@masterdabber it is now......
(sorry i just had to)
Also, didnt see 1'38 coming, thought Jonas was stronger but only by a little but he's just destroyed Pojacar
Jonas doesn't even look that knackered! Amazing ride.
So..
In 22 km he’s put in nearly two min to pog, who himself is miles up on the rest of the field…
..🤔
2,51 over van aert!
Ooh, Adam Yates is up to 3rd overall! Great work! 🙂
US Postal all again 😉 it's to good to be true he didn't even look tired
Last mountain TT for a while, I think.
Crazy stuff!!!
I don't think Pete K is coping well with the heat, he looks shiny
The Clinic has gone into meltdown! The watts/kg will be ridiculous (about 7.5), but when you are only 59 kg and need 450 Watts, it doesn't sound quite so mad.
They seem to be a little exorcised on that link you posted TiReD
The Clinic is always "interesting" 😉
Well done Adam Yates. Hope you can stay on the podium till Paris.
He looks like he’s just been out with the local touring club for a cake run
it’s to good to be true he didn’t even look tired
At least Wout looked like he'd put in a shift 😀
<p style="text-align: left;">Over 5% faster than his nearest rival in a sport of marginal gains...</p>
The Clinic has gone into meltdown!
Wow that link is bonkers.
Entertaining day for a time trial (I may have nodded off at one point).
Listening to the commentary the woman on the commentary team (van dik?) is second only in number of Time trail wins to Tony Martin! Impressive stat especially as she said there wasn't that many races in the women's calendar.
What the hell just happened there? Pog destroyed the field, then Vin took him apart. Machines. Absolute machines.
Over 5% faster than his nearest rival in a sport of marginal gains…
you'd thought that kind of thing threw an exception on the "biological passport". Anyway the race for yellow is now over.
you’d thought that kind of thing threw an exception on the “biological passport
did I see 7.5 watts for 30 min quoted above. He’s either superhuman, or juiced to the gills. Let’s hope it’s the former
The Clinic has gone into meltdown! The watts/kg will be ridiculous (about 7.5), but when you are only 59 kg and need 450 Watts, it doesn’t sound quite so mad
What's with all the wingdings? Is it s secret code?
9mins down to the 3rd place now. That's insane
winston
Full MemberHe looks like he’s just been out with the local touring club for a cake run
It really did, absolutely mental performance
Vingegaard sprinting like it was a 4k pursuit at the start. Couldn't believe that he didn't slow down on the climb...
not that you can take much from it, as I've not watched it, he (vin) finished 105th and was 6m 35s down of Rog at the 2020 Vuelta ITT (33km, 536m climbing)
he didn’t even look tired
He looks like he’s just been out with the local touring club for a cake run
Jonas doesn’t even look that knackered!
You guys must have watched something different from me because in the one I watched he looked busted at the line.
I think that whatever the rights/wrongs.... truth/untruth and general speculation of today's ride, it will bring a lot of incredulity regarding pro cycling.
Nearly 10% faster that everyone except 2nd place is beyond comprehension. It’s cycling equivalent of 9s dead 100m sprint.
Ha it has been years since I've visited 'the clinic'. I assume that they've neither mellowed, nor gained any actual scientific qualifications?
It's hard not to be a sceptic when you see performances such as today mind.
Shades of Roglic and Thomas at the Giro?
IIRC the splits were different, G was still in the game until the gradient ramped up.
Vingegaard was faster than everyone on every aspect of the route today, by a huge margin. And I Think that JumboVisma knew he was going to do it from the very beginning of his run.
I’ve not watched it, he (vin) finished 105th and was 6m 35s down of Rog at the 2020 Vuelta ITT (33km, 536m climbing
He had a different role in the team back then to be fair.
Wonder when it'll dawn on uae that changing bikes was a major tactical error.
And I Think that JumboVisma knew he was going to do it from the very beginning of his run.
I'd assumed that this was something they discussed from before the tour even started
It’s hard not to be a sceptic when you see performances such as today mind.
I don't think so - that's a stage he'd clearly looked at very closely, the DS said they'd extensively recce'd it in April and they were obviously using feedback from WvA, Sepp Kuss and others. I suspect that was always a targeted stage, whether he had yellow or not - that was the absolute "bank it all on red" stage where he could go all out without needing to respond to Pogacar's violent accelerations (which he can't really do) and without any other uncontrollable factors like how a team-mate is feeling.
Pogacar didn't seem to go into it with the same fluidity, he looked more nervous right from the startline.
Not sure why people are talking like it's all over - gaps like that have been overturned in the past, sometimes in a single stage. One bad day and he could be right back to square one. All he needs to do now is defend though, everyone else is so far back they're not really a concern so there's a chance the last few days could be more about the lower-down GC battle while JV simply follows TP everywhere he goes.
Be interesting to see the interviews in the highlights programme.
You can recce it all you want, ride it 30 times, but you can't just magically find that sort of gap to everyone. Everyone who'd actually beaten you in TTs before. Everyone who'd the best of the best, made to look average
You can recce it all you want, ride it 30 times, but you can’t just magically find that sort of gap to everyone. Everyone who’d actually beaten you in TTs before.
A man training coming into his prime is very different from the average person on here training to not be on a less tragic curve downwards when it comes to comparisons to previous performances
The interviews - now out on you tube - validate crazy-legs which I'd side with. Vin himself didnt think the margin would be that big, and as above they've planned that to mitigate a Poj lead and just went for it anyway. In addition, Poj says he didnt feel right from halfway, he did look a bit stressed and tired.
So we have one rider with perfect prep feeling good and another less than perfect prep not feeling so good. But Poj says it isn't over yet, UAE have a plan for the next two days.
I'm now off for my own Jonas inspired 30s interval session 😀
But he didn't just beat Pog.
Wout van Art - "I'm first among humans today"
You can recce it all you want, ride it 30 times, but you can’t just magically find that sort of gap to everyone
exactly. Forget the pog, He’s pretty much gone 10% quicker than the guy in 3rd. Back in the dark old days those types of performances were questioned, and for good reason
will be interesting to see how they get on tomorrow
Yates to go very long and see what happens?
will be interesting to see how they get on tomorrow
Pogacar went over and congratulated him in the warm down earlier
When you see how strong WvA is generally, he should be able smash a time out in a course like that, which he did, but vin was nearly 3 MINUTES faster.....
I don't usually engage with claims of fould play in cycling but I can say that I saw a small boy who looked EXACTLY like Jonas Vignegaard in a science museum near Stavanger today.
Make of that what you will.
Jonas 'Armstrong' Vingegaard.
Pog tore everyone a new one, then Vingegaard ripped Pog up for a$$ paper, Vin beat the best of the best and not just marginally.
3 minutes faster than a proven brilliant time triallist WvA.
I cant believe Jonas is clean now.......
Jumbo Visma took over the Rabobank team, who were known for doping..... hmmmm
Jonas ‘Armstrong’ Vingegaard.
Lets not get carried away here. For a start there isn't any evidence to suggest Vingegaard is a c***.
I cant believe Jonas is clean now…
Did you believe Pogacar was? Some of his rides are similarly unbelievable.
Sadly i think both Jonas and Pog are clearly on another level to everyone else, it is hard not to take the view that it isn't natural.
Those time gaps were nuts
I wish they’d release his power data which would perhaps provide some reassurance to the doubters
in fairness his descending was absolutely insane, like he was on rails, which would have made up a chunk of time as well
Jumbo Visma took over the Rabobank team, who were known for doping….. hmmmm
On 25 July 2007, Rasmussen won stage 16 of the 2007 Tour de France. He had led the general classification (overall lead) since... However, hours after his win, Rabobank abruptly fired him and removed him from the race.
has a very familiar ring to it doesn't it :/
Neutral observer with the GC podium 24/7 for the whole 3 weeks. Only way. You go for a piss, I watch. Never happen but its the only way to 100% know.
It was remarkable but in the context of the rest of the tour not that out there. He has been protected the whole time and not really put in huge efforts, there were plenty of times when you felt he had more in the tank and he didn’t go for it. I think they had long targeted this stage.
There has to be a bit of an allowance for outstanding performances, what's the point in watching otherwise?
I long ago gave up on this pointless speculation about every good performance and just take it at face value.
Of course, evidence may come to light in the future but until then, just enjoy the spectacle.
He has been protected the whole time and not really put in huge efforts
nonsense.... he rode most the Col du Tourmalet on the front towing Pog up.. 7 watts/k for 26 minutes or something he also did some thing similar the day before.
I don't think being protected means the top 2 fighting out a number of stages in the mountains on their own having blown out their team mates
though they are huge efforts, cos breaking the alltime tdf record was just taking it easy :/
Interesting choice of TT route, favouring climbers. The footage made a point of showing Kung turn himself inside out to no effect.
Sorry was being sarcastic, no way could anyone assume either of the top 2 have been protected.
In the world of some random cyclist "I'm just sorry you don't believe". I also believe that pog used those words deliberately a couple of years ago to stick 2 fingers up at all of us
Watched the TT again and what also stands out is the quality of JVs ride. Technically it is superb, he is clearly maintaining huge speed and momentum in the corners at some risk.
also read somewhere that his Vo2 max is something like 97.. clearly he didn't get that measured using the Garmin app.
Is there actually a plausible mechanism these days to get the kind of short term/overnight gain they used to get from blood doping? I've always assumed the biological passport would put a stop to anything like that.
Doesn't mean they're all clean, given the history of the sport you'd be brave to rule out anyone being (carefully, micro)dosed to the gills, but if that's the case then it's been the case for the whole tour. So the relative performances today can't really be explained by doping and you're back to the usual sporting stuff. Maybe it's a question of how much you think it's built on a foundation of pharmaceutical assistance.
Is there actually a plausible mechanism these days to get the kind of short term/overnight gain they used to get from blood doping?
Couple of ibuprofen and an early night.
"Couple of ibuprofen and an early night"
I tried that but didn't get the promised 7w per Kg it said on the box...
i'm unsure but his descending was indeed insane. I was watching from behind my hands at various points. He was fully committed and beautiful to watch
His legs have an ungainly pedalling style. Probably costs him a few watts in aero gainz..
maybe I’m just bitter as I’m a pog fan and was hoping for a shoot out tomorrow.
I tried that but didn’t get the promised 7w per Kg it said on the box…
I can confirm through extensive testing that red wine and late nights can get you to 3.5.....
maybe I’m just bitter as I’m a pog fan and was hoping for a shoot out tomorrow
There could well still be a shoot out.
Pog still looks better on a bike so he's still my fav. Vingagoago was railing those corners TBF but he still rides like a bag of spanners compared to Pog.
Neutral observer with the GC podium 24/7 for the whole 3 weeks. Only way. You go for a piss, I watch. Never happen but its the only way to 100% know.
Which makes me kind of wonder why someone hasn't done this yet. Maybe a slightly lesser rider/team as a way of forcing the hand of others.
Jumbo Visma took over the Rabobank team, who were known for doping….. hmmmm
The doping itself was no longer really the preserve of the teams after the team-based affairs - much too easy a target to go after for the vamps. It became all about recommendations and 'individual' decisions and turning a blind eye.
I so want Vingegaard and Pogacar to be clean. But that time difference? Over that field? And Van Aert? My eyebrows are slightly north of where they usually reside.
When I looked at the forum home page and saw 115 replies before I watched the highlights i suspected something "interesting" had happened.
My eyebrows are also raised...
Mad day. Defies comment really
however:
You shouldn’t get a running shove up the road for a voluntary bike change on a TT…
Posted 5 hours ago
Agreed, and faking a problem would need too much judgment. Only answer really is no push-offs in a TT (or else you have to change to same type of bike you start on)
For the record all stage winners and the yellow jersey are tested daily. All riders gave a biological blood passport sample at the start of the race. Blood sampling during the trial is very infrequent. All TT bikes are x-rayed for a motor. And one presumes back up bikes too.
An interesting stat is that taking the ratio of 1-2 place time difference to 1-10 gives a ratio of 0.47. That’s unexceptional based on other tour TTs, but this is a short climbing TT. And the absolute differences are huge!
the gap between 1st and 3rd, was the same as the gap between 3rd and 50th........
Watched it last night and concluded something is not right. When a skinny little guy is putting out more power than WVA on the flatter bits of the stage. That performance was a bit too good to be true. In the past all the too good performances on the tour have been proved to be artificially enhanced. I hope I’m wrong but I think not.
Watched the TT again and what also stands out is the quality of JVs ride. Technically it is superb, he is clearly maintaining huge speed and momentum in the corners at some risk.
+1
Healthy cynicism is always needed but that was cool to watch and clearly carrying a lot more speed everywhere through technique as well as power. In some places positioning himself in rather weird positions to keep the bike weighted right and also keep hard pedalling going simultaneously which was cool
possible to gain a second or more on some of those corners if you risk it? (Pog smooth but visibly conservative from what I could see). Lots of corners. Plus bike change. Still a huge power ride but not sure it's as much of a fitness h2h as is being implied
Remco and Rog have put huge although admittedly lesser gaps into a strong field on time trials that suited them particularly well this year
I'm.erring towards the side of legitimate as well. Technically, he was superb & the position, the lines through the corners, that was spot on. He'd obviously ridden that dozens of times.
Don't forget as well that 15" of that time gap was down to Pogacar changing bikes.
For better or worse, the organisers found a course that suited the top 2. Gaps lower down can be at least partly explained by some riders not committing everything to it for various reasons.
I think JV committed everything to this one stage. That was it, one roll of the dice, bet the house on that, he knows he can control everything about it.
I think the biological passport and the sheer amount of testing he'll have had all Tour would make it difficult to be juiced to the gills. We're not at the old 50% haemocrit level any more (which was basically an open invite to load up on EPO to 49.9%!).
We already know both of them are way above everyone else so it's not a surprise to see them as the top 2. The gap is larger than expected but TP didn't look comfortable all through his ride.
In the post race interview JV said he thought his power meter was broken, he felt he was holding back in places but was still getting high readings.
Tricky one. Pog looked uncomfortable throughout, but perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given how much time he was taking out of WvA. And the fact that Vingo beat Pog shouldn't surprise us given he has given the impression in recent days of being capable of more than just man marking Pog. Looks like Pog's lack of match practice because of the injury layoff has cumulatively caught up with him, but that margin does leave an element of disbelief.
If you look at the stark figure, of the time gap between the two, then it looks 'unbelievable'.
But, it's probably more nuanced than that. Pog didn't look that smooth, efficient, or comfortable throughout, whereas Vingegaard looked totally focused and zoned in. His pedalling looked really efficient, technically, through the corners and down hill it looked perfect. So, if he's really targeted that stage, and it all gets executed perfectly, you could easily see his time being 20-30 seconds better than perhaps expected of a 'good' time for him. Likewise, if Pog was feeling a bit 'off', not quite match-fit, and was trying to 'measure' his effort a bit more, with more of an eye to today's, and subsequent stages, you could easily see his time being 20-30 seconds slower than you might expect. Cumulatively, that adds up to potentially 1 minute of the time gap, and so the remaining 20-30 seconds is just the 'natural' gap between them over such a stage?
Jumbo seem to feel that Pogacar underdelivered. I think they were expecting similar to what happened with Roglic and they know what Pogacar is capable of hence preparing so thoroughly for the TT.
If that was pog on a bad day, then his performance is similarly superhuman to ving.
Sorry the time gaps are insane
