[Closed] Surrey hills riders, put the spades away

I think we can expand this to "Riders everywhere, unless it's your land, or you have express permission from the landowner, put the spades away".

The problem is it's the same small minority of riders that would still ride there if there was a ban.

I think if they banned riding there, it would be more than a small minority that still rode there.

The comments...

Urgh.

It's odd, those jumps have been there for probably at least 6 months. There have been previous jumps there for much longer than that which were accepted, they've basically had some tlc, but they have built a few more which have taken things a step too far

Part of the problem is how to impose and police a ban of an area covering (fact check?) 8000 acres and ridden by thousands.
BPW had to call in the police to stop folks riding their very obvious trails during lockdown, in a relatively small area. I don't see how the Hurtwood can be effectively policed.
The current method of closing trails is large scale felling of immature trees, in a working forest. This has a double negative on the forest's ability to generate income (man with a saw, tree not reaching maturity) so doesn't seem feasible across the whole network.
As ever, it's the minority spoiling it for the masses. And as ever, I will ride elsewhere and leave the Hurtwood well alone

The comments…

Urgh.

Yeah. You only need a few people who don't give a **** to soil the party. Point it out to them, and guess what, they don't give a ****. 🙁

Edit: I meant to write "spoil the party", but I'm going to leave it. Works on so many levels (2).

The comments…

Urgh.

Never read the comments...

It's an odd post for a few reasons but the main issue with that area of the surrey hills is the sheer number of people that come from afar to ride, a figure which has massively increased thanks to the instagram etc of Brendog, Kerr, Wilkins etc. Even today there is video of some, albeit very talented, young lad flipping one of the jumps on winterfold. The last few weekends people were dumping cars all over the place and there were groups of 15+ riders at the cross sections of the fireroads; it was a somewhat embarrassing reflection of our peer group. Riders feel the need to tell their mate that the trail was "'kin awesome" in front of a family with young kids out for a walk, it's all just a bit inconsiderate. As mentioned above, given how long those jumps have been there on pitch in one form or another, i suspect it is more the attitude of mtbers in the area that is causing more kick back with land owners from local residents than the trail building. Sadly, as someone who lives and rides in the area, the only solution i can see is to flatten almost all the trails on pitch and winterfold.

I live and ride here, have done for 20+ years, there have always been trails I would be a hypocrite if I said don’t build at all. However, i have lots of sympathy for Hurtwood, the same is going to happen in Redlands (which frankly was unthinkable as no one ever went there) as there are simply too many big features being dug out in clear view. A number of established rider-builders are normally pretty good at doing stuff, tucked away without the big jump lines and massive loam trails, and these are what have been generally accepted. This 54it however is silly, its jeopardising the accepted trails on the same parcels of land. Its attracting people “just for the bike” and not as part of “for the environment and in nature feeling”, you can jump bikes anyway, look at Tilworth, Rogate, BullTrack, Swinley (park bit) – there’s loads.
MBR started this fu4kwittery years ago and it’s now escalated soo much that the entire feeling of the hills has changed, this is a popular opinion.

Also, people need to stop straightening out singletrack just so that they can get their wagon wheels through it quicker.. grr

edited for shonky spelling

Are these the jumps in Sam's video at 10.35?

Kayak - Yes.

Yep.

The lockdown does appear to have sent people out digging and not realising what they are building and where!

Yettington/Woodbury near me had some good singletracks scratched in over the winter which were ace to ride at the beginning of lockdown. Few weeks later road gaps and wooden features popped up and within a few weeks it had all been destroyed by the landowner, even the singletracks which had been there for ages, a real good local spot gone just like that!

I remember the old north shore stuff off the Greensand Way between Holmbury and Leith. This is just the same thing coming around again. Some people think every ride should look like the psikk editz they see and think they have a divine right to build whatever they want wherever they want it.

Erodes all good will and efforts at trail access.

ok, possibly stupid post, but surely this suggests there is an untapped requirement for a modern bike park ie a managed one, somewhere in the area? I'm not trying to suggest it's a good idea to build features in/on you don't own, but realistically, the UK is "owned" by the few and ridden by the masses.

Maxtorque - see the post from sui earlier, there is already "Tilworth, Rogate, BullTrack, Swinley (park bit) "

Part of what makes (made) the surrey hills great was the natural feel of a lot of small singletrack trails in a beautiful setting. It shouldnt be a bike park and is always a shared use area that is in a quite densely populated bit of the country.

Why does it need to be in the area? I bet a good slice of the people who ride Pitch/Leith Holmbury travel to get there and could just as easily travel to Swinley, Chicksands, Woburn, Milford, Rogate, Wind Hill...

Tom CArdy and aSam Pilgrim both live in Essex, don't they?

Sam pilgrim was there the other day with Brendan fairclough and Ollie Wilkins as well

Amazing bike riders but absolute lads who don't really give a ****

Got interrupted mid-type. Wot they sed.

.

Part of what makes (made) the surrey hills great was the natural feel of a lot of small singletrack trails in a beautiful setting. It shouldnt be a bike park and is always a shared use area that is in a quite densely populated bit of the country.

Really appreciate what they've done in the area to date, especially Hurtwood. Seems to be managed well, trails are on trailforks which is a massive rarity in the UK, riding not just tolerated but encouraged, some sort of oversight from the rangers who seem to be for the bikers (and everyone else) rather than against them. There's a nice community to the place which I've not seen anywhere else in the UK.

There's some lovely varied forest singletrack for all abilities; and some twits feel the need to make a ridiculous set of motorway jumps that are just like every other set of jumps in the country, and result in the whole lot being flattened.

I have wondered if all the videos of the riding spots that have been appearing on various channels of local riders would bring some of the idiots out building things in that area they shouldn't. It's all well and good channels like GMBN and Sam Pilgrim's during tutorials on how to dig a local spot with a disclaimer at the beginning saying to only dig if you have permission but you'll always get the minority who ignore that bit and get straight to digging in massively inappropriate areas and causing issues for everyone. Guessing it's the flipside to the coin that has all the families out on bikes at the moment.

The lockdown does appear to have sent people out digging and not realising what they are building and where!

Yep, my local DH spot that has been unoficially tolerated is in danger of being closed down due to lots of digging and riders doing stupid things during lockdown. Someone built a road gap over a bridleway used by the local horse stables, with very little way of seeing what was on said bridleway until you had committed to the jump. Cue one very scared couple who had a bike pass between them at shoulder height and a few very scared horses from similar close encounters. It's not the horses being scared, they're fine round bikes and people normally. it's the stupid jump.

Ah, I was thinking that this was on Northern Monkey, which I think may be out of bounds now, like Evian, which I assumed was the core issue.

But if they're the jumps in the Sam Pilgrim vid then they're the ones near the bottom of Thick & Creamy?  I assume this means that the land is not currently out of bounds to riders, but it's more the extent of the unsanctioned digging / damage which is the problem?

But if they’re the jumps in the Sam Pilgrim vid then they’re the ones near the bottom of Thick & Creamy

Kind of but not really. Off the top of pitch but more straight down from the trig point rather than off to the side. Latter part of trail that's been there for 10+ years albeit now it's more of a massive rut. Assuming you ignore the traffic from the viewpoint, which these jumps don't change, then they're very much out the way ie you'll never get walkers down there, nor will you get more novice riders going into them at speed as you need to be reasonable to get down the trail to them anyway. They're also very nicely made from a riding them perspective.

And Northern Monkey is still running, or at least it was a week or so ago. I'm surprised the jumps down the bottom of there haven't been flattened tbh.

Razorra - as u suggest there is an issue with riders on land that is NOT hurtwood managed (and privatly owned) on winterfold being ridden which has lead to closure of evian

This particular post is the level of unsanctioned building of massive jumps and large cutting into the hillside within hurtwood land. Where we are basically biting the hand that feeds (eg the only land manager that is broadly supportive)

You know what, step back from the legal specifics, what should this land be used for, who should have access?

In a densely populated part of the country essentially the land should all be parkland.

Throw a few million at it, buy it all up and develop it as a leisure land for the many.

Even better, expropriate the lot.

Cheers, both.

Gotma - that is where I was thinking, I stumbled across them a few weeks ago riding off one of the trails near the start of T&C (I think the same trail they ride down to them on in the SP vid).

Titus - thanks, that's what I thought.  Was gutted that Evian and Secret Santa went off limits as loved those trails, but stopped heading to that area as soon as it was 'closed off'.

I think one of the key problems is that there's alway going to be riders (I'm generalising here) think it's cool not to care about others opinions, and that their party is being pooped by 'the man', rather than taking off the blinkers and seeing the bigger picture. This is very much confirmed by some of the social media post comments (seen this post shared a fair few times).

I'd say that was the medium picture:

Small picture: Build trails, sod the consequences.

Mid picture: Keep the landowners happy, keep the status quo, protect what access there is.

Big picture: What should the access be, what should these hills and environment be used for? None of it is 'natural' it's all a product of choices.

Turn it all into managed common land. Get trail building group to work to a plan.

Really this area should go like the Ride Sheffield trails. Why should X number of landowners trump thousands of walkers and riders? Contrast the situation a few miles over on Leith Hill where they work to maintain the pleasant environment and provide fair access to diverse user groups.

Agree with @Sui, loads of local trails that were very nice have been turned into straight-lined motorways because people can't ride them. The most annoying bit is they flatten it and then build jumps to make it challenging...leave it as it is, learn to ride your bike properly and appreciate what is there (it is there for everyone).
Winds me up but newer riders today don't see the issue, which makes it worse.

So the Ranger was getting some flak so felt the need to clarify some arguments, I'm glad he's come out with some blunt points..

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@ajt123 Leith is by far less tolerant, there is one sanctioned trail there, the very first in the South East that took years of work and talks, everything else is illegal and highly Contentious. There are 3 land owners just at the tower all who have different opinions! Honestly the Hurtwood is a a force of good for Mtb in the hills, do t bite the hand that feeds...

I’m local and I’m very much of the “this land is our land” persuasion but I’ve seen the situation develop over recent years from sustainable to ridiculous.

Where once there were some relatively subtle trails snaking stealthily through the trees there is now, in some areas, an ugly, intrusive bike park. I’m also embarrassed by some of the behaviour I see from “fellow mountain bikers”.

God, I sound old. But it’s true.

I also agree on the motorway vs natural problem.  Why SH is great is the variety of trails and mix of surfaces and challenge.  I do feel the popularity of the bike park (and the influx of new riders raised on ‘park’) is that everything then has to follow the flow trail plus features formula.  That has its place in the park and even in SH with the likes of BKB but shouldn’t be the standard aim for trails everywhere, it just get boring.

I think this is going to become the minority view though.  Everyone sees to love R25 at Swinley, For me it’s like teenage sex, lasts 30 seconds and is ultimately unfulfilling.

For me it’s like teenage sex, lasts 30 seconds and is ultimately unfulfilling.

Maybe, but you don't compensate for unfulfilling sex by going out and ****ing someone else without their consent.

At Redlands they have actually started building trails in the firing range section....over about 20 years of riding there I think whoever patrols / manages that land have been pretty tolerant but I can see that coming to an end.

The irony is strong in that Instagram post about people being arrogant and entitled.

@crazy, Redlands always has a "clearance season" from the FC, but I feel something more drastic coming on especially as Bury wood side has had the hillside decimated by a quizillion loam lines...

Bedmaker +1

Given Surrey is a sea of blue on the election map I'm not sure these "for the many" suggestions are going anywhere fast...

I'm not sure evil land owners is the problem here.

If it was a free for all then who is to say mountain biking would thrive. Motocross cross bikes and 4wd could rip it to shreds. Or is it no rules for cyclists but there are rules if you have a petrol engine?

If it was managed as a community facility then that might mean some great maintained trails. But i can't see that being a free for all. An area might be set a side for a bike park. But other trails might need to be family friendly or horse friendly or set side for walking

I think the problem is the pressure on the areas suitable for mountain biking around the capital

For the moment responsible behaviour seems crucial. The bike park area at Woburn is under threat after People didn't respect it's closure over lock down

I remember the old north shore stuff off the Greensand Way between Holmbury and Leith.

Do you not mean the Ewok village on Pitch that got pulled down c 2004?