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Hiya,
I no longer live near Surrey Hills, but this is a big shame:
Personally I think we should be investing in the future not the past...
BR
JeZ
Conflicted, on the one hand ye I agree.
On the other we still use a metric-shit-ton of gas to heat homes, run power stations and provide feedstock for petrochemicals and polymers. Just because Peaslake stores keeps afloat selling cheese straws to mountain bikers on plastic ganrpoons arriving by gas guzzling T5's, doesn't mean we should just be "out of sight, out of mind" about where those resources come from.
If the fact we have to drill the Surrey Hills (which is already the 2nd largest onshore production area in Europe IIRC) prompts a few of those people into thinking "maybe £130/tank isn't the end of the impact my decision to drive a van everywhere has" then that's a good thing.
And the company doing the drilling isn't making a decision between drilling for gas and building a windfarm. So the decision to "we should be investing in the future not the past" is non sequitur. It's neither "we" (as a nation/government) or even really a decision.
And .......... be honest, the same people would be chaining themselves to the lorries tutting loudly if it was a windfarm being approved.
Great news, and fingers crossed the new mine goes ahead so we don't have to import coking fuel for steel manufacture. Can you imagine going a few decades back and telling miners that socialists would oppose them in the not too distant future!
I live in the area, there's nothing hilly about dunsfold, a lot of it is brownfield due to the old aerodrome, with a lot of housebuilding in the area. The gas extraction site is absolutely tiny. Dribbling on about AONB and Surrey hills is the usual emotive nonsense.
Whist it is a shame the solution here is changing the user not the supplier, so long as there is demand there will be production so looking to the future would be the govt saying no you can't use gas or non green electric not refusing planning as it would then simply be shipped around the world to supply demand which is worse.
For the most part too few people give a damn about offshore drilling or fracking in Lancashire because they don't have to see it, the way to change peoples minds is it make the alternative more appealing. Most who do only care about this because nimby and I think harnessing that is probably the only way to get most people to change their minds.
The UK will be hooked on Gas for decades yet!
Even if we go all out on wind, we will still need other sources for when it's not windy enough and the only non fossil fuel option (at any scale) is nuclear. Given, each nuclear plant takes decades to build and the fact we have more coming offline than in the pipeline, we're going backwards right now.
We're also phasing out gas central heating, replacing it with heat pumps which need electricity which comes from Gas turbines...
So basically, UK PLC will be running on Gas for decades to come.
Hiya,
My concern is damage to this area. If you had ever been to this area its quite amazing for cycling and general outdoor activities.
With respect to our energy problems they aren't going to get any better. In italy for instance during lockdown they took the bold step of migrating to air source heat pumps. The UK historically his massively under invested in energy production and has no real strategy to energy production. Ironically this was all forseen many engineers studying in the 80s and 90s knew our energy production would dwindle and we'd have to migrate from gas. Succesive governments left or right didn't make decisions and kicked the can. Now we have little choice to find new gas reserves and we'll all be paying more in the future years for lack of planning.
I hope the area isn't damaged too much by this and I hope this time we finally invest in alternatives to gas.
JeZ
'so we don’t have to import coking fuel for steel manufacture' - got some new for you 😉
The UK will be hooked on Gas for decades yet! - Better get your wallets warmed up then
Hiya,
The UK will be hooked on Gas for decades yet! – Better get your wallets warmed up then
Doesn't stop the migration and in fact should speed it up, when things get too expensive, then it's time for innovation. In the next twenty years we will probably have smaller nuclear plants and hopefully fusion will become a reality. If we do extract gas it should really be in the short term.
BR
JeZ
My concern is damage to this area. If you had ever been to this area its quite amazing for cycling and general outdoor activities.
Not to nitpick, it's at Dunsfold, not the Surrey Hills. Famous for the bomber base then top gear test track. There's pretty bits, but hardly AONB material.
The UK historically his massively under invested in energy production and has no real strategy to energy production. Ironically this was all forseen many engineers studying in the 80s and 90s knew our energy production would dwindle and we’d have to migrate from gas. Succesive governments left or right didn’t make decisions and kicked the can.
Ironically there is a plan, it's mostly wind with a gas backup. It's not proved to be a great plan, but then you can't predict the future.
There's always small modular reactor, fusion, tidal, hydrogen, etc etc, but if you pin your hopes on them the lights will be out for the next 20 years while you wait.
Doesn’t stop the migration and in fact should speed it up, when things get too expensive, then it’s time for innovation.
Go tell it to the ultimate biking vehicle thread, or the van threads where everyone's claiming that they have to spend £40k-£100k on a diesel van now because they don't ever want an electric one.
£40k would probably upgrade their house to be completely passive and off grid!
People make dumb decisions and elect governments to represent their views.
the company doing the drilling isn’t making a decision between drilling for gas and building a windfarm.
No, but the banks, financiers, investors and governments involved are. There is a whole ecosystem (!) of people making choices behind Gas Drilling Ltd. And, of course, Gas Drilling Ltd is just a company - if we collectively decide that it shouldn't be allowed to do what it wants, then it can find something else to do or go out of business.
if we collectively decide that it shouldn’t be allowed to do what it wants, then it can find something else to do or go out of business.
The way to make that decision is to stop buying their product. Good luck with that.
Or are you fine with shipping gas half way round the globe so long as it doesn't interrupt your view, because that's the choice really.
Gas drilling here or gas drilling there. Any suggestions the choice is gas or something better may as well be painted on the side of a bus.
£40k would probably upgrade their house to be completely passive and off grid
You'd be lucky, it would be many many multiples of that.
Heat pumps require rework of existing heating, insulation and still cost significantly more to run than a gas boiler.
I was quoted absolutely silly numbers to bring our 1930s 4 bed detached up to modern building regs. And thats a lot lower level than passive. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd be looking at £400k to get it passive and off grid. Not £40k
If the government wants to incentivise they need to make it so it is affordable to homeowners through proper grants rather than the recent failed schemes where if you could get someone they had just bumped up their price by the amount of the grant for more profit.....
I did remove the gas fire and range as I wanted to reduce our dependency, though with the cost of elec vs gas I'm not sure that was such a bright move
No, but the banks, financiers, investors and governments involved are. There is a whole ecosystem (!) of people making choices behind Gas Drilling Ltd.
A lot of the O&G industry is self financing, which is one reason it's a bit hollow when banks and investment funds announce they won't be investing in any new O&G projects.
And, of course, Gas Drilling Ltd is just a company – if we collectively decide that it shouldn’t be allowed to do what it wants, then it can find something else to do or go out of business.
Crack on with the campaigning comrade. The sooner the better.
The trouble is, very few people seem prepared to actually do anything more than tut loudly.
I was quoted absolutely silly numbers to bring our 1930s 4 bed detached up to modern building regs. And thats a lot lower level than passive. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’d be looking at £400k to get it passive and off grid. Not £40k
Perhaps, but I was thinking more realistically either:
£15k of solar,
£15k of batteries
A few £k on a reasonably practical level of insulation (£400k is more than the insured value of rebuilding an entire detached 4-bed which google suggests is £260k, even plus VAT and an allowance for post covid/Ukraine pricing £400k looks steep)
That's at least "inefficiently off grid" even if not meeting the definitions of "passive".
Or:
Invest £40k in renewable energy energy schemes / shares and heat the house (without gas) off the profits.
If the government wants to incentivise they need to make it so it is affordable to homeowners through proper grants rather than the recent failed schemes where if you could get someone they had just bumped up their price by the amount of the grant for more profit…..
In those schemes defense, we had our cavity walls done via one and it made a massive difference. And without the schemes the operators probably wouldn't have enough of a market to make it viable, so overpaying slightly via the energy levies and getting houses insulated "free" is probbaly better than doing nothing.
Personally it is all a mess. The governments lack of decisions on the long term like the French did many years ago will hamper us for years. It really doesn't matter because the cost will become so high that companies will discover new ways of doing things, regardless of government policies.
Ironically personally I can be self sufficient energy wise but it doesn't solve it for all because most cannot do what I can and really that is my point.
Ironically there is a plan, it’s mostly wind with a gas backup. It’s not proved to be a great plan, but then you can’t predict the future.
Actually this was predicted it is why the French moved their energy production to Nuclear and why the Italians moved domestic heating to air source heat pumps. When I studied electrical engineering in the 80's and 90s we were taught that fossil fuels would run out about 2030 so we should start planning well in the 90s. It didn't happen.
The banking markets will just in vest in what gives them the best returns and obviously now energy production is very lucrative as we can see by the energy companies profits. I'm pretty insulated from this because I knew this would happen ages ago, even before Russia invaded Ukraine...
JeZ
Actually this was predicted it is why the French moved their energy production to Nuclear and why the Italians moved domestic heating to air source heat pumps
True, but do you remember the issues with nuclear fuel in the 90's / 2000's with shipments of the stuff stuck in ports and reactors shutting down as a result? Hindsight is simultaneously rose tinted and 20/20. And unlike France we have (had) huge reserves of gas so it's not surprising the countries had differing policies.
Hiya,
And unlike France we have (had) huge reserves of gas so it’s not surprising the countries had differing policies.
Just because we have reserves, it doesn't mea we should use them. We kinda have to make the decision to migrate from fossil fuels. Don't get me started on how the current political party abandoned the green deal, because it cost them too much to make houses... It is all this short-shortsightedness that has got us in this mess. Also worked for the army so kinda also know the 6Ps...
JeZ
Just because we have reserves, it doesn’t mea we should use them. We kinda have to make the decision to migrate from fossil fuels. Don’t get me started on how the current political party abandoned the green deal, because it cost them too much to make houses… It is all this short-shortsightedness that has got us in this mess.
Indeed and it looks like we have to a very large extent.
Coal has gone from 67% of electrical generation in '91, to <2% (and depending on how things pan out was set to end completely in October next year). Gas produces only about 60% of the CO2eq/kWh of coal. And still only accounts for about 35% of electrical generation over the course of a year.
So on a per kWh basis the fossil fuel generated carbon footprint of the grid is down about 2/3rds (making the generalisation that the remainder is low enough carbon to be negligible).
Crack on with the campaigning comrade. The sooner the better.
You think that this is some kind of wacky idea - but it's nothing more than regulating and directing the energy market, exactly as happens now.
£400k is more than the insured value of rebuilding an entire detached 4-bed which google suggests is £260k, even plus VAT and an allowance for post covid/Ukraine pricing £400k looks steep)
Government needs to update those figures. Building costs are astronomical at the moment. My 7 x 5 kitchen extension cost £100k and that was the cheapest by a long shot, I had quotes of £120k just for the build, that doesn't actually include the kitchen, flooring finishing etc.... That leaves £160k to rebuild the remainder of a 4 bed if you were to use the 260k figure
Older houses needed massive work to bring up to spec, if we were to look at solar we would first need to factor in the cost of a new roof. Cavity wall insulation is a cheap fix for some, but a misery for others. South coast exposed location cavity insultation isn't recommended
air / ground source pumps just arent viable for ageing properties without massive subsidies
Given, each nuclear plant takes decades to build
They don't... Japan plans to do them in something like 3-4 years... and also build ones that can be used directly for smelting and ore refining.
Just because we have reserves, it doesn’t mea we should use them. We kinda have to make the decision to migrate from fossil fuels.
Moving from wood->coal->oil-gas is all in the right direction...
The more gas the less coal/oil... and as an added global benefit we are not importing gas that could be used in developing countries burning wood or dung.
Good news. We need to do a lot more of this. THe short answer is we are dependent on gas and until a practical way of storing power generated from renewables to cover off the ebbs and flows of both demand and production we will continue to be. At this stage no one knows how far away that is in reality.
DT78
I was quoted absolutely silly numbers to bring our 1930s 4 bed detached up to modern building regs. And thats a lot lower level than passive. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’d be looking at £400k to get it passive and off grid. Not £40k
If the government wants to incentivise they need to make it so it is affordable to homeowners through proper grants rather than the recent failed schemes where if you could get someone they had just bumped up their price by the amount of the grant for more profit…..
Building regs seem to be all set to even prevent doing what you can.
Short of knocking or 1920's place down it's made impossible to keep to regs and insulate.
I did look up at the time I had to replace the floor and joists and to insulate under our floor to the required thickness will block the airgap (or require losing a few inches of floor in those rooms and those rooms being higher than others)
In the end I just put as much underfloor insulation as I could and its made a HUGE difference.
agree, I ended up stripping the flooring out, fitting 40mm kingspan foaming then plying. It has definitely made a big difference but no where near regs. Only 3 more rooms to go.
The comment about passive offgrid house for £40k might have been a bit flippant, but to suggest its even possible on some of the old housing stock we have is a bit of a joke. You basically have to knock them down and start again.
I can't see how we can move away from gas in the short to mid term, and if that means sourcing it local I think that is much better than shipping it in. Not great for the environment but certainly better than buying from abroad, plus it gives us some energy security in these iffy times. Thats got to be an important consideration too
I notice they've started work on a new road layout/junction at Dunsfold next to the A281, is this where the site is or is it unrelated?
also FWIW, although the arguments about gas vs others are still relevant that article is from last summer.
The site itself is tiny, (about 2 football pitches), away from the AONB and hills themselves, and dwarfed by the housing development in terms of how the landscape will look as you view the downlands from the hills to the north. In pic below it is the white box and access road.
Not saying I don't agree that we have to work on renewables and more ecological generation, but the arguments about the impact on the landscape are pretty weak.
https://drillordrop.com/2022/10/12/surrey-villagers-continue-fight-against-gas-site/
