[Closed] Tall me about DH casing tyres on bikes that need to climb

Not got any experience of inserts but sounds like we do similar riding and I've been managing with DH tyres for years. Probably does make it slightly harder going uphill but I can't say I particularly notice anymore. Being somewhat behind the times I still mostly use tubes and run like 35-40psi in the rear. This mostly stops pinch flats (when I do get them there's usually a dent in the rim too, I guess inserts might help) and keeps the drag down, but then on the other hand I could get a lot more grip at a lower pressure. I'd say it's worth it, but for me climbing is usually just the tedious bit before the descent, so I don't mind putting up with them uphill to get a better ride going down.

Just bite the bullet and put the heavier tyres on. I run WTB Tough casings all year round, yes it's more weight but like you, I've found you make the fitness gains in no time, and then you're also hassle free.

DH / DD / SG / Tough casings maybe with an insert in the rear (I run a Nukeproof ARD in the rear) pretty much guarantees hassle free riding and no ride time lost to flats 👍

Before messing around witch even more kit - you are running a decent pressure for your weight?

“Before messing around witch even more kit – you are running a decent pressure for your weight?”

+1

Also, how much of your rear travel do you use on most rides?

Used to run DH casing rear tyre with a thick tube a few years back (~5 years ago) on my XC bike. Was pretty standard with the people I rode with - all fairly 'aggressive' (ish) peak district rocky smash smash type riding. At the time I was riding pretty regularly, and didn't have any issue with the weight or drag. Much preferred not having punctures. However even then, the sidewalls would get worn out eventually and the tread worn out, all you were really doing was stopping pinch flats.

Nowadays my riding has more loamy / muddy twiddling in the woods type riding which definitely trashes tyres way less - a double down seems fine (probably get away with an Exo). I've tried inserts and I found these were more about stopping pinches, and didn't help with sidewalls getting knackered from rocks etc.

Sounds like you ride a fair bit and have already tried all the options (inserts, double down casing etc) so next time you need a new tyre, i'd say try a DH casing and see how you go. If you don't like it the tyre will be knackered soon enough and you can try something else.

I ride a 150r-170f bike (AM9), weight 90kg and am a relatively (emphasis on the “relatively”…) aggressive rider. Most of my riding can be described as winch-and-plummet, generally with 500-800m elevation gains. Once every 2 months I do a shuttle day, and 2 times a month or so I have a longer 30/40km, 900-1200m gain trail ride.

That sounds exactly how I use my Rocket, it also suffered with destroying normal rear tyres on a semi-regular basis and the rear rim was the worse for wear until I irreparably dented it. I have found the sweet spot is Maxxis EXO tyres with a Rimpact in the rear. Takes a bit of time experimenting with tyre pressures to find the sweetspot, now I have bags of grip and the Rimpact acts as a damper when I get a big hit. I tried a full DoubleDown tyre before that and it was hard to find a tyre pressure that consistently gave good grip but also stopped the rim hitting the ground regularly, I also suffered with burping and deformation unless I sacrificed grip by putting the pressures up. The Rimpact stops this happening down to silly low pressures so my vote would be beefy trail tyres with an insert then play with tyre pressures. You may also have to tweak your shock settings too, I had to speed up my low speed rebound by a few clicks and put a smaller spacer in the aircan as the tyre was now absorbing so much more of the chatter!

How are you killing tyres?
-Ripping beads
-Slashing sidewalls
-Slashing tread area
-Peeling knobs off

What pressures are you running?

Do you have a tendency to lock the rear wheel?

Do you pick up over rocks/roots or smash through them?

DH casing tyres typically have a softer compound, which IMO is what accounts for the drag. I dont tend to notice the different in weight, as I have a maxxgrip and exo minion both in exo and the maxxgrip rolls slower.
There are dual compound dh tyres, but I find you end up lacking traction, so skidding the rear wheel over things casuses cuts and damage to the tyre.

Thanks for all the feedback.
I'll try my best to answer to everyone.

How much rear travel am I using? - I believe my rear suspension is fairly dialled, it generally uses 80-90% of travel and then the last bit on the big hits as it's supposed to. Mind that my tyre issue persisted through different bikes and rear shocks

What tyre pressures? - running from 26psi on the wet to 28-29psi on the dry. Most damage occurs with the higher pressures, likely due to the higher speeds and harder dry/rocky terrain

How am I killing my tyres? - mostly sidewall and thread slashes, next would be snakebites then sometimes holes

Do have a tendency to lock the rear wheel? - not really, I don't think so, except on very slow, steep tech sections

Do I pick up over rocks/roots or smash through them? - hard question to answer, I think a bit of both depending on the mood

@reluctantjumper , thanks for the suggestion, but I used to go through Exo tyres every 2 months with holes and slashes, no matter what pressure I was running.

I realize I'm asking for the impossible, ultimate reliability but also climbing well. But in reality I just want to ride without the constant though "will I have to spend £50 today?" while still being able to climb properly, even if with a small penalty

Sounds like DH casing is worth a try for you, worst case you can have them there for uplift days and big hit days, then put on the others.

Weathers changing soon anyway, maybe worth looking at either a full DH, or maybe something like the super gravity range from schwalbe, i've just slapped on the SG magic marys, weight penalty, slower rolling, but through the coming few months they'll save me a lot of face in the ground time and never had one go on me yet, if i did i'd probably be doing the same as you and looking full DH casing.

Maybe try those new Schwalbes that have got a chunk heavier but hopefully a lot more durable?

Those new Schwalbes do look interesting. It seems everyone is using a casing above, trail/AM with DDs, enduro racers with DH tyres, DH racers on ebike tyres, etc, so it seems logical for them to bump up the protection level and just sell the tyres for their actual real world use.

Also quite curious about the Michelin DH22, any experiences around here?

Im same size as you and have put a few holes in exos in peaks/ lakes, double downs seem fine for me on rocks, local stuff is all dirt and roots so generally use exo but have warped a few but this might just be maxxis qc.
DH compounds literally suck, Schwalbe used to do a BikePark version, strong casing tyres with longer wearing / harder / cheaper compounds, they might be worth looking for but can be slippery in the wet.

I’m 90kg and ride in the peaks.

I run Specalized grid tyres. I guess they are the equivalent to maxxis eco. If I’m away for uplifts I run the dh versions the black diamonds.

I’ve done long rides with the dh versions and while they are heavier, they technical stuff climb brilliantly due to the extra grip. I don’t particularly notice the weight as the terrain has been harder than what I’d ride normally.

Why not give dh tyres a go? As you said your fitness will compensate for the extra weight.

I your tyres will just feel normal after a while, whatever you run.

You could try thinking about it another way. How about wheels designed to flex slightly to stop the problem you are having.

The Zipp 3Zero Moto wheels look interesting. They have flex built in to help with rock strikes.

I'd imagine a Maxxis DH tyre without an insert is around the same sort of weight of a Maxxis Exo with an an insert, so it probably won't make that much difference in weight, but the compound will probs. make it feel draggier, TBH my riding stats sounds similar to yours, and I don't think I'd want to make it harder for myself. In reality it'd probably add just a few seconds onto your climbs, but there's no doubt it would feel like harder work...

FWIW I've worn out a Michelin Wild Enduro rear in just a couple of months as well, and I'm 15kgs lighter than you, it's just not a robust tyre, so I wouldn't necessarily jump to any conclusions based on the performance of that tyre alone. But looking at your history of tyre wear, it might be time to accept that giving the riding you do, and the weight you are, your tyres are going to take a hammering. I think I'd be putting the most robust one on that I could find.

Go DH tyres or go home (with a puncture)

I use DH rear, DD front. Also winch and plummet or bike park. I don't really see the problem 🙂

Perhaps give the WTB tough casing tyres a shot, I have been pretty impressed with them, and you can get the judge for the back in a fast rolling rubber.

I have been riding a Verdict Light/high grip front and judge tough/high grip rear for abit and like them alot.

I have recently been trying the Kenda Hellkat tyres but they don't offer a tougher casing (AEC or AGC) in the faster rolling rubber, I think I will be putting the WTB's back on.

I'm assuming DH tyres are heavier as they have more durable sidewalls - so they are stiffer and less prone to punctures on the sidewalls and rim impacts?

If so, I guess the only real difference will be if you feel the extra weight as you are riding up the climbs. The bike not feel quite so 'sprightly' but I suspect you will get used to the slight change in how the bike rides quite quickly.

What width tyres? I moved to 2.6s and increased punctures and cuts massively. Back on 2.4s now and at the same time went up a step in carcasses. Early days but so far so good. I theorise (but I can't put any science to it except that the weight seems very similar between sizes) that the bigger volume tyres are weaker like-for-like.

I’m not convinced that heavier casings make bikes roll significantly slower - it’s softer compounds that suck out rolling speed. And the problem with too many tough tyres is that they only come in the stickier compounds.

WTB Tough Fast is one of the exceptions! Also Specialized Black Diamond casings are tough and the default compound isn’t very sticky.

tyres wear out when used alot - they are a consumable item.

DH tyres will last longer but you`ll get a grip tradeoff when the patterns wear and the casing is still good so you keep running it.

I`m 85kg ride middling hard and am on DH casings for rears. i dont like tyre squirm.

the only other thing to try before DH casings is 5psi more in the tyre!

I'm running Michelin Wild Enduros - and they're still looking great after a month of hard riding in the Alps... I'm only 70kg though.

DH tyres could be your answer. But maybe focus on line choice and going over stuff (rather than bettering through it) too?

Guess what, one more ride, one more slash on the rear... Go figure.
The front one is still hanging for it's life, except for the missing knobs.

Two more questions.
- are DH tyres tighter on the beads Vs the equivalent DD (or whatever) version? I currently have some burps even with Rimpacts, wonder if DH casings without inserts would fare better

- does Maxxis have 29er DH casings with the Maxxterra compound?

2 words:

****. that.

I'm a winch and plummet kinda guy too but DH casings are bloody heavy, I was running a Bling Bling and HR Semi Slick (yes, utterly ancient) on my hardtail over lockdown and it reminded me how far things have come. And that was in the mythical 60a Maxxpro compound so not draggy like ST's.

Granted I'm about 25kg lighter than you but you will feel it. DH casings are good for gravity assistance only.

Saw a Vittoria Mazza Enduro casing tyre the other day in Highland Bikes - surprised by how stiff and burly the sidewall was - much stiffer than a DD Maxxis - maybe worth a try as they come in a fair chunk lighter than DH tyres I think?

+1 on consider a few more psi. Eldest_oab has destroyed another rear wheel and tyre. He arrived in the Alps running trendily low and grippy tyre pressures - only to put 5 dents and a crack in his rim in a week, with some damage to Magic Mary Supergravity. That's with insert.
He upped tyre pressure and wopped a tube in - and did a further 5 weeks with no real issues and commented his tyre was less damaged.

I think we've got a lot of tyres that are only about maximum grip and speed - they are race tyres. We shouldn't then be surprised that they only last a race of two equivalent.

dh tyre beads are much tighter in my experience. (Maxxis n specialized)

i dont notice the drag too much - although i probably would notice if i went to a lighter tyre now.

i run DHF`s so they roll quite good anyway. i imagine a 2.6 DH Muddy mary would be like an anchor behind you.

i`ve got some cut wetscreams and i defo notice those bad boys but they do work amazing in the local swamp trails.

Can I hijack v slightly,

would a DH Maxx Grip DHF Minion run well at rear in 2.5"

on a 140mm/150mm steel modern geo Hardtail?

as Squirm from the 2.4" rear DHR EXO is bugging the absolute shite outta me.

thanks guys

Magic Mary Bike Park tyres for OP are a poss good shout well at least for front they are.

they are totally awe inspiring !

Did a big shuttle day yesterday, some of the guys (high level enduro racers) were running on DH DHR2s front and back. Not only they spoke wonders about those, they let me had a go on an access climb. Honestly, it didn't feel that different from the Wild Enduros, so I'll likely give DH casings a go next. Worst case scenario I get some extra fitness sessions until they wear out.

Thanks for all the great feedback

Back in the day I've run super tacky dual ply tyres.

Utterly reliable, if you manage to pinch flat them you're a massive clumsy oaf or a massively fast shredder, or a bit of both.

Really the bad side is riding along the flat, or slight inclines/descents where you feel them sapping the power. On a steep climb there's a tiny penalty from the weight but the rolling isn't that noticeable.

I'm sure modern versions roll better - I run inserts when I need them these days on lighter sidewall tyres, and get the same protection for pinches but I don't encounter sharp rocks frequently enough for sidewall thickness itself to be an issue/I'm happy to run that risk.

Years ago my favourite rear tyres were Maxxis DH casing in 60a single compound. They were heavy but not draggy. They don't make them any more.

Controversial suggestion perhaps, but does the problem lie more with your rims than your tyres, in the case of the pinch flats?

Over the years, any time a bike came with rims on that had quite squared off edges to the rims, where the tyre sits against them, I'd have pinch flats All.The.Time on tubeless and I don't weigh anywhere near as much as you. I now try to make sure that the rims on my bike have a sensible chamfer so that when the tyre fully deforms it's hitting something with a slightly curved edge instead of a full-on 90 degree sharp-when-struck-with-force edge. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, that has helped, I have found. I am riding a variety of trails but the overall theme is rocks and more rocks.

Lately I've got Rimpact too, the "Pro" Version with the dual density foam. Very happy with them, it's enabled me to lower my tyre pressures without worrying about pinch flatting or damaging my rims. I don't often rip or tear my tyres, but pinch flats were a not-infrequent and annoying occurrence.

Pinch flats make up for a minority of my issues. Most of my trouble comes from slashes

Been looking at the Continental Kaiser Apex DH casing 29x2.4. These are surprisingly light at 1300g or so and made in EU.
Anyone ever tried these front and back?

I use a Hans Dampf Super Gravity Addix Soft in 2.35 on a 29er for a rear. Weighs 1150g or so and comes with Snakeskin or something to reduce slashes. Works for me in FoD, so very different terrain and I also still use tubes and get away with around 23psi (if you believe my pump). On that basis I sound like a hugely different rider to you(!), but still might be worth a pop. £40 from one of the German sites. It was way more difficult to get on the rim than the Magic Mary on the front as the sidewall was so much more rigid. One caveat, it's a very drifty tyre.

Continental Kaiser Apex DH casing 29×2.4

We have Kaiser and Baron, in Projekt 27.5x2.6.

My son loves them.

The couple of times I have ridden them I thought them an excellent balance of resistance and grip. Like all Conti tyres they seem to have really thick and rigid sidewalls. However I also think they 'snap' out of grip in the wet - not so predictable when pushed hard like and DHR or SE4 is.

What casing are your Continentals? Apex (DH) or Protection Apex?