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I assume people buying at the high end of bike market (say £2k+) mostly use either a credit card or one of the 0% offers a lot of brands/big suppliers have. Given the ease of credit and the general accepting attitude that using it doesn't necessarily say that you're living beyond your means.
Tell me I'm wrong?
no
but ive bought 5 bikes new in 20 years of biking, a lot of my stuff is from ebay
No. I don't like to borrow money for anything other than the house and car. If I cant afford it I don't buy it. I do cycle to work every year which helps.
Nothing against finance but I will always try and avoid it.
you're wrong 😉
Not generally, but i did recently with the Parkwood as it was £31 a month.. i won't even notice that... But i'd have noticed £700 coming out... i could have spent it... but didn't see the point.
Yes, because I'm poor. I bought the last one in 2012, it was paid off a few years ago and I still love riding it today.
Some of us can afford the interest free repayments but don't have a few grand lying around to spend all in one go. Same reason I have a mortgage.
Tom KP
Don't see anything wrong with a bit of 0% finance. Even if I had the money to buy outright I'd still finance it and keep the money in my bank.
Have done in the past. Sometimes you can get some 0% deals and spread payment rather than have it all coming out in one go.
as long as it's affordable, there's no issue
I have never, ever bought anything on credit. Always been of the mind that if you can't afford it now, either save, or do without. I haven't suffered in any way because of this. Never understood why so many people are so willing to get into debt, and very often, for meaningless shit they don't need.
No. Credit is for essential stuff when you need it, not for toys.
I rarely buy a full build. The last three were debit card payments as I don't like buying on credit, or even % when I have the money and getting balls all interest.
If I don't have the money, I don't get the bike. Simples.
In the good old days I could steadily get a "new" bike by upgrading just bits at a time as there was just one wheel size, hub standard etc etc. No need to save up much or go into debt. I think next year, I'll bite the bullet and just get a complete bike, probably on credit.
ALways on credit. If its 0% I see no reason not to. Also good for your credit rating.
No noooooooooooo
Tried once, twice, three times to buy an AS-X on credit. Was refused each time.
The last time they thought to tell me that being refused actually damaged my score.
Goits.
yes, last few have been done that way, but always make sure one is payed off before buying another and always pay the zero card off within the zero % period.
lways been of the mind that if you can't afford it now, either save, or do without
I see interest free (or very low interest rate over short timeframe) as pretty much same as saving. The clear benefit is that you have it now rather than in 12 months and all is has cost is a few quid in interest.
Why do without stuff that you can afford (if you can afford the monthly amount you can afford it)
Nope. Hard cash.
Credit is for things like houses.
No, I was brought up to see that if I couldn't afford it then I needed to save up for it. But back then there wasn't the criminally easily available credit available: "Earning £400/wk and have payments of £500/wk? No problem sir, we are happy to give you more debt, sorry credit"
These days I'm fortunate that I can afford pretty much what I want. Unfortunately for the bike industry I don't want much as I've got a perfectly good bike thank you kindly.
Bought one bike off the shelf on credit, paid it off in 18 months. Was an enduro rig and a full sus.
Then my most recent bike i bought in bits and pieces with actual cash i had in my account. Took about 6 months and it was a lot cheaper than the off the shelf, but it was a hardtail and made up of some 2nd hand parts (forks, crankset).
Kinda - last bike I bought was on CTW scheme.
One before that was from Canyon, so I put it on a credit card, but paid it off at the end of the month.
Bit of everything, bought the last one on a low rate card, sold the bike I replaced it with a paid that off the balance - paying the rest in the usual manner. The previous 2 were frames and bits bought for cash, the one before was a 0% finance deal, the one before that was so long ago I can only remember it in black and white.
How and why you buy something it entirely up to you, although some people feel they need to save the rest of us from the errors of our ways, it's snobbery really.
There’s only one ‘rule’ I have for myself, if you’re going to buy something on finance, it should at least be with you as long as you’re paying for it. I wouldn’t let one sit on a CC for years after I’ve moved on, that would be a bit silly.
Yes, I have done in the past and will do again.
It doesn't mean I can't afford it. I have an offset mortgage and I have a large 'positive' balance in it; any left overs each month and also a monthly DD go into it, to reduce the capital I'm paying interest on. I could withdraw some of that and buy outright, but then i pay interest on it till it's rebuilt. Or, I could get someone else to lend me the same amount, pay it back over a year or two, save the interest and keep liquidity 'just in case'. The leftovers each month are a bit less as a result so i do lose a bit of interest in that way, but the numbers and benefits are still on my side.
I wouldn't use it as a means to buy things i can't afford.
(I also just bought a sex-trampoline on the same terms, although so far it's only being used as a bed 🙁 )
Key thing is affordability, which is separate to credit.
If someone is willing to lend me money with no interest to buy something, then I'll take it, providing I can afford to repay them the money according to their terms.
With bikes it makes sense for me. I'll usually buy a rolling chassis on 0% credit for £2.5-3k, stump up a third or half of that as deposit and pay the rest over two years - so about £70 a month or something usually. I buy the other bits outright and build it myself. Two years later, sell the bike (usually for around £1k or a bit more), use as deposit for new rolling chassis. This can also be a good way of avoiding large maintenance costs. Let the next person worry about that!
Key thing is affordability, which is separate to credit.
If someone is willing to lend me money with no interest to buy something, then I'll take it, providing I can afford to repay them the money according to their terms.
With bikes it makes sense for me. I'll usually buy a rolling chassis on 0% credit for £2.5-3k, stump up a third or half of that as deposit and pay the rest over two years - so about £70 a month or something usually. I buy the other bits outright and build it myself. Two years later, sell the bike (usually for around £1k or a bit more), use as deposit for new rolling chassis. This can also be a good way of avoiding large maintenance costs. Let the next person worry about that!
Seems quite evenly split atm, interesting that the "evil credit" thing is still quite popular. I'd be especially intrigued to hear the views of any folk who bought some 5 or 7 grand wundersled.
I don't think credit is "evil" just its inappropriate use. Gaming the system in the way that @ehrob and others mention is fine though I'd still ensure I had the funds somewhere to cover the payments should I get made redundant or whatever.
Maybe it's a generational thing both in the acceptance of credit and the desire to use it for what are very discretionary products. I don't think anyone has said a mortgage or a loan for a car is bad or evil.
Almost all of my fun is on credit, leaves ready cash in the pot for emergencies, and helps with your credit score.
My budget for messing about is only £60 a month, so saving for anything takes ages and I just fritter it away, credit is like begging for forgiveness rather than asking for permission. Just works better for me.
"Key thing is affordability, which is separate to credit."
If you don't have the cash to pay for something, you can't afford it, without someone lending you money. Which is fine, if you suddenly need a new boiler, or your bike gets nicked and you need it to get to work, but for things that aren't essential? Just stupid, in my opinion. Why not just save up until you can afford something, then buy it? That way, you have no debt, no stress, and no interest payments.
Why not just save up until you can afford something, then buy it?
What if you can afford it, what if you have the money for it and don't want/choose to spend it.
Byuing my Parkwood, the interest is £70 over the term, hell, i spend that in Costa some months LOL, let alone over 2 years payments.
Sometimes it's nicer to have the money coming out in dribs and drabs and keep the chunk in the bank just because.
Stress ? Why is there stress from money coming out ? I don't get stressed about buying a loaf, nor a jersey... why would it stress someone to have money coming out each month ? It comes out for Broadband, Council Tax, etc etc.... what's the difference ?
Credit is not bad. Bad credit is bad.
I've no objection to using credit if and when it suits. My last bike was bought second hand, the three before all new and a mix of cash and credit.
Most things I buy second hand. Things like bars, stems, etc. Are things that I constantly change trying to find the sweet spot. I'd be throwing money away if I bought new.
No. I haven't bought a bike for years anyway. More an ever shifting accumulation of old/2nd hand bits that make their way into being bikes. Occasionally something new and shiny makes it in too, but always paid for with money I have, not credit.
No. I do use cycle scheme every year for a splurge on kit as it's a good deal
I don't see any issue with buying a bike using credit - I'm doing this at the moment - 15% discount on RRP and 0% finance. I have the amount to buy outright saved, but I'd prefer to have that cash in my bank. If I have a problem at home (a repair of some sort) that will cost then I find this is normally best served with actual money.
Stress ? Why is there stress from money coming out ? I don't get stressed about buying a loaf, nor a jersey... why would it stress someone to have money coming out each month ? It comes out for Broadband, Council Tax, etc etc.... what's the difference ?
This
Q - is there a catch with a 0% payment plan?
It's like the Credit Crunch never happened... 🙄
"Byuing my Parkwood, the interest is £70 over the term, hell, i spend that in Costa some months LOL, let alone over 2 years payments."
Or, you could simply save the money, and give that £70 to a charity or other worthy cause, which, if everyone did so, would make society a better place. All you're actually doing, is making some very rich people, even richer. The same people who won't give a **** if you fall on hard times, and can't afford to pay your debts. They'll happily take your money and watch you go without basic necessities. Why give your money to such people?
"Sometimes it's nicer to have the money coming out in dribs and drabs and keep the chunk in the bank just because."
Just because what?
No I haven't, but I would consider it.
If I can't get what i'm after through a friend who owns a shop, and I can't get a discount on the item but I could get 0% I would do it & leave the money in the bank/ISA/wherever earning interest.
I used to be quite bad a buying stuff on credit (in my 20's) but since buying a house and having a wife who is great with money i have come to enjoy the delayed gratification of having a bike fund and saving into it each month, to get to the point where I can splurge!
The only issue I now have is I am getting to the point of not wanting to spend the money at all on bikes, because it is a fair chunk of cash in one go, and I like the security blanket of the savings! Eg there is a really nice SS on the classifieds, that I reckon would fit, and I have the money in savings to buy it..........but I have never ridden a SS rigid before and am not sure I am not just impulse buying and I would come to regret it later! Even my wife has given me the ok.....I am just fully procrastinating!
I think I may well be sticking with my 26" wheeled Five for a while!
Yep more than happy buying a bike on credit (so long as zero percent), because it normally work out about £50 quid a month and not only can I afford it, it stops me frittering the money on coffee at work (which I used to spend about £2.50 a day one and kicked the habit in order to self justify a bike).
Would never buy a car on credit or hire-purchase though as too much money per month and too much risk (I can fix bikes and don't care about scratches etc.
"Q - is there a catch with a 0% payment plan?"
Such schemes work on the premise that although most people will probably pay within the agreed time limit, there will always be a few who don't, who then end up having to pay steeply inflated interest terms, which help fund the interest fee schemes in the first place. Banks aren't lending people money to be nice, it's a business. The bank will gamble on the assumption that if 99% of folk are repaying properly, the 1% who don't, will generate the profit needed to make the scheme worthwhile. What caused the Credit Crunch, was far too much easy credit, and increasing numbers of people defaulting on their agreements, yet there wasn't actually any money anyway, as it never existed. Which ****ed things up for everyone.
Or, you could simply save the money, and give that £70 to a charity or other worthy cause, which, if everyone did so, would make society a better place. All you're actually doing, is making some very rich people, even richer. The same people who won't give a **** if you fall on hard times, and can't afford to pay your debts. They'll happily take your money and watch you go without basic necessities. Why give your money to such people?
I don't want to give it to charity
I did however give my Spearfish to my mate on an interest free payment scheme with no specific start or end point.... that's £800, surely giving your mate something is better than a random charity ?
Just because what?
Just because i may need it for something else.
I'm giving my money to someone providing a service... The same way i give it to BT, same as i give it to Thames Water or my mortgage company.
On-one have given me a bike... they've given me it and i've not paid them... Over the course of the next 2 years i'm paying them £70 for letting me do that... Bargain... i'm more than happy.
I've just bought my Whyte T130SX for cash.... Does this make me a better or worse person now ?
I have. Transferred it from a > 0% credit card to a a new 0% credit card.
I could have bought it with savings, and I'd never buy anything on a credit card, even at 0% if I didn't have enough money somewhere to cover it, if the need arose to pay it all off in one chunk.
It seems cheaper paying for something at e.g. £100 a month, than £2000 all at once.
"Just because i may need it for something else."
So, you don't actually have sufficient funds to protect from unforeseen events/circumstances. IE, you can't actually afford the bike AND have a sufficient security net if anything goes wrong. Great financial acumen. 😕
"surely giving your mate something is better than a random charity ?"
But you're not actually [i]giving[/i] him anything.
"I don't want to give it to charity"
Why not?
I will if it is 0%, prefer not to pay any interest if I can help it.
So, you don't actually have sufficient funds to protect from unforeseen events/circumstances. IE, you can't actually afford the bike AND have a sufficient security net if anything goes wrong. Great financial acumen.
yeah i do.
But you're not actually giving him anything.
I am, i'm giving him the ability to have my Spearfish now without giving me the money for it.
Why not?
I don't give to charity.
Not a bike, no.
A dish washer, yes.
Oh, and My Spitfire frame (not a complete bike) - 0% over 2 years
No, pay by card and then pay it off when the bill comes at the end of the month.
Mostly not, although i have used 0% for one bike.
Got it shortly after buying a house and a car, so was a bit tight on cash.
I knew i could afford the monthly outgoings, and didn't want to miss what was a very good deal.
Would never use finance other than 0% though.
No, I don't ever intend to either.
Never.
"I am, i'm giving him the ability to have my Spearfish now without giving me the money for it."
But you're not. You're selling it to him. Why not just actually give it to him without any need for repayment? He's a mate, you have a surplus bike, you can 'afford' to, so why not do so?
"I don't give to charity."
But why not? There must be a reason why you'd want to help fund some rich ****'s yacht purchase, rather than trying to help others in need?
Nope. I don't buy anything on credit - except houses.
The use of 0% credit deals does depend on the minority defaulting on their payments, the fact that so few (in percentage terms) do shows just how much money the banks make when they've got you by the short and curlies.
I'd possibly consider a 0% deal but I'd make sure I had the funds to cover the purchase beforehand so that those funds could attract what little interest they could.
A works sharesave scheme matured and I went to my mortgage provider to use it to pay off more of the outstanding debt. "Oh!" said the assistant "You've a lot of collateral. Do you want to take out a loan?" "No I don't! Why would I replace a low interest loan with one attracting a higher interest?" There was no answer.
clodhopper - Member"Key thing is affordability, which is separate to credit."
If you don't have the cash to pay for something, you can't afford it, without someone lending you money. Which is fine, if you suddenly need a new boiler, or your bike gets nicked and you need it to get to work, but for things that aren't essential? Just stupid, in my opinion. Why not just save up until you can afford something, then buy it? That way, you have no debt, no stress, and no interest payments.
Whilst the situation you've described would be quite irresponsible behaviour, its naïve and incorrect to assume that's what everybody who uses credit is doing.
In my case I do have the money. I'd much rather keep that in my bank account for essential stuff as needed. Sometimes I want a new bike. So if someone else is willing to pay for that, and allow me to pay them back in instalments, interest free, that's what I'll do. No stress and improved credit rating.
Given the way I purchase bikes, it also means I can afford a few nicer bits to hang off the bike if I so choose.
Don't know how old you are, but perhaps attitude to debt is a generational thing. If you're young and debt stresses you out, you won't live very long. Just make sensible decisions and manage it properly and credit is a very useful thing to have access to.
No, though I did buy a pair of Pace forks back in the '90's with Leisure Lakes cheques spread. 🙂
But I've no objection to people buying a bike on credit, even paying interest, if it's responsibly done- not some 7k enduro wunderbike, but I'd much rather have a bike, on credit, that I could use, if the alternative is to sit around home for six months saving every penny while twiddling my thumbs and avoiding spending that week's saving on a couple of pints at the pub on Friday night.
Not many things I'd use credit for, but I think a bike if you don't have one is a pretty decent use of pay later.
Mine have all been via C2W - I seem to do alright with £1k bikes..
I'll probably spend a bit more the next time I buy a new 'summer best' road bike - and would possibly look at 0% if it was an option.
[quote=clodhopper ]That way, you have no debt, no stress, and no interest payments.
...and no bike
Yup. Just bought my new roadie on a Halifax interest-free credit card. Cut the card up and threw it away and I'll easily have it paid off in two years from company divvies and selling crap on Ebay.
Daft not to really.
No - I upgrade as I go along, so don't tend to spend more than £1,300 or so in one go (typically on a HT frame, fork and some bits). I save up and then spend on my bikes; even complete bikes.
Complete bike prices aren't terribly competitive these days, which I suspect reflects the growth in "0%" finance.
I do wonder how long it will be until we see lease / PCP-type deals on the more expensive bikes, whereby the payment is for time-limited possession (as with cars).
If this place is anything like Pistonheads, then this thread will run and run...!
Pay up front last few times, not bought for a while and looking at the cost of the equivalent models to my Trek Remedy 9 2013 I wont be. Wouldnt turn nose up at interest free but hate to be paying for something two years later.
Lad I worked with always had a loan out and credit card maxed up to the hilt, was shit feared of dying and not having a load of debt thinking hed got one over on the system, wheres the logic in that 😕 , he was only in his 30s, saw him on facebook the other day probably mid 50s now, wonder if hes still running with the same mentality or if he`s increased his debt as the big day gets closer!!
Yes, I have been a frequent user of credit for a various things but no longer.
Now in strict pay it off mode as I don't expect any fiscal good news for the next few years.
Considering a new HT frame but will be flogging the Spitfire for that.
I decided a few years ago to go for a dream bike now I'm in the last - chance saloon. Saved up the £5k+ and tootled along to my lbs. Established that cash wouldn't earn discount or extra upgrades so accepted their 0% offer and keep the money in the bank earning almost no interest.
I could have bought any of my bikes outright but I don't. I use interest free or very low interest credit.
That leaves me a nice sum of money in the bank to buy things/emergencies etc,. where interest free credit is not available. Can't see any sensible reason why I wouldn't take advantage of it?
But then it doesn't stress me out, I don't see all credit as evil and I live for today.
RE: 0% finance - there are 2 versions we're talking here:
0% Credit Cards, these are reduced rate deal to entice people into buying on credit - if you get a 2 year deal and pay it off in 2 years, happy days you've beaten the system and your credit was free - statistically most people won't pay it off in 2 years and will in fact borrow more, for longer - the banks make their money from these people and a little bit from the retailer for payment fees.
0% finance deals, with bikes this usually means a fixed term, interest free agreement - you buy a bike, the cost is split over a few years, you pay it back you've paid no interest. [b]BUT IT WASN'T FREE[/b] interest free deals are, a sales method. Instead of the consumer paying for the credit, the bike shop does - and it inflates the cost of the bike to pay for it - 0% deals are there to entice the exact type of person who "doesn't do credit" Oh I'll keep my money in my ISA earning 4% and pay 0% interest - but they paid 10-20% more for the bike that they could have - it's not always easy to get around this though, LBS are reluctant to offer a better price "for cash" until the sales start, some brands won't allow them too.
There is no such thing as 'free money' someone, somewhere will always have to pay, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors a lot of the time.
0% at Wheelbase for my last bike. I paid the balance of my latest motorbike with a 0% balance transfer card. From memory it cost me £30 fee for £4000 with up to 30 months 0%.
I bought my house on credit, everything else gets paid for properly.
I have done previously but the last couple of frames I've bought I've paid by credit card to get the airmiles then paid them off straight away.
I've never had an issue with using 0% offers to buy bikes or other things like that but I've got to the point that I don't want or need any new bikes or other expensive stuff so I'll just save up then by the time I decide to buy something I'll hopefully have the money for it.
0% finance deals, with bikes this usually means a fixed term, interest free agreement - you buy a bike, the cost is split over a few years, you pay it back you've paid no interest. BUT IT WASN'T FREE interest free deals are, a sales method. Instead of the consumer paying for the credit, the bike shop does - and it inflates the cost of the bike to pay for it - 0% deals are there to entice the exact type of person who "doesn't do credit" Oh I'll keep my money in my ISA earning 4% and pay 0% interest - but they paid 10-20% more for the bike that they could have - it's not always easy to get around this though, LBS are reluctant to offer a better price "for cash" until the sales start, some brands won't allow them too.
Not always true. Recently bought an instrument that is for sale at £329 and is never a penny less than that wherever you go. Bought it on a 10 month interest free arrangement. The shop may have lost out as they are paying the interest but I haven't lost out as it was impossible to get it any cheaper.
If I could have bought it for say £250 from another shop outright I would have done.
Just need to do some very basic maths to work out which method to use for each purchase - sometimes credit, sometimes not.
All cash apart from C2W
Don't even like doing credit for cars, keep to an amount I can do cash
Just the house on credit/debt
Or, you could simply save the money, and give that £70 to a charity or other worthy cause, which, if everyone did so, would make society a better place. All you're actually doing, is making some very rich people, even richer. The same people who won't give a **** if you fall on hard times, and can't afford to pay your debts. They'll happily take your money and watch you go without basic necessities. Why give your money to such people?
That's not an argument against 0% credit, if anything that's an argument against consumerism full stop. Which is not what's being asked here. It's a valid viewpoint, does anyone really need the stuff they buy
0% finance deals, with bikes this usually means a fixed term, interest free agreement - you buy a bike, the cost is split over a few years, you pay it back you've paid no interest. BUT IT WASN'T FREE interest free deals are, a sales method. Instead of the consumer paying for the credit, the bike shop does - and it inflates the cost of the bike to pay for it - 0% deals are there to entice the exact type of person who "doesn't do credit" Oh I'll keep my money in my ISA earning 4% and pay 0% interest - but they paid 10-20% more for the bike that they could have - it's not always easy to get around this though, LBS are reluctant to offer a better price "for cash" until the sales start, some brands won't allow them too.
If i was given the option of a discounted cash price against a 0% deal - I'd do the maths and see whether the lost interest by eating into my savings pot was more or less than the discount. But as noted, reductions for cash are not as easy to come by nowadays. Best I've managed in recent years was some free kit with it, which i then had to hawk on ebay to get some cash back.
Thee's also the scenario where the 0% deal doesn't necessarily cost you extra but it's the difference between shop A and shop B. At the risk of opening the can marked 'support your LBS', that offer of a 0% deal vs a savings funded deal on a bigger purchase might be what swings where your order finally goes.
If 0% is available I'll use it, for instance I'm about to buy a new toy in the region of £2300 (not a bike), I have the money in the bank but I have the option of 0%, then the money I have in the bank is 1) making interest (granted not a lot) 2) available should I need money for something unplanned (house\car repairs etc).
I have used 0% in the past, setting up a schedule at 50% of what I can afford, stashing the rest as a form of PPI and then settling early.
But I may not do that again as I am moving to a no credit model of life.
But I may ignore that as clearly new bikes are the exception...
@deker - that money in your account should be your guarantee against the debt you've taken on with the 0% finance/credit not other purchases.
"That's not an argument against 0% credit, if anything that's an argument against consumerism full stop. Which is not what's being asked here."
Consumerism is fuelled by creating the illusion that people can have things they can't afford, and selling them stuff they don't need. Banks offering easy credit is just part of this. Many of the responses on this thread show just how deeply entrenched the consumerist ideal is, in our society. That someone would happily pay money to a bank, rather than help the needy, is indicative of just how rife this ideal is.
"available should I need money for something unplanned (house\car repairs etc)."
Credit should not be an option for poor financial budgeting.
whitestone - Member
@deker - that money in your account should be your guarantee against the debt you've taken on with the 0% finance/credit not other purchases."
It is, but that money in my account goes up every month when my wages go in so isn't really an issue, in reality I would only need to be able to stand one month of payments (in the event of needing the money and even then in the absolute worst case I can add extra to my credit card), it's all about doing the maths, there's no best solution for everyone, I'm pretty good with my finances and have very little debt.
By using the interest free option and making interest on the savings, depending on the rate you get the interest made is actually a discount off the purchase, if you buy outright then you may be worse off.
kerley - Member
Not always true. Recently bought an instrument that is for sale at £329 and is never a penny less than that wherever you go. Bought it on a 10 month interest free arrangement. The shop may have lost out as they are paying the interest but I haven't lost out as it was impossible to get it any cheaper.
If I could have bought it for say £250 from another shop outright I would have done.
So in this instance if you had the money in the bank, you would actually save money by using the 0% option as the £329 is making interest for you.
Nope. I don't buy anything on credit - except houses.
Ah, just remembered I bought my Brompton on C2W. Which is a bit like credit.
I do cycle to work every year which helps.
Nothing against finance but I will always try and avoid it.
Isn't cycle to work just essentially a discounted finance plan though?!
I think i'd always buy on finance. I don't see the point in putting £50 away each month (for example) to then buy the bike outright when it's all there (few years later) when you can just put that money to monthly payments and have the bike now at no extra cost?! Saving up seems a bit daft in this context to me.
I got my old one on finance and i'm currently nagging the wife to let me have another 😉
Consumerism is fuelled by creating the illusion that people can have things they can't afford, and selling them stuff they don't need. Banks offering easy credit is just part of this. Many of the responses on this thread show just how deeply entrenched the consumerist ideal is, in our society. That someone would happily pay money to a bank, rather than help the needy, is indicative of just how rife this ideal is.
mmm, just a little patronising and condescending