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Realistically I think there's almost two races going on simultaneously, the first is the "on the road" race which feels more relevant in the heat of the moment and the second is the actual timed results taking into account the handicaps and slight time differences.
I know myself that the tendency is to try and work with your group but then win the sprint for the best placing but for the points system it's more in-depth then that although it's difficult to keep on top of the various handicaps etc.
It really is a bit of a failing by zwift that you can't organise proper races for select participants. It must be a 5 min configuration for then to do it given the race functionality is already there so can't see what the motivation is to not do it.
Realistically I think there’s almost two races going on simultaneously,
Think you've nailed it there. I'm gunning for the on the road wins and hopefully picking enough sprint points to do 'ok' overall. But the handicap win is not going to happen, if it did the handicap has failed (imo). I'm happy to see the altered handicap appears to have slightly leveled the field from series one though (I.e. appearing higher up the results for the effort expended 😜).
Realistically I think there’s almost two races going on simultaneously, the first is the “on the road” race which feels more relevant in the heat of the moment and the second is the actual timed results taking into account the handicaps and slight time differences.
I know myself that the tendency is to try and work with your group but then win the sprint for the best placing but for the points system it’s more in-depth then that although it’s difficult to keep on top of the various handicaps etc.
The handicap aspect is of no relevance to me at all, doesn't enter into my head in the slightest.
I've got 5-6 racers who are 'targets' in races, the rest doesn't come into it. Sadly due to missing the start i lost several of them this week... but ended up right in the melting pot at the end of lap 2.... just lost it on the climb on 3.
Am I wrong in thinking that times of the people you are riding with give you an indication that although you’re together on the road there can be a time gap between you. For instance yesterday I was riding a lot of the time with J Osborn and T Ward (thanks guys and sorry I was a sleeping partner) and when I was with T Ward he was at – 2 secs to me although we were together so it was apparent that even if I had managed to stay with him I was never going to win the sprint.
I did wonder that when we were together as well; at least we know why now. I have just been reading up on drafting, it's very important it seems! I had been just riding at a pretty consistent wattage whether I'm in the draft, out of the draft (not that I knew if I was in or out lol) or going up hill. I have a lot to learn, which hopefully I will with these races. I've not done any road riding (and only a couple of Zwift races) so didn't realise that there are so many things to look out for and the tactics involved.
Hi, new to Zwift but am a long time reader of STW rather than posting much...
I'd like to join the races please, great shout and thanks for organising.
Name: Rad Charlie
(name Involved lots of crashing my first year at the Mega, never lived it down and has since stuck like glue)
Cheers!
Handicaps are now live for the second race. There is actually less elevation in this race than last week but the first hill will be tough out of the blocks and if you miss the cut you could lose minutes on your rivals. Would suggest 120% effort and hope to rest on the downhill the other side.
This is the actual elevation profile:
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/HkSwCYWg/Roule-Ma-Poule-Elevation.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/HkSwCYWg/Roule-Ma-Poule-Elevation.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
This shows the sprint location:
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/1z2DfvN7/Race-2-Profile.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/1z2DfvN7/Race-2-Profile.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
2 chances to pick up some bonus points this week although we only go through them once so you don't get an opportunity to improve! IF you miss your group on the start this could be a valid place to make up some points.
1 point will be a bonus
I did wonder why people had said it was going to be hard going - your original profile shows us starting at the top of the hill, which, as I'm sure many of us "rouleurs" would agree, is a much better option!
I might cruise up the climb and try and nail the sprints...
Am I wrong in thinking that times of the people you are riding with give you an indication that although you’re together on the road there can be a time gap between you. For instance yesterday I was riding a lot of the time with J Osborn and T Ward (thanks guys and sorry I was a sleeping partner) and when I was with T Ward he was at – 2 secs to me although we were together so it was apparent that even if I had managed to stay with him I was never going to win the sprint.
I did wonder that when we were together as well; at least we know why now. I have just been reading up on drafting, it’s very important it seems! I had been just riding at a pretty consistent wattage whether I’m in the draft, out of the draft (not that I knew if I was in or out lol) or going up hill. I have a lot to learn, which hopefully I will with these races. I’ve not done any road riding (and only a couple of Zwift races) so didn’t realise that there are so many things to look out for and the tactics involved.
I do exactly the same, just go at the pace I want to, struggle to adjust my pace to ride with others in Zwift, fine in real life though.
I slowed down to fall in with you guys and as with every time I do that I fell off the back, took a lot of effort to catch back up, was fun.
Looking forward to Tuesdays race.
Yeh I couldn’t find a course profile that included the lead in but created my own this week!
Warm up is crucial this week. There really is no time to settle on this route.
@cbott welcome, some new competition at the front.
I'm not familiar with this route at all. Am I right in thinking we do the same climb twice, once straight out the gate, and once at the end?
If that's the case then I'm assuming we'll be congregating behind robbo on the climb itself, which will make things interesting I expect.
Yes pretty much that. It's all going to get a bit crazy with the go on an incline.
Some of us heavier units are going to suffer on the start and finish this week, one for the lighter riders to gain an advantage!
That first hill is really going to break everything up and it may take some effort to get into a drafting group once over the top.
I have to hope that all my usual C rivals are big guys too 🤣🤣
Tough to know how to approach this week. Run for time or go for the sprint bonuses.
Yeh we are going to have to form up pretty quick. The first slopes are a low gradient but need everyone to get on the beacon quickly.
Would it be beneficial to get some SPD road shoes and pedals? I'm just using flats and some old 5:10's at the mo.
thoughts are 'maybe' but we're not talking the difference between 200w and putting out 300w.. I'd say a couple, 5w maybe.. if you get the benefits. Personally i didn't find any benefit myself and run flats and FiveTen.
I've only ever used MTB SPD pedals as that's all I have, plus all I'm used to.
I don't think I'd like to try some of the sprints on flats...I'd probably fall off 🤣
To protect my ankle at the moment I’m using 4 season walking boots with flats. Not a good look, strictly no entry policy in operation when on the turbo.
I can barely imagine how sweaty your feet must get "turboing" in those!
I’ve only ever used MTB SPD pedals as that’s all I have, plus all I’m used to.
I don’t think I’d like to try some of the sprints on flats…I’d probably fall off 🤣
Flats and 5:10's is all I am used to, so maybe I'll just keep them as they are. I am probably more limited in sprints by the turbo stability, it does get a side to side rock on.
Nixie did the lead in at a time of 5min 36 with an average power of 386w, which is a massive massive figure. His 3rd climb up was a moderate 364w which gives a time jut over 6 mins for the climb.
Another STWer did 218w which gives a time of 8mins 04... So the differential is pretty much MASSIVE depending on your weight and power.
Doing your homework then weeksy :-). I don’t think I have ever done the climb where I have really attacked it let alone twice so will see how it goes!
Nixie did the lead in at a time of 5min 36 with an average power of 386w
Converting this into W/KG and then checking what average power I'll need to stay with Nixie - answer is 437!!
Good job I can fall back on a handicap.....oh, maybe not!
Looking at those handicaps I reckon I could be within sight of Phil if I don't kill myself (I'm commonly my own worst enemy on these things).15 seconds sounds a tight margin but the hilltop finish will tend to work better for me so long as I can hold onto him on the flat. 100m over 2k isn't exactly a huge climb though and with no really nasty ramps, holding a wheel up there shouldn't be too hard, I'm glad I've got the few seconds on him as I really can't see me dropping Phil on that and staying away.
I can't see me (nor Phil for that matter) finishing within 15 seconds of nixie though based on those numbers weeksy.
If i'm honest with y'all, i'm debating whether i race tomorrow or tow my buddy up and see if we can get him a point or 2... bit of a domestique role so to speak. I'm not the heaviest in the series, but i think in a power/weight and 'form' context i'm arguably the worst climber out there for where i 'should' be .
I can see the sprints being hotly contested a bit further back tomorrow weeksy and off the back of that you might be pleasantly surprised after too many folks bury themselves chasing the sprints because "oh no, hills".
I know for me I'd like to be chasing the sprints but it's a clear choice of going for the finish and trying to hold a few quick wheels all the way or sitting in comfortably with the next bunch and looking for a drag into the sprints.
The most likely outcome mind is I get into a quicker group from the off, and have to work to stay in, try for the sprints but partially cooked and probably on my own so no wheels to pull me through, toast my self for 0 sprint points and get marooned somewhere off the back of the As in front of the faster B group then get swallowed a few hundred m from the line.
Hopefully this week I'll remember to start sprinting earlier. With the in game delay and my wind up time, I'm not going full tilt until near the finish. I think my last lap sprint was my fastest last week as I'd remembered to start earlier.
Does everyone leave the default delay of 4 secs and is there any reason not to set it shorter or to zero?
Does everyone leave the default delay of 4 secs and is there any reason not to set it shorter or to zero?
You can change that?
I think you can have instant or 3 second average within Zwift. Doesn't affect what it does - just what you see. Instant is too jagged for me so I prefer an average.
One thing the handicap doesn't take into account is V02 max capability (nor could I ever predict this). This is why I can tend to perform above my capabilities on short sharp hills as I can do high watts for 1-2mins (not the same as being good in sprints) such as on the short drag on the TTT last week. Anything longer and although I can drop just below FTP I am not as good as others.
But some of us might be able to 110% for 2 mins whilst others can hit 130% FTP for the same amount of time.
I'm assuming those numbers were from the oh crit smash race weeksey. I won't be replicating that tomorrow, I'll be surprised if I get close to the third time's power. The first climb also involved lots of drafting as the field was big. Painful race that one.
I’m assuming those numbers were from the oh crit smash race weeksey
Yes sir.. But i only picked you as you had the fastest time. The actual result and numbers were not important, just an indication really.
I just looked on the App and its delay of power displayed, so wouldn't have an effect.
The option is 3 sec or instant display.
Robbo, Zwift is telling me my new FTP is 318. Probably a nail in my coffin for this week.
Top stalking @weeksy. This hill is an enigma - a lot of us have ridden it because it's actually also the start of "ven-top" but no reliable profiles exist because it's not treated as a KOM in zwift (why not "reverse petit kom"?), ridden as part of ventop even the segment doesn't register on strava (because of the junction where the "finish line" is officially just after the left turn which ven-top doesn't take...) and any rides with the whole of ventoux ahead are presumably at a pretty low intensity compared to tomorrow. That's certainly the case for me anyway. I've ridden it. But I know/remember nothing about it and @nixie's smash crit (which he's now disowning) is the only time I've noticed someone racing it.
@dangeourbrain if that's your race plan, you should obviously just tow some B's around and target the sprints from within their blob. (I'm always happy to provide more self-serving suggestions if anyone else wants one).
As you can imagine, i've not ridden it, or Ventop 😀
I’m pretty new to Zwift racing so my game plan will be to go as fast as I can without throwing up or blowing up.
Anything positive that happens will be a bonus !
@rmprest @cbott @doordonot for info we run a rolling start so once the timer reaches zero we congregate on the ride leader (nice big gold crest thing above my head) as soon as everyone is in a tightish blob I start the race by saying go go go. Ill remind in advance of the race tomorrow night as well
Robbo. Due to some people getting caught out with that process, myself last week for example due to lack of comms i didn't see your message at all and got completely blown out the back. Wouldn't it be easier to just accept where we 'land' and go from the 0.00 countdown ? Some days we'll win, some days we'll lose out a bit, but it does mean no-one loses out so massively because of comms/issues etc.
go as fast as I can without throwing up
'Much to learn you sill have young @rmprest'
Lesson 1 - throwing up without slowing down
What are other peoples opinions? It would save me the stress of managing the start. Would be useful if I could do a poll on the forum? Anyone got an easy way to implement a poll? I am not precious about it either way. The time differences at the start seem to account for the distance difference anyway (which weren’t there in the first race or two of the first series)
Nose where its not wanted and all but
Wouldn’t it be easier to just accept where we ‘land’ and go from the 0.00 countdown ? Some days we’ll win, some days we’ll lose out a bit,
In theory the slightly varying finish lines address this, if you start 50m back your blue banner is 50m earlier anyway.
What are other peoples opinions? It would save me the stress of managing the start. Would be useful if I could do a poll on the forum?
Honest opinion: it's your baby and you can't please everyone, do what works best for you and the rest of us can put up or pony up. It's all for fun anyhow.
Assuming the 'road' and 'finish' then sorts things out, it's simply down to a 'grouping' thing isn't it. Some days you'll get your favoured riding draft mates near you, sometimes not... but the good thing as i see it, you don't have anyone floundering as we often see. It all seems a bit frantic...
"ok, lets got 150w.... ooooh i'm dropping back in the group....200w..... oooh here's Robo closing, 250w.. oh he's not saying it yet... 150.....damn he's pulling away, 300w.... oh i've passed them all, 100w,..... oh i've fallen off the back.... go go....400w !!! "
I'm really grateful you've taken the time to set this up - so would say any changes would have to be suggested to create less work for you, rather than more.
As a complete novice to meet ups, it appears we all start at the same time. If that's the case, is it not easier to just to say everybody starts at 200w (for example) for the first two minutes to allow us to move to/sit where we want in the group, and then at two minutes precisely we go?
Anyone who goes off earlier than that earns some kind of special prize...
It could be worth trying for one week.
Honest opinion: it’s your baby and you can’t please everyone, do what works best for you and the rest of us can put up or pony up. It’s all for fun anyhow.
This.
“ok, lets got 150w…. ooooh i’m dropping back in the group….200w….. oooh here’s Robo closing, 250w.. oh he’s not saying it yet… 150…..damn he’s pulling away, 300w…. oh i’ve passed them all, 100w,….. oh i’ve fallen off the back…. go go….400w !!! ”
Every zwift ride ever.
Agree we should at least try race begins at zero. Everyone just goes. It's by far the simplest way - think we would need to do it for a block of races and then assess, as each start prob will disadvantage a handful of riders, but it likely evens out as said.
Going from 0 probably makes more sense, and less hassle for you Robbo? We could try it tomorrow if you want. We're all just in it for "fun" so if this makes it handier for you and prob everyone else then let's do it.
I'd say give it a go starting at zero, must be easier than herding the STW cats!
As one of the few cat D riders in the group I don't have much to offer on the sharp end of racing.
Just going from the beginning would probably help me not get carried away trying to stick with a cat B group when in all likely hood I'm going to get spat out of the C group at some point...
Honest opinion: it’s your baby and you can’t please everyone, do what works best for you and the rest of us can put up or pony up. It’s all for fun anyhow.
This too.
It's not like we are next to the people we want to be with the current start arrangement anyway, no one knows when Robbo will say go and I'm usually pogo-ing all over the place before sprinting like a total loon! It's only after the first 500m that I know if I need to push more to catch other riders or not.
Regarding the hill, I've had both good days and bad days on that section, it's a tough start no doubt but it will all come down to which legs I arrive with on the day. Attack it and hope you have enough breath left to hold on for the flat afterwards.
Also, it probably makes MORE sense to just race from the ZERO.. and use the 'cross line' times... one of the races we did, I crossed just behind someone, but my time was LESS that theirs, because I must have started a bit further back at the start. i.e. i had an unfair advantage?
It's worth actually looking into, TBH... like.. do we all ACTUALLY have the exact same finish line position?
I bet we don't....
DrP
It’s worth actually looking into, TBH… like.. do we all ACTUALLY have the exact same finish line position?
I bet we don’t….
DrP
Due to the 'race' being a meetup, there's very little in the options for setting anything up sadly.
I guess.. I just wonder why I can be sat next to someone, and they cross the line ahead of me, but I was 'quicker' according to the times. It is likely that's the effect of starting further up/down the field at the meetup start?
I dunno
DrP
The only issue I have with this, is that tomorrow I was hoping some of that initial hill would be taken at a sedate pace whilst the group sorts itself out, then I wouldn't have to do it all at a crazy pace... 😉
I guess.. I just wonder why I can be sat next to someone, and they cross the line ahead of me, but I was ‘quicker’ according to the times. It is likely that’s the effect of starting further up/down the field at the meetup start?
I dunno
DrP
you don't cross the line ahead of them. The blue banner is exact for your avatar so if they started 50m behind you their blue banner is 50m before yours, sure they cross your banner a few m behind you but they already finished the distance and can't understand why you're still sprinting 40m down tbf road.
Is what goes screwy with the time gaps too, it's why you call be ahead of someone on the road who is 3 seconds ahead on the sidebar.
(is also rubbish for late start as it makes you do the full distance even though you missed the first half hour)
you don’t cross the line ahead of them. The blue banner is exact for your avatar so if they started 50m behind you their blue banner is 50m before yours
ergo, starting the race from 'where you start' seems fairer, no..? because otherwise I may have 50m LESS to ride than you, if i start at the back of the lineup, but manage to get at the front of the bunch before the 'go'...
Or am i confusing myself?
DrP
I think go from zero is worth trying.
Robbo’s task of getting us together at a rolling start is harder than herding cats. And on a longish hill we’ll quickly be sorted in order of W/kg rather than being in a good draft.
But whatever Robbo chooses is good with me.
@DrP everyone travels the same difference so by trying to neutralise the start we are somewhat negating it i.e. you travel the same distance as me but the first 50m are slow for you but the first 100m are slow for me as I start behind you and therefore lose some time which is represented as the time gap.
You need Gamer Sups to get your head around this stuff!
OK I think it is def worth trying from zero and this weeks course supports that so that is what we will do. NO ROLLING START THIS WEEK. So when the timer reaches zero treat it like a normal Zwift race and pedal like your life depends on it!
I will remind everyone on the start line.
Doing your homework then weeksy 🙂
This shows a worrying level of analysis and attention to detail.
So when the timer reaches zero treat it like a normal Zwift race
Well there goes my chances of not killing my self into an early bath.
mmm... gamer sups!!!
you travel the same distance as me but the first 50m are slow for you but the first 100m are slow for me as I start behind you and therefore lose some time which is represented as the time gap.
Hmm.. but..if the first 100m are slow for you, your finish line will be 50m AHEAD/SOONER than mine... so technically I'll have more time at race pace than you... thus i'll have a better chance of a faster time (all things being equal)?
DrP
Don't worry Ian, life isn't fair. Zwift isn't fair. You're going to get disconnected anyhow.
going to get disconnected anyhow
Or have you power 'spikes' at 1400W and fly past everyone.
ooh.... both true... this could go EITHER way for me....
DrP
I reckon racing from zero will impact the results too much for someone like me. Basically, if you are at the back and the fast guys are at the front then it's quite possible you don't make the first group, and your race is finished before it's started. It basically Introduces a huge dose of luck into things. It may work better tomorrow as draft may not have such an impact on a hill, but normal I'm not for it. I also suspect it'll just ensure that the faster guys go off even harder knowing a group of hangers on is less likely to form around them.
In 7 races so far I've not once missed the go go go so struggle to see the issue. If you are paying attention not sure how you can miss it. If you aren't paying attention then tough luck.
Someone suggested an alternative which is robbo cycles 100 meters up the road and stops. We all then cycle up to him and stop just behind. Robbo then says go go go and everyone starts from a stationary position, but more in line than when we just spawned in the game.
My two peneth.
Thinking along a similar line to TPBiker. If we are going to do a stationary start why not start as we have been doing amble along the road a little to give time for the ride leader (Robbo) to identify and call out a feature for everybody to stop at. Give a little time for everybody to stop there then 3, 2, 1 go. On some tracks a suitable meet and start point might be well known and announced in advance.
This negates issues with some riders being caught a long way down the road and also any last minute joiners not being quite ready, not always their fault. granted it might not always cause an issue but there’s always going to be somebody who would normally jump the lead group who’s going to be left behind having started at down the road. It’s obviously a tactic for a lot of folks to jump on the lead group and try to stick with it hence the amount of rapid starts and first laps we’ve seen with lots of riders on board.
It wouldn’t matter if somebody stops slightly ahead of the start line as they will soon be caught by a group.
tpbiker
Full MemberIn 7 races so far I’ve not once missed the go go go so struggle to see the issue. If you are paying attention not sure how you can miss it. If you aren’t paying attention then tough luck.
I don't think it's got anything to do with paying attention, or not. It's probably more to do with practice at racing on Zwift, sensitivity/reaction time of trainer etc.
I reckon so far I've had a 50/50 success of being in the blob as the start is announced.
Last week, I started at what I thought was a reasonable output but was struggling to catch the group & ended up having to put in over 230w to catch up - I thought it was hold 100w at the start until blobbed, so that was a bit of a surprise.
I lifted to stop overshooting; I was still a way back from the main group but closing, & suddenly the GO GO GO message appeared. I immediately started going as hard as I could, but as I hadn't quite closed the gap it opened up quickly & that was me stuffed.
I'd be quite happy to try starting from the zero count on the meet-up. If we don't try it, we will never know how well it works....it might be a complete mess, but it's only one race....
I don't think it will hurt to try the "zero countdown and Go!" this week, it will be interesting to see what effect it has, positive or negative.
possibly where you went wrong... due to the "sticky draft" you have to be going a fair whack faster to overshoot so it probably wouldn't have been an issue... either way it's better to be ahead than behind when he types GO 😃I lifted to stop overshooting;
Hopefully this new method will work... should be enough people in the meet-up that everyone can get some kind of draft at the start and then naturally blob up - although will suck if the slowest person spawns right at the back!
Starting the race from zero is fine by me. If your finish line is determined by your start point at the beginning you just need to remember where you started. I typically finish alone anyway 😭😂
Pretty excited for some racing now
Thanks @nixie looking forward to the pain! Only done one other zwift race so we'll see what happens
No opinion on the start, I don't know any better... probably for the best
Ok no worries let’s give it a go.
Did a recce on the course tonight - you start climbing after 400m after 600m you are hitting 6-7% so def worth a go of going as the timer hits zero tomorrow night. Will remind everyone on the start! The race is still going to split in 600m but hopefully you can find a good group.
@paino I have updated your handicap - 14w should save 55 secs of your time.
I won't be in tomorrow because of ZRL but I am missing STW races, and want to chip in on the start issue.
For me, its not a question of missing the GO, or having race experience. I've done hundred of races.
For me its fairness, I am trying very hard to stay level with robbo, not be in front, and frequently GO appears to be announced when robbo is still accelerating, or mostly just when there are a large bunch in front, rather than level with or ideally behind.
Thats probably because it's almost impossible to get a blob at slow speeds/w per kg, the variance in speed is too much, and everyone is desperate to be at the front to mitigate the delay.
Aside from saying 'no go until 5k/30 kmh ' or something, to allow speed to build up and everyone to be alongside if they can, I don't see a better system, so it is what it is.
The launch from the side of the road does not work well for me, it's a crap shoot, because everyone does not go at the same time. Record your starts - I only know apple tv and often see people pulling out and riding across the front of me before I get to move, or me doing the same to them. Seeing everyone disappear before you have even moved does not make a nice experience, even if doing the same distance as a result.
One day Zwift will get their finger out and make it work for meetups.