[Closed] Steel or Titanium?

andyjh - Member

Slack head angles seems to be all the rage right now but with the amount of climbing I do I'm not sure this is what I should be looking for.

It doesn't follow tbh- my Ragley Ti (material coincidental) is s ridiculously good technical climber despite the slackness- better than any bike I've ridden with more trad XC geometry. And for seated climbing, imo as long as it's not wandery or too sitty-up geometry doesn't make [i]that[/i] much difference. For blasting up hills in an XC race, aye but for just getting up hills on a ride, not so much

I'd get the right bike rather than the right material, especially since the feel varies from frame to frame- the Ragley's not a very Ti feeling bike, it's fairly stiff compared to my old classic-ti Soda... And the same's true for steel, you can have stiff dead steel like a 456 or lively springy steel like an older Soul and anywhere inbetween.

The Ros looks awesome but it seems pisstakingly expensive

Ti, IMO..... My Ti 456 was the best HT arround,Sharp, responsive and utterly bombproof......

Will be sadly missed!. 😥

A few years back, wasn't it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Ok, interesting re the slack geo and climbing. Good to hear that I shouldn't notice too much difference, I was a bit concerned as most of my riding involves as much climbing as possible to try and get better so I wouldn't want anything that would hinder it.

Trouble is with these frames, there aren't many shops out there with demos. I'm going to borrow a Kinesis FF29 to get a feel for that but I know it's not really going to tell me what the Sync is like as the material is very different and the geometry is also different.

I was going to get a Ragley BigWig but the current model is sold out everywhere and the new one is not due in until early 2015. If it's then late, which most new bikes are, I could be looking spring before I get a second bike up and riding.

I'm very tempted to just get the Sync but the Niner has caught my eye and seems to be a very nice frame with rav reviews. Both are stupid expensive but I have most of the other parts ready and waiting so in reality it's not going to be a massive build cost.

A few years back, wasn't it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Do you dare to suggest that the Emperor has no cloths

I wouldn't rule out a bike because it was Aluminium

Do you dare to suggest that the Emperor has no cloths

😆

Something like that yes..

The Niner ROS 9 doesn't strike me as a xc bike - a trail bike yes. It has similar geo to the Kona Honzo and 2Souls Cycles frames so fab for rooty, rocky gnarr. It's also not light. For the predominately South Downs riding you describe I'd be looking at the Sync, Solaris, On-one Scandal (2nd hand now) or a SC Highball.

I have two Ti frames and one steel, the steel frame(Singular Hummingbird) is my fave for all day riding

29er Scandal if you can get one. Comfy and light in the 26" flavor and not too expensive although there will be a bit of a premium tax on them now they are no longer being made.

Boring choice but a Fireline will tick all the boxes

The latest slack hardtails are only slack if you put longer travel forks on them like 150-160's. If you put 140's on they will be average and if you put 120's they will be not that slack at all.

Niner does look brilliant but wouldn't get it just because of the ridiculous mark up their frames seem to get over here (even though I would be sorely tempted!)

Sync would be great if the budget allows, otherwise Solaris is the obvious choice.

You're welcome to come and have a go on my large Sync if you're ever in East Anglia. The FF29 is a bit steaper and longer in the chainstays, so more xc racer.

I've had various ti and steel frames and have to agree that it's more about the design than the material. The only real advantages of ti are weight and scrape resistance. That said, the Sync feels more capable in every respect than the Solaris it replaced (which is still my second fave mtb I've owned).

A few years back, wasn't it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Charge Duster. Probably the 'deadest' feeling bike of any material that I have ridden.

PeterPoddy - Member

A few years back, wasn't it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Which says a lot about the Charge bikes but nothing useful about the materials

Thanks Bol for the offer, much appreciated 🙂

The Sync seems to be coming out very well for my type and location of riding. Normally I wouldn't hesitate but it is a huge chunk of cash for a frame so was hoping for some experienced guidance. Many thanks for that 🙂

Will take another look at the Solaris but every time I talk to an owner the first word they say is heavy! They normally go on to say they like it though.

Took a look at the Fireline but again it's out of stock. Equally the Parkwood which I think is a Scandel based frame is also out of stock, for the price I would give that one a try.

Credit card might take a bashing 🙂

ROS9 is a stupid amount of money for a plain cro moly frame.
It took a lot of erring before I bought my older model SIR9 but at least that has 853 tubes.
I was going to suggest the SIR9, but the latest SIR9 could be seen to have had a downgrade with its single 853 tube. 😕
But, everyone who has ridden mine has commented on how well it rides & feels.
Ive ridden a few steel bikes, including owning a first gen Soul. I'd say the Niner feels like a grown up Soul.
Niner certainly know their stuff.

I think there's less than a pound (in weight anyway!) between the Sync and the Solaris.

Looking again at your brief, do you really want to spend a grand and a half on a frame for the winter slop? Having said that, if Ti tickles your fancy then stop dithering and buy it 🙂

Got a 456 ti and never looked back.

Id sooner have a top quality steel bike than an ok Ti one. Have a look a Chromag bikes as well. Will def have something to suit you. Half their bikes are built by Chris DeKerf, the others which have identical geometry with just a slightly cheaper tubeset are welded in Taiwan for half the price but still get great reviews.

On the DeKerf built ones you can choose any colour of paint you want.

I wouldn't say the Solaris felt particularly heavy. Frankly I'd be weary of a steel mtb frame that wasn't a pound heavier than an ally or ti equivalent. I'd also agree with the comment about better a good steel bike than a poor ti one - which is why I'm always surprised when people pay £800+ to get someone to build them a frame out of plain guage ti pipe. The Sync however is one of the most thought through and manipulated ti frames I've seen. The detail reminds me of a beautiful Litespeed I used to have (no it didn't fail before anyone chips in!).

Who builds the Kinesis Sync? Kinesis or a third party?

Would agree on the good steel vs poor Ti but as confirmed above, the Kinesis Sync is a very well made Ti frame so I am comparing good with good.

Take the point about the price and the use in winter but I want to be using this year round and not just be a winter slop bike. Beauty of a hardtail is less maintenance during the winter months than my full sus plus I'll be running 1x10 so again less maintenance. As long as I spec some good headset and BB bearings like Hope it should go through the winter with no worries. I just want to avoid the grind destroying the pivot bearings of my full sus and eating away at my Roval wheel bearings. Again this bike will probably have a set of Hope wheels so it should last and not need stripping post every ride!

Slack head angles seems to be all the rage right now but with the amount of climbing I do I'm not sure this is what I should be looking for.

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

@op this is not ti vs steel IMO, it's a geometry question.

Fast SDW XC (yawn) - Sync.
Surrey Hills fun - ROS9.

Obv. both can do either, I have ride buddies with both, the Sync'er is tempted by a ROS9. Mostly we ride Surrey Hills. I have a frame very similar to the ROS and I'm sold on it too. It'll do XC plenty fine for my needs, and boy the moment the trail has the tiniest bit of down gradient is it fun. I also think 4130 is fine for a trail bike, you don't want it noodly!

The Syncer, a very competent rider, had a few offsies when he first got it due to the sharp head angle tripping him up.

Try and get tests.

Between the 2 I would buy a ROS 9 (well I I bought a close cousin, so I sort of did really) hands down. But I'm not you.

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

Well said.

I ride my Sync all year round, it's a very versatile and very fast bike, the tubing and build quality is top class. Most of my riding is Eastbourne end of South Downs and North Downs/Surrey Hills, just recently swapped the dropper post with a Ti post, mainly for weight and comfort on all day XC rides, ditched the backpack too.

[img] :large[/img]

^^ undeniably a beautiful bike

@ mattjg

Between the 2 I would buy a ROS 9 (well I I bought a close cousin, so I sort of did really) hands down.

http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/nimble-9

ah! good choice

It's bloody lovely, and maybe a tad less gnarly then the ROS9, but don't quote me on that.

A few years back, wasn't it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Until they picked it up. I think that was actually in STW. Well, chances are high as it's the only mag I buy on a regular basis anyway.

Charge Duster. Probably the 'deadest' feeling bike of any material that I have ridden.

Charge Skinny Duster. Can't level that at it. Not too everyones taste, but I thought it was ace.

Forget the material and get a Trek Superfly.

molgrips - Member

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

You've never seen him on the downlifts?

Agreed, beautiful bike!

Though, for the same or less money you could build a custom steel or ti frame with every little detail specced exactly as you wish and have something a little more personal perhaps? I like the ideal of choosing the frame's practicalities, ride feel and fit so this is an option that would personally appeal to me more (a steel Cyclo Toxto or Amaro or something like that would do nicely) although I don't don't doubt the Soda and Sync are great frames too.

@mattjg, thanks, that's really good feedback. To be honest the material question was a bit of a red herring and the real question was between the styles of bikes, geometry as you say.

Thinking about what you have said I am now edging towards the Niner, or perhaps even a Nimble 🙂 The reason being is my current bike is a short travel full sus, BMC Fourstroke, 100mm rear, 120mm front with 70d head angle, basically a slightly softened XC racer. The Sync seems to be very close to this and I will end up with two bikes very similar. Therefore the ROS9 will offer me something very different. It will be interesting as to which one I would take to Surrey Hills, full sus or HT for downhill fun?

OK good, hope I helped.

N9 vs ROS9 - not much in it AFAIK. N9 has sliders, R9 has an EBB. Geo is very similar I think. Possibly the R9 is a bit more burly.

There's a comment in the Bikeradar review of the R9 about how it feels like it has a few mm of rear travel and the rear wheel sticks to the ground (they even wondered if they had a flat), the N9 feels exactly like that too. It's certainly more easy going in the rear than my Yelli Screamy, bit I'd never call it noodly..

The current N9 has a 27.2 seat tube, so if a dropper is important to you make sure you can get one. I use an XFusion HiLo. It's a medium and I'm in Dorking if you want a go. Up until very recently they were 30.9 I think, mine was almost the first 27.2 in the UK.

Pic and musings on travel of my N9 are here: http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/canfield-nimble-9-build-thread-725555-74.html#post11537955 (appeals to STW for linking to MTBR, I wouldn't do that if you did pic hosting!)

My friend has a steel grey ROS9, it's gorgeous too. I'd settle for either. I only ever rode it around Westcott Green for a minute so can't really give a first hand ride report but expect it's not much different to my N9.

The Sync - I was disappointed when it was released that it wasn't more trail geo, that's what I was expecting. if it had been I'd have bought one. Everyone who has one loves it and it's a thing of beauty. I think it probably takes a more skilled pilot, riding closer to the edge of the envelope, to get the best out of it (compared to the ?9s) and in the right hands it will always be a rocket.

Nobody really "needs" a boinger for Surrey Hills, unless perhaps they're doing all those bonkers gap jumps. I don't do that tho my buddy on the R9 does. I do all the known trails and some of the lesser known ones happily on the N9, it's way more capable than I am.

Let us know how you get on.

ps yeah I know about those ugly braided brake hoses, they're gone now!

Cheers Matt once again. The only concern I have for the ROS9 is the Biocentric bottom bracket thingy, how well will that last? Will it start creaking? A bit new to know what it's going to be like after a few months of winter riding. So the N9 is a bit more straight forward I guess with the sliders.

Did you get yours from Charliethebikemonger? Or via a different route? For the ROS9 I believe QuestAdventures in Worthing deal with Niner so will go talk to them.

Thanks for the link, will do a bit of reading.

As the Sync is very similar to my current bike geometry I assume I will settle into to it fairly well but to drop that amount of money and then be disappointed would be a crime!

I am thinking of running 140mm forks on either bike. The guys at Kinesis have confirmed the Sync rides well like this and obviously slakens of the head a bit more although it does raise the BB by 10mm. Would love to get a demo on one but no such luck with that bike. Both the ROS and N9 also say they will run 140mm, what are you running?

I'd take a look at Singular too, a Swift or a Buzzard would suit, both sorted steel frames and offer the two geo options you're considering.

Saying that, in our extended riding group around Brighton there's a Sync, FF29 and a couple of Solaris's too; all seem well liked and are quick up and down around Stanmer Woods and the Downs. The Sync looks lovely in the flesh and not as XC-bias as some are suggesting, particularly run with 140mm forks and a dropper post.

My buddy with the ROS 9 has a bunch of Niners inc. an SS A9C, he rides them hard all year, I've never heard him complain about the EBBs.

Yeah my N9 came from CTBM but I think Canfield have a new importer now, it was an STW news item a few weeks ago. Some people get them from the German importer too.

I just switched my N9 from 120mm Rebas on Crests to 140mm Revs on Flows, I'm totally sold on the change, it's a fast, precise, planted, tolerant bike with a bit of forgiveness too. That could be as much down to the stiffer wheels and forks as much as the travel, I don't know. See a thread I made here a few days ago and the MTBR link for more info.

I think the 'hardcore' rep. of long travel HT's gets over-egged, really they're just good fun, forgiving, do anything bikes. You don't have to be some kind of tattooed hucker in a pot helmet to enjoy them. So maybe a slightly lighter bike would get me to the top of the climb a few seconds sooner. Really, who cares.

I didn't know the Sync was rated for 140mm forks - worth a look too I'd say. My friend who has one runs 120.

I had a Swift, it's very versatile but I found it a bit dull for trail riding. Good for XC, touring, packing etc, and people do win races on them.

Another friend has a Buzzard, he loves it and it's outstanding value. He has an issue with it throwing the chain that's he's never resolved to his satisfaction. For me it doesn't have the wow factor of the N9/R9, but that's me being a bit fickle - it's a fraction of the price! It also can't do SS out of the box, R9/N9 can.

Kona Raijin - beautiful (and very capable) ride with a 120 fork. Decent money and made by Lynskey

I could never bring myself to buy another Niner, they're just not worth it. Not when there's lots of other stuff out there. Niner gear makes for very pretty internet pics though 🙂

hey isn't it great having so many brilliant bikes to choose from! 🙂

I'm no riding god, but I certainly don't find the Sync a handful on descents. At 140 it would slacken off a degree or so too. Having bought bikes which are slacker and then finding they don't really work for the majority of my riding, I would caution against buying something much slacker than you currently ride, unless you're going to change your riding too. For wiggly single track where I have most fun, the Sync is amazing.

Sorry to throw another name into the pot ,but have you looked at Kindom bike?
Ti frames with the sort of geo. you want.The Vendetta2 is £999.
They will also customize the angles ect if required.

Oops sorry just seen you dont want 650 wheels so kingdom bike is out.
However another brilliant suggestion would be to look at Travers Bikes.They make loverly looking Ti frames,about £1250 if memory serves.

get enigma steel or ti and spec your own angles, win win thats what I did and have not regretted it. went for steel with slightly slacker head angle and max of 140 fork, run it at 120-130 most of time

If you already have a full bouncer then fuly rigid is a good choice - even less maintainence, more of a contrast with your other bike, and you don't need suspension for South Downs riding anyway.

A Ti or steel Jones, or a Stooge would fit the bill!

I always enjoy these threads where the OP starts with a choice of 2 and ends with a choice of 10.

I was also going to suggest a Stooge

I know it looks like a rigid, but in real life it isn't 🙂

Yeah it is! Good at what it's made for though.

That Kona Raijin looks lovely. Nicer price and a lifetime warranty too.

Steel, and a custom fit. Built up with quality bearings and you'll always have a no worries bike. Full sus definitely worth keeping as well....

[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/15385932661_e275ce93c3_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/15385932661_e275ce93c3_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[url= https://flic.kr/p/prAVK4 ]Here's the mighty @kinesisbikes_uk #sync baking in the sun on yesterday's ride #MTB #tilushness #titanium[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/52769476@N00/ ]South Downs MTB Skills[/url], on Flickr

Sounds like we ride in exactly the same places, I can confirm the Sync is a great tool for the job! How tall are you? Mine is a medium. if you want to meet up for a ride and have a twiddle on my Sync I'm sure it could be arranged.....

@andyjh - assume you know the small sync is 650b?

I'm no riding god, but I certainly don't find the Sync a handful on descents. At 140 it would slacken off a degree or so too. Having bought bikes which are slacker and then finding they don't really work for the majority of my riding, I would caution against buying something much slacker than you currently ride, unless you're going to change your riding too. For wiggly single track where I have most fun, the Sync is amazing.

This in spades!

Here's mine after a minor refresh last week...

[img] ?oh=24230cea161c4af0ef9861dd1388c6b5&oe=54E302A5[/img]

I've owned a huge number of bikes over the last 20 years or so, many have followed whatever the latest fashion has been, some haven't. I've owned LT/burly/overbuilt/slack HT's before and usually find for my riding, they're not warranted and/or they're less fun.

That said though, the Sync isn't steep compared to some. It's also remarkably planted and confidence inspiring on descents, more than the numbers would suggest. It's only about 1/2 a degree steeper than a Cotic Solaris which I very much doubt you'd notice. What you do notice over the Cotic (aside from the hefty premium!) is the bolt through rear axle adding stifness, the 1lb drop in weight, vastly more tyre/mud clearance (despite the stays being 2mm shorter on the Sync it can fit a Hans Dampf in with room to spare) and of course it's made of Ti! :-p

I knew I'd love the Sync before I rode it, it's everything I wanted in a HT. If it was ally, or steel I'd still have bought it, the fact it's Ti is kind of by the by (except for the price, though it is also exceptionally well designed and made compared to just about every other Ti frame I've ever seen). If the FF29 had a bolt thru back end, sub 440mm stays, and a touch off the head angle, I'd have bought one happily. That said though, the FF29 is another bike that rides incredibly well in spite of the on paper numbers. Both bikes that really need a good test ride to appreciate I'd say. I've lent my Sync to a few people, and everyone has come back raving about it. The one who raves about it the most is the one who can't see the point in Titanium, rides full sus out of preference, and isn't totally sold on 29ers. In his words "I don't know what it is about that bike, but if I could only own one bike, that would be it"... Touche!

For general singletrack riding, I'd struggle to find a better bike to be honest. But it's also exceptionally capable when the going gets rougher, I've ridden mine down some of the old DH tracks at the FoD faster than on a full sus, I spent several days at Glentress on it where it only got slightly fatiguing towards the end not being on a full sus (hardly a fault of the bike, Glentress can be pretty rough in places on the Red/Black routes). It's also been up and down Snowdon, and been to many trail centres. Not once did I think I was on the wrong bike, which coming from me is saying something!

Anyway... I live nowhere near you otherwise I'd offer you a go on mine. Suggest that if you're close enough to another willing volunteer, you buy them a couple of pints for their trouble and have a go on one! You won't regret it.

@andyjh we're not making it easy for you are we?

Charge Duster. Probably the 'deadest' feeling bike of any material that I have ridden.
Charge Skinny Duster. Can't level that at it. Not too everyones taste, but I thought it was ace.

Think it was a 2011 model. Geometry was spot on for me, but somehow I just couldn't sense any liveliness at all. If it was the skinny Duster built with Tange Prestige I honestly cannot see how it was so wooden - but there you are.

Hmm that or this...

[img] [/img]

I do like this game!

Assume steel is now out the picture and we're talking Ti 🙂

Lovely bike that Sync above!

Arrggghhhh!!! Lol 🙂

Can't read and digest this all yet as stuck in an all day meeting. Sitting at the back though so I can browse through this all 🙂 so many choices, all good though.

Picking up on a couple of questions, yes I'm aware the Sync is 650b in small but I would need a large being 6ft.

Funny that the price of Niner frames gets mentioned a few times as being stupid high but it seems to be the same as the N9 and other interesting frames, and a lot less than the Sync.

The Singular looked good geo and price wise until I noticed they took 20-30mm off the top tube creating a really short bike with major slack head angle, don't think that works.

Considering 99% of my riding is South Downs with only two trips to Surrey Hills, two to Stanmer, one to Afan, I do wonder if the Sunc running 140mm forks to slacken it off a tadge would work very well most of the time??

As said, so many choices is great. Will carry on reading above again and probably change my mind again, lol

buy one of each

Funny that the price of Niner frames gets mentioned a few times as being stupid high but it seems to be the same as the N9 and other interesting frames, and a lot less than the Sync.

I think this is partly a Jungle Products reputation thing. Usually seem to change the dollar sign on the MSRP to a pound then add on another 10%. Looks like for the ROS9 it's too bad though... but still, 900 quid for a cro-mo frame from a pseudo-boutique brand does seem a bit steep.

Funny that the price of Niner frames gets mentioned a few times as being stupid high but it seems to be the same as the N9 and other interesting frames, and a lot less than the Sync.

ROS 9 is bog standard butted chromo and £150 more then the Canfield Nimble 9.

If you are considering these think about a Kona Honzo - same geo and used to be available frame only for about £450. Or get a 2 Souls QH - about £900 but 853 and rides brilliantly.

I pick my custom Curtis 29er up next week. 2 sets bottle bosses, BSA BB, long TT, short ST (low TT for lever clearance plus more seat post for comfort)1" HT, 27.2mm seat post, standard dropouts and 69.5 head angle all in 853/columbus. ie you get to choose exactly what you want.

I spoke to a custom builder last year, I was looking for a steel Yelli equivalent (which the N9 and R9 virtually are). They couldn't make the short chainstays which are an essential feature of the geo (presumably because they only have straight tubes to work with) so I stopped at that point - "you get to choose exactly what you want" didn't apply to me.

As for the costs of the US imported frames, yeah it's bonkers. But whatever, we're not getting any younger are we?

FWIW I'd quite like to try a Sync @ 140mm!

Oh, well if we're getting the gratuitous Sync pics out, here's mine (with forks at 110 as it turns out):
[URL= http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab266/olibolio/bikes/Sync/41047E59-3743-4737-B57E-BE10CB49F2F7_1.jp g" target="_blank">http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab266/olibolio/bikes/Sync/41047E59-3743-4737-B57E-BE10CB49F2F7_1.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

any excuse, it's only a matter of time before Takis green SIR9 shows it's face ..

Hmm that or this...

[img] [/img]

I do like this game!

Assume steel is now out the picture and we're talking Ti

Here's mine - a prancer on the trail...

[img] [/img]

So bonesetter - if you could keep just one bike, which would it be? 🙂

Hmm, lovely gratuitous bike pics in this thread now 🙂

@mboy, many thanks for that Sync feedback. I would say with that and Jim's input I am fairly safe going for a Sync with the type of riding and location I ride in. Add in the 140mm fork option to slacken off the angles and it could turn out to be very interesting. @matt, I'll let you know if I go this way and you can swing a leg over 🙂

That Kona Ti frame looks very nice as well, will do a bit more investigation of that one. Not so sure on the Honza frame though, seems very heavy from everything I've read.

Decisions decisions 🙂

@andyjh I'm six foot and on a medium, albeit with a lot of seatpost showing. I do have unfeasibly long legs though.

Ive been watching this thread and the other sync threads because I really want a ti ht but funds only allowed me the ff29 🙁

That ^ Kona however... Don't think I've ever seen a bike as good looking as that!

As Hummerlicious suggests, be careful of sizing. I'm on a large at 6'4", and it certainly doesn't feel too small.

Titanium explained Italian style

I'm on a large at 6'4", and it certainly doesn't feel too small.

I think you can demo kinesiology at rule five bikes Brighton.

Clink - Member
So bonesetter - if you could keep just one bike, which would it be?

The Ti Stooge of course 🙂