the best of a fairly similar set ( still prefer MVdP though)
Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win?
He’s been on or near the podium at Flanders, MSR, LBL (twice with one win) and a number of semi-classics, a lot of pros would be happy with that for a career and he’s only been racing a short time so far.
I am mildly surprised at how well WVA has done, but having watched him dominate cyclocross along with MVDP for the last however many years, I can happily believe it’s good training not a more old-fashioned preparation.
The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me
So WVA is just one of the best of a fairly similar set
Seriously?
Proven climbers are proven climbers, that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too
Maybe its just the multi-discipline backgrounds of these guys like WvA and MvdP? Is it possible that the ability/aerobic capability of the guys who ride cyclocross and MTB is having a bigger influence? It's a genuine question as I am no athlete or expert.
I am mildly surprised at how well WVA has done, but having watched him dominate cyclocross along with MVDP for the last however many years, I can happily believe it’s good training not a more old-fashioned preparation.
The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me
I wish I thought like you, like I said MVdP regularly bites off more than he can chew and comes unstuck and you don't see him dropping Martinez in the Pyranees, after being on the attack for two weeks straight.
Vingagoagoago and Pog are just being GC racers, POG the punchier rider but they are not pushing 80kg and capable of winning full bunch sprints
that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too
Yes very odd and fairly infrequent, other than the title of Great French hope for the tour, to be alternated with Pinot (even though Allaphillipe is better than the pair of them).
No one can deny that they are proven climbers though. Although, maybe you could
A_A - as someone said above, MVDP has a back issue that last year or the year before people were saying would end his career, before that he was head and shoulders above everyone in cx, no bad days.
Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win?
Pogacar has been at or near the top since he came onto the WordTour scene. Youngest ever rider to win a WorldTour stage race (when he won Tour of California in 2019).
Olympic medallist (he finished behind WvA in the sprint for silver / bronze).
He's won loads.
Just caught up with stage 18, awesome. I think Vingegaard has shown that he has the legs and it wasn't just JV Vs Pog, and for all the criticism leveled against the quality of UAE they did double down as their numbers dwindled. All being equal Vingegaard has had the measure of Pog.
that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too
Yes very odd and fairly infrequent
Given the quality of the opposition, I think this palamares is reasonable quality. Most pro cyclists would dream of any one result from this list
Top results
3x stage Tour de France ('17, '16, '15)
2nd GC Tour de France ('16)
KOM Tour de France ('19)
GC Tour of the Alps ('22)
3rd GC Tour de France ('17)
2nd World Championships - Road Race ('18)
stage La Vuelta ciclista a España ('21)
2nd GC Criterium du Dauphiné ('16)
2x 6th GC Tour de France ('18, '14)
GC Tour de l'Ain ('13)
2nd Strade Bianche ('18)
stage Critérium du Dauphiné ('15)
that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too
Yes he has a good palmares but going back to the original inaccurate statement that he’s some sort of proven winner how many wins in that list? He’s got two stage wins a few years back and KoM 2019 as his highlights, very good but he’s not a consistent very top level contender.
before that he was head and shoulders above everyone in cx
No he wasn't, MvDP was often beat by Wout, especially flatter tracks with more running. Like I said you don't see MVdP eating up proven climbers in the high mountains or beating pure sprinters in bunch sprints or winning grand tour TT's
Pogacar has been at or near the top since he came onto the WordTour scene. Youngest ever rider to win a WorldTour stage race (when he won Tour of California in 2019).
Olympic medallist (he finished behind WvA in the sprint for silver / bronze).
He’s won loads.
I was talking in the context of the classics he rode this season, he is obviously outrageously good but his abilities are nowhere near as wide as Wouts
He’s got two stage wins a few years back and KoM 2019 as his highlights, very good but he’s not a consistent very top level contender.
There are LOADS of riders like that in WT level. Hugo Houle who won Stage 16 has won almost nothing - a few top 10's in stage races that no-one has ever heard of, he's been Canadian National Champion a couple of times about 10 years ago and that's it.
Many of the domestiques, especially in lower-ranked teams, are the same.
Women's cycling isn't much different either - it's been the same dozen or so riders winning most of the big stuff for the last decade.
Speaking of climbers, is it just me who thinks the KoM competition needs a shake up? I don't understand why so few points are on offer generally (compared to the sprint comp). It's become a defacto GC race. Geschke tried all tour to win it, but the big guns can steal the show and win it as an after thought.
If I were in charge... I'd think about increasing points available on all climbs to provide more opportunities to win points. OR maybe change the nature of the comp by using some of the on-the-fly metrics currently available, like using each riders' personal time from top to bottom to award points (fastest getting max etc). Something like this might give more weight to climbs earlier in stages. OR maybe make points available at more than one point on the climb and/or descent?
I'm rambling, but I can't be alone in thinking it's become a lesser comp compared to the green jersey.
Yes he has a good palmares but going back to the original inaccurate statement that he’s some sort of proven winner how many wins in that list?
I said proven climber, no one can deny Bardet is not a proven climber other than you.
Anyway I'll leave the discussion of Wouts performances there as many are not as sceptical as me which is I suppose a good thing!
I can’t be alone in thinking it’s become a lesser comp compared to the green jersey.
It's kind of become a lesser competition by being a harder competition to win. White jersey could do with a shake up to, if it wasn't for Vingagoagoago POG would win everything but green.
Speaking of climbers, is it just me who thinks the KoM competition needs a shake up? I don’t understand why so few points are on offer generally (compared to the sprint comp). It’s become a defacto GC race. Geschke tried all tour to win it, but the big guns can steal the show and win it as an after thought.
Richard Virenque won the Polka Dot for years and years by targeting the early smaller climbs, mopping up all the points and then having enough of a buffer that he could ignore the big ones, invariably won by the GC riders.
Yeah, the whole thing needs a shake up. Same with White.
They've played around with Green a few times as well altering points available etc, mostly to subtly "aid" the chances of a favoured rider or conversely, to make it more difficult for the same person to win it multiple times cos that gets boring. WvA has been largely unchallenged throughout - in fact he used his position of dominance to "win" most intermediate sprints without any competition. The one time someone chipped off the front and beat him, he got really arsey about it. The ideal scenario for Green is that it comes down to the final sprint on the Champs-Elysees.
Deleted cba’ed
I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it's just the accent 😕
Is he a mountain biker too?
I guess it depends if it's the 90s /early 2000s definition of climber....
Or the modern era of cycling where it's no longer enough to earn your place on the team as a specialist.
I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it’s just the accent
It's sad isn't it that the sport has been so tainted.
I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it’s just the accent
That's not surprising. His full name - Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen (born 10 December 1996). 😀
The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me
I was saying exactly this a little earlier, and adding it to the fact that this looks like the fastest tour ever, according to the pundits yesterday. At least it's been entertaining though, not like the Armstrong bore-fests.
and adding it to the fact that this looks like the fastest tour ever, according to the pundits yesterday.
Grand Tours have changed in the way they're raced though. Previously, you used to have lots of long transition type stages then a bunch sprint so the peloton would let a break go out to 10+ minutes, sit there and twiddle along looking at the scenery, then race the last 60km once the TV helicopters appeared.
Now, the whole thing is live, stages are much more varied, shorter (so less time to get the break established, less time to pull it back, less time to create or close big time gaps etc) so the racing is much more attacking.
Don't underestimate the effect that aero has had either. Once teams realised they couldn't just fuel up on EPO to win everything, the whole "marginal gains" thing became much more important. Look at clothing and bikes now compared to the Armstrong era. Hidden cables, powermeters, aero tubing, skinsuits... Even a mid-range road bike now is far stiffer, lighter and faster than the best TdF winning bike from 15 years ago.
Grand Tours have changed in the way they’re raced though.......Even a mid-range road bike now is far stiffer, lighter and faster than the best TdF winning bike from 15 years ago..
All true. But I won't be able to find this thread to say I told you so when the revelations start to appear, so I'll say I told you so now, in readiness. That's a joke btw, if it's not clear. I'm thoroughly enjoying the racing in the last few years. IF they are doping, then I think they might be good drugs for the sport. 😀
Earlier on in the tour they showed some footage of the tour when Jan Ullrich won and the difference in things like how loose and baggy the shirts were was quite painful to see.
No he wasn’t, MvDP was often beat by Wout, especially flatter tracks with more running. Like I said you don’t see MVdP eating up proven climbers in the high mountains or beating pure sprinters in bunch sprints or winning grand tour TT’s
I think the argument has moved on, but I started racing and watching CX about 3 or 4 years ago, and to be honest the races where WvA beat MvdP were very much the exception rather than the rule. I actually got a bit fed up watching it as often the races would turn in to MvdP basically solo time trialling off the front. More recently WvA and MvdP have almost been avoiding each other in CX and neither seems to have really done a full season, plus MvdP has been injured, so it's really hard to spot any consistent pattern in (CX) performances.
However didn't MvdP recently ride 'proven climbers' (and WvA) off his wheel on Strade Bianche? Which was won by Pog the following year? And didn't MvdP come 3rd in a Giro TT AND win a bunch sprint (and outsprint WvA in the RvV?).
Whatever is going on, WvA certainly isn't alone, and in the present company he might just be the best of a new breed of extremely capable all-rounders?
I think the thing I'm not sure about is that when everyone was juiced to the gills in the 90s, early 00s, they'd be motoring up mountains. Then, post-Lance, measures to make the sport cleaner seemed to be succeeding but the trade-off, some commentators were saying, is that the riders couldn't perform such feats daily and therefore there'd be more 'rest' stages, and that seemed to be somewhat true. The break would go early, everyone would kick back for a chat and it'd be a bit of snoozefest for spectators. But that seemed like a decent deal. Now, however, pretty much every stage has been an old-fashioned tear-up. I know training and aero has improved but the riders must be feeling it in the legs!?
Let's not forget that the new gen don't really have an off season ..... Think back to an offseason Ulrich or pantani in the off-season would put on what would seem unmanagable weight and then crash diet it off in the spring.
MVdP and wva and most of the nu school(pidcock et al) don't do that and just carry their form into the cx season.
GCN Tech video on the subject here:
There are some interesting comparisons back to the doping era noting that Pantani and Riis have far quicker times up Alpe d'Huez and Hautacam.
However didn’t MvdP recently ride ‘proven climbers’ (and WvA) off his wheel on Strade Bianche? Which was won by Pog the following year? And didn’t MvdP come 3rd in a Giro TT AND win a bunch sprint (and outsprint WvA in the RvV?).
Strada Bianche is hardly the Pyranees, it's exactly MVdP territory.
Coming third in a giro TT is quite different from winning Tour TT's. He won an uphill sprint from a peleton reduced of pure sprinters in the Giro, he wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell on the Champs Elyse in fact I have not seen him even bother sprinting in a full bunch sprit in recent years. Finally anyone can outsprint anyone 2 up after Flanders. Pidcock outsprinted Wout in a two up sprint last year, it happens after long tough races. What Wout has done, in all the different ways he has done it is truly, mind blowingly, out of this world amazing. MVdP has done amazing stuff for sure but he doesn't win bunch sprints AND out climb proven climbers in the big mountains.