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The fitness tracking giants are squaring off in court over patents, heatmaps, and segments – and it's messy and complicated. *Well, not every mountain biker - I don't have a Strava account or a Garmin device. If you've been out riding this week and missed the drama, buckle up: Strava has decided to sue Garmin as reported first by DC Rainmaker, demanding they stop selling virtually every fitness device they make. Yes, you read that right. The company that relies on Garmin users for the majority of its data has just bitten the hand that feeds it. What's Actually Happening?…
Every mountain biker ?? With the exception of the ones who don’t use Garmin or strava products.
Did you read the second sentence?
In Storm teacup or something. As long as my devices work when I ride a bike and show speed, distance and heart rate the rest is mostly fluff.
Is mild hilarious given how they behaved last year with their API changes and claimed it was Strava's data...now going after Garmin and their Chief Product Officer is claiming that it is your data (rather than Strava's).
This does smell of motions to improve their IPO claim and I suspect it is going to backfire.
could and asterisks doing a lot of heavy lifting there but still can't remove the smell of clickbait 🙁
Did you read the second sentence?
There's a magazine second sentence? 🤔
I shall be watching with interest, although not practical concern as a user of both. Whatever happens I will carry on using the Garmin to record GPS tracks and navigate and I'll just check in there for my overall ride stats if Strava integration becomes an issue as a result of all this.
Since it turns out this is all about attribution, I wonder if Strava are trying to line up a sale to / partnership with someone like Wahoo - a more direct competitor to Garmin.
When Strava moved the leaderboards to premium (except for the top ten) I started to lose interest. I don't have an account anymore. They don't listen to users. Won't care if they lose, kinda hope they do tbh!
I've got more invested in Garmin than Strava so they'll be only one winner in my house. Won't mind saving my £50 subs.
I'm about to start looking at garmin segments - just so I can see if I'm going faster at all...I don't use Strava so those are of no interest to me.
why does it effect every mtber? the second sentence gives me no clue. I don't have a garmin nor strave nor do I ever look at their data
As an investor I wouldn't touch Strava with a penny of my cash. They've been operating for 15+ years and have yet to make any profit. Sure their revenue looks impressive, but it's all going towards operating costs. The 2 billion valuation is comical.
Whilst some may make profits from the Strava IPO, there's a good chance it will only be the Strava founders and their private equity investors.
I do use Strava checking on other people I'm following and seeing their occasional pictures. A bit like Facebook without advert (so far) and only with interesting people. However, I tried doing the same using Garmin Connect and it's terrible. I don't think you can add pictures to your activity. I feel I can't boycott Strava right now.
You can add photos to your activity in Garmin - open up Connect, open up your activity and just below the title of the activity there is an option to add photos.
Garmin Connect isn't a social platform like Strava is, so for those looking for the social interaction, it won't do that. What it does do is show you all your data that has been uploaded. It does require a Garmin device - which aren't all cheap.
However, it seems to work for people with a Garmin device and aren't bothered about the social side of things.
I'm bought into Garmin, so clearly I'm going to be biased but Strava and it's pricing doesn't work for.me. I killed my account when they changed the API last year - got properly wound up.by Strava claiming it was their data...and once it went in place and Trailforks had to delete 60m ridelogs, all our rider number reports became worthless (so potential funding bids for more trailbuilding proved harder to demonstrate).
Suunto have joined Strava in filing a lawsuit against Garmin, this time alleging they (Garmin) are copying some of Suunto's patented features around golf:
https://gadgetsandwearables.com/2025/10/03/suunto-garmin-lawsuit/
I'm not fan of Strava idiocy over this, but I'm even less of a fan of Garmin's recent ludicrous price rises, so I'm sincerely hoping Garmin doesn't buy Strava. I really do not want to be locked into platform which requires me to spend stupid amounts on money on throwaway device that Garmins effectively are (when their non-replaceable batteries expire).
I'm currently a subscriber to Strava specifically for the leaderboards functionality. Not that I'm likely to be troubling any Top Ten segment time but I find the ability to look up other riders recent rides is invaluable when planning off-the-grid stuff which could be susceptible to trail/route closures. As far as I know, no other product lets you filter activities today/this week/this month/this year NOR has the volume of data.
Trailforks has route reports - they do need filled out and submitted though, so may not be accurate.
Actually it could have probably have had far more reports available if Strava hadn't messed their API up and had all that detail removed from Trailforks...not as many people upload directly from their device to Trailforks.
Yes, I'm aware of TF (and I'm a paid TF subscriber) but as you say, the volume of data isn't there. For better or worse, Strava seems to have down up the "social" element so has that volume of users and therefore data.
Does anyone have any insight to what proportion of activities are recorded, by device manufacturer type? Theres some speculation that Garmin users upload the vast majority of activity data but, as far as I know it's just speculation. There must be a substantial proportion of users who just use the Strava app or use Apple or Samsung watches, whereas I could easily believe that Google/Suunto/Coros/Wahoo/etc users form a small minority.
All these users could be blocked out by any Garmin buy-out....
Second sentence
The fitness tracking giants are squaring off in court over patents, heatmaps, and segments – and it’s messy and complicated.
I really do not want to be locked into platform which requires me to spend stupid amounts on money on throwaway device that Garmins effectively are (when their non-replaceable batteries expire).
The latest Garmins (550 and 850) have replaceable batteries. Although the actual battery life is inferior to the current stuff; much as Garmin like to claim it's extended, they were caught comparing normal use for the current 840 with battery saver mode on the new 850.
I'm a bit loathe to move away from Garmin - mostly cos it's just a faff to set up a whole new account, download new apps, set it all to work with Strava... For all its faults, Connect does talk seamlessly to Strava (and vice versa) and it'd be a shame if Garmin's various attempts at copying others forced an about turn somewhere along the line.
At a guess, there is going to be something somewhere that gives an idea of units sold by company and this will no doubt be extrapolated to give an idea of number of users per manufacturer.
For those using a device and uploading from device and syncing to Strava, I doubt many (Garmin users, actually any device users) will start using the Strava app to record if they can't sync seamlessly.
Garmin Connect isn't a social platform like Strava is, so for those looking for the social interaction, it won't do that. What it does do is show you all your data that has been uploaded. It does require a Garmin device - which aren't all cheap.
Garmin Connect actually is kinda a social platform, like Strava. It's just that noone uses it like that. You can still have your activities visible to friends/everybody, and add pictures and comments and likes and all the rest of it. I don't think you'd have to have a Garmin device to use it, I think you could sign up and just upload activities manually.
It feels like Garmin have been trying to build up the social side of their offering recently, they've had a few badge challenges in the past few months which seem aimed to get people to use the social features more. Also, they've launched Connect+ this year too. I kinda wonder if this patent trolling is Strava being nervous of Garmin playing in their sandpit.
The key point (Data “attribution”) is the nub of it.
To be clear, this isn’t actually Garmin or Strava’s data, it’s user’s data, captured on Garmin devices and fired to Garmin and Strava servers in exchange for signing some T&Cs that essentially waive ownership.
Strava would die on their arse if we all stopped uploading to them, they don’t have much of a product without their user’s data.
Garmin still generates a good chunk of their revenue from hardware sales, but would certainly be hurt if they sought to block Strava uploading.
They’ve cooperated (commercially) for 15 years or so and in doing so have created a mutually beneficial situation that leverages user’s data to then sell back to them as online services.
Garmin haven’t monetised their online services as aggressively (up until recently), Strava haven’t moved into the hardware side of things, two sides of a business model that was always heading towards this point. With a Strava IPO looming Garmin will be mulling the idea of buying a significant share of Strava (or they should be)… Do Strava want to be bought out by their biggest symbiotic “partner”? Probably, there’s money to be squeezed out of such a union.
Garmin still generates a good chunk of their revenue from hardware sales, but would certainly be hurt if they sought to block Strava uploading.
Garmin also make marine and aviation equipment. No doubt selling gadgets to sports enthusiasts is highly profitable or they wouldn't be doing it but as a company they would probably carry on just fine without this sector. I bought a Garmin entirely for the navigation functionality the integration with Strava is irrelevant to me
No real issue if Garmin do buy Strava or a portion of...but I'd hope it doesn't remove all the data and data results from Garmin Connect that there is now.
I've no interest in Connect+, but I am slightly concerned that this is going to remove content from the existing data feed reports available on the standard Connect.
If they do take Strava on, is this going to speed up the removal of data feed reports?
The data collected from.the devices via sensors and the unit itself will be recorded in the file that is saved. When that is uploaded to Connect, will all the same stats be visible or will they start adding a pay wall to access it - like Strava did...I hope not, but then I'm not using it for any social stuff, so things like leaderboards don't interest me.
Seeing if I've improved my time over sections (segments) would be of interest, but not to go against anyone else.
(Edit, not quite true - I'm part of a couple of challenges with 2 or 3 friends and family to encourage us all to do more exercise...doesn't really work as none of us really pay any attention to it.)
Other than the stopping selling Garmin devices but, this lawsuit really won't impact me. I do think Strava is going to lose this, but I don't think it'll be a clean win.
I also don't know why I'm posting so much on this! I've clearly got an interest in the whole thing, obviously just not as a user (of Strava)...kind of suggests I'm just really nosey.
Yes, I'm aware of TF (and I'm a paid TF subscriber) but as you say, the volume of data isn't there. For better or worse, Strava seems to have down up the "social" element so has that volume of users and therefore data.
Does anyone have any insight to what proportion of activities are recorded, by device manufacturer type? Theres some speculation that Garmin users upload the vast majority of activity data but, as far as I know it's just speculation. There must be a substantial proportion of users who just use the Strava app or use Apple or Samsung watches, whereas I could easily believe that Google/Suunto/Coros/Wahoo/etc users form a small minority.
All these users could be blocked out by any Garmin buy-out....
Trailforks is a much more useful platform for mountain biking / exploring a new area. In France and Spain I’ve found it a great way to explore but it doesn’t seem to have nearly as many trails entered in the UK (and some of what is in there has been gone badly). The ability to add condition reports/issues/comments makes a load of sense for MTB.
strava got there first and was driven by road biking. I don’t know if they’ve changed it again but the minimum segment length they implemented a while back meant a lot of UK trails were too short to be added as segments!
garmin connect is fine but lacks the user base and I can’t see them ever building it unless strava do something stupid like blocking garmin uploads. Analogous to Twitter and enshittification in action. If Strava dumped a load of users would likely just see a fragmented market but Garmin buying it would seem a smart move at the right price. I’d guess it’s probably overvalued though. I’ve always thought their subs premium price is way too high and they’d make a lot more if it was £1 a month rather than £1 a week (only 2% of users are currently premium) although Garmin connect premium is £70 to Strava £54 so I probably don’t know anything
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/strava-statistics/
It is very difficult to get everyone to pay for something that was free before...Garmin Connect+ doesn't (yet!) seems to have stuff that was available for free - the free stuff is all still there and available.
Entirely possible Garmin will just stop the uploads to Strava...I don't see it as a 2-way thing, more Strava gaining.
garmin connect is fine but lacks the user base and I can’t see them ever building it unless strava do something stupid like blocking garmin uploads.
People seem to guess that upwards of 60% of activities on Strava come from Garmin - so I kinda reckon they have the user base, if they wanted to capitalise on it.... or if their hand was forced...
Being so dependent on an external company makes Strava look weak. It's a co-dependency, but Strava needs Garmin more than the reverse, as Garmin is a far larger and more diversified business.
Strava must see the continued development of Connect+ as another move towards the eventual aim of reducing its dependence (and thereby weakening Strava) by setting up a viable alternative platform. It already does everything I need - logs mileage, elevation and activities, and it would only take a small shift of users towards its own segment system to cause harm.
Perhaps Garmin is scenting the opportunity to take control of Strava fully at some point once it becomes a publicly-traded company. It could even be that the current owners see this as inevitable at some point, and just want to prop up the company's value until they get through the IPO.
It's would be amusing to see the way they bullied, or bought out and buried, smaller apps that relied on their data, being revisited on them. There's always a bigger fish.
This thread prompted me to look at Connect a bit more (I've got it but never really look at it). I looked at the segments. They seem OK and I'm only really interested in comparing my own times but one thing seems to be missing - the ability to record a segment as an ebike segment or ride.
I don't mind Strava, getting all those follow requests from young super models makes me feel special.
🙃
Strava must see the continued development of Connect+ as another move towards the eventual aim of reducing its dependence (and thereby weakening Strava) by setting up a viable alternative platform. It already does everything I need - logs mileage, elevation and activities, and it would only take a small shift of users towards its own segment system to cause harm.
Perhaps Garmin is scenting the opportunity to take control of Strava fully at some point once it becomes a publicly-traded company. It could even be that the current owners see this as inevitable at some point, and just want to prop up the company's value until they get through the IPO.
It's would be amusing to see the way they bullied, or bought out and buried, smaller apps that relied on their data, being revisited on them. There's always a bigger fish.
It's all speculation.
And both businesses have contributed to the other's success, people bought a Garmin device because they wanted better recording of activities for Strava, people who owned Garmin kit because of their running or cycling interest were nudged towards taking up a a Strava sub...
Connect+ might be a late attempt to monetise Garmin's user base, or just a pop to scare Strava into doing something rash (seems to have succeeded at the later).
All corporations want to eat their "strategic partners" and competitors, there's market share and efficiencies to be claimed and executives can take credit for such things on their CVs.
Personally I think Garmin are in a stronger position, and TBH I thing Strava probably expected to be bought out by someone else from the online tech sphere sooner (not some dusty old hardware company that they've drifted into having a reliance on). they're a mature enough business now that chasing VC money is out, and being (user) data driven the next thing expected of them is bolting on AI nonsense...
Everything is stable and relatively static both product and market share wise, but free-marketers don't believe in homeostasis, either endless growth or ever-increasing acquisitions.
A suggestion for that - create a new entry under your Gear settings for an ebike. After you record your activity, make sure you set the gear to the right bike.
Isn't as clear cut but can then be filtered on.
I've found that I can go into Connect and change my ride from one of the three options I can choose to ride in on my Garmin Explore 2 ..... this device only lets me choose from - Road, Gravel, Indoor. I chose Gravel (but can rename it on the device as MTB but this doesn't affect how it loads into Connect.... it still loads a Gravel.
Once it's loaded into Connect I can click a dropdown and choose eMountainBiking. Once I've done that I can no longer see a Segments tab and can't see anyway to create an eMTB segment.
None of this matters once it's in Strava as I just change it to eMTB. But on Connect there seems no way to do this and I don't want to contaminate non-ebike segments with my rides. Hope that makes sense and if I've missed something I'd be interested to know.
A suggestion for that - create a new entry under your Gear settings for an ebike. After you record your activity, make sure you set the gear to the right bike.
Isn't as clear cut but can then be filtered on.
I've found that I can go into Connect and change my ride from one of the three options I can choose to ride in on my Garmin Explore 2 ..... this device only lets me choose from - Road, Gravel, Indoor. I chose Gravel (but can rename it on the device as MTB but this doesn't affect how it loads into Connect.... it still loads a Gravel.
Once it's loaded into Connect I can click a dropdown and choose eMountainBiking. Once I've done that I can no longer see a Segments tab and can't see anyway to create an eMTB segment.
None of this matters once it's in Strava as I just change it to eMTB. But on Connect there seems no way to do this and I don't want to contaminate non-ebike segments with my rides. Hope that makes sense and if I've missed something I'd be interested to know.
maybe it’s device dependent but on the 539 I have set up 3 profiles with inch have different screen displays - mtb, e bike and road. I’m guessing I specified the type of bike for each as they automatically go into the right category in Strava and garmin connect.
maybe it’s device dependent but on the 539 I have set up 3 profiles with inch have different screen displays - mtb, e bike and road. I’m guessing I specified the type of bike for each as they automatically go into the right category in Strava and garmin connect.
That may well be right. However, if you then have it set for ebike can you see any segments in your ride and is there a way you can create one?
However, if you then have it set for ebike can you see any segments in your ride and is there a way you can create one?
I can't answer your questions yet but this discussion has made me look at Garmin segments and create one so I can check some of this. You definitely can't create a segment from an e-bike activity, next time I take an e-bike out I will find out whether my segment pops up for me.
I used to like having Strava live segments pop up on my Garmin until Strava took away the downhill ones, it would be great if I can replace them with the Garmin equivalent and also great if I can use the same segment regardless of whether I'm on an e-bike or regular bike
Garmin segments do pop up as you approach them....biggest issue I've found so far is recreating them...I'm not sure the GPS points are the same as they are on Strava and it allows you to jump between each point that is recorded - useful to have recording as every second and not smart.
Not a massive issue really for me as I'm just creating them for my own reference, but if Garmin Connect grows and people start adding segments I hope Garmin will flag when a segment already exists and will prevent the multiples of very similar route as found on Strava.
biggest issue I've found so far is recreating them...I'm not sure the GPS points are the same as they are on Strava
for my personal use I'm not too worried, I just liked seeing how my time compared to my previous best once I'd passed the end of a segment.
if Garmin Connect grows
Can't see it happening unless Strava manage to completely destroy themselves and even then I'd hope Trailforks were more likely to fill the gap
I'd hope Trailforks were more likely to fill the gap
That's definitely never going to happen. Garmin Connect is probably the only serious contender to Strava, because multi-sport. Even if it was just cycling, trailforks wouldn't get a look-in, it'd be komoot or rwgps.
Even if it was just cycling, trailforks wouldn't get a look-in
It was a rather optimistic comment on my part but Trailforks are trying to be multi activity and are at least not tied to any device manufacturer. But really, if it took off I’m sure Outside would start the ‘enshitification’
Can't see it happening unless Strava manage to completely destroy themselves…
Well if the previously reported estimate is true a large (more than half?) chunk of “Strava’s” data comes from Garmin devices, Garmin’s products are ubiquitous and their customers mostly use connect for uploading by default.
I don’t believe most people are “curating” their activity history on both connect and strava, I know I just upload to connect and let it push the data on to strava, I only edit and share information via Strava because most of my friends that do cycling and other sports use it and it’s SM functionality was what differentiated Strava earlier on. Garmin could buy out strava, gradually turn connect orange and merge the two apps and ther would be some whinging but so long as they kept calling it ‘strava’ it would carry on.
Trying to compete might work, but it’s never going
To yield the same market share, and they’ll never manage to steal acquire the data of non-Garmin users, buy strava out and they get a bonus ~40% more yummy exploitable user data…
…and even then I'd hope Trailforks were more likely to fill the gap
Really? that buggy sack of crap is barely any use to it’s own target audience (things may have improved since I last tried it TBF). They may not be perfect but Strava and Garmin’s mapping and routing features are relatively good and cover multiple types of activities.
These days the expected features include a social media feed, mapping, heatmaps, rout finders, data analysis, etc. very few other apps offer all of that, and any that do probably rely access to Strava APK access.
One way out of it would surely be for Garmin to open up the operating system of their devices. Just build an OS that does the bare minimum of connecting to ant+ / BT devices, collates data then allows 'apps' to operate on the device using that data. You could then download an app that worked for your type of riding:
Komoot - leisure / audax / whatever
Trailforks - Rad dudes
Strava - cycling clubs and stravasholes.
e.g if I was heading out on a 300km audax or bikiepacking adventure I could open the komoot app and the route would be there, the routing would all be done by komoot, etc, etc. If I was heading out on a roadie clubrun then I'd open Strava and it would sync the route from the clubs page, and because everyone else was using the same 'app' the live tracking would actually work. N0o one i know actually uses garmin group ride because there is no integration with strava which seems to be where group rides are now advertised and the routes published.
If they actually did that and it worked I might even contemplate paying the 'premium' subscription to the apps I wanted. But the current setup is just infuriating enough to make me resent paying any of them.
N0o one i know actually uses garmin group ride because there is no integration with strava which seems to be where group rides are now advertised and the routes published.
FWIW we're using Spond for club rides. It does invites, registrations, attachments, photos, calendar and so on. Then it's up to folk which of the other platforms they want to record with/upload to. We certainly have folk who don't use/don't want to use either Strava or Connect.
One way out of it would surely be for Garmin to open up the operating system of their devices...
Isn’t that the point of connect IQ?
there’s third party apps and data fields galore available to download on there.
Don't you just set up the Strava/Connect integration and star the route on Strava?
You can, but Garmin (and I assume wahoo) will for example overlay all the other people who've joined the group ride on the map so you can see if people are a no-show or just around the corner, if they've been dropped and taken a wrong turn, stopped with a mechanical etc.
FWIW we're using Spond for club rides. It does invites, registrations, attachments, photos, calendar and so on.
Yea, that's basically how we as a club use strava, there's a handful of members that don't but I suspect at this stage we'd have more eye rolling with yet another app than staying put.
Strava (not surprisingly) drops its lawsuit against Garmin.