[Closed] Suspension lockout, mostly pointless.

Now let’s try that again on Xc Bikes. For the riding that gets done by most people most of the time, bridleways tracks, roads, etc.

For the riding that gets done by most people most of the time, bridleways tracks, roads, etc.

Well not on here, mostly they're locked out as they're rigid gravel bikes. 😉

Can't remember why but I end up have a conversation with Cy (Cotic) about lock out - all to do with Cane Creek climb lever (I think).
His comment was " why would you want to lock suspension out - you hit uneven ground going up hill as well as down hill" He seemed to think there was little point - and he designs bikes ...

I’m with one of the people on the pink bike thread - if I lock stuff out for a climb I almost always forget to unlock it in my enthusiasm to get having fun on the next descent. So I normally leave the fork well alone (the rct3 one - the rc2 doesn’t have a lock out) and only use the shock lockout / platform thing for long road sections between bridleways. Other than that everything on the bike is staying open suspension wise at all times.

Now let’s try that again on Xc Bikes. For the riding that gets done by most people most of the time, bridleways tracks, roads, etc.

on an xc bike I expect it'd make even less difference as the suspension would be more laid out for pedalling performance compared to a big bike (and there's less of it to bob into to start with).

As someone who's just got a full suss after many years away, and one with superb pedalling characteristics (Pole Evolink), I find the traction available on climbs absolutely remarkable. Its incredible how easy it makes it to ride up anything lumpy, just amazing.

Now let’s try that again on Xc Bikes. For the riding that gets done by most people most of the time, bridleways tracks, roads, etc.

Higher speeds, and therefore resistance is even more focused on tyre roll, and even air resistance, rather than pedal bob at (relatively) low speeds and high power?

Someone on PB commented something along the lines of holding 315 watts for a sustained (multiple minutes, so not a sprint) climb whilst pedalling smoothly at 80rpm is probably beyond most of the readers.

150 watts with a fat biffer mashing the pedals at 50rpm might give a better benefit to the lockout.

On the other hand, if it takes two seconds to lock and unlock your shock, you'll need to be climbing for about eight minutes before you recoup that time on the Privateer.

That's the take-home for me. On my Enduro (well known for it's FSR bob), there's a couple of off road climbs that are sufficiently smooth and long that I'd engage the firm setting on the HSC on the TTX shock, and on rougher tracks I've never would as you'd loose grip, I almost never bother with locking out the fork.

Yep. Maybe if you're linking off-road sections with some road, but then I've done that in the past a few times & forgotten to unlock it so never bother now!

i commented on the PBH thread
id rather set and forget, but.. if im up on the bars unlocked.. im bouncing up and down like hell... thats technique no doubt.. but... since i havent got technique, ive got lockout.. surely bouncing up and down rather than smooth circles is not efficient, and locking out, or reducing bob.. is jsut more efficient?

One thing that study didn't address was that any bob could potentially mean putting more effort in that's not being transmitted to the pedals (core tone, arms etc) which obviously wouldn't reach the power readings. So the difference could theoretically be greater than they found. I guess you'd need to do a VO2 test to exclude that though.

But it's a nice short experiment that I will use as further reason to NEVER touch my lockout lever. I'm really bad for leaving it on accidentally when I hit the DH so it's nice to know this strategy doesn't lose me much time on climbs.

Oh, and obviously you should leave the suspension open when doing anything remotely bumpy.

I only ever used a lockout on very long road climbs.

Off road you need / benefit from suspension up hill and down.

Now let’s try that again on Xc Bikes. For the riding that gets done by most people most of the time, bridleways tracks, roads, etc.

Lol is that what you think XC riding is?

I lock my (XC) bike out for the roads to and from the trails.

I haven't used the fork lockout on any bike I've owned for the last 20yrs. I've owned quite a few rigid MTB's, most of which I've really liked, but suspension remains open for me.

Not read the article

But I would lock out on a gravel climb, road climb etc.

Techy climb - no leave unlocked

Is that what the article is saying? If so wasnt this common sense 20 years ago?

If so wasnt this common sense 20 years ago?

quite possibly, but a lot of utter utter bullshit was "common sense 20 years ago" too.

the relationship between geometry/handling when changing wheel sizes
narrower tyres are faster
reverse fit the rear tyre
stem length as a means of altering fit

So it is worth actually putting the claims to the test

I love the lockout (well, climb lever) on my CCDB Air IL... it still allows suspension, but it slows compressin and rebound..great for stand-up peddaling...

DrP

Smooth seated power as in that test is probably where you'd get the least advantage from suspension lockout.

Someone on PB commented something along the lines of holding 315 watts for a sustained (multiple minutes, so not a sprint) climb whilst pedalling smoothly at 80rpm is probably beyond most of the readers.

I can do that and it depends on the bike, wether I adjust the suspension for climbing.

Same as DrP on my Rocket, the CCDB Air IL climb lever does do what it says it does. Great for tarmac and smooth fireroad climbs and still allows the suspension to move. Every other lockout on every other bike I own or have owned has always felt like they made things worse. I know on my Trek Fuel EX that locking that out (it locks solid) should feel like my hardtail but the hardtail has a bit of give in the frame whereas the Trek doesn't so it feels horrid. Thankfully it's a Fox CTD so I just use the Trail setting for tarmac and fireroads, acts similar to the CC climb switch but with a bit too much compression damping.

Fork lockouts just seem pointless to me but then I'm pretty light so it may be different for heavier people.

Personally I never use it. Disconnected on my bikes where it can be. I am a sit and spin climber tho not a stand up and mash

I know it's not very popular, but I think the Brain shock on my Stumpjumper works well. Maybe if I was to back-to-back compare the performance of the shock itself to a better shock, it might be found wanting. But, it seems to work well & there are never any occasions when I think the shock is the limiting factor in my riding.

When riding, it just gets on with either being locked out or active.
I used to really appreciate it when doing events like the Twentyfour12. You don't have to worry about lockouts, just ride & as soon as you hit a smooth section it's locked out before going back to active for the next singletrack trail.
For those who can't justify owning a 'race bike' , I think it gives a psychological boost that the bike isn't making things harder for you than it needs to.

How much of a difference it makes in terms of numbers is hard to say, but probably quite small. It's not all about the numbers though.

Fork lockouts just seem pointless to me

They add a huge thrill when you forget to unlock them before you launch down a rough descent. I think I've used mine twice, that was enough excitement for me.

Fork lockouts just seem pointless to me but then I’m pretty light so it may be different for heavier people.

I don't think it's a weight thing so much as a climbing technique thing. If you're out of the saddle and using the leverage of the bike to climb, you'll get an advantage from the front of the bike being stiffer.

Not read the article
[...]
Is that what the article is saying?

No. Maybe try reading it?

i read it. I'm not sure it would get through peer review...

Personally i think a lockout should make the bike like a hardtail, if you want extra grip comfort leave the shock open. The scott twinlock does a real good job of that.

I rarely bother locking out. Forwarded the article to mates, one of whom thinks a lockout shock will turn his Enduro Evo into an XC race hardtail with the flick of a switch, another who’s just bought one for that reason, to turn his 180mm gnarpoon into a hardtail.

It’s wrong, I’m told.

Sorry but if you don’t think locking out the suspension makes any difference, you’re not trying hard enough.

Almost always use lockout for rocky technical climbs to reduce chances of pedal strikes. Works for me.

Would be interested to know the difference between locked out or not on really hard / sprint effort.

i love a lockout. great for those fire road ups. i even use the travel adjust on my forks when in wales!

Sorry but if you don’t think locking out the suspension makes any difference, you’re not trying hard enough.

No-one say it makes no difference..but reading the article, it's VERY small.

Fork lockouts just seem pointless to me

I think my Lyriks are labelled Descend / Trail / Climb or something like that, they might as well be Good / Bad / Awful.

I've used them once in a moment of pure desperation when I was so tired the only thing keeping my head up with the chin strap on my helmet, it just made the rear bob more.

As for the rear, I use the climb which all the time, it's not a lock out, I haven't actually seen a 'lock out' shock for 15 years, it makes it stiffer, I don't know what it does, compression damping probably. it certainly feels more efficient, but I guess the data shows it's not much, but it also helps avoid pedal strikes on rough climbs.

That said, I detest climbing, 90% of my riding is Trail Centres with long, boring fireroad climbs and I mostly chat to my mates and try not to think about it, it's also usually 1 long climb and a couple of smaller 'top up' climbs, I wouldn't bother for a couple of seconds of mid-section climbs.

No-one say it makes no difference..but reading the article, it’s VERY small

On a smooth tarmac hill, with no honking on the bars or roots to wallow over...

I reckon my bike still climbs rocky tech BETTER with the climb switch on..

DrP

my tuppence;

On XC bikes, it will all make a difference when you up out of the saddle stamping the pedals furiously.

On trail/enduro/?<cough>DC<cough> not convinced certainly on forks, though i am convinced it lessens the effort/fatigue when the rear is locked therefore being fresher for when you reach a trail head.

A full lock out is mostly pointless unless you are on the road, i agree you need something to climb, by Spitfire with the CCDBair on it climbs brilliantly as it sucks up routes/rocks on climbs- if it was fully locked out, yes easy to spin the wheel when it jumps over everything..

Makes quite a big difference on my Orange. It's pretty easy to flick on and off. Great for big days out with long slog climbs. I don't know about time and power change but it makes the bike ride much better on a long fire road climb. Every little helps for me.

One thing that study didn’t address was that any bob could potentially mean putting more effort in that’s not being transmitted to the pedals (core tone, arms etc) which obviously wouldn’t reach the power readings.

This. The power your body is putting out is not all going into rotating the cranks so a power meter can't measure it.

Does anyone's bike bob these days anyway?

Re standing up and mashing pedals - the "lockout" on my Monarch and the "Climb" setting on my Fox forks still move when I do that. So there's no benefit at all really, off road, for me.

This. The power your body is putting out is not all going into rotating the cranks so a power meter can’t measure it.

So in that case assuming the power is equal, you'd expect higher HRs on the the non-locked out bike ?

having a lot of suspension damping (but not locked) is possibly worse than wide open. Locked (absolutely) is the same as a hardtail, but lots of damping means your downwards energy is converted into heat (and lost) by the damper. If you ran on no damping, you'd bounce around a lot but you'd get almost all the energy back as the spring decompresses (maybe, I'm not a scientist)

The test does seem designed almost to reduce the usefulness/impactfulness of the lockout, and it still shows a benefit. I reckon in the real world it'd be more pronounced, especially once you add in tired pedalling, short steep out of seat stabs, etc. Like, forget about steadily and carefully pedalling at 80rpm and 315w, imagine you've just arrived at the main tarmac climb on the Mega course and your lungs are already on fire.

mrmoofo
Full Member

Can’t remember why but I end up have a conversation with Cy (Cotic) about lock out – all to do with Cane Creek climb lever (I think).
His comment was ” why would you want to lock suspension out – you hit uneven ground going up hill as well as down hill” He seemed to think there was little point – and he designs bikes …

I'd say that's a good argument against building bikes with a lot of unswitchoffable pedal platform or antisquat or similar, but not against lockouts. Because sure you can hit uneven ground going up, and you don't need to leave the lockout on for that- you choose when to use it.

And that's the more unseen advantage of the lever- it allows the bike designer to avoid compromise. Sure, you can build a single setting shock and suspension design that works well but can you really say it works as well as having multiple settings? Never in my experience, and tbf I don't think it's possible. But that's not something you feel when you flip the lever- you're choosing between the settings it made possible, not usually the setting it'd have to have without the lever.

Then there's the other option, different usable pedalling modes. I have a Trek Remedy 29 which has a true "wide open/trail/pedal" shock, and it's genuinely 3 good modes for different situations not just a crippled climbing mode. The wide open is basically full dh mode, it swallows up lumps but it pedals like a jelly. The trail mode is good most of the time, it's an excellent balance. And the climb mode, tbh that's the only one I'd change and I'd make it stiffer but it's still useful.

If the bike didn't have a lever, it'd probably just have the middle setting or something extremely like it. And it'd be much worse for it and gain nothing. If you don't want to use the lever, you lose nothing by having it.

I don't think measuring the efforts by power output is a fair comparison.

I think lockout gives you a more stable platform to push the power out against. Similar to why many people find it easier to put out more power on a climb. I think it's "easier" to produce more power with the lockout on (assuming we're talking about non technical, smooth climbs etc and a rear shock).

HR would be the only way to measure the benefits but as we know, HR is inconsistent at the best of times so it'd be very difficult to quantify anything meaningful

I am very much in the old school XC/Marathon riding camp and I think lockouts make a massive difference for that kind of riding. I will always lock out on the road or any smooth gravel climb etc. But I will almost certainly go full open as soon as I hit anything remotely bumpy. I hate the feeling of a bike not be as efficient as possible at all times but that's probably because I spend most of my time on a road bike these days.
Moral of my story is, lock outs work for some people and not others!

I also ride a fully rigid MTB, and it's far nicer than my FS when 'locked out'. I'm not entirely sure why though.

Same for the others on the Cane Creek. I have a DB Coil IL and the climb switch is the only lockout I've ever really got along with. It's great - it keeps the shock mobile, but adjusts the damping. Minimises pedal strikes, but gets the traction benefits of rear suspension. Brilliant, I tell ya! 🙂

Never used it on my Hemlock.. didn't even realise the Jeffsy didn't have it for a while.

Don't see the point if you aren't a racer who needs to sprint

I also ride a fully rigid MTB, and it’s far nicer than my FS when ‘locked out’. I’m not entirely sure why though.

I sometimes feel this... I'd say 'faster' not nicer.. but that's probably because comparing the climbing of a weight weenie titanium rigid singlespeed against a 150/160mm travel trail bike isn't really fair!!

The SS just rockets up stuff!!

DrP

My Giant Anthem climbs much worse in full lockout mode than in the middle 'trail' setting. It also feels really weird when fully locked out pedalling on the road. Ergo, I never use the lockout. I'd expect it to make even less difference on a proper trail bike.

I use my twin remote lock out all the time, it’s excellent and used as intuitively as a dropper.

So in that case assuming the power is equal, you’d expect higher HRs on the the non-locked out bike ?

Yes I suppose you could use HR as a surrogate for VO2 but it's not a very sensitive measure and will drift throughout the course of an afternoon's testing so you'd have to use it VERY carefully.

having a lot of suspension damping (but not locked) is possibly worse than wide open. Locked (absolutely) is the same as a hardtail, but lots of damping means your downwards energy is converted into heat (and lost) by the damper. If you ran on no damping, you’d bounce around a lot but you’d get almost all the energy back as the spring decompresses (maybe, I’m not a scientist)

I think what you've said is true for rebound damping (which resists the shock's return) but not true for compression damping. Lockout circuits usually only affect compression I think.

But in a way you are right. With a shock 'open' we usually mean no platform/ compression damping but with the rebound damping still active. So yes the rebound circuit is sapping your power. I had wondered if you could measure the oil temperature and work out energy lost via the damper.

One thing that study didn’t address was that any bob could potentially mean putting more effort in that’s not being transmitted to the pedals (core tone, arms etc) which obviously wouldn’t reach the power readings.

This again. Even on a short travel FS, seated, I can feel the extra effort to keep my body centred in the most efficient spot for pedalling. It's not so much time, as cumulative extra fatigue on a longer ride.

Lockout circuits usually only affect compression I think.

Most do..
The Cane creek DB shocks affect compression AND rebound..hence why they da bomb....!

DrP

I sometimes feel this… I’d say ‘faster’ not nicer.. but that’s probably because comparing the climbing of a weight weenie titanium rigid singlespeed against a 150/160mm travel trail bike isn’t really fair!!

My rigid bike and XC FS weigh about the same and both are geared. The rigid bike is a much more 'positive' feeling place to sit and pedal. And even more to stand and pedal. I think it's because I can move around a lot more and it doesn't boing about. And it's much stiffer side to side because there aren't pivots and stuff. Not that my FS bike is particularly flexy, but I can really feel it.

The bike doesn't bob under pedalling, but if I put my weight forward, say, the front goes down, and vice versa - this is unavoidable unless you have a full lockout. When riding it unlocked I don't notice any extra effort, but it does make me sit and spin which is arguably more efficient than moving around. But it's less 'satisfying', somehow.

Interesting, but more PB bro Science.

A lockout is designed to get you stood and cranking, no lockout and that's not feasible without significant lost energy.

Imagine a system that enables you to lock your bike out without taking your hands off the bars, even an option allowing you to shorten the rear wheel travel to increase efficiency in technical climbs or flow trail and then still with hands on the bars, open the suspension all the way up for max gnar DH ability.

as a fat knacker i font the lockout (or trail to open ) on my shock has a massive difference. On hills using it keeps my knees free of pain and means i can do about 5 miles more than with it fully open.

go figure.

Similar could be said for dropper posts.

The lockouts on Marzocchi forks used to work on the rebound circuit, effectively introducing a top-out spacer into the fork. I really liked this feature, it had the effect of stiffening the fork (but it would still respond to big hits) and steepening up the bike for climbing.

+1 for the lockout on the Cane Creek DB shocks, you get a bit of suspension on climbs which works nicely.

A lockout is designed to get you stood and cranking, no lockout and that’s not feasible without significant lost energy.

I don't think the energy lost by bobbing suspension is what you'd call 'significant'. I mean shocks can get slightly warm, but only after smashing it down some rough descent. The tiny amount of bob you get when pedalling is nothing. Even when standing on the pedals the bounce is trivial, I'd say. The reason I don't like it is because it feels less positive, it's a less pleasing sensation. I really don't think I'm any faster locked out or not, on a smooth trail.

I was going to say what greyspoke said but in less technical terms. On my hardtails I rarely use lockout. It adds little. I used to really like the lock down (was it ETA?) on my marzocchis back in the day. Not so much the lack of movement but the steeper angle for climbing and fast non technical stuff.

I’ve always constantly turned on climb switch for any length of climb on my full suss. Just don’t like the feeling without which may be due to riding hardtail and road bikes? Always done this across a number of bikes and shocks.

Cane creek air il currently and the mirror thoughts above of it being the best by far.

Scotts twin lock is brilliant and i use it all the time makes total sense especially the way the short travel option works..i also love the full lock out ..

I have removed it from the fork and feel it make the twinlock make even more sense when climbing...

You could look at it as a geometry adjuster at the flik of a thumb...

Similar could be said for dropper posts.

I think you are on your own with that one.

I am the same as EhWhoMe

Scott twin remote lock out is great for the rear, and bit like them, I adjusted the front fork to only into "traction control" when rear sock is in full lock out.
I hardly ever lock out the front forks (on any bike) for some reason.

The rear shock when in "traction control" was great for climbing it just put you and the bike in a better riding position.

Dropper posts are probably the best thing in MTB in recent memory for me.

Couldn't live without one for any sort of tech riding now. I was forever dropping my post or riding with a compromised saddle height.

Lockouts? Barely used them when I had them...when im climbing I want the suspension to work so it can smooth of bumps and add traction

The travel drop feature on my Wotans was a much more useful feature as it lowered the front end but still kept the fork working.

It would be interesting to see this comparison done on a bike with a idler and adjustable anti-squat, so you could run the exact same shock tune, axle path, leverage curve, and then see how the climb switch benefits vary vs anti-squat %.

It's an interesting side effect to the loss of a granny ring.

On lots of suspension designs the suspension would naturally firm up in the granny ring because of the relative location of the pivot to the chain - it added pedal feedback but this would mean pedal induced bob was actively resisted rather than isolated (as modern designs try to do)

If you are see sawing your weight all over the place and causing the suspension to bob, then that's not particularly efficient anyway, and that's a different thing to suspension movement caused by pedalling action. Climbing out of the saddle is exhausting!

Sit and spin and let the suspension do its job.

I only ever used a lockout on very long road climbs.

Off road you need / benefit from suspension up hill and down.

This. I very rarely use it and when I do at least half the time I leave it on for (at least) the next descent and wonder why the suspension feels crap. Off road traction is always better with it off.