If you look at the stark figure, of the time gap between the two, then it looks ‘unbelievable’.
But, it’s probably more nuanced than that. Pog didn’t look that smooth, efficient, or comfortable throughout, whereas Vingegaard looked totally focused and zoned in. His pedalling looked really efficient, technically, through the corners and down hill it looked perfect. So, if he’s really targeted that stage, and it all gets executed perfectly, you could easily see his time being 20-30 seconds better than perhaps expected of a ‘good’ time for him. Likewise, if Pog was feeling a bit ‘off’, not quite match-fit, and was trying to ‘measure’ his effort a bit more, with more of an eye to today’s, and subsequent stages, you could easily see his time being 20-30 seconds slower than you might expect. Cumulatively, that adds up to potentially 1 minute of the time gap, and so the remaining 20-30 seconds is just the ‘natural’ gap between them over such a stage?
But that completely ignores every other rider out there... including lots of very very fast ones who seemed to try really hard.
the gap between 1st and 3rd, was the same as the gap between 3rd and 50th…
i mean, that really...
it's not just the differene between those two though, is it? On it's own that might be ok, but the margin from Tadej to WvA is almost as big as the margin from Jonas to Tadej - and WvA is the Belgian national TT champ, who had in turn beaten the French national champ by a MUCH smaller margin
Being a TT Champion has little bearing on that stage. Far too hilly for pure TT specialists - you put Ganna on a course like that he'd be nowhere, you put him on a flat power circuit, he'd put similar JV/TP sized gaps into everyone else.
That was a course for climbers who could TT. The Yates twins were famously rather poor at TTing (they've improved dramatically in recent years) but they were up there due to their climbing ability. Jai Hindley is another case in point, a climber who can TT.
That was a course for climbers who could TT. The Yates twins were famously rather poor at TTing (they’ve improved dramatically in recent years) but they were up there due to their climbing ability. Jai Hindley is another case in point, a climber who can TT.
So what you're saying is... The course really suited all the brilliant climbers... but Vingo still put a fortnight into them all 😀
Until there is a positive test, this is all just speculation. A healthy scepticism is understandable given cycling’s history, but I think you might as well assume what you are watching is clean until proven guilty because otherwise why bother watching?
What I want to know is what the hell was the winner drinking after he crossed the finish line?
It looked like some kind of putrid thing....maybe to flush out the drugs in his system ? 😂
People seem to quickly forget it is amazing Pog is even competing for Yellow after his crash before Le Tour. Must still be flippin' painful (or good use of TUE's)
The other factor is it doesn't matter how good a climber or TT'er you are, it matters how good you are after all those hard days previously. Gets in to dodgy territory again, but there's a reason the GC guys excelled on this stage.
Yes the top two are suspicious but if you treat it more like the time difference to the Yates brothers, then it is probably as expected. Van Aert is more surprising not being such a pure climber and absolutely emptying himself most days.
A lot has been made about time differences/ distribution of times between the top two and the rest of the field but that seems to be the expected distribution among almost all stages not ending in a bunch finish. Even DH and Enduro has similar time distributions. One or two relatively way ahead of the field (exceptional talent/ stars align/ good doctor), tight field (they are all pros after all), then outliers at the end that had problems.
Watched the highlights last night
Crikey.
Side by side analysis of JOnas vs Tadej at the same points on the course
https://twitter.com/Domestique___/status/1681584084802306049
Genuinely informative, the differences are obvious when you watch it like this
Vingegaard looked totally focused and zoned in. His pedalling looked really efficient,
did it? one thing that stuck me was how weird his legs were at points, imagine a legs version of froomes elbows
example from 4m 30s here
His knees only went randomly funny very briefly, almost as if he was shaking some lactic acid out in the same way as you sometimes stand up just briefly for a change. He didn't pedal like that for any distance
That side by side video puts my mind at ease a bit - if Vingegaard is taking out almost a second on every downhill corner, that soon adds up. And, given it's really a climbing stage and those two would smoke everyone else on a mountain stage, it's not as suspicious as I first feared.
but I think you might as well assume what you are watching is clean until proven guilty because otherwise why bother watching?
I understand the sentiment, I watch all sport assuming that the top performers are sailing as close to being banned as they can, without stepping over the line that would see them thrown out. Personally I watch sport for the spectacle really. The performance of the individual athletes; regardless of whether they're supplemented or not, is so far beyond what I'm capable of anyway it makes no difference. Take the last DH race at Val Di Sole as a for instance, the top women averaged over 50kph on their runs, that's just so far beyond us normal humans they may as well be on drugs.
aberdeenlune
Free Member
Watched it last night and concluded something is not right. When a skinny little guy is putting out more power than WVA on the flatter bits of the stage. That performance was a bit too good to be true. In the past all the too good performances on the tour have been proved to be artificially enhanced. I hope I’m wrong but I think not.
18Kg in weight difference between Van Art and Vingegaard
When your 'favourite' doesn't win, it doesn't mean the others are on 'something'. Personally I don't give a shit what they're on, it's a spectator sport. And if you think the 'odd one or two' are on something and the others aren't, think again. This isn't the 90's. Vingegaard was by far the better rider on the day.
I'd like to see some side by side time splits on shorter parts of the course and the downhills in particular. As has been noted a few seconds here and there but also smoother = less effort in then getting back up to speed for cruising = more beans to give on the climb. Same on the bike swap, you can say it's 15s or whatever on the change itself but slow down, then speed up again, including the effort expended. I was astonished just comparing time over segments of Ride London that i ride anyway, just not having to slow at junctions and then speed up again put an extra couple of kph on my average speed over them.
That said - it still looks a bit funny, even after trying to find rationale. But I suspect some of that comes from watching the tour for the last 30 years where the reason behind these types of performances was PED's and so I'll always be sensitised now.
How many question Usain Bolt?
People are becoming obsessed with doping - even more so than the actual cycling.
The likes of 'Doping Weekly' with few articles on actual cycling🤣
Its easier to look at it as a graph
Pogacar took ~2.5 seconds/km out of Wout on La Planche. Today he took ~3.4 seconds/km out of him, on a course that in theory should be better for Wout. Okay maybe Wout hasn’t been climbing quite as well this year, but he still beat all the other GC riders so he must have been going well - so still a crazy performance from Pogacar.
Vingegaard took ~7.8 seconds/km out of Wout.
How many question Usain Bolt?
In fairness
Bolt consistently wins by the same margins, it isn't regularly nip and tuck and then one day when it all matters he wins by miles.
Bolt's times are typically 1-2% faster (eg: London Olympics, gap to 2nd and third was 1.2% and 1.7%. Vingegaard beat 2nd by 5% and 3rd (WvA, a top class TTer) by nearly 9%
Still not saying it was cheating, but it raises an eyebrow for sure.
In fairness too - I said the same about Froome when he blew all away that time but then you look at how much prep went into being ready for that. There may be (I hope there is) a rational reason, including as i said above being that much better across the whole course, not just the p/w bits.
Many, many people questioned Bolt at the time and there was a lot of suspicion around the Jamaican sprinters in general. Some of which turned out to be well founded as they ended up with bans.
I'm far happier that people are questioning this rather than just blindly accepting, doping is still very much "a thing" especially in athletics where earlier this year it felt like there was almost one elite level Kenyan distance runner caught per week. It helps keep the sport accountable and ensures that anti-doping efforts retain momentum.
I said the same about Froome when he blew all away that time but then you look at how much prep went into being ready for that
takes time to collect all that salbutamol, for sure
Did you believe Pogacar was? Some of his rides are similarly unbelievable.
Forget about Pogacar, the surprise is the near 3 minutes on every one else in 22km.
This isn't a standard, stand-alone TT tho is it.
There are lots of different reasons for different riders going harder/easier on this event.
Some of the KOM riders going easy on the flat so they can bury themselves on the climb to gain some KOM points.
Lots of people with no skin in the GC game are saving themselves to be able to survive stage 17 which is huge. People are tired after 2+ weeks of what is acknowledged as a tough tour. And WvA is a big unit to get himself up that last climb, so not surprising he got beaten. And he's probably saving a bit for 17 to support JV
And we know that TP and JV are the two riders that needed to push hard in the TT. Haven't seen any of the power data speculation from earlier in the tour, but guessing that JV has been pacing himself on the climbs this tour know that he would put it to bed on the TT.
Jumbo attacking.... well... Jumbo ???
Jumbo Visma took over the Rabobank team, who were known for doping….. hmmmm
Using that argument surely Astana would be winning everything.
No-one seemed to raise questions following stage 6 where Pog finished 2:39 ahead of contenders Rodriguez and Hindley.
Lots of people with no skin in the GC game are saving themselves to be able to survive stage 17
Lots of opportunity still for top 10 finishes so unlikely they all agreed to soft pedal and take the day off. Adam Yates was 3:12 behind, looked destroyed on crossing the line and he’s on the 3rd step now.
No-one seemed to raise questions following stage 6 where Pog finished 2:39 ahead of contenders Rodriguez and Hindley.
Except it was over 140km and 4000m of climbing. People being buried on a mountain stage not unusual and JV was 24s behind.
L,equipe being captain obvious
glad to see this happening, taking everything into consideration I'm inclined to believe it was just an epic ride by JV. And to be honest the alternative is depressing. So that's the only way I can continue to enjoy watching professional cycling.
And to be honest the alternative is depressing. So that’s the only way I can continue to enjoy watching professional cycling.
But you could argue these days with the advent of power metres and the absolute understanding of what an athlete can deliver over a given distance that quite frankly stage racing has become dull anyhow.
Hopefully it just shows there is still part of the equation that cannot be controlled and that is confidence. Confidence has a massive impact positively or negatively in any sport and cannot be explained or quantified by science. Maybe it was JV's confidence and self belief that got him where he did yesterday, where as the other GC's were always chasing.
Do not underestimate the significance of the extra blood tests. These are atypical so they are prospectively looking for blood doping via biological passport comparisons with pre tour. Now I’d they had taken a sample on Sunday too to mark the natural degradation over two weeks of stage racing.
Anyone compared JV and Tom Pidcock’s descending?
The most significant tour stage since Floyd flew away.
@Tired did you mean descending in this TT?
I haven't seen any footage suggesting that Pidcock is that good on a TT bike. From all of the footage I've seen the best descender yesterday was Pello Bilbao, he was buttery smooth.
Yes. We know he’s a demon on a normal bike. Wonder how he got on in a TT position. I’m a useless wimp when the Aeros goes downhill. And I’ve ridden “The Welsh Ski Slope” R25 course!
On the balance of probabilities, I'd say Usain Bolt was doping. You look at his times and they are consistent with others who have been found to have doped which to me says more than anything else. In addition, you have the obvious Lance Armstrong comparisons. He is a highly marketable character who the governing body has a vested interest in protecting. Not only that, he has a different technique compared to his competitors due to his being taller and apparently this 'explains' why he is so dominant. Remember how Armstrong's high cadence which meant that he was able to dissipate lactic acid more easily? Sure, it also meant he was able to use EPO more effectively.
I used to work in motorsport and honestly, I think the dominance of JV and Team Emirates (and up until a few years ago Team Sky) has more to do with budget than doping.
I used to work in one-make championships where you would assume it's simply a case of the best driver wins. This is not true. To be in with a chance of winning you had to spend between 3 and 4 times as much as teams who were making up the numbers.
It's difficult to point to exactly where this money makes such a huge difference because where is makes the difference is in thousands of tiny details that you only have the time to seek out if you have a budget that dwarfs most of your competitors.
I think Team Sky brought this motorsport mentality of defeating your enemy through massively outspending them to cycling which is why they were so dominant and I think it's JV who have now picked up that standard.
Of course, cycling isn't motorsport, mostly because you can't blame your engine 'having a bad day' in motor racing. Everything can be measured.
There is without a doubt doping going on in the peleton. However, I'd be surprised if it was the super teams with the super budgets who were doing it. I'd say it's more likely to be the teams who are competitive but don't have the budgets to hoover up all those thousands of tiny increments that are available to the super teams.
In some ways it's sad but I think the days where a charismatic individual can come along and dupe (almost) the whole cycling world are over. We're into the days where how much money you can bring to the fight is all that matters.
Whether that's a good or bad thing, I don't know.
