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Yes - @phil56 is right:
Rather than everyone lobbying Robbo for their preferred option let’s have some thought for the guy who makes this all possible.
last night the top As weren’t just handicapped in the race, we were handicapped out of
the race
I think it has improved since the last series though hasn't it?
I'll be laughing all day at the posts suggesting that you lot were not going particularly fast (as you ground me, and lots of others, into the virtual dust).
As said earlier, even though I love the extra dimension the sprints give, I really don’t think they help the pointy end get more overall points. I think the pace was slower last night, as some of us fancied some sprint points so the lead up to the sprints slows to 250W ish, and again, post sprint as we recover. On a TTT for example I’d be trying to push 290w+ for the entirety. It’s a proper Catch 22, and Phil played a blinder-but only came out with 12 points (largely down to the proximity of the Marina sprint to the last hill).
One thought is to give extra points for the actual finishing positions. I know it wouldn’t be ideal in a bunch sprint scenario but the last 2 races would have given Nixie and Phil a good haul for their efforts.
How about keeping it simple? Bonus points for the first 3 finishers over the line, prior to handicaps being awarded. That way it gives the fast A riders something to fight for. It's no worse than the sprint points.
I do feel for the pointy end riders to put in all that effort and then get nothing for it.
I do feel for the pointy end riders to put in all that effort and then get nothing for it.
TBH mate i think most are giving exactly the same effort, so you can't really use that.
You only have to look at how many are increasing their FTP in races or getting right on the cusp of it, setting HR max's etc...
So without being too cruel, they're not actually trying any harder for 0 points than the guy who finished last... they're just going quicker 🙂
Fair point Weeksy, but they always seem to drop a huge amount when the handicaps kick in, which isn't the case with us in the middle etc.
What is the incentive to win the race if you are going to get nothing to show for it, look at Phil last night, they should at least get something hence my suggestion above.
Fair point Weeksy, but they always seem to drop a huge amount when the handicaps kick in, which isn’t the case with us in the middle etc.
What is the incentive to win the race if you are going to get nothing to show for it, look at Phil last night, they should at least get something hence my suggestion above.
THat i agree with. The forumla isn't quite there yet.
That's not a criticsm for Robbo by the way, but if Phil and a few others are going balls to the wall week in week out and getting nothing... then the handicaps need reviewing for them.
To be honest Paino my slowing on the flat section once we caught nixie wasn't to do with saving myself for the sprints, it was ensuring I didn't need blue-lighting off my turbo.
I don't think I was towing everyone on my own for the first few minutes by any stretch so I'd like to think everyone else was wondering if that was laboured breathing or an actual heart attack by the time we reeled him in.
From what I recall of the gaps we'd put 1.30 into DrP by the bottom of the hill but it didn't stretch out massively from there, in practice I know I dug too deep too early and I did pop with 1k to go but I'd guess most of us in that group were in the same boat. As it was i clocked about 400 over the hill into the flat, 305 average till I popped then about 200 over the final 3min.
I was amazed not to get spat out on the viaduct, I just had nothing more to put in than I already was by that point. That everyone didn't leave me behind makes me think not so much we were going slowly but that we just didn't have the numbers to really pull away and I think we'd all possibly over reached a bit early on. It's a bit tortoise and the hare I guess, I think if we'd been 30seconds slower over the first 5k we'd have been 30 plus seconds quicker over all. I know I would.
Phil last night, they should at least get something
He gets pride and bragging rights. I think that's more important than points.
The formula isn’t quite there yet.
It's never going to be perfect and the way it is currently is plenty good enough for keeping the series interesting. I was simply pointing out the cruel and heartless injustice of the current handicap system (!), not suggesting there's any need to make changes.
A couple of posts suggest the pace on the front wasn’t that fast (!) but I promise at the end I had absolutely nothing left, I couldn’t have gone a second faster
Didn't think you would have. The sprint and climb was a great attack. I was meaning more in the flat middle of the race. Before the attack between the sprints I was cruising at just over 200W for a while (being lazy). The whole group was moving at around 3.7wpkg AVG.
Phil last night, they should at least get something
He got some pay back as well for the trick I pulled in Paris in series 1.
Right...so everyone is happy then...keep it as is! 😉
Right…so everyone is happy then
That can't be right. You mustn't be paying attention.
He got some pay back as well for the trick I pulled in Paris in series 1.
But you apologised for that already.
Considering the effort being put in at the front on that first climb and descent @TPbiker it’s really not surprising that you were left adrift – that’s not a course that’s going to suit you no matter what the start procedure is.
Sorry but I have to disagree. There have been 7 races started as rollimg starts on flat, rolling and hilly courses so far. In every one of those I've managed to keep up with the likes of paino, dangeourb, woodster etc. Do we honestly think that it's a coincidence that the first time we try a different start is the first time the course doesn't suit me? If anything it would suit me more as it had 2 decent climbs in it.
Fact is that it wasn't just the power houses who got away from me at the start. Both savoyad and woodster were 8 seconds ahead of me by the start of the climb, and as far as I'm aware neither of those guys is pumping out 320 watts ftp
However agree it's robbo's series and he can run it as he sees fit. If folks think that yesterdays start is the way to go then it won't stop me from racing, but I don't think we should pretend it won't make a difference to some folks races (Not just mine, I may be at front next time hopefully!)
Rather than everyone lobbying Robbo for their preferred option let’s have some thought for the guy who makes this all possible.
100% agree @phil56. Well said. Also well done on the win and a perfectly timed attack.
Can't believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun? - type 2 fun admittedly but fun nevertheless. I don't really care where I finish on the road and certainly don't have the mental capacity or the will to start trying to calculate all the permutations surrounding the handicapping system and those racing alongside me. All I care about is that I did the best I could on the day.
So for my part I'll go with whatever @robbo1234biking decides and thank my lucky stars that he is generous enough with his time to organise this in the first place. Thoroughly enjoyed the last series and thoroughly enjoying this one. Cheers Robbo.
And don't worry about the A riders - we've got the GC to fight over for bragging rights 🙂.
Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun?
I've never even checked my handicap. I just race the guys near me on the roads
So for my part I’ll go with whatever @robbo1234biking decides
So long as it's not 20burpees when the timer hits zero then on your bike and go I third that.
it's all bants though innit? 😃 Like dissecting a 5-a-side match in the pub afterwards! It's part of the fun/appeal... compared to a normal Zwift race where you turn up, race some randoms, and probably never see/interact with them again in any way!Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.
Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun?
Been said many times on this thread!
I turn up, do my best to keep up and try to beat those I know that should be around my level, die on my arse and then have a laugh with everyone on here afterwards, some I win, some I lose. Like Zilog says the beauty of this series is having the banter afterwards, I look forward to that more than the race.
Long may it continue and not get bogged down in trying to reach Utopia.
Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this
I don't think anyone is taking it overly seriously are they? It's a thread to discuss the race series, and we are discussing the change to the start procedure, and it's pros and cons. No different than if we were in a footy league and we were discussing something like the merits of allowing rolling subs
No-one has said they aren't going to race if it changes, or that they will enjoy the racing any more or less. I also think everyone agrees that it's entirely up to robbo what he wants to do.
Right - Le Mans style starts it is then - you start 5 m from the bike, run up to it and get on. This will be an advantage for people wearing flats and for those in heels - good luck!
5m in front or behind?
If it's from the side, I'll be in the dining room and have to go through the kitchen, out the door and into the garage
discussing something like the merits of allowing rolling subs
Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?
Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.
it’s all bants though innit? 😃
Well that and cycleogical warfare.
Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?
Better than asking someone else's I imagine.
For those wanting to increase their fitness, just putting it out that there is a Sunday Hills ride again this week, 8am start, Dust in the Wind. It would be good to get large numbers again this week for general banter and drafting!
If you are interested, details are on the Meetup thread. #shamelessplug
Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?
Interesting concept! Imagine how much better you'd get on if could swap riders throughout the race.
Do you think if all the cat c and d riders rode in a relay, one mile each, they could beat Phil or Nixie over the course of a race? No-one gets any draft, but they would of course be able to absolutely bury themselves as only riding a mile..
Robbo, you reckon you could somehow organise that for us..😉😁
Robbo, you reckon you could somehow organise that for us..😉😁
Relay laps of volcano...
D& c riders 1 lap each
B & a riders 2 consecutive ones
Split into a few small teams
All on TT bikes to keep it from just being a case of finding a quick wheel
Might work for a giggle at some point.
It will just be like sports day - there is always one kid day dreaming when it is their turn and the rest of the team are shouting at them to go!
there is always one kid day dreaming when it is their turn and the rest of the team are shouting at them to go!
You mean like Zilog in last weeks TTT?!!
Wow just back from a long day dog walking, long story but got lost and ended up walking 18 miles instead of 8, but surprised still to see so much debate still of the starting method.
Thought it was already decided to do a rolling start for the longer lead in flatter rides like next week and despite starting right at the back this week I would say not ideal for me but by no means a game changer. Just need to prepared to go mega deep a bit longer at the start but that not exactly anything new for Zwift races.
It does seem a shame that the fastest and lightest bs seem able to stick with the a guys pretty regularly over any type of terrain so regardless of their performance. The faster bs (a few seem closer to the cat As than than the slower bs) or an over performing c putting in a mega performance and clinging on over a big proportion of a race, are able to keep a small enough gap that handicap sees them placed top of the pile. Racing within groups of cats at staggered start times would be a truer test, so riders can’t jump on for a tow and allow the handicap to work more in line with the intended mathematical equations but isn’t obviously as social.
I feel like both my hips joints, knee and groin are all knackered so I’m now going to concern myself with trying to loosen them up overnight to enjoy a steady ride tomorrow.
groin are all knackered so I’m now going to concern myself with trying to loosen them up overnight
We did not need that info
Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.
It's just banter surely - we all appreciate the effort that goes into setting it up and running it, without that we are relegated to the anonymity of zwift races again. Lots of discussion means riders are animated by it, rather than taking it seriously results-wise.
That being said.. I'm going to tentatively and softly bang my drum for a wavy start again ! Robbo has done all the hard work to make individual time penalties, I'm suggesting grouping those penalties into waves - say 5, publish the list of who is in what wave, and what time they go off at in good time.
Wave 1 goes when the meetup starts, Wave 2 some N secs later etc. It is up to you to wait for your start wave. If you don't wait and you cheat off the line, I don't care, because I'm doing it for the fun, and the racing of whats nearby rather than the accuracy of the final result, so boo to you. Waiting is not rocket science.
This wavy start means that you are more likely to blob up with your wave riders at the start, and try and stay ahead of the wave behind. This avoids slower less twitchy-start riders being on their own from the go, which is pretty miserable.
If you have something more to give, you can lead your wave, disappear into the sunset, or you can go with a faster group as they come through. Wave times should be calculated so that waves meet at 90% distance perhaps, rather than finish line, so that everyone gets the chance to draft the faster waves.
It means that everyone is more likely to see everyone else at some point, rather than just on the start line.
The results are the finish line order, (if anyone actually truly cares) although I don't know how easy that is for Robbo to get versus what currently happens. I'm hoping thats easier than time based calculations after the race. It's less precise than individual time penalties, but I suspect it may be more fun in practice.
Yes, this means that the faster riders are more likely to win the league. That seems legit to me, I'm more interested in my relative placing and having a competitive race.
Also, thanks Robbo.
Racing within groups of cats at staggered start times would be a truer test, so riders can’t jump on for a tow
The ability to get a tow makes the whole race interesting. If we just want to have a test of who's the fastest we may as well just have a tt. As a man who came top 3 in both GC and handicap last series by wheel sucking my way round 6 races, I would obviously say that however..
The ability to get a tow makes the whole race interesting. If we just want to have a test of who’s the fastest we may as well just have a tt
I'd agree with you on that.
I've opinions on the choice of blobbing up or riding from the go but the reality is what I'd like and why comes a distant second what's best for Robbo.
Right – Le Mans style starts it is then – you start 5 m from the bike, run up to it and get on. This will be an advantage for people wearing flats and for those in heels – good luck!
Maybe add in 30 secs of spins on the spot before running and trying to get on the bike?
#tpbiker and #dangerbrain, I really meant drafting from the hard work of an higher cat rider, which we’ve all done of course but seems a bit unfair for these guys to tow people around for them to finish closely behind on time but way ahead after handicap.
Nowt wrong with forming up and drafting along with the same cat. If each cat road together the handicap algorithm would work for cat a as well as all others. I appreciate it loses something socially effectively splitting into smaller groups rather than a free for all but maybe something to bear in mind if the number of riders, particularly As increases over time.
If each cat road together the handicap algorithm would work for cat a as well as all others.
Unfortunately the handicap system massively favours those that are good enough to just hang on to the group the faster guys are in and can draft their way round. Separating us into cats on the road won't change that. Remember I'm the same cat as Phil, yet he has to give up 2-3 min every race to me on handicap. Whilst he's a stronger rider, and in a tt he may put that time into me, in the races he won't (other than last night when I missed his group) . Using the same handicaps, but splitting everyone into different cats, id still have got far more points than him last season.
You could of course completely remove handicaps, but then that completely misses the point of the series in my opinion
I personally think it works just fine as is. The best guys win the races and compete for the GC, the not so good guys that put in just as much effort get to compete for the handicap spots.
I think we’re all in agreement that the series Robbo created is ace and fun in a type 2 kind of way. I’m even enjoying the 13 pages of banter and it’s only race 2! @Robbo1234biking Happy to make a donation to your chosen charity again if you want to post a link.
If people want to donate then happy to suggest a charity but dont want that to be an expectation of the races.
Handicaps for this week are live. No one should be completing this one in under an hour.
Apologies if I’ve missed it, but what’s the course for Tuesday?
Just looked at the handicaps and wanted to check they were correct, Robbo it has you and Ivan ahead of me and Kirky the same. I’m sure there used to be a minute or so difference? (Me giving you guys time not the other way around)
My current FTP is 261 and 69kgs.
Not sure if it’s pan flat then that moves you guys up?
From page 1
Race 3 – 17th November – Greater London Flat (3 laps)
40.8km distance, 164m of climbing
Something a little flatter but also a little longer. Fast speeds should mean that this just goes over the hour mark. 1 place to pick up sprint points.
No one should be completing this one in under an hour.
Handicap time or moving time?
Moving time - if you and Phil get a good group you might keep up 40kph but it will be close. Sounds like you are taking that as a challenge!
W00dster - I have a high ftp and high mass. This route is flat so in theory the weight shouldn’t matter and my power should allow me to stay up with some faster guys - we will see though!
Sounds like you are taking that as a challenge!
🙂 Sounds like a challenge. Done 3 laps in 53 minutes before and 2 in 38. Should be possible in under the hour as long as there are 3 or 4 working.
Is that 3 laps including the 7k lead in though?
First race I'll probably be missing unfortunately
Mojo has well and truly been lost on bike recently, so much so that last couple of races I've just not really looked forward to, they've felt like a chore which they shouldn't be. I think I need to actually ride my bike outside for a change rather than spend all my time on turbo.
Coupled with my body causing me a few issues I reckon taking a week or 3 off ain't a bad idea. Although I may have to force myself back for the summit finish race, whenever that is.
Bugger, just got an ftp increase to 311 and I think DQ'd from the last race.
On the bright side i'm a mere 95kg now
thats a big FTP jump @jamesoz I have updated your handicap for you. You are showing as not coming on Tuesday - is that right? If not let me know and I will resend invite!
@tpbiker - summit finish is the final race. Ill keep you on the invites each week in case you change your mind or get your mojo back.
thats a big FTP jump @jamesoz I have updated your handicap for you. You are showing as not coming on Tuesday – is that right? If not let me know and I will resend invite!
Yeah, I was surprised but I averaged too much up the Alpe apparently.
Another invite would be great thanks, not sure why they keep showing as not going. Maybe it's my subconscious.
Yeah, I was surprised but I averaged too much up the Alpe apparently
Break the hour??
I got the badge, so I guess so.
3.33wkg which I guess is why I was DQ'd.
Not wanting to start a big debate but how are we starting on Tuesday ?
Not wanting to start a big debate but how are we starting on Tuesday ?
Now you've done it! 😜😜
Not wanting to start a big debate but how are we starting on Tuesday ?
Hard and fast 😜.
Not wanting to start a big debate but how are we starting on Tuesday ?
Alphabetical order on forum username...everyone starts changing there username!
Didn’t know it was an ITT😜
Well I got reinstated, now classified C nearly B apparently. I had now idea there was such a thing, sort of C+, reminds me of school. Looking forward to having my arse handed to me on tuesday, I hate flat races.
I hate flat races
Me too. It's very hard to drop people with similar or more power but a bit more mass. The lead in climb is going to be crazy, as are the 3 times through the underpass.
I love flat races, but due to the evening race times i'm calling it a day on the series. Just sort of breaks into family time and 'me' time so will ride in the daytime i'm sorry to say.
I'll certainly be keeping an eye on the thread and results though 😀
The lead in climb is going to be crazy, as are the 3 times through the underpass.
yeh about that...would appear for a group meet-up you spawn on the Mall...will leave race as it is as the intention is for 40 flat km to add a bit of endurance to the proceedings but we will likely do 3.5 laps instead of the lead plus 3 laps. Wont change too much though - just look out for the blue banner/distance countdown for the finish.
That'll deffo suit the power/heavy guys !
Gah!
oh well.
you're gonna have to find a watt bomb out of the underpass Nixie.... then through the 3% drag afterwards too.
Robbo... My FTP is now 270..
Sorry cos you've made the handicaps already.. TBH i THINK it WAS 269, so prob no major change if you just left it i guess?
DrP
DrP - 1 W won’t make a difference - the times are rounded so the few seconds difference won’t matter I don’t think. Is that 1W with your new power meter? 😉
I feel tomorrow's route will be hard work for me. The flat section of last week's was really hard going....trying my hardest & managing to make no ground whatsoever to the bloke up the road 🙂
I went on the turbo on Saturday & tried to spend the time working on getting my cadence up on the flat - I did appear to get a bit more power out (maybe) by spinning faster - it's just reminding my legs to get on with it.
It'll be good to do a slightly longer distance & see what happens! Just need to check that Bake Off is set to record...
Enjoy folks but I'm out for this week, going to do what I should have done when the lurgy first appeared a few weeks ago and take a week off rather than taking the if I can walk I can race* approach.
The flat section of last week’s was really hard going….trying my hardest & managing to make no ground whatsoever to the bloke up the road
Flat races are just about not letting that bloke get up the road in the first place.
The mixed cats format in Robbo's Races really suits hangers-on on the flat, makes it very hard work to be the bloke up the road trying to stay ahead of a bunch.
Is that 1W with your new power meter?
Heck yeah!!!
Money well spent I say!!!!
;-D
DrP
you’re gonna have to find a watt bomb out of the underpass Nixie
Sadly all out of those at the moment 😅. The current stock seem to blow up prematurely if used.
Having rotated out of the ZRL for a week - I'm in.
Looking forward to it, although my trainer which has decided not to power on..
dangeourbrain
Flat races are just about not letting that bloke get up the road in the first place.
It's not like I haven't tried that 😉
I found it interesting riding 'on my own' on Zwift this Saturday just gone.
I was starting to get the impression from riding in this race series or on the Sunday hills etc. that I was massively unfit & slow on the bike etc. and that this was all a bit futile as it seems like such a long way to the next person up the road in terms of required fitness gains.
But, with >9000 other Zwifters I was hardly overtaken. Perhaps once every 10 minutes or so, with a couple of groups flying past in a draft.
I guess a normal Zwift ride encompasses a much larger section of the cycling world & it made me feel a bit less unfit & useless than I have been feeling! I'm sure that'll change tomorrow 🙂
@stumpy01 with the free ride option on Zwift you're going to get a lot of people who are casual riders not racers, also people doing recovery rides etc or just not going balls out for whatever reason - whereas in any race EVERYONE is going to be giving it 100%, so you can't really compare the two. Also there are some VERY fast riders at the sharp end of the STW crew... I think most of us feel pretty unfit compared to them 🤣
yes and they aren't going hell for leather trying to beat each there. its all about perspective.
anytime I get carried away and feel I've done a section particularly rapid or done really well in a race. I just take a quick check on strava and find there's a few hundred thousand n front of me.
Yeh outside of the STW Zwift World things are probably closer to real lift distribution. Some of our group rides may be a bit quick as well I think sometimes.
I emptied myself in the cycling weekly chase this weekend, my FTP has gone up to 254 Robbo. Not sure that makes a huge difference in my handicap.
As usual, it's going to be a case of trying to hang on to whoever I can hold onto for an hour...
Well i may now make an enforced comeback due to my shock being dead on the G-160. Shortest retirement ever.