[Closed] Swinley Forest users ** PLEASE READ **

It will happen, get over it 🙂

It will happen, get over it

This.
What's the problem? Who cares? 🙂

CG post your concerns up here

or here

And next time you are over this way pick up that damn Antler before I bin it 😡

I had the same experience with a dog on Stickler on Sunday. Riding along and suddenly a dog bounded across the trail in front of me, I think he belonged to a couple of riders who looked to be calling for a dog in the distance - he was definitely making his way towards them. That was the second time I have had a close encounter of the canine type on that trail, last time was in summer when the bracken was high and I came around a corner to see a couple of little dogs running towards me, they obviously knew the trail and were cutting corners to stay ahead of their owner.

The new signposts will say bikes only, but I am not sure if the plan is to ban dogs on the new trails or not?

Although I recognise your concerns, is this not a feature of the thin end of the wedge of trail user division? If we want full access to the countryside, as cyclists, we have to accept other users on 'our' trails just as walkers would have to accept us on footpaths. Added to which, come the first sunny spring weekend the place will be bedlam anyway and due caution will have to be exercised.

I told him that the trail was for mountain bikes only and he had a good chance of getting injured

I am extremely angry that mountain bikers are being put at risk due to some sense of entitlement by other people.

I think you need to be very certain of what rights exist for what types of users on the trails before you can know if (dog) walkers really are 'in the wrong place' in a legal sense.

what is the attraction of walking on those armoured and bermed trails though, if not just some sense of entitlement.

And now bikers are confined to those trails, or will be, then people can walk/run in a lot more places without the possibility of a mtb appearing.

If you are going to hit one of these people just remember to lean into them.

It works well to avoid being pushed into the path of traffic with pedestrians that step off the pavement without looking, so it probably will also help to not be knocked off the trail into some tree stump.

I think you need to be very certain of what rights exist for what types of users on the trails before you can know if (dog) walkers really are 'in the wrong place' in a legal sense.

But it is crown estate land, so surely if they deem that that trail is for mtbs only, then so be it.

The trails are there to help the estate manage risk better, and allowing a free-for-all on trails that have clearly been built for riding with some speed (otherwise why is it a red run) will not accomplish this and will lead to more law-suits against the estate.

I was up there on Sunday. It's definately a bit of a feeding frenzy as the trails start to open and people are going to be excited to ride the new stuff - i guess a few curious walkers are to be expected too, especially as the signage is pretty vague at present.

On the whole speed / going too fast thing, and looking out for walkers, all i can say is that i would usually be 100% behind this, but some of the new trails are clearly designed and constructed to be quick and twisty (some much quicker than the ones they replaced IMHO). Unless you ride the trails at a much lower pace than (seemingly) intended, walkers and riders on the same trail doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

Lots of people riding trails both ways too, so be careful on those blind corners....

I think you need to be very certain of what rights exist for what types of users on the trails before you can know if (dog) walkers really are 'in the wrong place' in a legal sense.
But it is crown estate land, so surely if they deem that that trail is for mtbs only, then so be it.

The trails are there to help the estate manage risk better, and allowing a free-for-all on trails that have clearly been built for riding with some speed (otherwise why is it a red run) will not accomplish this and will lead to more law-suits against the estate.

This - but we instantly lose that argument next time we have a run into a walker or runner on a non way marked trail. Be careful what we wish for.

While ago at stainburn I was walking down the Descent line, having been to get a spade (was a dig day) and met some people walking up it, saying you have to be careful cos of all the bikes, don't they go fast - someone could get hurt. Well yes, I replied, not yet elaborating just cos I wanted to see what they said next. They said, Well, it is a right of way, and showed me their OS map, pointing to the STRAIGHT AS A RULER dashed line that went up the forest. Anyone been on the Stainburn DL will know it is very very wiggly so as to get the most out of the hill. That, and the dashed line they were pointing to was black, so not a PROW - and is 2 metres wide up the hill, you really can't miss it. Conclusion? Some people are just morons, and you should always ride as if a coach load of morons have just been released onto the trail, if only for your own sake.

Problem we have in the UK is there isnt enough space for all of us..

You're always going to have user-conflict.

You're always going to have those who want user-specific trails.

You're always going to get those who want to be able to ride wherever they want, how they want.

Its a lack of tolerance & a lack of space that has lead to CG's spot o' bother. Its not a problem thats going to go away any time soon either..

As Frank Zappa once said (at least I think it was him..) "Do what you want, do what you will - just dont spoilt your neighbours thrill..."

I for one try to make sure that I don't upset anyone whilst I'm out on my bike, what right do I have to do that to someone?
(It doesnt mean I always play by the rules though... 😉 )

Yo chillax !!
U iz 2 uptite.
Trails is trails, be kind and generous to other users.
Man.

If we want full access to the countryside, as cyclists, we have to accept other users on 'our' trails just as walkers would have to accept us on footpaths.

Generally yes, but in this case we have already been booted out of the whole forest and restricted to MTB ghettos, we no longer have full access at Swinley. So it's a bit shit that we don't even have those to ourselves. The walkers now have the whole forest to themselves, now they want to walk all over the pittance we have left? Not really fair play imo.

closed and enforced MTB-only trails is a risky thing to wish for..

We didn't wish for it. This IS the bad consequences you are warning us about.

On the whole speed / going too fast thing, and looking out for walkers, all i can say is that i would usually be 100% behind this, but some of the new trails are clearly designed and constructed to be quick and twisty (some much quicker than the ones they replaced IMHO). Unless you ride the trails at a much lower pace than (seemingly) intended, walkers and riders on the same trail doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

As in the difference of riding style in the 2 videos in [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/swinley-forest-trails-open-and-conditions ]this[/url] Swinley thread.(although admittedly not the same trail)

Hey CG at least it wasn't the naked rambler as he passed through Basingstoke yesterday on his way south. 😯

Human nature dictates that some people just ignore signs (that's if they even see them). Hence why many MTBers ride footpaths et el. Can't really see anything being done about it.

BTW, I once hit Summer Lightning (on Leith Hill) only to find 2 horses trotting along the first section. 'kin stupid or what. They had to have seen the signs but chose to ignore them.

I understand your frustrations CG, but presumably you were well away from the lookout so it's possible that the walker is a local who doesn't realise the changes that are being made.

The optimist in me says that once people realise what's happening they'll steer well clear of the MTB trails. I don't know too many people that would purposely walk somewhere they're likely to get run into, especially not if they're dog owners as they won't want Rover getting hurt either - NHS is free, vets cost a fortune!

Thats why the natural stuff is so good never see anybody on it much.Just watch out.

So they're walking cheeky footpaths... what's your take on cheeky trails?

hats why the natural stuff is so good never see anybody on it much.Just watch out.

but you won't be able to ride the natural stuff on the crown estate soon as you will be restricted to the trails.

Or maybe you will, you just won't have a leg to stand on if you try to sue them for an accident - but who in their right mind would when riding on natural stuff.

I see it as more of an issue if they don't make the trails exclusive to mtbers, they are inviting accidents purely from how the trails have been built.

Andy - don't do Facebook any more so any chance of you doing a C & P job? Please please please don't get rid of the antler. 🙂

Jason - thanks for that, will add to my list. 🙂

Crown Estate have made changes for mtb'ers to protect themselves against legal action. Fair enough. But the problem hasn't been solved if Brainless of Bracknell ignores signs. Perhaps what's needed is very large signs?

I am concerned that if an accident happened due to a walker/dog/ etc., who would pay for the repairs to my bike? Would I need to take them to Court? How could I insist on being told their ID?

Another point, the NHS thought it was OK for me to wait 9 months for a shoulder op following a cycling accident. Try living in pain, it ain't easy!

In conclusion, at the moment the Crown Estate do not appear to be exonerated from any eventuality on the new trails.

Interesting times!

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mrlebowski - Member

Problem we have in the UK is there isnt enough space for all of us..

Problem with England is that there's lots of space but you've been corralled into a tiny proportion of it, and now the response to the inevitable contention is to try and restrict it even further.

IMO 😉

I dont ride crown estates.If i crash its my own fault i am not out to sue anybody.As i said before where i ride i dont come across to many people never had a problem with dog walkers/Runners/Horse riders etc.Only the odd MTBiker with no idea and thats only started in the last few years 😆

Lets be honest, if things like this bother you, then just don't ride there. I live within riding distance of Swinley and avoid it like the plague because its overcrowded and most of the singletrack is thrashed to death or poorly designed/constructed (new stuff excepted because I've not seen it) I gave up going there more than once a year 4 or more years ago now. It's just a poor trail centre, why anyone would travel more than about 15-20 minutes to get there is beyond me, unlike say, the Surrey Hills, which is a nice, pretty, big area that you can get lost in for a day and not see too many other riders even on the busiest of summer Sundays.

I'm just happy when I find a trail to be honest. I have no idea where I'm going at Swinley. I get lost everytime. I wish I knew where all these named trails were!

I was up there the other day though and was confused as to if there are rules on which way the trail is supposed to be ridden. If the trail sign is facing me, I guess im pointing the right way?!!

Problem with England is that there's lots of space but you've been corralled into a tiny proportion of it, and now the response to the inevitable contention is to try and restrict it even further.

Each to their own.

Having lived in the US for a few years I now find the UK kind of crowded..

and for the record. I think Swinley is great! Although I have to admit if had to travel much more than 30 mins I'd try and find somewhere else....

Cheeky trails, the other side.
Unfortunate but that's how it is.

And on a walking website elsewhere in the ether, someone is posting up the exact same concerns but from the walker's point of view...(concern that a fellow walker will be injured by a MTBer)
On a dog walker's website elsewhere, they are posting exactly the same thing...(concern that a fellow dog walker will be injured by a MTBer)
And on the Orienteering website, they aren't posting anything as apparently they never get lost so no need to seek 'advice'...

I'm still not convinced segregation works. By excluding user groups do you actually create resentment amongst them? I can see the point of it, but in places with lots of different user groups in a relatively enclosed space there's just not enough room for all of us. In Scotland and Wales there's more room, so less chance of conflict as everyone has more space.

manage your speed, it might be a down rider on the next blind corner.

alert users to single use trail status

carry on.

I'm still not convinced segregation works.

well it didn't work in the US.

but in this case the mountain bikers are effectively restricted to a very small percentage of the forest if they keep to the trails - how much surface area do they cover?

Let's say 2% whereas the walkers, etc have the other 98%, so it is a bit selfish to decide they want that 2% as well!

I'm happy with what I've got tbh. Cheeky trails here where I am work just fine.

I live within riding distance of Swinley and avoid it like the plague

I absolutely loved it, and I'd go there over and over again to ride the same trails. Mostly at night mind, so it wasn't crowded.

I used to ride expecting the unexpected, same as I do everywhere else.

How on earth can you nearly hit something on stickler - its flat with no trees

Eyes up is the rule i'd say!

I've had dogs run out on me as well in Swinley. No, its not nice, but i realise that i'm the one doing 20mph - so its up to me to be in a position to scrub the speed of

We just have to live with the fact that the trails are there to be shared.

Just imagine if all the ramblers got annoyed with us bikers when we're out riding natural trails?? 🙂

I can't fathom people walking on the made up trails, however I met at least 3 mtbers riding at speed the wrong way on the new one way trails having gone right past some no entry signs. And if it was anyone on here who careered the wrong way towards me and my little lass on the new 'blue' trail and glowered at me when you had to stop then I was just willing you to open your mouth so I could f*****g start on you!

How on earth can you nearly hit something on stickler - its flat with no trees

All it takes is a dog that's received no training coupled with a muppet owner. 🙂

We just have to live with the fact that the trails are there to be shared.

I thought the benefit of these new trails was that we wouldn't have to share thus avoiding any Crown Estate liability claims. ❓

I think he belonged to a couple of riders who looked to be calling for a dog in the distance

To my knowledge, the Crown Estate has not had any legal proceedings raised due to walker/bike clashes

All litigation cases has been linked to cyclists who have crashed trying to sue the Crown Estate

This matter really makes my blood boil - if your out riding a bike off-road, then you need to understand and accept the dangers

How on earth can you nearly hit something on stickler - its flat with no trees

we are not talking about only stickler though, some of the new trails have been built to carry speed.

I've had dogs run out on me as well in Swinley. No, its not nice, but i realise that i'm the one doing 20mph - so its up to me to be in a position to scrub the speed of

We just have to live with the fact that the trails are there to be shared.

but the new trails are not there to be shared, or so I understood.

There are loads of other bits of the forest where a dog can run out of control. If a dog crosses your path it is easy to fold a wheel if you hit it and also come off the bike and gain an injury, especially if, like CG, you are already carrying on.

To my knowledge, the Crown Estate has not had any legal proceedings raised due to walker/bike clashes

yet is the operative word, and the case will be clearer cut if they don't mark the trails as bike only (not mtb only otherwise what happens to the few unicycles I have seen and all the crossers...)

There is 2,500 acres of Forest. No need for non-riders to use the mountain bike trails.

There is 2,500 acres of Forest

you should follow such a statement with ',init' if you are going to use the word 'is'...

I would imagine given the muddy mess a lot of Swinley always seems to be when I take a trip up the M3 that walkers have seen the newly surfaced trails and thought that for once they would have a walk without the risk of losing their wellies.

Thing is, bleating about how wrong it is on the internet won't stop people, dogs, deer and the odd squirrel from using the 'bike' trails. You will have to accept it and ride appropritely. It sucks, I agree but live and let live or you're just a heart attack waiting to happen. Lets you justify that cheeky footpath section you undoubtedly ride somewhere to yourself too.....

But people don't follow signed instructions.

They ignore speed limits. They walk ride where the want and we all like to feel free from rules and regs.. especially outdoors. It'll happen no matter what. Dogs are random animals, they'll go where they like. As are people )
And big signs just make it worse, I hate signs and all that crp in the woods. Makes it feel like a Go-Ape park..

Micro-management of ROWs doesn't work anywhere. We need to be responsible in this situation in the same way that cars need to be responsible in towns where kids run around at school closing time for ex - you're the heavier + faster party. I've seen walkers at Afan, CYB, the Lindarets DH, the GR5 PDS bike section, the lot. I've mentioned that they're on a bike path at times but only in passing for their safety, not a rant. I ride cheekies and I'm used to stopping / diverting when there's people about, what goes around comes around.

Unless you have a number on and are within the tapes, you don't have a 'pin it' card. Ride responsibly, accept the risks and look out for others. Situations in your OP are fairly rare and it's just common sense and decency. Just my take on it that's all.

I ride with the dog at swinley often and yes he does run the berms and walkers soon get out of the way if you shout coming through, shouldnt we all just accept that there will at times be close calls and thats just part of life, no need to be upset and segregate everyone from everyone....

It's not some trail centre in the middle of nowhere but is a forest in the middle of a huge urban conurbation which has been used by walkers/dog owners, yadda yadda for years.

The signs will either get ripped down or just ignored by the belligerent few.

If it isn't signed and restricted to mtbers then it is a massive fail in terms of liability management.

If people sue because they are using a built trail and it is not safe enough to prevent their accident, then they are going to sue if using a built trail but coming across an unexpected hazard, such as a dog or walker/runner.

As CG reports, it was months before the NHS fixed her arm.

If you are on such a trail and you crash and do something serious because of an out of control dog then the temptation to sue someone for medical damages will be high for some people.

Unless you have a number on and are within the tapes, you don't have a 'pin it' card.

Or unless you can see far enough ahead. Not easy at Swinley of course. I learned a lesson on certain bits of trail, I crashed into another rider.

Seems to me they could've easily taken out a few bushes and massivley reduced the potential for crashes, but that's not legally watertight.

I learned a lesson on certain bits of trail, I crashed into another rider.

they are also going to have to make the trails directional now - at least on the trails that have more flow to them and so will carry more speed.

the speeds in this video are not unreasonable and it would be difficult to miss someone coming the other way at this speed:

obviously you may have riders down in front of you as well, but they won't be coming towards you so you have a little more time to react.

When the new trails open they are going to all be one way, so should remove the chance of a head on collision. The Seagull trail used to be bad for this as you could carry quite a lot of speed in both directions, and especially in Spring and Summer when the bracken grows up there where a few blind corners. Hopefully the new trails will have massive no entry signs at the end of each trail. It still won't stop people stopping in the middle of trails...

It still won't stop people stopping in the middle of trails...

then they get hit - it is like skiing, init?

I can't fathom people walking on the made up trails, however I met at least 3 mtbers riding at speed the wrong way on the new one way trails having gone right past some no entry signs. And if it was anyone on here who careered the wrong way towards me and my little lass on the new 'blue' trail and glowered at me when you had to stop then I was just willing you to open your mouth so I could f*****g start on you!

Hello all.

Was it Sunday at about 2pm? the last of the three riders going the wrong way effectively played chicken with me on the large hump bits, he gave way I suspect when he noticed I'm quite heavy and my bike is mostly from the last century.

Nice new trails open so far, I know they're blue runs but I do find it slightly ironic that the trails are smoother than my local roads. I ride Swinley a lot so if the trails are all going to be pretty smooth I'll go back to a rigid fork.

Not fussed about dogs on trails as squirrels and deer have caused me nearer misses, as long as they don't leave dog eggs.

Trails will probaably not stay smooth for long given the amount of traffic they receive.

Problem with England is that there's lots of space but you've been corralled into a tiny proportion of it, and now the response to the inevitable contention is to try and restrict it even further.

Each to their own.

Having lived in the US for a few years I now find the UK kind of crowded..

I think he was refering to the South East where you can't get out of sight of a town anywhere. Compared to say the North Yorks Moors, Northumberland or the Forest of Bowland where you could do 20 miles in any direction and not see anything more than a farmhouse.

Never fails to amaze me quite how empty the Forest of Bowland is, it's bordered by Lancaster, Preston etc, yet for a 25x25mile square on the map it's criss crossed by only 3 single track roads!

Let's say 2% whereas the walkers, etc have the other 98%, so it is a bit selfish to decide they want that 2% as well!

Ban MTB'ers from Stanage in the Peaks then, it's part of the '2%' motorbikes and 4x4's are allowed.

Walkers would argue that they're restricted (not at Swinley) to footpaths rather than open access, so would probably like 'their' trails to themselves too.

Could almost be at swinley from the scenery...

Never fails to amaze me quite how empty the Forest of Bowland is, it's bordered by Lancaster, Preston etc

...

cinnamon_girl - Member

There is 2,500 acres of Forest. No need for non-riders to use the mountain bike trails.

There is a damn sight more than that at Thetford and the trails are full of walkers early on a Sunday

...No step away

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JamesOz - bingo!

Thought so. It was the scowl thing, big wizards sleeve that one. I was showing a guy round who had the worlds creakiest/heaviest bike at the time.

No phone call received. 😐

Guess it will start getting busy now as news of open trails filters through.

We we there at the weekend. Bly a few cases of folk going the 'wrong' way on new stuff. Hopefully this will improve once proper signage is in. Disappointing to see clearly unfinished stuff being forced open and ridden anyway.

My friend was telling me that she saw mums with pushchairs on some new singletrack. 😯

Also, an update to say that a phone call was not received from Crown Estate. Civil servants eh. 🙄

Sorry but double standards .....
How many on here post about their use of cheeky trails, aka footpaths ??

Im not tarring everyone with the same brush cg but its crown forest so folk presume that its open to all and just go for a wander in the woods - youll never stop that.

Maybe call Jeremy Vine.

My friend was telling me that she saw mums with pushchairs on some new singletrack.

Will they be helping out on trail- building days?

Things like this, this level of user-conflict, the level of population density, is why I'm moving out of the SE.