You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
If you don’t care much for Alfine hub gears you’d better hit your back button and go and look at something more interesting.
Right then, I built this
[img] 
[/img]
an On-One [s]gas pipe[/s] Inbred 29er with 30 speed SLX a few months ago with a view to switching to Alfine 11 speed when it came out. Now having put 2 or 3 hundred miles on it and never once leaving the middle ring I decided that the 8 speed Alfine would actually fit the bill coupled with the fact that I just couldn’t be bothered to wait any longer for the delayed 11.
Now as there has been much talk and opinion, informed or otherwise, about the extra weight of an Alfine set-up over conventional gearing I wanted to get a direct weight and weight shift comparison between derailleurs and Alfine so decided to utilise as many existing parts on the bike as possible.
So, to start, the weight of the bike with the 30 speed SLX gears was
29.63 lbs
Then I removed;
XT rear hub, XT skewer, 32 x 290mm spokes and stainless nipples, 11-34 10 speed cassette, 10 speed chain, SLX rear mech, SLX front mech, standard SLX chainrings, left and right SLX 10 speed shifters and cables and 2 zip ties.
Added were;
Alfine 8 speed hub with 20T Alfine Sprocket and fitting kit, 32 x 285mm spokes and stainless nipples, Alfine 8 speed trigger shifter and cable, BETD Goldtec 32T chainring, 4 x 5mm spacers (to get chain line and utilise standard chainring bolts) and SRAM PC7X Chain.
Weight of bike with Alfine was
29.68 lbs
However, that was all done at my mates (weighed with the gear cable wrapped round the handle bars), next day at home I came to set the gears up and found the gear cable was way too long, shortened it by 480mm and weighed in (at the post office) what I removed at 19 grams which converts to 0.04 lbs and brings the total bike weight down to
29.64 lbs
So to summarise, my bike with 8 speed Alfine is 0.01 lbs (0.008 lbs or 0.13 oz or 3.68 grams to be exact) heavier than the when it was equipped with 30 speed SLX which I think you’ll agree is diddly squat.
Surprised? Yeah me too. On reflection, you pick up an Alfine hub for the first time and you’re shocked at the weight and immediately start wondering if you’re doing the right thing but that’s because almost all of the complete system is there in your hands. As you’re removing your conventional components they weigh very little but put them in one box to carry to your van and viola, there’s all your weight!
And yes, you could argue that compared to XTR the Alfine is heavy and rightly so but you’re in a different market altogether, Alfine was designed for a shopping bike not to win World Cup MTB races and [u]costs[/u] accordingly.
Anyway, now the weight shift. Suspended the SLX equipped bike from the garage ceiling like this
[img] 
[/img]
with a single tie to the top tube adjusted to find the point at which the bike was balanced horizontally, this was measured along the top tube at 190mm from the front of the seat tube.
Did the same with the Alfine equipped bike
[img] 
[/img]
this time the balance point is 157mm from the front of the seat tube.
Not terribly scientific but showed a rearward shift in the balance point of 33mm. Again, because of all the previous talk this was a bit of a surprise too but in actual fact if you put an innertube and a few tools in a wedge pack under your seat you’ll get the same result!
Actually, while I’m here I might as well talk about gear ratios. Fitted 32T chainring and 20T rear sprocket, this gives me the same range as a middle ring x 1-9 + granny ring x 2 on my previous SLX set-up. Though I’ve never used granny on the SLX I’ve erred on the side of caution just in case. If I find I’m not using the lowest ratio I’ll switch to 32:18 which will give me the full middle ring range equivalent albeit with 2 less ratios (i.e. larger gaps) which will suit me fine.
So there you go, I’m gonna go and ride the thing now and let you lot digest and discuss.
Oh, and here is the finished article.
[img] 
[/img]
I'm not reading all that! 😀
Nearly 30lbs? Repost when it has the expected seven inches of travel at both ends.
Fantastic piece of geekery
*applauds*
Aaah, bless you Stu McGroo. I'd love to have that much free time 😉
30lbs built from gaspipe though, that would come down with a lighter tubeset.
You've cheated in saving weight by using 185mm spokes, they should be 260-something?
A couple of queries,
You say you installed hub and stuff.........?
AND WHY NOT JUST SINGLE SPEED IT...... YOU KNOW WE WILL GET YOU IN THE END.
wow thats actually making me rethink getting an alfine, probably the best it has ever been explained. is that similar with a rohlof as well or is that heavier?
Good post Stu, nice to see 'actual' weight as opposed to the 'feels like 26lbs' approach.
Nice post though.
Good to see some real-life figures instead of the usual pro-derailleur waffle and prejudiced opinion. Well done!
All we need now is a lightweight Alfine designed for mtb.
Nicely done Stu,
FWIW, the posh gas pipe version with Alfine is 25.5lbs in this build
[img] 
[/img]
All we need now is a belt driven close-ratio alfine for the road!
Very good post, im currently alfining a bike myself and as im going from a 1x8 normal setup I will be gaining a bit more weight but do I care? Not one bit 🙂
Thanks for the effort put in to that..
Mods! Ban this filth! Actual empirical data backed up with photos? On an internet forum? Disgusting.
(PS. Well done, that was very interesting)
[img] [/img]
/p>
Nice bike! 8)
And good post Stu, awesome geekery at it's finest - a really good thread to be able to point folk to when they ask about the whole alfine thing!
Another myth/rumour to attempt to dispel is the one about all the mass being concentrated at the end of the bike affects handling etc...
Another myth/rumour to attempt to dispel is the one about all the mass being concentrated at the end of the bike affects handling etc...
Except IMHO it does. I have an alfine equipped cannondale badboy that I commute on every day and the concentration of weight at the rear hub is definitely noticeable when bunny hopping up kerbs or over speed bumps.
Don't get me wrong it's still a fab choice for commuting though, especially in this sort of weather.
This write up is useless, ruined completely by the inclusion of facts and evidence.
great post Stu. you have some work to do, to compare to the weight of my mighty P7 however - 33lb(!)
she rides wonderfully. 🙂
Great write up, liking the colour scheme as well!
Not tried the center of gravity test, you can feel it but soon get used to it.
I've weighed these three when converting from SLX & XT 27 speed to Rohloff & found they were between 270g & 390g heavier with the hubgear.
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Nice post...lovin my alfine 8 spd on the fatbike after 2 years beach riding its fault free...and theres another going onto the 29er in the New Year...nothing worse than mechs jammed with grass and mud.
I reckon if you fit an Alfine and get even 2 years before a problem your still no worse cash wise if you cost a hub compared to mechs,cassette,chainrings etc...
and you will have miles more chain life from an inline chainline 😮
pity you also hadnt done 25,000 miles fault free riding on a Gates belt drive too then that would of been job done well and proper 😉
It wasn't the mass distribution so much as the drag that made me give up on hub gears. It was demoralising.
In the process (I did swap a lot of bits and it was a Rolfharris so more than an alpine) I saved about 3lbs (original bike weight was 32lb, down to just over 29lb now).
you’d better hit your back button
I hit my belly button, is that OK?
Nice post Stu, you should be writing this sort of stuff for publication, not free on a forum. Excellent work.
And I guess with a suspension fork the rear weight shift would be lessened.
Cheers,
APF
Is it wrong I actually enjoyed reading all that
drag? as in when freewheeling?
my bike had more drag with the previous Hope pro 2 than the Alfine 8 speed...
granted the Alfine 8 speed aint perfect with the gap between ratios but for me anyway reliability and low maintenance combined with a clean driveline and no clogged mechs has been great 😮
Not freewheel drag but because the Rolf has 2 sets of planetary gears the lower set (gears 1-7) have noticeably more resistance to pedalling than the harder set.
I decided that on my type of bike it wasn't worth it- I don't have sufficient problems with drivetrains- but on a lighter weight bike and in the right situation I can see why they're better.
I'm unconvinced by those weights! You'll also need to carry a 15mm spanner, so that's another 200 grams or so...
Excellent post Stu, most informative!
Kev
Why 200 grams for a 15mm spanner?, just carry one of those machined pressed alloy multi fit spanners...think there old things but they fit and work 😮
An Alfine takes about 5 seconds longer to remove with the cable than a bolt up single speed hub too...just something alot of folk complain about that really isnt a issue 😉
Although not really interested initially, I enjoyed reading that. I may have missed something but You're comparing weights with triple rings up front to a single ring up front, irregardless of ratios this would still contribute a considerable weight difference no?
I can confirm the weights.
I was there,init.
Very good and appeals to my geeky side.
Thinking about an alfine just cannot bring myself to put one on my EBB Indy fab 29er as it is just too pretty.
J.
xcKeith
Yep but i know your scales start at -10 😆
Oh, and btw,one or two of you may not of noticed,it is a 29er.(hence weight)
and the rear wheel wheel spoke length is 288,although 286 would of been ok....
no Sticky,that was the temp in the shed.......
Just to add to the Alfine debate, I've been riding mine since Sept and can confirm the following additional scientific facts
[b]Useage[/b]
KM's covered 1065.40
Hours Ridden 62 hrs 50 min 50 secs
Used 29 times
[b]Maintenance schedule[/b]
Cleaned - Once (well hosed down the mud)
1 bottle green chain oil
1 X 9 speed jockey wheel (to replace damaged one, used a standard Shimano one, and seems to work fine)
Don't really care what it rides like, weight distribution, spacing between gears blah, blah, blah - it's the CASH savings I've been going for
So......still going strong
i thought you'd given up riding stu, how much for the 10 speed stuff?
All we need now is a belt driven close-ratio alfine for the road!
ir_bandito to the thread, someone has been listening in on us... 👿
however al - having used my alfine commuter for 7 months now.... you're dead right. also need an appropriate frame.
hmmm. get this off to Kingdom bikes, Paul and I'll take the credit thanks
Smashing post! More of this sort of thing I say.
Lovin the post McGroo...... but really, gears? HTF did you pursuade xckeith to get involved....?
Wouldn't it look better in purple?
First of all, I'll repeat what many people have already said to the OP, what a great post!
My solution to the weight distribution 'issue' was simply to move from a saddle bag to one of [url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=34149 ]these[/url]. In my case thats around 1.5 pounds of weight brought forward.
[img] 
[/img]
I'd be a bit worried using 5mm chainring spacers to get the correct chainline. To get around a 42mm chainline you can use [url= http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-64-mm-pcd-4-arm-alloy-inner-chainring-30t-black-with-silver-teeth-prod3941/ ]this[/url] and its a solid piece too - 4mm thick. If you flip the sprocket around to get a 47mm chainline, I've been eying up [url= http://www.widgit.com.au/ ]this[/url] with amusement, and in future the granny on any of the new double chainsets should be great too.
My mmmBop with u-turn revs comes in at at about 29lb, or 26lb with singlespeed wheelset (however this also has much lighter 2.1" wtb nano tyres). For vertical dropouts, the only tensioners I found that work ok with a 42mm chainline are the YESS ETR-D and the Shimano one. With 47mm chainline, the One-one Doofer is ok (but I massively prefer the ETR-D anyway).
[img] 
[/img]
Have to admit I'm kind of at a loss as to how it weighs so much? You sure your scales aren't on the piss? Unless it's got a load of weight stashed in the finishing kit or tyres or something...
Oh, and sorry but
"Fitted 32T chainring and 20T rear sprocket, this gives me the same range as a middle ring x 1-9 + granny ring x 2 on my previous SLX set-up."
I have no idea what this means 
Probably just me being dense but could you clarify it a bit?
Have to admit I'm kind of at a loss as to how it weighs so much
Largely because most people's claimed weights are bs so when an accurate weight is quoted...
My Swift @ 28.5lbs real weight with decent non-silly heavy kit on.
[img] 
[/img]
I am astounded by the content of this post - suffice to say fools seldom differ.
[img] 
[/img]
clubber wrote,
"Largely because most people's claimed weights are bs so when an accurate weight is quoted..."
I'm comparing it with my own verified weight of my Soul when it's in rigid form though, not with random claimed weights which as you say are pretty much always lies. 30lbs for a rigid mtb is pretty heavy even with a scaffold pipe frame, that's more than my Hemlock 😕
[img] 
[/img]
I have no idea what it weighs, but I like the Alfine hub. Still have the 11spd on back order.........any day soon Mr Shimano?
Wasn't specifically pointing the finger at you Northwind 😉
ChrisS - MemberAnother myth/rumour to attempt to dispel is the one about all the mass being concentrated at the end of the bike affects handling etc...
Except IMHO it does. I have an alfine equipped cannondale badboy that I commute on every day and the concentration of weight at the rear hub is definitely noticeable when bunny hopping up kerbs or over speed bumps.
Don't get me wrong it's still a fab choice for commuting though, especially in this sort of weather.
Exactly my experience with a Rohloff'd hardtail. The Rohloff is heavier than an Alfine, and it didn't feel quite as lively or eager to get air as a 'standard' geared hardtail. So I switched back to external gears.
[img][URL= http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/8089/2884155860036898833S600x600Q85.jp g" target="_blank">
here is my alfine bike it also has a qr wheel setup
[img][URL= http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/6098/2092259890036898833S600x600Q85.jp g" target="_blank">
picture of alfine qr wheel setup
Quite funny how this whole Alfine issue has evolved on here. It would seem that the net result is; that they are quite good really.
Had mine for a couple of years now and it hasn't exploded yet.
Like Mr Del I switched from a light (explosif) build to a meatier P7 build and we both find it a very stable ride.
WTF is going on with that chain?
So... the end result of this, predictably, is that on paper there's not much difference, but you can still feel it when you ride the bike? Here's a thought, swapping an Air Pike for a Dual Air Revelation on my RC405 which lost, I don't know, maybe 0.75lb and increased the crown-axle measurement by maybe 10mm made a huge difference to the way the bike felt in certain situations - it climbed like a drunken donkey, steered lazily and basically felt like a different bike, to the point where I put another Pike on up front. Bikes are quite delicately balanced things and I have no trouble at all believing that sticking most of the weight of the drive mechanism in the middle of the rear hub makes a significant difference to ride feel, because it doesn't take much.
I've ridden three Rohloff/Alfine-equipped bikes and in all three cases, you absolutely knew, from the way the bike handled, that it had a big chunk of weight in the rear hub. And surely what matters is the way the bike feels to the rider and how it rides?
Great post!
Regarding the weight balance, I think a better way to measure it would be to put the bike on two sets of scales, one under each wheel, and look at the ratio between the two weights.
[img][URL= http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/43691/2363030480036898833S600x600Q85.jp g" target="_blank">
this is how I tension the chain ,, it runs as either a singlespeed or alfine i have run this setup on a Marin mount vision SS since 1999
and never had any problems
I love my Alfine. I think with more shimano development it could really turn into a viable gear system for all mtbs. I certainly hope so. Thankyou for the write up stu.
Brilliant initial post, really well done. I particularly liked the CG location.
In terms of how it feels I think we could also consider moments of inertia. We are moving alot of mass away from the centre of gravity. This will make it harder to get the bike to rotate in the air.
I'm sure this would irrelevant to me and most. But maybe its what some people can feel when they talk about the change in balance
not only has this thread been polluted with so called "facts", theres also some seriously ugly bikes on here too.
Was actually quite a useful post, cheers for that. I can believe the weights too. Sticking a suspension fork like a reba on that bike would only add 600grams so the bike would weigh 31 lb which is about right for a geared steel hardtail 29er slx etc
How refreshing to have an interesting post about bikes!
Good job OP, nice looking steed. Not for me though, I'm going fixed. And probably beardy.
Excellent post. I've been Alfine-curious for a while. The link below is a review on the roadcc site. I read this post with interest and especially that the 11 speed is 90g lighter than the 8 speed. Hoorah I thought until I read...
[url= http://road.cc/content/review/27971-shimano-alfine-11-hub-and-shifter ]linky[/url]
The claimed weight of the 11 speed is 90g less than the 8 speed though in this review it is 68g heavier than the 8 speed. Is that a poke in the eye for folks waiting for the 11 speed version?
And yes I am an anal retentive weight weenie which is why when I ride with gears it's using a 1x9 setup.
Nice post, I've also been considering an Alfine as I bloody hate "normal" gears. How do they hold up to xc, downhill and jumping abuse though seeing as they were designed for commuters?
I think they were designed for off road (you may be thinking of Nexus) and reports have been positive.
i hthat have been told a company who runs a hire fleet of alfine mountain bikes have never had a faliure
Nice read Stu. I sort of like my Alfine but I've got a singlespeed wheel in it's place most of the time.
One of the best threads ever on STW.
I thought about doing something similar when I first went to Rohloff. The difference is, you did it. 8)
i hthat have been told a company who runs a hire fleet of alfine mountain bikes have never had a faliure
Mine has got incurable bearing play in it after a years riding in the peak.
If it's incurable and you're tossing it out, I'll have it 🙂
I'm pretty sure it's curable, just the average lbs has no idea where to start on hub gears.
But rather than take advantage of you - [u][b][url= http://www.hubstripping.com/shimano-alfine/shimano-service-anleitung-nexus-inter-8-roller-brake-SG-8R20-SG-8R25-alfine-ge%20Kopie.pdf ]Hubstripping site[/url][/b][/u] shows how it's done. A couple of special tools needed.
WTF does that frame weigh?
My dirtjump bike with old saint, 721s, 2.35 minions 2x8/bash and Pikes is less than a lb heavier than your rigid XC bike? 😯
If it's incurable and you're tossing it out, I'll have it
Heh, nice try! It's still in use, just on the commuter bike now.
Nice one Stu... Good facts to put paid to all the silly myths about Alfines!
Absolutely staggered your build weighs almost 30lb though... Must mean that mine, with Reba's and beefier tyres is probably more like 31-32lb!!! Hmmm... Still rides like it's a lot lighter though...
When we doing an Alfined 29er ride then mate?
There seems to be a break in the posts so I’ll attempt to respond.
First of all I did this out of my own curiosity, I expected the usual piss taking but was surprised by the compliments so thanks for that.
A few of you have commented on the weight of the bike. It’s a large frame and it’s cheap and that’s the actual weight not some manufacturer or media bullshit. I did weigh the finished article on a second set of scales at 20 odd grams lighter but 19g of that is excess cable that I removed so they’re pretty close.
However this is a before and after comparison experiment so the weight of the bike is irrelevant, if it had weighed 19.63lbs before it’d now weigh 19.64lbs.
Also, there have been some references to Rohloff, obviously this little experiment only relates to Alfine. I have no experience of Rohloff so shouldn’t comment but from the opinions of others it would seem heavier and suffer more with drag. Personally speaking the cost of Rohloff makes it a non-starter.
As for the weight shift, which I must stress is the balance point of the bike not the centre of gravity, I’ve added some amendments at the end of this post. I’m sure better riders than me will feel the difference, so far I haven’t noticed it that much but riding conditions are all over the place at the moment. Also the heaviest component on my bike is me, at 97kg and I’m moving all over the place so counter balancing a 33mm* shift isn’t proving too difficult
* see amendment
woody2000 - Aaah, bless you Stu McGroo. I'd love to have that much free time
I know, great isn’t it, you can have everything in the world but without time you have nothing!
cynic-al - You've cheated in saving weight by using 185mm spokes, they should be 260-something?
Sorry al, typo error, but edited in time so no one knows what you’re on about
alexpalacefan - Nice post Stu, you should be writing this sort of stuff for publication, not free on a forum.
No can do, I’d get the sack for using facts and refusing to tow the corporate (bullshit) line and capitulating to the demands of advertisers!
pypdjl - I'm unconvinced by those weights! You'll also need to carry a 15mm spanner, so that's another 200 grams or so...
Unconvinced based on what? What did your experiment turn up then? Feel free to be unconvinced but please back it up! As for the spanner, here it is with the open end ground off.
[img] 
[/img]
Fits nicely in my tool kit along with full set of allen keys, Gerber suspension multi-tool, chain splitter, spare links, puncture repair kit, spare tube, zip ties, velcro straps, rag, tyre levers and pump. Then there’s a bag of jelly babies, 3 or 4 mars bars and 2 litres of water in the camel back, all of which is carried by me at 6’4” and 97kg. The spanner weighs 63g so I don’t think it’ll make much difference!
BenjiM - I may have missed something but You're comparing weights with triple rings up front to a single ring up front, regardless of ratios this would still contribute a considerable weight difference no?
Not considerable but it all adds up, took 3 rings off (24/32/42) and added a 32 single speed ring that is a bit thicker.
rOcKeTdOg - I thought you'd given up riding stu, how much for the 10 speed stuff?
Why? you’ll be getting an Alfine 😉
chalkstorm - Lovin the post McGroo...... but really, gears? HTF did you pursuade xckeith to get involved....?
He has no morals, it’s all a sham 😯
Space Cowboy - Wouldn't it look better in purple?
No, it’d look gay, obviously 😉
s-keeper -I'd be a bit worried using 5mm chainring spacers to get the correct chainline.
I’m not, been ok so far, but I’ll keep you posted.
Northwind - Oh, and sorry but
"Fitted 32T chainring and 20T rear sprocket, this gives me the same range as a middle ring x 1-9 + granny ring x 2 on my previous SLX set-up."
I have no idea what this means Probably just me being dense but could you clarify it a bit?
Ok I’ll have another go, 32:20 on my Alfine gives me the same range as 32:13 down to 24:30 (10 gears in all) on my SLX. 32:18 with be equivalent to 32:11 down to 32:34. That’s the best I can do, if you still don’t get it then yes, you’re probably right.
ade ward
you need help 😯
BadlyWiredDog - So... the end result of this, predictably, is that on paper there's not much difference
From what I’ve been reading over the last 12 months on STW I thought the result was anything but predictable! And from the responses I’ve seen here I think there’s a fair few who are surprised.
Sorry if I've missed anyone out.
Now the extra weight shift stuff. My measurement of rearward weight shift along the top tube didn’t take account of the top tube being 17.7 degrees to the horizontal. If you're sad you do this
[img] 
[/img]
and then you can see that the actual rearward weight shift in the horizontal plane is only 31.4mm.
Furthermore, with the SLX set-up my rear wheel was on the stops at the front of the dropout. If I’d adjusted it to the center of the dropout (like it is now) then the difference in the before and after weight shift measurements would be less still.
P'haps if you spent half as much time riding you'd be really fit & quick,then wouldn't have to worry about silly little weight shifts 'n stuff 8)
I agree about Keef though,morals of an alley cat that "keef" ...... 😈
oh JJ you're soooo sweet !
The claimed weight of the 11 speed is 90g less than the 8 speed though in this review it is 68g heavier than the 8 speed. Is that a poke in the eye for folks waiting for the 11 speed version?
Nope
What a depressing thread. I was going to build an alfine bike but because of the delays with the 11 speed I have gone 1X10 instead. All those photos of lovely simple looking bikes and positive comments have made me question whether I have done the right thing. As stated, very depressing.
lol@JJ and xckeith1 - what a pair of keefs....
I wonder how many people with Alfines run carbon folks compared to say, Toras. That's basically a 3lb difference right there at the front of the bike. If you were hugely worried about the rearward balance, just fit a meaty fork...
As well as the Rev U-turn (4lb) on the bike I actually have a brand new Lyrik coil u-turn (5.5lb) I brought over from the states, was going to sell it on cause just cutting the steerer would massively reduce the re-sale value. BUT THANKS TO THIS THREAD (groan), even though my riding doesn't warrant a Lyrik, I might just feel the need to compare....