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I love these threads where kerley posts up with absolute certainty about modern full sus bikes while giving the fact he rides a 1980's track bike as evidence of how he's right.
I'm just grateful that there's so much choice out there from massive to one man band manufacturers that build in all kinds of materials.
Pretty much something out there now for any taste. Sure beats being limited to riding a 1980's track bike...
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Morph Steel 160/142. Years of abuse.
Well it's got me looking more closely at a Cotic Jeht or Flare Max 🙂
Hopefully I'll be able to have a fondle of someone's Rocket Max soon to see how they look up close!
This thread is making me think I need a steel full bouncer now! And I don't really know why.
The thing with steel is its still looked upon as a cheaper heavier material thats flexy and rust prone so to some people it's a weird choice for a full suss that's gonna get wet n muddy most of the year.
When most mountainbikes were steel they seemed a lot more affordable, the introduction of alloy as the new norm is when mountain biking started getting expensive, so when these steel bikes are being made with the same price tag as carbon and alloy it raises questions, I'm suprised there isn't more titanium full sussers being made as it seems some people will pay whatever it costs and still argue its worth it. Is it the niche factor that's appealing, are most buyers anoraks or retro enthusiasts, adamant that steel is real, its certainly a dividing subject, I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.
I'm on my second step full sus. I'll be brutally honest, I generally just love the way they look. But they also ride really well, current frame has some nice flex in the rear end which I think helps on of cancer sections.
What I also like is that they come from small companies with great customer service.
Take this weekend, I'm at the Ard Rock. I had a 10 minute chat with the company owner/frame designer of my current frame. Also chatted to the merchandise man, one of the fabricators and bumped into the chap the runs the owners Facebook group. Was just really nice!
Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface
Nope, they're not.
A torsion bar is twisting, the bar that makes up a coil spring is simply bending.
Hope those sections aren't malignant.
Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface
you know what i mean! though this is interesting information.
Wot like my old Morris Minor? And lever-arm dampers? Double blimey!
probably easier to change that the ones in the minor.
A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
Leaf springs bend.
A torsion bar is twisting, the bar that makes up a coil spring is simply bending.
So far as I can tell from having looked it up, a torsion bar is stressed only in torsion, whereas a coil spring is stressed in both torsion and shearing. But not bending apparently. I find it quite hard to visualise but I can kind of see how that might be.
we’ll see
just spotted this. i may have misinterpreted your post. are you waiting on a straight-tubed, bonded carbon frame?
if so, will you be fitting those fancy wheels (assuming i remember correctly and it is you who had wheels built with the “string” spokes).
Susanne Tully rides a steel full sus.
Fact.
Coil springs still mainly twist the steel bar in torsion. Most broken coil springs you see have a 45 degree / spiral fracture (which is the alignment of principal stress in torsion).
Edit.wow,loads of replies whilst typing.
A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
but does that make it a torsion bar?
A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
Leaf springs bend.
Well if we are getting pedantic (and you started that I think @brant) we appear to be all talking about what happens to the wire (or other stuff) of which the coil spring is made. The thing as a whole compresses and twists.
Surely a torsion bar is one where both ends are locked to things and you twist it to create the spring.
A coil spring is just a rod. You get the same modulus if you clamp one end of it to the desk and put weights on the other end (a cantilever). As you do coiling it up and putting the weights on the end?
Or is this one of those things that A-level sciences lied about like the nice neat electron shells?
As far as the steel is concerned, a coil spring is still a bar in torsion.
As far as the steel is concerned, a coil spring is still a bar in torsion.
But how can it be in torsion if the ends are free* to rotate arround their own axis? That's the bit I don't get?
I.e. this is a cantilever.
If I fold the beam almost in half back on itself. Then each half of the beam has twice the modulus of the original beam, but in series that adds upto the same as the original modulus.
Repeat the folding several times and you've got a coil?
*Ish, they're flattened off and/or retained by a spring seat but they're not clamped.
It is wound into a spiral so no longer free to twist about its own axis.
So some good answers, especially the looks one for me, but another query, why has nobody done a steel full susser in 953 rather than 853 or 4130, i thought that the entry of 953 added benefits for bike manufacture, but the loss in feel meant it was a bit of a miss for MTB's, but with full sussers would the added benefits make it better than 853, with minimal issues in the feel side due to front and rear suspension?
I’ve a steel full sus as I wanted something unusual due to my height and fondness for singlespeeds. And there aren’t many custom full sus options out there, let alone SS. Plus I got to support a local builder, which is nice.
It also rides lovely, which the material will be a factor in.
but with full sussers would the added benefits make it better than 853
Two problems with 953… Reynolds made available tubes aimed at light weight builds, not really thinking about full sus use (Cotic work with Reynolds to create a lot of new and custom tubes for its droplink frames, but can still rely on mixing some ‘out of the catalog’ tubes into their tubesets when sticking with 853)… secondly, everything needs to be stainless, BB shell + headtube etc, costing more but offering nothing over their less expensive non-stainless counterparts that can be used with an 853 build.
It is wound into a spiral so no longer free to twist about its own axis.
But then there would be no way of twisting it? The force pushes on the end of the coil almost perpendicularly like a cantilevered beam?
I read a good article not long ago that explained why a coil spring is simply a coiled torsion bar but can't remember where I found it. It helped me to visualise that the compresion happens as the coiled bar twists along it's length. Hence the reason why softer coils are longer for a given thickness than firmer coils. Something I hadn't previously given any thought to.
So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?
One of steel’s strengths as a frame material is an excellent and a complimentary combination of strength/weight/durability.
I don’t think competition bikes need to be that durable. Finish the race durable - but not take the everyday knocks and bumps as most of of our frames need to really be to meet our need as hobbyists. I don’t know if they need to meet similar safety standards either.
Utter bobbins the far eastern workers are equally if not more skilled than UK or european workers even if they are just making bicycles.
Yes there are good welders but those making bikes are few and far between they realised they can make more money welding in industrial scenarios to make far more money.
Show me an aluminium bicycle manufacturer apart from orange and their welding is not pretty to start with, certainly seen many far eastern bikes finished better.
Uk made carbon we have hope and thats it and again one trick pony bikes.
So saying cheap labour is unskilled is just another arse talking through mouth on this forum
Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.
Few problems with 👆🏻
1. You can’t read
2. You don’t know what you’re taking about.
@brant Your contributions to this forum are getting irritating. You seem to pop up on a thread, say, 'You're wrong. Idiot!' and then not say anything else.
When someone says, 'Can you elaborate' or 'I think you're wrong', one of your fans pops up and says, 'Don't you know who HE is?!!'.
You have direct knowledge of the industry while most of the rest of us are speculating based on articles we've read and conversations we've had.
It would be nice if you could share your experience, especially given the fact you used to sell these frames made by poorly paid unskilled workers, but if you can't because of NDAs or whatever then just stay out of these threads.
At the moment you're acting like one of those kids who has left school but still hangs around with kids in the year below because they think you're super cool.
🤷🏻♂️
Chinese carbon frames are constructed by poorly skilled poorly paid poorly skilled workers. Literally the Far Eastern equivalent of those people who used to earn a few quid stuffing envelopes in the U.K.
That’s of course not to say there isn’t a good deal of skill in making the mold and designing the layup.
I’m sorry if any of that wasn’t clear in my previous post.
And if you’re offended by the thing about coil springs being torsion bars, that’s from my first year mechanical engineering degree a long long time ago.
Also, since we're on the subject, I remember asking you many years ago while you were still involved in the industry if you had any comments to make about this Max Commencal interview.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/From-The-Top-Max-Commencal-interview-2013.html
Today there is no carbon in the Commencal range, in today's market that seems unusual.
It's... It's complicated. We have produced Metas and hardtail frames in carbon in 2007-2008. I went to China to visit these factories. It was a shock for me, because the conditions were a disaster. The workers were working on frames with only paper masks. Kids, I say kids, but they are not kids because they are 18 or 20, are working there weaving the carbon fibre. It's dangerous. When you speak with their boss, he says, "in my factory you don't stay too long because your life might only be five years." So they work six months and they change. All the suppliers are asking for cheaper and cheaper carbon frames. When I came back, believe me, I was not comfortable. I said, I will lose sales, but I do not want to produce carbon. We produce aluminium frames, strong frames, it's a game and we are not there to... kill... only because we want to save 300g weight. So I said, "No, I don't want to produce carbon." I have produced carbon in Toulouse for Nico Vouilloz and Cedric Gracia, 15 or 20 years ago. But it was made in a room with no air in it, with people wearing protective equipment, and it's very expensive. In China, for me... I do not want to communicate on this, I only talk about this because you asked about it. I don't say that all factories are the same, maybe some are cleaner, but, for the moment... And we are working on some other technologies, you will see next year or the year after... With carbon you cannot repair it, you cannot recycle it. Too many bad things.
You didn't reply but many of your fans did, telling me to shut up, don't I take flights, drive a car, buy stuff from China...etc
Would you like to reply now?
I don’t remember you asking about that.
I can though, tell you about how I lobbied a manufacturer for better protection from carbon dust for their workers before I’d put an order with them.
Went back six months later and the owner showed me the new air filtration system which sucked air outside.
Sadly he also excitedly showed me how the filter then dumped the carbon waste in the local river.
He didn’t get an order.
I now own a company that make clothing in the U.K. from audited factories. Our clothing is quite expensive. This makes many people angry.
If you listen to manufacturers who sell carbon frames (or any material frames made in Taiwan or China) then the conditions are excellent and the workers are well paid. From people who have visited these factories but don't sell these frames it's often a very different story.
It does sound like if you buy a frame made in Asia it's almost impossible to know what worker conditions you're supporting. Is that the case?
Carbon has particular hazards (do you see what I did there).
Massive ignorance on many consumers parts confusing/combining China and Taiwan, or indeed “all factories”.
As has been seen from my own current industry, clothing factories in the U.K. come in many flavours. As do all industries all over the world.
With the world on fire or drowning, surely the massively wealthy sports fans who are prepared for throw thousands of pounds on a plaything should be making decisions based on sustainability and impact.
Massive ignorance on many consumers parts confusing/combining China and Taiwan, or indeed “all factories”.
I always assumed that if a frame was made in Taiwan then the factory conditions were probably OK. From what you said earlier in the thread I gather that might not always be the case?
It's really interesting to hear your opinions on this, particularly since you were one of the early pioneers in the current business model of many small UK manufacturers to outsource the actual frame building to Asia.
I’m done for now Bruce. Off skinny dipping in the wood. No equipment needed. Love it.
I love these threads where kerley posts up with absolute certainty about modern full sus bikes while giving the fact he rides a 1980’s track bike as evidence of how he’s right.
It may help if you actually read what I said. I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible. The fact I ride a track bike is irrelevant so not sure how you have ascertained that I am somehow using that as evidence.
Watch this, you may learn something
I now own a company that make clothing in the U.K.
I might be being pedantic, and off topic, here, but what does that company actually make? Or should that read ‘sells clothing (and other random stuff) made in the UK’?
@LAT, afraid not, it’s a carbon frame made to look like it’s made of metal. Here’s a teaser.
Won’t be to everyone’s taste, but I think it looks ace 😊, yeah it will have the string wheels.
I might be being pedantic, and off topic, here, but what does that company actually make? Or should that read ‘sells clothing (and other random stuff) made in the UK’?
Yes that’s a better description.
It may help if you actually read what I said. I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible.
The front triangle, whilst roughly a triangle, is loaded by bending at the head tube, rather than a point load, so is acting as a truss. I think.
“ I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible. ”
If the forces are not wholly in the plane of the triangle, then the fact that it’s a triangle is irrelevant. That’s the kind of overestimation of knowledge I was referring to.
I think he probably has already. Maybe things have changed since he was buying from the Far East?
And Carbon Wasp in Leeds make carbon frames from scratch, in the UK, not just for their own brand either.
Obviosly singletrack Tom has done his usual trick of trying to answer a question by his own parameters to look smug and offered nothing to back up the claim
Carbon wasp don't make me laugh boy ,I know people who do this for a living and you compared an apple and an orange.
And again show me the Aluminium maker that makes a product here , outside of motorcycle fabricators you will struggle to find any.
Again I think there might have been sarcasm on pants part as I’m sure he knows thats not entirely true otherwise he’s basically saying we bought shit from the far east and you mugs lapped it up , jokes on you. But its not a joke is it because it was cheap and reasonably good for the price.
So what argument next a On One inbred was as good as a Stanton? Yeah £199 ( I paid years ago) vs £500 tough argument , What does it cost to buy a UK made hardtail made of largely cromo £699
I could go to several fabricators in the uk and I have tried this , I ask make this to plan for me like the Taiwan factory and theyr’e all going to try and either change it because of X or Y or have a crack and just be too expensive yet beautiful products arrive beautifully finished in boxes from a foreign country , manufacturing in this country is shite mate don’t fool yourself theres a massive massive canyon between their skilled people and ours, But maybe have a go and get some skin in the game before waffling, come back in two years when you have a sellable product.
The flex of a steel frame is a good thing when cornering and the bike is laid over. As the lean angles increase the suspension is less able to deal with vertical 'hits' - the flex of a frame becomes more important in dealing with them.
Years ago I came from a Cannondale Prophet which was by design quite flexible and onto a Jekyll which had been designed to be as stiff as possible. The Prophet tracked long fast sweeping corners brilliantly whereas the Jekyll was skittish and didn't hold a line as well. IIRC Ducati had similar issues when they went to carbon motoGP frames.
The front triangle, whilst roughly a triangle, is loaded by bending at the head tube, rather than a point load, so is acting as a truss. I think.
It is. In fact a bicycle is the classic definition of a truss structure where additional pairs constitute additional elements of the structure.
what has strength got to do with flexing? 😂
This also deserved more attention than it received.
To answer the OP, I would imagine that setting up a company to make bike frames (FS or rigid) in the UK is easiest with steel. You have one of the world's top steel bike tube manufacturers in this country. I think 6061 alu is less available, which is probably why Orange started of using 6082, after the initial dabble with steel.
On a separate note, does anyone think the issues surrounding making a good looking steel e-bike will see the likes of Cotic lose the opportunity make sales in a burgeoning market?
And again show me the Aluminium maker that makes a product here , outside of motorcycle fabricators you will struggle to find any.
Orange
Empire
If we're talking about makers in general then there are plenty more.
To answer the OP, I would imagine that setting up a company to make bike frames (FS or rigid) in the UK is easiest with steel. You have one of the world’s top steel bike tube manufacturers in this country. I think 6061 alu is less available, which is probably why Orange started of using 6082, after the initial dabble with steel.
I still think it's amazing what Pace managed to do in the 90's - having their own tubing drawn, machining the butt profiles on it, welding true world class frames here.
As a dickhead at the time, I didn't really appreciate how hard it was to make anything in the UK - it was really impressive.
@brant I see instead of going skinny dipping you decided to go on twitter instead.
https://twitter.com/shedfire/status/1424307821181603843
It's a bit disappointing, tbh.
First, I think you know I wasn't asking you why you didn't reply to my question, I was asking if you would like to reply now (it looks like the answer to that is no).
Like it or not, you played a large part in developing the business model you now seem to be set against. Cycling consumers believe that the conditions where their bikes are made are generally good, particularly if they come from small UK based brands. Part of the reason for that is because you told us they were.
If you've had a Road to Damascus moment and are now saying that actually the conditions aren't very good then it would be nice to hear more about it.
Bruce sweetheart.
Check the times if you’re concerned I’m lying.
I twittered then went skinny dipping.
Road to Damascus? If you like. Making trousers in the U.K. is quite a step change from making bikes in China.
Road to Damascus? If you like. Making trousers in the U.K. is quite a step change from making bikes in China.
Yes, and you're telling people not to buy the same bikes you used to sell.
Not only that, but you're telling people not to buy bikes that are sold by companies that use the same business model you were a pioneer of.
It sounds like there's an interesting story there.
Folks can change their mind. Which is one of the reasons for me not still doing the GBDR race - weather in part, for example.....
Either way I think at 113kg steel full susser is next for me. Let's face it another 2 kg on the frame will make no difference at all compared to my lardy arse. And I like the thought of a Cotic.
Yes, and you’re telling people not to buy the same bikes you used to sell.
Not only that, but you’re telling people not to buy bikes that are sold by companies that use the same business model you were a pioneer of.
It sounds like there’s an interesting story there.
Crikey Bruce, you're making this hard.
I'm not *telling* anyone to do this. I assumed that posters on here are grown ups. My question still stands as I wrote two days ago
Why would you (anyone) want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally? It really is up to you.
Well, you're the one who used to sell these carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds.
You can probably answer that question better than anyone here since you no doubt did plenty of research into the attitudes of your customers.
However, I would say many of your customers were reassured by you. Like I said, whenever I tried to ask about the ethics of carbon fiber frames I got a torrent of 'whatabout' questions thrown at me by On One/Planet X fans amongst others.
If you ever did address the ethics of carbon fiber while you were still selling the frames then I didn't see it.
[blah blah]90’s[blah blah]. As a dickhead at the time
This implies that you no longer self-identify as a dickhead. If true, can you give us [s]loyal[/s] [I]occasional[/I] customers an idea of when you transitioned?
Folks can change their mind.
Absolutely they can and that is a very good thing.
Normally people change their mind about something because they find new information or their attitudes change.
If Brant changed his mind because he found out something he didn't know before or if his attitudes changed then that's fine. However, from his responses to people on here (who were only saying the same things he and others in the industry have been saying about factory conditions for years) it doesn't sound like either one of those things happened.
If he found out that factory conditions were worse than he thought or if he one day decided that the factory conditions were unacceptable I would expect a response that was more apologetic. 'Sorry, we didn't know at the time.' or 'Sorry, we knew conditions weren't great but we honestly didn't think we could sell the frames if they were priced any higher.'
I don't know if he's taken a page out of the Sick Bicycle Co book of marketing but his responses were confrontational and not apologetic at all which is a confusing response if he truly had his Road to Damascus moment.
It does leave me wondering if he is just a plain old capitalist. When the best business practice was to sell products as cheaply as possible he went and found the cheapest source. Now that the winds are changing and it makes more sense to promote locally manufactured products he is scathing of cheap Asian imports.
I guess we'll never know.
I'm not invested in the debate, but tweeting about your post was a pretty cheap move :-/
(Shall I have a whine about my bad experience buying a Pompino with **** chainline in 2006? 😉 )
Bugger me some people think they matter.
In some small way of answering the original post, I have owned a few steel hardtails in my time, the latest my second Stanton Slackline. I love their bikes and the way in which they do things, when they released the first prototype pictures of the SwitchFS frame I just knew I had to have one!
Yes it's a little heavier than an alloy or carbon frame but i love the way it rides and they guys at Stanton were amazing. I also love the fact it was hand made in the UK but then that might not carry any weight with others, which is fine with me 🙂
Keep seeing new models all the time, but honestly, why
Because it's cheaper and easier for the sorts of "boutique" makers, especially UK based, that want to make interesting, short production run, easily production line altered bikes. You see more of them here, as the sorts of folk who read STW and the kind of folks that might buy one, aren't so much a venn diagram, but just completely overlapping cirlces.
Nearly all bikes used to be made from steel, and companies had to persuade people to buy bikes that weren't, until comparatively recently as well.
Nearly all bikes used to be made from steel, true and prices reflected that, not so now, I'd love to see the material costs then work out what premium prices they put on their welding skills and time in the UK.
This one is a fantastic pissing contest.
There are so many sanctimonious cries of 'No I'm right' its almost all blending together into white noise!
I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.
Mid 50's and yes, ride a Flare Max. I've been thru alloy and carbon FS's - broken 2 carbon frames, but my gravel is carbon.
My Flare Max just rides ace, and now in it's 4th year of abuse - I worked out the other day that it's like Triggers Broom with the only original parts from purchase as a bike are:
- frame & shock, bigger rotor adaptors, crank, stem, post QR and headset spacers
It just encourages me to ride steep & fast trails, consequentially I wear out and/or break lots of bits.
If I had to replace it, it'll be another Cotic FS.
I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.
haha, I guess that makes me a young person with a grandad mindset. No clue who Jon richardson is though... maybe im not old enough or have enough of a grandad mindset. I just think they make nice bike that fit me ride well and have a good brand ethos. Pushing trash free trails and the whole woman of steel thing whats not to get on board with.
Would I be right in thinking that Cotic were the first company in the recent era to sell a production steel full-sus?
If so, the reasons they went that route were rather pragmatic and didn’t involve anything like “feel” which is harder to pin down (but could be quantified with elaborate testing kit). The feel thing is something they started talking about later on.
Old alloy trail bikes were often pretty bendy - small tubes, pivots, skinny forks, etc. When the Rocket came out it was stiffer with its steel frame. But alloy bikes have got stiffer and carbon ones even stiffer. And now the feel difference and the benefits of less rigid frames (within reason) are showing up.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/page/SteelFullSuspension
The first half of that (before breeeathe) is what Cotic said when they launched the Rocket. The rest is what they learnt.
I’ve been through similar things with my own products - I can’t remember for sure but I don’t think I realised quite how much structural changes I made for lower weight would result in some aspects of improved tone (although some hunting through old emails and posts could reveal the truth).
I just think they make nice bike that fit me ride well and have a good brand ethos.
That's as good reasons as any IMO.
I'm currently drawn towards a FlareMAX with bike fit and geometry top of my list of reasons. Yes, frame material is coming into it too in a 'non-carbon' approach, but if it was between steel or aluminium? I'm not that bothered. If I do go ahead it'll be the 7th Cotic I've owned - there's just something about the bikes/company that dings my bell.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/page/SteelFullSuspensionThe first half of that (before breeeathe) is what Cotic said when they launched the Rocket. The rest is what they learnt.
That's a good read and pretty much answers the question posed by the OP.
To be fair there's always been that strength to weight / stiffness ratio, steel being 3x stiffer, but also around 3 times denser, that's why you have bigger aluminium tubes and hydroformed frames to increase stiffness to that of steel in the areas that require it and have the weight savings through this, by weight on a bike i'd say alu vs steel is pretty similar in costs, maybe a little more for steel, but you're getting more of it.
I do like steel bikes, have my explosif for hardtail stuff, but maybe one day i'll get a nice steel full susser, i just like reading thoughts on this type of issue.
I worked out the other day that it’s like Triggers Broom with the only original parts from purchase as a bike are:
– frame & shock, bigger rotor adaptors, crank, stem, post QR and headset spacers
I have a Specialized Enduro, and the only things I changed are the handlebar and stem (because they didn't feel good). But honestly it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean that either is better or worse than the other. It's a toy for having fun on. Don't worry about it too much.
I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.
Nah, bought my RocketMAX because it looks cool and is fast as ****. Cotic are lovely to deal with and have put a lot back into MTB around Sheffield/Peak.
If I had a bit more money I probably would have bought a Starling, for even more niche "old man" vibe.
Nah, bought my RocketMAX because it looks cool and is fast as ****. Cotic are lovely to deal with and have put a lot back into MTB around Sheffield/Peak.
I'm a bit meh about the brand thing for Cotic
I bought my rocketmax secondhand because it was cheapish and in good condition. I wouldn't buy a second hand carbon MTB and would worry about an alloy one. The support available to keep it going was also a factor
It's exceeded expectations so I'm quite happy
Yeah, I know what you mean about the brand. I was never a fan of the old logo, was a bit eyerolly, but the block colours and frame wrap graphics are nice. I mostly meant about the thin, straight tubes. Nom.
I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.
As someone who likes value, I have ridden second hand full suss frames since 2006, mostly aluminium but there was a 26" Rocket in there too.
Each one rode better than the last (apart from the orange 140mm travel Marin Wolf Ridge which I sold after a few rides) but this is geometry I think rather material.
This year at 50 when I decided to buy a whole brand new bike I would have loved to buy a Cotic or Starling but a Bird was just better value.
Looks wise, steel wins no hands down for me. Especially the Swarf frames, stunning.
My own experience, having owned and ridden alu, carbon and steel FS bikes is that there are probably too many differences to pin them down to specific things. However, I can say for sure that my Murmur (with it's skinny steel rear end) is incredibly quiet and calm feeling, finds amazing grip in the slop and drops better than my Nomad did, despite having 30mm less rear travel. It's also much easier to clean, look after and maintain, cost a lot less, is from a nice bloke in Bristol who I actually met and looks the absolute business.
I am not a steel die hard though, I'd happy have another bike made of carbon or alu, but I really like my Starling.
I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.
Haha!
I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.
Does it count as a flounce if you announce it on Twitter and not here?
https://twitter.com/shedfire/status/1425110656341221384
#prayforbrantsbrainandheart
I looked at steel full-sussers (Jeht and Murmur trail specifically) recently snapped an alloy frame. But despite steel being so much stronger and easily repairable the warranty's sucked in comparison to big brand alloy - as well as the prices for the same spec level. So I'm back on alloy but with the peace of mind of a no-quibble lifetime frame warranty.
with the peace of mind of a no-quibble lifetime frame warranty
Isn't there some question about what the lifetime of the frame actually means?
I think I would rather take my chances explaining what happened to Joe or Cy than have to navigate the legal departments of Specialized, Trek, Giant, etc