You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I've a couple of trails near me that are pretty steep (you'd struggle to walk up them, that sort of steep) My "technique" for these I reckon could be improved, I pretty much mostly make it down, but it's all a bit hit and miss, I end up with rear wheel locked up, or front washing out, or stuttering around the corners, or belting around them in a way that's a bit out of control, foot off the pedal sort of affair...
What's the best way of dealing with these. Yes practice practice practice...but what to practice?
I mostly just panic and hope for the best. I’m sure someone with better technique will be along shortly!
I mostly just panic and hope for the best. I’m sure someone with better technique will be along shortly!
Amen to that 🙂
For me it's all about planting my outside foot and pedal down the hill. You really want to push that grip into the dirt with your outside foot.
Flick from turn to turn, and rotate the cranks to stamp that outside foot down, keeping your body upright, weight central.
Try not to skid. A skidding tyre is not a gripping tyre. Feather the brakes, keep your stance loose with the bike able to move around beneath you and stamp that outside foot down!
Like this, demonstrated by this good looking chap.
I mostly just panic and hope for the best
Pretty much. Having the faith to let go of the brakes and point the bike in the right direction. TBH I'd only have a go if there was a decent run out afterwards. If it immediately ran into another feature after the bend I'd be off and walking.
Don't put all your weight to the rear, as we all tend to do on steeps, you still need weight as central/forward as you can, or your front wheel will wash out.
When corner move your body into the turn from your hips and put pressure through the bars with your inside hand.this is good general cornering technique but should be equally important if not more on steep corners.dont be scared of learning your bike over
When it works for me it's down to keeping the bike rolling. Get high, open the corner out as much as you can and get the turning done as much as possible before you hit the steep section. Keeping your wheels turning maintains the grip and smooth radius prevents washouts.
I don't know if it is 'good' technique but a bit like skiing I find my trigger moves are mainly around looking around the corner at where I want to go rather than down at my wheel. Almost like a direction arrow right out of the front of my chest, so your shoulders and upper body are pointing where you want and then the hips and bike follow more easily.
I'd love to be able to endo round too, but while I can still just about do that on flat ground the response to too far is to let the brake off and roll out and so when doing that on a corner, to know your two escapes are to let the brake off and roll over the edage of the corner, or don't and go over the front anyway....... sometimes mincing down on foot wins.
Lazer cock
Roll in smoothly, high line, turn the hips, feel the front wheel slide slightly, panic and touch the brake, complete the corner on my arse.
Get off and push.
Before I fall off and die.
Kayak23, looking good, but the trails I'm talking about are 2-3 times as steep as that, you can't really feather the brakes...you'd be doing a million mph in seconds...
If its very steep, then its a bit like snowboarding for me, you turn your body to execute the turn and (hopefully) the bike comes round underneath you. Back wheel still turning just (not locked). Weight back, Pedals level. If a bit shallower (like in the above vid) then outside foot down and centred.
Kayak23, looking good, but the trails I’m talking about are 2-3 times as steep as that, you can’t really feather the brakes…you’d be doing a million mph in seconds…
Yes, that was just to show what I meant with the feet, but the technique still stands. Outside foot planted down allows you to stamp into any available grip and keep upright. Instead of rolling into the turn as pictured, you're more flicking into it like a skier, due to the steepness.
Some sections are so steep that you cannot stop. You can brake, but you cannot stop, so my feathering the brakes still stands. You're using as much brake as you can before the tyre breaks away. Sometimes you just have to point and shoot with as much control as you can. You cannot slow every section to a virtual stop.
Walking.
yeah body movement, rather than bike finesse I think...
edit for Kayak's response, yeah...did I mention the rut...there's a rut. A big wheel grabbing rut thing... but I get what you're saying
Not exactly my area of expertise, but I tend to "reverse feather" the brakes, ie. have them mostly full on, releasing a bit of speed here and then.
And, as above, just try to look where I want to go and stay as relaxed as poss.
I hate steep corners with rocks/roots/drops involved mid-turn though.
I am quite bad for locking the rear and getting my weight back, I have to remind myself to keep some weight on the front and then off, on , off, on the rear brake to avoid it becoming a sledge or cooking the brakes!
Do you want to carry speed through the corners or just get around them?
Look here:
Previous thread with a good video
And maybe here:
Skills with Phil - switchbacks
@kayak23 that’s my local. It’s pretty steep in places, loose and roots too. I guess you’re not getting up there at the moment?
yeah I can do the switchbacks that Phil is demo'ing there, these trails are steep (did I mention they're steep?) If you're waking up, you'd be on your hands and feet type steep, and the first turn is essentially a rut, so there's no "making the turn wider" going on, as the rear wheel will drop into the rut, and you're off.
I can make the first turn all ok, but the second turn goes the other way, and is right after the first, so in a bike's length or so, I need to lean the bike all the way over the other way and commit...to the really* steep run off.
* which makes the rest of it look kinda tame...the chute at the end is damn near vertical
Lazer cock
That is up there with the great things I've learned from this place
What works for me is trying to get my weight further forward than my brain is comfortable with and talking to myself about my front brake.. corner/off, back on if needs be, corner/off, back on if needs be. Back brake wise, I like to keep it on a touch and find it useful to slide the back end around sometimes to tighten the turn.
I agree with the hip thing and I like my outside pedal down.
@kayak23 that’s my local. It’s pretty steep in places, loose and roots too. I guess you’re not getting up there at the moment?
Only been there the once actually. It's not THAT close to me (Leamington Spa) but it was a nice bit of woods. It's more usual that I go past it on my motorbike, wanging it up Fish Hill! 😊
coming from down south where its all a bit flat i find that i have to move further back on teh bike than i normally would (as its just not that steep here). once i start doing this, usually the second or third run, its easy and i`ve way more control. too much weight on the front wheel/bars and my puny desk-jocky shoulders cant cope. weight through balanced the pedals, loose upper body, lazer cock, look where you want to end up.
Depends on the corner obviously, but you see a lot of people aim for the apex and run out of trail, barely turning past 45deg before riding off the edge.
So I'd say, make sure your front wheel goes as high up the trail as you can on the entry then let it follow the outside of the bend as you look round the corner att he middle of the exit, that way there's plenty of room for the rear wheel to follow it on the inside.
That and off the brakes as always, if you do need to keep speed down, brake into the corner, release the front brake as you move the front wheel up the hill before the corner and let it fall down the corner, then release the back brake before the half way point.
That and off the brakes as always
I feel I'm not adequately doing justice to just how steep this trail is, trust me when I say, it's a "brakes on as much as possible without the tyres locking up" kinda gig...There is no brakes off option.
Tried it today, and had kayak23 in mind when I used hips and a bit of point and shoot while trying not to speed up too much, it's still not pretty but I've a better starting point now I reckon.
@ the OP... Do you have a dropper post fitted?
Crucial thing I learnt a long time ago from a certain zen like forum member, was get the seat out of the way (way before dropper posts were a thing) and to get your weight low and central to the bike. Don't be tempted to get your weight off the back of the bike, you'll unweight the front tyre and lose any directional and braking control. It might seem counterintuitive at first, but try and stay low and central to the bike, you'll retain far more control...
Outside foot down in the corners always... Helps keep the weight low and central, precisely where it's needed.
Don't lock the brakes. A locked tyre is doing nothing for either braking or directional control.
Turn your hips/shoulders/head to where you want to go and the bike will follow.
More often than not, speed is your friend. Attempting to do something that seems impossible at a snails pace, particularly if it's really steep, can be made a lot easier by carrying some momentum into the section. Obviously this requires a little commitment though, so you need to be happy doing so. But once you're happy clearing a section slowly, try it again and again but a bit faster each time, you'll be shocked how much easier it is taken with a little momentum.
I used to have a severe fear of anything particularly steep, these days I'll ride just about anything. There's a couple of sections in the Forest of Dean that have vertical roll ins for a few feet and I'm happy dropping in on those now where 15 years ago I wouldn't have even looked at them twice. Many of my favourite trails are now the kind of steep techy off camber natural loamy trails that I'd have been off and walking down even 10 years ago...
Only been there the once actually. It’s not THAT close to me (Leamington Spa) but it was a nice bit of woods. It’s more usual that I go past it on my motorbike, wanging it up Fish Hill! 😊
I need to get up there with my MTB. Have heard the trails off the side are pretty good. Have lived within 30mins of Fish Hill most of my life, and gone up and down it countless times in a car or on a motorbike, and even cycled up the minor roads up the side on a road bike several times too, but never thought to take an MTB over there.
wow, thanks Mboy! what a post, there's so much here to think about, nice one. 🙂
I think the issue isn't fear, I'm not worried about falling or anything like that, and I can mostly "do" the trail, I just wanted (I think) to see if there's something obvious that I should be doing that I'm not now, and I think just having folk set out the "rules" just reminds one to get out of the habit of just getting it done, and into the habit of properly riding it. But cheers, lots to think about here.
All good advice here, but Id add, especially on loose ground, is that the right tyre with decent shoulder tread on it really helps!
For me, its about planting my inside cheek into the dirt and pivoting around my face.
wow, thanks Mboy! what a post, there’s so much here to think about, nice one.
No worries. If you haven't already, I'd suggest when all this Coronavirus crap is over, get a day or two's coaching. A decent coach will deconstruct the way you ride, and aim to get rid of any bad habits you currently have by instilling the correct technique. That's all I did!
The key then is then making sure you religiously practice what you've learnt every time you get the opportunity, and don't let the bad habits creep back in. Don't get me wrong, I'm not troubling the podiums at races, but I'm a lot better rider than I was.
All good advice here, but Id add, especially on loose ground, is that the right tyre with decent shoulder tread on it really helps!
Confidence in your tyres is one thing for sure, but the correct technique trumps this. I have a mate who is so quick on the trails, there's literally nothing I can do to keep up. To make matters worse, he is often on old or worn out tyres, or tyres totally inappropriate for the conditions, and he doesn't really notice or care! Copious amounts of natural talent helps here, arguably more than a learned good technique or decent tyres ever will, but seeing as we're looking at tackling the things we can change rather than those we can't... Get some coaching and improve your technique before anything else!
Turn your hips/shoulders/head to where you want to go and the bike will follow.
Lazer Cock.
I think bike setup is an important starting point,make sure your bike is on your side to start with. We are all built differently 'some' may have to raise bars,use the right width bars,run forks with more pressure,shocks with more sag, When that front wheel is dropping away from you on steep corners you still need to have the physical reach to lean the bike and steer it in them moments.
I have relatively long legs/femurs so tend to need to do the above as riding steeps aren't a natural comfortable thing for me -although I still like em....up to a point.
It's always worth looking up footage of Flo Nicolai to see how he deals with it! Obviously Flo's steep or switchback techniques are the "gold standard" way beyond my skill level, but I have found it helpful to capture even a fraction of what he does. In real life, it's unbelievable to see him in action....
Kayak23 For me it’s all about planting my outside foot and pedal down the hill. You really want to push that grip into the dirt with your outside foot.
Oh for god's sake, he's a genius with wood and relatively handy on a bike. This is getting beyond a joke.
And weight should be on the outside bar/grip, not the one you've dropped to the inside of the corner. Let The Don guide the way...
I feel I’m not adequately doing justice to just how steep this trail is, trust me when I say, it’s a “brakes on as much as possible without the tyres locking up” kinda gig…There is no brakes off option.
As mboy said, if the tyres aren't rolling, they're doing nothing.
Slow in, fast out. Get yourself in the right position on the trail, and commit to it.
If you fall off on a steep trail you've got a fair bit of free falling to do before you hit the ground, much safer to do that freefalling bit on the bike and not crash in the first place!
Inside foot back as you go in.
Please stop being evangelical about braking in corners. If you've spent lots of time on consistently steep trails you'll know that on some trails, you need a tickle of brake to control your speed, because it can soon turn into a runaway train if you don't.
The first 20 seconds of this is the best I've got. If I'd let off the rear brake, there's no way I would have made the third turn. I blew it out a couple Of times as it was.
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/472005/
Slow down before the corner. You need your front wheel rolling, but a bit of rear brake is fine. Get the front wheel high and then turn in hard. Watch the front wheel getting as far to the outside at the entrance to each corner as possible.
Beyond that, if you're asking this, it's likely your cornering technique in general might need some work. After lockdown, if you can afford to, get a private session with a decent coach. They'll break everything down and you'll get more enjoyment out of riding after.
(caveat- no speed demon racer here, but there's not much I won't have a -generally successful- crack at)
Assuming we're talking generic woodsy loamy steep stuff, line choice is dictated by where the front wheel will find grip - might be an existing wide rut/berm, might be cut in tight to avoid the shiny rooty horror show (or to hit it square). Don't worry about the back. Do get the front tyre in the right place.
Speed a little bit faster than I'm comfortable with (helps keep the tyres clean), heels down, plenty of weight on the bar, LOOK where you want to end up, stuff 'er in and hang on. Its the looking that makes the difference. So many times I've felt out of my depth, but a confident "head up, look out the corner" approach has got me through in passable control.
The back end will follow where the front goes. There's next to no weight on the rear wheel so a lot of the time it doesn't matter too much if its locked or not. (indeed if you're going inside, letting the back be kicked round by the bank is easier if its locked.) You can almost steer the back end round with your feet as the front exits the corner.
I find which foot is forward doesn't matter too much - if its sustainedly steep, there may well not be time to fit a pedal stroke in between corners anyway!
If we're getting into Alpine hairpins, many of which aren't that steep, just pigging tight (and possibly with monster exposure), it's time to deploy the stoppy and the eurohop, especially if you're riding blind!
See that Don vid up there, at 5.10 when he says "This is as steep as you can ride" the trail's like that, but the run off and set up for the next corner is compressed into a bike's length, rather the oodles of space he's got to set up for the following corner, and the eventual chute to the road finish is not far off a vertical fall line.
You're feathering the rear brake, just to stay in control, but the trail's loose given that it hasn't rained here for weeks, the rear will lock up, nowt you can do about it. Let go of the brake and you're OTB down the side of the hill.
I can get down it, it's just ugly, and I'd like it not to be ugly... I think it's just big boy shorts on, commit, and ride it out.
getonyourrbike and JonEdwards, yeah, you got it, It's just stupid steep, I think I'm trying to finesse it too much and overthinking it. Just gets in the way of sight the exit, aiming, and getting there.
Lazer (as they say) cock
See that Don vid up there, at 5.10 when he says “This is as steep as you can ride” the trail’s like that, but the run off and set up for the next corner is compressed into a bike’s length, rather the oodles of space he’s got to set up for the following corner, and the eventual chute to the road finish is not far off a vertical fall line.
Must admit to Donny making me laugh here when he said that... I've ridden LOTS steeper and tighter than that myself, and he's a much better rider than I am! 😂
There's a trail at Staunton, "Camber" I think it's affectionately known as, that the average gradient is in the mid to high 20's over the length of it... And there's periods iin that where you're traversing the camber! There's one switchback that the transition from the first corner to the second isn't even a bike length, and it's on at least a 1 in 1 gradient. I've not cleaned it yet. I've come close... I've seen one or two others that I know who are signifiantly better riders than I am clean it, but I've seen many more people not even get close to making it. One day I'm just gonna hit it, clean it, and shout and scream the rest of the way down! Until then though, it remains my nemesis...
Lazer Cock.
I get it now... 👍🏻 Wasn't immediately obvious... Maybe cos I'm not (generally speaking) riding with a boner myself! 🤷🏻♂️
I think bike setup is an important starting point,make sure your bike is on your side to start with. We are all built differently ‘some’ may have to raise bars,use the right width bars,run forks with more pressure,shocks with more sag, When that front wheel is dropping away from you on steep corners you still need to have the physical reach to lean the bike and steer it in them moments.
I have relatively long legs/femurs so tend to need to do the above as riding steeps aren’t a natural comfortable thing for me -although I still like em….up to a point.
You're not only overthinking it, but you're making excuses ready for when you fail... The correct technique is the correct technique, whether you're on a BMX or a road bike, a DH bike or an XC bike... Or anything inbetween.
The back end will follow where the front goes. There’s next to no weight on the rear wheel so a lot of the time it doesn’t matter too much if its locked or not. (indeed if you’re going inside, letting the back be kicked round by the bank is easier if its locked.) You can almost steer the back end round with your feet as the front exits the corner.
The back end will follow, because it doesn't have any choice! Unless you've snapped the frame in half of course... As for no weight on the rear wheel... Maybe... If you're doing it wrong! Otherwise, I call BS... Sorry, the whole point of getting your weight low and central is to get the weight as even between the axles as possible. Sure, when you're on a steep gradient the weight will naturally shift forwards a little, but if you're locking the rear tyre up it's cos you're braking too hard, not because there's not enough weight on it!
I find which foot is forward doesn’t matter too much – if its sustainedly steep, there may well not be time to fit a pedal stroke in between corners anyway!
That's a personal thing... Some people have a much stronger preference for which foot forwards. But also... It's VERY rare that you will be pointing straight down the fall line on a steep technical trail, which would be pretty much the only time that warranted going feet level. The rest of the time, you will likely be riding along some sort of camber, even if still predominantly downwards, and it's here (just as in cornering) that keeping the outside foot down with the weight through it helps with the stability and control of the bike as your weight is low and central. Riding with either foot forward on a camber was something we only ever did before dropper posts allowed us to get the saddle out of the way and to ride the bike correctly...
The dream.
The reality.
