[Closed] Stuck on next bike.. Cotic Flare/Rocket, Orange five or Whyte T130/G160

Orange Four.

Have a look at the ex demo four on Oranges website , a friend just bought an rs spec one for £2800 ,., its a flyer .. But i still prefer my five ! Filing cabinet

Trance.

Cotic have a demo bus touring the country. Check out 'where's Sam?''

If I wasn't very much in love with my Nuke TR still, I'd be seriously considering a Flare or Flare plus. I have a mate who just fell head over heels and sprung for a new 12sp G160 to replace a worn out Mega AM.

I'd hold out for demos if you can, even if it means driving a few hours and spending fifty quid or so. Ordering from your LBS after a paid demo elsewhere is fine, it's what demo fleets are for. Showrooming is different. Three grand is a big mistake to make.

Not sure you can really make a mistake with bikes like that. They're all pretty much similar things with slight differences. They'll all ride very similarly. You're just as well choosing on the basis of colour or which one you prefer the look of. I went on a Cotic demo last weekend. Had a go on a Flare Max and Rocket Max. Both fantastic bikes and either would be more than enough bike for me. But despite their modern 'progressive' geometry they were not hugely different than my 2013 Covert 29 (not sure if the Covert has modern progressive geometry or not - not massively different from a Rocket Max). Better for sure, but not night and day. The biggest revelation of the day apart from how good the bikes were (I sort of expected that) were how good the X-Fusion shocks were. The go-to Rockshox and Fox options really are no better or worse than the X-Fusion shocks. I was impressed.

I'll be signing up for a Rocket Max at some point in the not too distant future. Looked great, rode great and a bit different.

Thanks for the input!
The Orange Four sounds like too little travel at 120mm, but could be wrong.

The G160 was impressive! Felt pretty agile given the travel & weight (S spec) so I figure the T130 would be even snappier.

Am I right in saying they are all single pivot, or single pivot driven? Especially the Droplink and four bar- they look to be the same.

The closest Cotic demo day is in a month and over 3hrs away, which is rather annoying.

I would go for one of the new Cotic drop link bikes. I think they look gorgeous.

As a wild outsider, You can get into a Nicolai Geometron for not much more money. Speak to Chainline who regularly posts in the Nicolai thread.

I've been musing about various bikes for a while and I'm thoroughly stuck

That was me until very recently. I'd thought i'd give a 29er a rattle and settled on mid travel FS to try and narrow the choice down a bit (it's probably good that's theres millions of bike to choose from - but i found it a pain). Your old T129 was high on the list. As was a Stumpy and a Smuggler and possibly a Mega 290/Enduro. No chance of a test ride as there's not many places over here (N.I.) that do them never mind in glorious XL. I was patiently waiting for the '17 models to be released (and secretly hoping that the paint schemes would be less wick) when a Cotic RocketMax appeared on the homepage on here. 'That's just what i'm after!' i thought. Never had a Cotic but read many good things about their bikes and as a company. A bit of an impulse buy tbh but it was made from cro-mo, was my favourite bike colour, had a decent spec (+1 Wobbliscott - the X-fusion stuff seems very good - much better than i'd expected) and the measurements were all neo-geo (not that i understand them 😛 ). I've not really had a proper ride on it mind you (awaiting the bugling disc in my lower back to shrink a bit 😡 ) but playing about in the street it rides very nicely.

That's not really going to help you with your decision is it? If there is a point then it's maybe don't rule out a bike just because you can't get a go on it. I've never really done test rides though so maybe there is no point 😀 . I'm sure whatever you get you'll be very happy with.

Yeah, I like the idea of Cotic. I'll get frame only and build it up to what I want, versus the off the shelf spec from the others.

Thanks Euro, that's actually helpful. I did buy my T129 without a test ride. First FS 29'' i'd ever ridden, and it turned out to be a great bike.

I wish I had a clear favourite, heart over head, but I don't. They all seem like good options with their relatively minor negative and positives .

Not sure where you are Cokie but there's a Forest of Dean demo on 19th Aug...

Trance.

boooooooooring, rides like something designed by committee.

Not a fan of Giant, plus the LBS don't stock them.

Cotic have a full-time demo guy and seem willing to set up small-scale demos with potential customers. You could get a few friends together and invite him to visit your local trails with some bikes.

Are you set on 650b then? I'd give the Rocket Max a try if you're after a bit more travel.

My experience on going from a short travel 29er to 150mm enduro sled has been that it's fine on the downhills but noticeably harder work on the climbs and on the flat. And also that it's not actually faster on a lot of downhills.

Good job I kept both!

I think what struck me with 650b is how nimble it is. I cycle for fun, and the distance covered isn't everything to me. I love to 'play' on the bike- manual, wheelie, jump, kick the back out, etc. The G160 was so much more nimble and easy to popup over the T129, despite being heavier and having more travel. I figured a short travel 650b maybe more playful yet. I couldn't believe the difference when I tried it.

Thanks for the heads up, pinged Cotic an email.

Was out last night and one of our mates turned up on a brand new cotic flare.
Nice bike and he was impressed with it but felt it was a little harder to pedal than his other bike.
Straight steerer, nyloc nuts on the pivot bearings but was rapid downhill.

You'd be mad not to try the new 2017 Five. Lots of 'first impression' reviews if you google it. I saw the bike yesterday and it looks amazing - geometry is totally sorted. Now optimised for 150mm up front. It'll do everything, give you a fun and engaging ride, and keep going right through winter with no bother at all.

I know I'm hypersensitive to geometric things but the clear difference between the bikes is that the 130mm ones have a slightly steeper head angle than the other three, the T130 and Five have a very low BB height, the G160 and Flare a low BB and the Rocket a slightly higher BB and the Cotics have slightly longer chainstays.

The suspension is quite different as the Whyte bikes have minimal anti-squat so more bob but more rear braking grip, the Orange the most anti-squat so will bob least (despite being a single-pivot) and the Cotics in the middle. The Cotics should have more pop the way the leverage rate ramps up, the Whytes and Orange being linear.

If you're riding mostly trail centres or stuff so steep you rarely pedal then the v low BB heights are great but for more natural trails I've found a bit higher works better, especially if you'll be pedalling (so either flatter trails or when racing). Personally I like how the slacker bikes steer and I like progressive suspension and I don't think the lowest bikes would work as well on my local trails.

As Cotic are running demo days I'd definitely want to try them. I think the Rocket would be the bike for me but if I lived near some trail centres I'd lean towards the Five or the Flare. I'd need to ride the Whytes because my current bike's suspension (Spitfire) is very different in how its suspension behaves.

Sargey- interesting.. what bike did he have before?
I spotted the nylon nuts on a Rocket and thought it was a bodge. It's certainly not the neatest solution vs the other brands.
Like this?
[IMG] [/IMG]

Wl- The Five interests me because it's medium travel & simple. The one thing putting me off is lack of water bottle mounts. I never run a pack and strap all my bits to the bike.

CGG- Really interesting, thanks! The longer CS of the Cotic do worry me a little. The Flare is 15mm longer than the T130, and the same as the t129, which although easy-ish to popup was notthing compared to the G160.
I have been thinking maybe one of the 130mm bikes with an angle set to slacken it out to 66'/65.5'.

Regarding BB height, the T129 was 335 and the T130 (lowest of the bunch IIRC) is 331, so not much in it. The T129 was fine for my trails. I only found it an issue on rutted bits and some slow techy climbs/trail obstacles.

A slight curve ball is that I would have to settle for the Whyte full builds, against custom builds for the Cotics and Orange.

Lack of water bottle mount is slightly bizarre reason not to choose a bike, IMO. I'd just start using a pack, personally. Also, a Five is a properly capable bike - perfect for very long rides and getting into the kind of hills and mountains where a pack is pretty essential for safety, spares, grub, waterproof etc.

I'd take the above with a pinch of salt, with all due respect. All I ride is natural and generally rough and rutted Pennine trails and a low BB is great. Unless you're a beginner, you quickly get used to positioning your pedals and a low BB really comes into its own - amazing at speed, on genuine singletrack, and especially in corners. The new Five would be wasted a bit at trail centres, where an Orange Four or hardtail would make far more sense.

I know you fancied a change, but genuinely, the T-129 was an incredible bike, way more fun than it has any right to be. The T-130 is also a great bike, but for me the 10mm extra travel doesn't make up for the lack of wheel size and though it's undeniably easier to move around, I found it a bit slower on the trails therefore to me less fun.

The G-160 is a beast, an incredible machine! It's more competent than many DH bikes from not that long ago, yet can easily be pedalled back to the top of the hill. But... IMO it's too much bike unless your riding consists almost entirely of full on Enduro riding. On more sedate trails, engaging it is not.

As for the Orange? Been a while since I've ridden one, but never got on with 5's.

The Cotics look nice but can't help feeling they've missed a trick geometry wise with BB heights and chainstay lengths longer than ideal.

In summary... New T-129 with improved rear tyre clearance! Or... Well... You know what I ride and why... 😉

If you look at the geometry of the fastest enduro bikes they generally have higher BBs than current trail bikes, and the slight increase in suspension sag no way compensates. I'm not a beginner and my bikes in the last year range from 300-340mm BB height hardtails and 342-354 full-sus (adjustable). I know the pros and cons. I'm not surprised a low BB works well in the Peak as the trails may be rough but they're also relatively straight and rather lacking in both tightness and roots due to trees. Look at how that beginner Richie Rude crashed and knackered his shoulder last round of the EWS... 😛

If the T129 was fine on your trails then the downsides of a very low BB don't affect your riding, in which case I'd choose a bike that lets you enjoy the upside like the Five. Though as I love my Spitfire a lot I can't help but recommend that too (sorry!) Similar geometry to the Orange but fractionally longer chainstays, much more linkage progression and the joy of adjustable geometry (12mm of BB height and 1 deg of angle adjustment), 333mm BB height, 66 deg head angle in the lowest setting.

Looking at just the reach values for the bike closest to 460mm / 18" / Medium seat tube you've got a 55mm difference between shortest and longest. That's longer than the average stem length and going to make far more difference than a few mm on the BB or 15mm on the chainstay.

Cotic Flare - 130mm - 440
Cotic Rocket - 150mm - 433
Orange Five - 140mm - 456
Whyte T130 - 130mm - 467
Whyte G160 - 160mm - 495

Buy the one that fits you not the one that the internet tells you is most poppy or most aggressive or most whatever buzz word you fell most associated with.

Thanks all.

I knew you'd chime in Mboy! The T129 is very capable, no doubt. I've placed pretty highly on a couple Enduros on it. The 29'' was a bit unwieldy at times. In an ideal world I'd have two bikes, probably the T129 and G160 but I can't afford that. The Evil is a dream machine, and my full budget would get me just a frame and headset!

So, I can get a test ride easily on the t130, but it seems near impossible to get anything on the Orange and the closest Cotic demo date is in October.. Things haven't been made any easier.

My preference is a long TT, slack HA and short CS. Maybe a T130 with a 140mm fork to slacken it then or just a 1 deg slackset?

Podge, why would he not buy the size that is the right reach? An 18" seat tube is too long for most riders who fit a medium frame if they want to run a 150mm+ dropper post. Size by reach and ETT and then buy the dropper post that fits.

Plenty of very tight and rooty stuff here in the cheeky wooded areas Calderdale (Pennines), and a low BB really isn't an issue.

People are allowed different opinions you know! If a 330mm BB was always ideal why do you think so many bikes made for enduro racing are higher (and then often fitted with a longer than standard fork)?

Do you a good deal on a 160 works Cokie 😉

Sure, whatever. No idea about enduro racing - not interested - just saying that a low BB feels great to me on every kind of trail, including very tight stuff and very rooty stuff.

My mate who I went on the demo day with has just ordered a Flare Max. Like me he is coming form another long travel 29er and was going for a Rocket on the basis that most of the time it's a lot of bike but for the times we do an uplift day or hit DH centres we've got all the bases covered, but after a conversation with Cotic they convinced him that despite the lower travel of the Flare, it is still a very burley bike, easily capable of a bigger DH day - maybe with some burlier wheels, and easily capable of some big-ish 5ft or so drops - more than enough for us, so he's ultimately gone for a Flare max with 130mm forks upfront. I'll see how he gets on with it and might go for the same myself.

Wobbliscott- what did you think of the Flare vs Rocket? Where they easy to manual? What bikes did you come from? Sorry- many questions!

chiefgrooveguru - Member
People are allowed different opinions you know! If a 330mm BB was always ideal why do you think so many bikes made for enduro racing are higher

Enduro biks tend to be longer travel too, and will sag more as a result, which will mean they ultimately end up withthe same BB height or lower as their shorter travel equivalents - the 7mm between the Flare and the Rocket is about a third of the 20mm difference in travel between the two, which is roundabout where you end up with sag wise.

chiefgrooveguru - Podge, why would he not buy the size that is the right reach? An 18" seat tube is too long for most riders who fit a medium frame if they want to run a 150mm+ dropper post. Size by reach and ETT and then buy the dropper post that fits.

That would make sense but you still have 22mm between longest and shortest when looking for the closest range which [u][b]to me[/b][/u] is far more influential than a couple of mm on bb height.

Cotic Flare - 130mm - 440
Cotic Rocket - 150mm - 433
Orange Five - 140mm - 442
Whyte T130 - 130mm - 432
Whyte G160 - 160mm - 455

That nut/exposed thread on the Cotic does look disappointingly inelegant, doesn't it?

I'd imagine its every bit as effective as something more styled (and a lot easier to replace if lost) but it still lets an otherwise lovely bike bike down a bit

[img] [/img]

honourablegeorge- Agreed, I'm sure it's perfectly functional, but it lacks the aesthetics of the Whyte and Orange solution. Even the thread is too long. Why didn't they take a few mm's off? Same for the cable routing- it's a bit messy versus the integrated solution from the others.

I've calculated the T130S and RS build costs to find out frame value. I know it's crude and it's only based on the internet prices I can buy parts at, but it puts the T130 S frame cost at £662.50 and the RS frame at £771.50. Despite the RS being £450, the frame is more expensive making the S better value (relatively).

[IMG] [/IMG]

Sure, whatever. No idea about enduro racing - not interested - just saying that a low BB feels great to me on every kind of trail, including very tight stuff and very rooty

I don't dispute they feel great but when going flat out they don't always work so well, partly because of pedal strikes and partly because it takes more effort to initiate a turn, especially when a long wheelbase and slack head angle is also increasing the stability and decreasing propensity to turn. When you know a trail well it matters less, when gravity is with you it matters less, when you're not in a hurry it matters far far less.

I've no idea if this is helpful or not, but when I test rode the original 26er Rocket, it definitely wasn't sofa-like.
When Cy was arguing that there was no point in making a shorter travel version, I could see his point exactly.

That's obviously without having ridden the shorter travel version.

bigrich - Member

Trance.

boooooooooring, rides like something designed by committee.

Does everything well, with an excellent built quality and warranty, what's not to like.

what's not to like.

In a word - fugly

All this talk of ugly Rocket bolts has made my doggy sad 🙁

[img] [/img]

Luckily she doesn't give a shit about BB drop and reach and stack and chainstay length and all that numbered geekery - she just wags her tail and has fun 😀 .

If you turned her round she'd start wagging surely - Dad we're going biking - wahay! 😛

The bb on that Cotic is perfect weeing height.

I can guess why the bolt on the DS is apparently "too long" on the droplink bikes. The same bolt on NDS screws into the brake mount as well, so rather than have two lengths of bolt they buy in just one.......
I know I am biased a bit, but I never notice the nut when I'm out and about on my Rocket, having too much fun.

Cokie - no worries with the questions. The Flare max vs Rocket max. I started out on the Rocket (29er wheels with 140mm up front) and it felt very similar to my 2013 Transition Covert 29 (140mm rear, 150mm up front). It felt a tad lighter but the ride was similar but the bike definitely felt nicer (all very subjective unfortunately). The trail consisted of 2 climbs and 2 descents and I did one of each on each bike - The descents were probably equivalent to a decent trail centre red - fast with loose rocks.

There was not a huge weight difference between the flare and the rocket, the flare slightly lighter, but not like an XC whippet - it's definitely a sturdy machine. Seated climbing, both bikes feel like good climbers very little bob - not detectable - you could definitely do an all day epic on either. However the flare is definitely the better climber - just felt tighter. On the descents to me the Flare felt like a smaller bike under me - not sure why, they are similar sized bikes from their physical dimensions - I think the Rocket might be a bit slacker. Apparently the flare had a shorter stem and the rocket a longer one where you'd normally expect the opposite, but getting off the flare and onto the rocket between descents the Rocket felt like a larger bike - which I personally liked - gives me a bit of confidence and hides my many skill deficits. But that is probably just a case of getting used to different bikes. So not a massive difference between the two bikes. The flare is slightly lighter, slightly better climber, possibly more nimble, but the Rocket just feels like a bike that can just soak up anything you can throw at it.

I'm a keen trier on the manualing front - have no problem getting the front end up but holding it there is another matter. I can do it well enough to get the nose up to get off drops and over obstacles. Both bikes manualed well (I think the chainstay lengths are near as makes no difference the same as my Covert). They were both 'poppier' than my transition but not sure if that is down to shock tune or something - they were both easier to get off the ground and spring off small trail features than my Covert.

Sorry my descriptions are a bit wishy washy - I wouldn't make a good bike reviewer for a magazine, but to be clear - both bikes rode brilliantly. Very well built, sturdy and nicely engineered - very refined - Cy's done a great job, you can feel the development in the bikes, I doesn't feel like they have any particular weakness. They were both similar but definitely better than my Covert. What I really would like to do is to ride one of these high end super expensive hyper bikes as a comparison. My dream bike would be a Yeti 5.5C but price and warranty reputation means i'll never have one, but it would be interested to see how something like that compares to a Flare/Rocket and if the extra cost is worth it.

Just sold my BFe and currently selling my Foxy to fund a T130c RS, though on paper the Flare looks very tempting, would love to get a test ride of the Flare, Flare Max and T130 back to back. I loved the T130C Works I rode earlier this year, it just felt so much more alive than others I've ridden, very playful, fun but didn't feel like I was under-biked, just felt right. I loved my BFe, gorgeous bike, but it was way to small for me and felt a little dated and I just didn't ride it enough because of the size. Aside from that though (and the paint not being the best) it was an awesome bike to ride and I'm sure the Flare will equally as good. Overall though I think it's hard to beat the T130, the Flare would have to be unbelievably good to justify the extra expensive for me.

Thanks all! Really appreciate the reviews & info.

Think I'll have to discount the Five. I can't get a test ride and the lack of water bottle mounts annoys me.

I also think the Rocket is probably too much travel, so that's out.

Fight between T130 and Flare..

Some thoughts then..
> The T130RS is £2750, but the equivalent Flare build is £3200.
> The T130Rs geometry is arguably better- longer reach & shorter CS.
> The Flare is from a smaller guy and I like Cotic, but then I also have affinity to Whyte.
> I like the idea of a steel front triangle- it looks nice, but it's also heavier.
> I can pickup the Whyte tomorrow and get riding, over a slower build with the Flare.

T130 test ride tomorrow, and waiting to hear from Sam about Cotic.

jimw - Member
I can guess why the bolt on the DS is apparently "too long" on the droplink bikes. The same bolt on NDS screws into the brake mount as well, so rather than have two lengths of bolt they buy in just one.......
I know I am biased a bit, but I never notice the nut when I'm out and about on my Rocket, having too much fun.

Yeah, the engineer in me appreciates that as a sensible solution. But the Cotic fan in me expects their FS bikes to be as pretty and nicely finished as their hardtails (and they are, for the most part)

Wobbliscott- what did you think of the Flare vs Rocket? Where they easy to manual?

I'm fond of a wee manual. The Rocket Max is many more longers than my Stumpy Evo and my first attempt was uugh!!! Like trying to open a door from the hinge side 😀 . Next go i shifted backwards a bit and it wasn't too - a bike length or two maybe. Third go and i floated down the length of the street on the rear. And that's with a bad back. Stumpy is a bitch to manual in comparison.

Not trying the hard sell the Cotic btw, just answering your Q.

whitestone - Member

If you turned her round she'd start wagging surely - Dad we're going biking - wahay!

It worked!

[img] [/img]

Like you said, hypersensitive.

Yes it's a curse! On the plus side I earn a living from it (not with bikes, with my other obsession...)

I wouldn't say the T130's geometry is better than the Flare's - it's more on trend but I'm not convinced that's it's the best thing for everyone. I'm 5'10.5 and I prefer the balance and fit of my bike with 430mm chainstays and 430mm reach (and 740mm front-centre so 1170mm wheelbase) to my other one with 420mm chainstays and 460mm reach (and 770mm front centre so 1190mm wheelbase).

boooooooooring, rides like something designed by committee.

In a word - fugly

Cokie YGM... Hopefully might be able to hell you out!

Cokie - Flare vs. T130 - you're a lucky boy (assuming you're a boy of course! sorry if you're not) I've not ridden a Whyte, but know them to be great bikes from mates who have had them. It's like choosing between Claudia Schiffer and Elle McPherson (I grew up in the '80's!). I think either way you won't be dissapointed.

So, ended up with this, a Whyte T130 RS with Pikes upped to 140mm, tubeless & some wide Burgtec bars. Mboy from The Missing Link Cycles in Droitwhich sorted this for me within a day and even travelled to drop it off! It's the last '16 in the country. Personally I prefer the spec over the '17 version.

Took it out for a spin and it was exactly what I wanted. Feels like a T129, but more nimble and easier to play around on. Was nice being on something that felt so familiar, but better.

[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]

That's a very nice bike indeed. Except for the colour matched Pike decals - I hate colour matched Pike decals - actually, I jsut don't like any Pike decals except blacked-out ones.

But again, now that I'm done nitpicking, it's a lovely bike.

When you're finished messing about on airfields, pop west to come and ride it on some proper trails! 8)

You don't hang about.

Good work, looks a great bike.

That's a very good looking bike. Enjoy!

Cheers all. Certainly not used to having Pink & matching decals..

Mboy, I'll definitely try and take you up on that offer.

I had the same wheelset on my T129, and I've already noticed how much stiffer they are in 27.5'' form, which I thought was interesting.

We love an update. Happy riding.