[Closed] Steel hardtail frame weights

my medium cotic soul mk2 was just over 2 kilos.

some more frames here for comparison

BFe max in large is listed @ 6.1 lbs so that does seem to be quite a portly frame.

That is at the heavier end of the scale but not outrageously so, I have an Onza  Jackpot that is probably a couple of hundred grams more.

I think my Stooge MK4 frame was around 2.6kg.

You want heavy? My DMR Bolt Long frame is 4.1kg 😆

Feels like a Bontrager "pick two" moment. Back in the day before hardtails were hardcore & CEN, I'd say 4.5lb was a good weight for an XC/Trail steel frame which I think frames like the Soul were advertised as but now days Id say 6lbs+ is more the norm

(without having ridden one) I don't get the point of steel hts these days. Back in the day the flex was the charm.

Kind of agree with nuke - except you can't choose light anymore.

My Marino isn't super light but as I bought it as a hardcore hardtail I don't really care, I haven't actually weighed it but I don't have any real comparison anyway. As I went from a MK2 BFe with 420mm reach to 510mm reach, there is quite a bit more steel involved

Yeah, I appreciate it is fairly cheap (for custom steel anyway) at £399 delivered for the frame (no paint). So I’d take strong over light to go alongside cheap tbf. Just wondered how it compared to similar frames - this one feels built to last with gussets at the headtube / downtube / top tube junctions then seat tube / top tube junctions, there’s also an extra tube welded between seat stay and chainstay by the post mount brake. Also an extra iscg05 chainguide mount.

Get on and ride 😉
I don't know the weight of my Trailstar and don't care. Come to that don't know the weight of any of my bikes

My Solaris is around 4.75Lbs, not silly heavy but feels noticably heavier than my titanium El Mariachi. Yours does seem chunky by comparision

) I don’t get the point of steel hts these days. Back in the day the flex was the charm.

Still is.

without having ridden one

Yep, I thought the same, depends on the frame though. I can REALLY feel mine especially off big drops ..

Curtis state that their M/L AM9 is 2.26kg if that’s any help. Similar kind of bike (just a tad more expensive). DMR claim the Trailstar is 2.8kg (no idea what size but I never thought of them as a light bike).

Tom kp

DMR claim the Trailstar is 2.8kg (no idea what size but I never thought of them as a light bike).

Probably a medium.

I also own a Trailstar in XL. I suspect it's a similar weight to your Marino.

My last generation 18" 4130 Ragley Bigwig frame was just a smidge under 3.2kg with headset, BB and seat collar fitted so 3.1kg doesn't seem to bad.

My Genesis Tarn was about a metric tonne if that helps!

How well butted are those tubes on the Marino?

Also remember, bitd when frames weighed 4lb or so, they were designed around 26” wheels, which requires less metal in seat\chainstays\forks. Modern frames require a beefed up front end to deal with the extra leverage from those longer forks.
Steel is heavy, so all those little bits soon add up.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it tbh, it’s the ride that matters.
I’ve ridden boat anchors that felt absolutely fine when ridden, I’ve also ridden bikes that felt special when hoisted in the ‘car park’ test, but were utterly uninspiring to ride.

Stanton told me their Sherpas (in either flavour) come in at 5.6 lb/2.54 kg. However as I ordered mine 19 weeks ago and still don’t have it, I can’t verify!

As martymac says, it's the ride/ fit that counts. Some frames feel like anchors but ride light,others can feel that they have no 'ping and are glued to the ground.

Maybe one of the commercial frame designers on here can confirm, but I thought this was a consequence of the CEN standards that came in a few years ago and the stupidly excessive strength tests that came with them.

Although that won't apply to a Marino frame, that's just a boat anchor. 😁

How well butted are those tubes on the Marino?

I believe they’re meant to be double butted 4130 - but I upgraded to Reynolds 725. I assume still double butted - but how much of the tube is the thinner steel and what gauge the steel actually is, is anyone’s guess 🤷‍♂️

I trial built the bike up pre-paint and without pedals or cables it comes in bang on 28lbs which isn’t much different to my previous Sentier. But then this has carbon bars / carbon cranks / fancy light hubs and lighter rims which have basically offset the extra frame weight. Would imagine it’s going to ride fairly light on that basis (compared to my full suss which is 32lbs)- hopefully it’s a bit more comfy than the Sentier with some steel flex and bigger tyres.

FYI butting is part of 725's spec.

As far as I'm aware CEN doesn't apply to custom or racing frames.

When I looked recently you were looking around 2.5kg for a xc orientated frame and moving up to 3kg or more for the burlier models.

The Scandal which is aluminium has a weight of about 2kg. The Ti Signal is just over 2kg for reference.

I'd guess the Sentier would be somewhere around the 2kg mark.

A hardtail frame only a pound lighter than a full sus, yikes.

Stanton list the Switch9er at 2.65kg.

My Nordest Bardino is 4130.  2.85kg / 5.84lbs in Med-Large. Bit heavier than my M SolarisMax v2 but it will take 170mm forks. Built up with beefy 29x2.6 tyres and a Lyrik, it's just under 30lbs.

When I got my 4130 Marino I didn't really notice the weight when I took it out of the box but when I stripped my mk1 Switchback for parts to build it I sort of noticed that the Switchback frame felt like it might be a [i]bit[/i] lighter (the Switchback's seat tube looks like it'll be lighter than the Marino's). It doesn't really matter because the Marino rides really nicely and it looks like it'll be here keeping the cockroaches company when everything goes to shit plus I reckoned that once I'd nailed all the bits onto the Marino the extra few hundred grams (please note the metric units- pounds are what you spend not what you weigh 😉 ) or whatever would just get lost in the noise, especially with Mudhuggers and a rack fitted as well 😆

Now my Pole Taival is dismantled, I just weighed the frame at 2.85kg including rear axle and a spare mech hanger taped to the frame.

Thats a medium but is kinda equivalent to most other brands Large.

A hardtail frame only a pound lighter than a full sus, yikes.

Its been this way since CEN tbh, especially for 'trail' bikes.

The final Cotic Soul frames were only 2kg but that’s Reynolds 853, was carefully designed by an engineer and refined over generations of production. Long wheelbase, rated for 140mm forks and 27.5 wheels. The current BFe (heat treated 4130 and 160mm forks) is 2.8kg

You’d need a very experienced builder to make a custom frame this light with a decent warranty, and obviously that wouldn’t come cheap!

Maybe one of the commercial frame designers on here can confirm, but I thought this was a consequence of the CEN standards that came in a few years ago and the stupidly excessive strength tests that came with them.

It was an influence. CEN tests made it harder for a steel frame to pass at a reasonable weight, the methods for the fatigue tests being the main issue. There were (prob still are) a few factories that just told companies to add material to solve the problem.
CEN tests also came in around the same time that 120mm+ forks were becoming normal for a hardtail and the tubes have since got beefed up more to suit short stems, big bars and bigger forks.

3kg for a burly HT doesn't seem crazy heavy. 2kg is really light for an XC HT, 2.5kg more common now and tbh 0.5 - 1kg won't make a lot of odds because of the weight, it's the stiffness of that added material I'd expect to notice more.

Frame weight is the sum of everything - all the details add up. So your axle and seat collar will be adding a little chunk compared to other listed weights.

Then you've got quite a long tapered head tube, thick enough to engrave logos in - that won't be light.

Plate / yoke at the front of the chainstay - that is a hefty lump of steel plate.

ISCG tabs - another chunk of steel plate.

Internal hose tubes - more steel.

Plain gauge / single diameter seat stays.

Fairly hefty large diameter seat tube (you can measure the wall thickness to check what it is).

My UK Reynolds list shows a 680mm long 34.9mm dia 725 tube as 0.8-0.5-0.8 wall thickness - is that long enough for your frame? That is actually pretty thin, not very different to 853 tubes, and actually thinner than the multi-butted 853 tubes developed for "CEN" compliance. Your tt / dt are reasonably long, so there won't be much of the 140mm-ish long 0.8mm end sections getting trimmed off. I really wouldn't want anything thinner or smaller diameter with those forks.

As others have said, it’s not just about CEN… forks, even if the same travel, are now a lot longer than they once were, because of both larger wheels and increased upper/lower overlap. And bikes are longer. And all take large diam seatposts, for dropper use. And have bolt thru dropouts. And they take a fat tapered steerer. And…

I really don’t think weight matters that much. My Dave is over 16kgs all in. Prefer it to the lighter bikes I’ve ridden. What little difference it does make you’ll soon offset with bigger muscles 🙂

Handbuilt out of money no problem Shand Shug is suppose come in at 2.2. My similar 4130 Big Dog has been quoted at 2.7 and the new Sonder is over 3. Think that internal routing and seat brace add a bit

I really don’t think weight matters that much. My Dave is over 16kgs all in. Prefer it to the lighter bikes I’ve ridden. What little difference it does make you’ll soon offset with bigger muscles 🙂

A hardtail weighing over 35lbs 😱! That must be robust / made to outlast even the cockroaches.....

Mine’s defo coming in just over the 28lb mark which I’m ok with. With a frame around 2kgs it would have been really light - even with Codes / Pikes / 2.6” tyres etc

Frame weight is the sum of everything – all the details add up. So your axle and seat collar will be adding a little chunk compared to other listed weights.

Then you’ve got quite a long tapered head tube, thick enough to engrave logos in – that won’t be light.

Plate / yoke at the front of the chainstay – that is a hefty lump of steel plate.

ISCG tabs – another chunk of steel plate.

Internal hose tubes – more steel.

Plain gauge / single diameter seat stays.

Fairly hefty large diameter seat tube (you can measure the wall thickness to check what it is).

My UK Reynolds list shows a 680mm long 34.9mm dia 725 tube as 0.8-0.5-0.8 wall thickness – is that long enough for your frame? That is actually pretty thin, not very different to 853 tubes, and actually thinner than the multi-butted 853 tubes developed for “CEN” compliance. Your tt / dt are reasonably long, so there won’t be much of the 140mm-ish long 0.8mm end sections getting trimmed off. I really wouldn’t want anything thinner or smaller diameter with those forks.

Seat tube is only 395mm tall - maybe they had to do that in plain gauge 4130? Seat stays and chainstays are quite short.

All the other point are fair - the internal straws out of stainless must weigh quite a bit - as do the steel plate on the driveside chainstay and the hefty headtube.

Ended up with (hopefully) a very strong frame with playful geometry.

My Mk1 Solaris in large and my wife's small Soul both built up in near identical fashion (she had 2x and I 1x) were 12.5kg and 12kg respectfully so really not much in it despite the difference in wheel and frame size.

A rough calc shows that the frame accounts for about 16% of the total weight. Of course it's the biggest single element of the total (assuming you count each wheel separately) but a couple of hundred grams one way or the other isn't going to be a big deal.

I also compared the frames of a Singular Swift and Puffin and there was only 200g between them. So even a fat bike frame from the same designer/manufacturer isn't that much heavier than a straightforward 29er.

Weighed it this evening on the digital bathroom scales and it’s 3.1kgs with rear axle and seat clamp installed.

Is that pretty heavy (it feels a lot heavier than the outgoing alloy Vitus Sentier frame)? Not many places are quoting frame weight but found the Ribble ht725 quoted at 2.92kgs raw (in medium).

That's only 180g difference.

Can we be clear though, anyone claiming 4lbs steel HT weights is talking about an XS on dodgy scales 🙂

My old 456TI (Lynskey) frame in a large/20" weighed 1.8kg AKA 4lbs, bare.

Blimey, my 1990 Tange Prestige fillet brazed XC frame weighs 4.75lbs with nothing on, & I thought that was heavy!
I've weighed it on different scales over the years too, all came up the same.

Ended up with (hopefully) a very strong frame with playful geometry.

Build, ride, enjoy, don't worry about a few grams...

Didn’t this come up in the Cotic Solaris Max thread.

Cotic quote 2.2kg for a large inc axle but sure somebody weighed theirs at it was over 2.5kg and the owner was surprised.

Just re-read that thread and it was Actually 2.6kg but the frame was a XL. But I doubt the weight difference between a L and an XL is 400g

but a couple of hundred grams one way or the other isn’t going to be a big deal.

We're talking about more than that, and also its effect on ride quality, not weight alone.

Can we be clear though, anyone claiming 4lbs steel HT weights is talking about an XS on dodgy scales

My 20" Shand is 1.8kg, from memory my Prometheus was 1.6.

Blimey, my 1990 Tange Prestige fillet brazed XC frame weighs 4.75lbs with nothing on, & I thought that was heavy!

That was heavy - my 1993(?) Kona was 1800 and something or other. But frames back then were physically smaller, had basically no features and if I'd shown it a 150mm 29er fork it probably would have folded in half.

I’ll weigh my Marino/Sick for you one day, that’ll make you feel better.
It’s heavy, not as heavy as I thought it might be, but doesn’t feel it when riding - if anything it feels light to ride other than the 40mm rims and 2.8 tyres.