[Closed] Steel full sussers, why?

Cotic rocket was the lightest bike on test in a recent magazine group test.

Steel isn't far off alu when done right, and generally looks ace.

And people like it, which is the main thing, really.

I have a steel 142mm FS 29er that is faster than most carbon or AL bikes I have tested. I use the Norco Optic/Sight and RIPMO as fast bikes 'all round' benchmark.

Why not? Looks better than alu or carbon, is a great material that’s easy to work with and has some inherit characteristics that make it a great choice for bike frames. Easy to repair and pretty tough. Yeah there can be a slight weight penalty but, honestly, who gives a shit. Lose the weight somewhere else on the bike, carry less crap or become a roadie 😄

My favourite frames have all been steel. Rigid, HT and FS. Plus skinny steel tubes look sweet

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lightfighter762
Full Member

I have a steel 142mm FS 29er that is faster than most carbon or AL bikes I have tested. I use the Norco Optic/Sight and RIPMO as fast bikes ‘all round’ benchmark.

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

Bit of an old article now but:-
https://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/page/SteelFullSuspension

On my second steel full sus. Its ace - juts like the first one was. And doesn't have a down tube covered in dinks from rock strikes like most of my ally bikes had.

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

Something tells me Graeme Obree might be a good person to ask about that...

because they make a great bike that looks the business.

i’ve not thought mountain bikes have looked good since the introduction of suspension forks. rear suspension, aluminum and sculpted carbon hasn't helped. for me, the new wave of steel suspension bikes are the best looking in a long while.

Something tells me Graeme Obree might be a good person to ask about that…

funny.

Not sure about the looks comment - it only looks the way it does as you cant manipulate it like alloy / carbon. And if you could you would as its stronger with better strength to weight ratio.

You could make an alloy or carbon bike look like a steel but you wouldn't do that as it would be weaker.

I own a Rocket as it was the best bike that I demo'd at the time. I tried a few alloy bikes and two carbon bikes too and the Rocket just felt stable, composed and confidence-inspiring. It also wasn't the heaviest bike I tested, that actually went to a carbon one.

Plus it looks really good, still gets favourable comments even though it's 3 years old and not kept as a garage queen. I still remember when it was a few weeks old I went to the FOD for a ride and stumbled upon the YT Demo Day they ran to replace the one where all their bikes were stolen. Parked it at the cafe and loads of people asked me about it. So many in fact that one of the YT lads came and suggested I go ride it, turns out it was taking people's focus away from their carbon bikes. Bumped into someone on a BTR hardtail too who was also struggling to eat in peace.

Cotic rocket was the lightest bike on test in a recent magazine group test.

Mine weighs 35lbs as I built it tough but could easily get that down to 32-33lbs without too much issue.

Be cool if someone could make a carbon frame, and all it’s weird shapes, look like it was made of steel.

😎

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

Most steel full sus bikes are made by small companies. A lot of them in the UK. Don’t think they have the funds to be sponsoring riders. Seems like an odd question too to be honest. The vast majority of people who buy mountain bikes aren’t Olympic athletes or pro riders. They’re normal folk who like riding bikes. Some of them like steel for looks, performance, strength etc.

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

Because the companies that sponsor riders don't make steel bikes because there's no demand for them because the perception is that they aren't good because no top level riders use bikes made of steel because there's no demand for them because the perception is that...

The Cotics are technically 50/50 aren't they?

Steel front end by Five Land Bikes made in the UK and an aluminium rear made in Taiwan.

Swingarm is aluminium, as are fittings like the shock mount, droplinks etc. Front triangle and seat stays are steel.

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

Here's one winning a gold medal:

Can’t see the rear, or front suspension 😋

Can’t see the rear, or front suspension

It’s attached to the riders shoulders and arse.

tomhoward
Full Member
Can’t see the rear, or front suspension

It’s attached to the riders shoulders and arse.

So basically nothing to do with steel full sussers then

Not sure about the looks comment – it only looks the way it does as you cant manipulate it like alloy / carbon. And if you could you would as its stronger with better strength to weight ratio.

but then it wouldn’t have lovely straight tubes

Be cool if someone could make a carbon frame, and all it’s weird shapes, look like it was made of steel.

but the tubes would be weird shapes and as a result, not cool.

some folk don’t get it!

Why do we make so many bikes out of aluminium alloys when they’re so much weaker and so much less stiff than iron alloys?

Beware oversimplifications, they’re usually wrong.

but the tubes would be weird shapes and as a result, not cool.

We’ll see.

The Cotics are technically 50/50 aren’t they?

not by weight. that’s a humorous comment by the way, not trolling. all my bikes are steel apart from the one attached to a trainer, but that isnt really a bicycle as it only has one wheel. i only say that as i don’t want to admit to having an aluminum bike.

Just out of interest, which group test has the Cotic as the lightest option?

Just out of interest, which group test has the Cotic as the lightest option?

And was it the lightest bike, or lightest frame?

I bought mine because I needed a frame and the rockets were on offer and 0% finance. All I know is that bar seat angle it's the same geometry as the trek it replaced, but lots more fun. Probably because the suspension design suits my preference more, and nothing to do with it being steel.

And was it the lightest bike, or lightest frame?

It's always interesting when magazines do big grouptests, the aluminium bikes are generally lighter £/lb as the cost of making a carbon frame doesn't make sense relative to the weight saved. So an aluminium frame with better kit is lighter.

Probably less of a factor in boutique steel frame, but then maybe not post Brexit now that Cotic Rockets almost look like a normal price and it's harder to import the cheapest direct sales brands like Canyon.

Why are people obsessed with weight? Unless you’re racing it really doesn’t make that much difference to how a bike rides. The only bike I’ve owned where the weight had any real impact was a Transition Trans AM and most of that was down to the crap wheels and cheap fork.

My current bike is a Stooge Dirtbomb. Never weighed it because that would just be ****ing weird in my eyes. Feels reasonably heavy when I lift it in and out of the shed. Yet I can ride it all day on all types of terrain and not get tired or notice the weight. Has nice wheels and light(ish) tyres for plus.

Steel bikes are repairable.

Steel bikes are repairable.

So is carbon. And aluminium. And titanium. With varying levels of difficulty.

Steel is easily repairable and it’s easy to find someone who can do it pretty much anywhere. I’m biased but steel bikes are just better 😀 look better and make the best noise when you flick them or stones and rocks hit them. Ting!

I’ve tried other materials and it’s just not the same. Except Ti because money

Be cool if someone could make a carbon frame, and all it’s weird shapes, look like it was made of steel.

😎

Not just skinny tubes, but lugged too.

Atherton?

Colnago?

BMC?

Look (retro only)

Must be more I'm forgetting.

TBH I don't know why the average mtber wants carbon fibre, lots of reasons why it's problematic for the average rider in UK conditions

I picked up a rocketmax first gen off eBay, it fits me, feels bombproof, and I'm not worried about wear and tear on the frame riding it in UK conditions

As for the frame weight difference, it's 5% max of total build weight of a similar bike

As someone that makes the odd steel frame I should be defending this... But to be honest other materials are often better for full sus if bothered about weight (which I am to a certain extent).

I've only previously felt the need to make one steel full sus, but that was for a very specific application (long wheelbase kiddy seat 20" back wheel low c of g dad special). Steel and recycling some old frames let me make that very quickly (essential because kids grow fast).

Steel is great for recyclability and reuse - I'm currently making a new work bike using a recycled rear triangle from my last-but-one mtb made 10 yrs ago. A different fork and 3 new tubes gives me a completely different bike for very little work.

But today reading the latest singletrack I did get a full sus idea - a steel copy of the Trek Supercaliber with a "non-CEN" front triangle (I'm 64kg so probably safe) could be awesome and barely heavier than a hardtail. Would be like the twang, compliance and comfort amplified in a really good way. And shock loads almost axial along the top tube would be structurally appropriate for skinny steel tubes.

lots of reasons why it’s problematic for the average rider in UK conditions

Which ones are you thinking about? I have two carbon framed bikes, full susser and road, and they have been thoroughly unproblematical in the frame department. Only frame I have broken was steel (OK that was a design fault). But I also have three steel hardtail frames and love them also. I have/had ali frames and they are/were ace as well. I must be lucky (apart from the DMR Switchback), I don't have frame problems.

Haven't had Ti, I would be a bit cautious about getting a Ti frame as many of the Ti frames I know broke.

Carbon FS MTB with non swoopy tubes you say.…..

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I too like the look of steel bikes though.

Edit: Oops beaten to it by an hour.....

Meh! Looks like carbon still. Just with those knuckles that join market stalls and scaffolding pipes together thrown in. Lines aren’t clean like with a nice steel bike

Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally.

It really is up to you.

Have you ridden any OP?

I've had a good go on a few and have ridden many different aluminium and carbon FS bikes as well.

I don't own a steel FS and I wouldn't say they were necessarily better, but they can have a nice ride feel which other materials don't.

And they can look amazing obvs.

tomhoward
Full Member
Steel bikes are repairable.

So is carbon. And aluminium. And titanium. With varying levels of difficulty

Ok I should have said steel bikes are easily and cheaply repairable. I don't think you'll find anyone to replace the top tube on your hydroformed Alu bike.

Not full sus but entire front triangle replaced in the shed at home.

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Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally.

I think you can probably answer that yourself.

Not full sus but entire front triangle replaced in the shed at home.

I reckon I could replace the front triangle of a FS without much bother, regardless of material 😉

Carbon repair doesn’t seem impossible either, plenty of places do it.

My cotic frame and shock weighs almost exactly the same as the on one codeine (all aluminium) that it replaced.

My "new" Gen 1 Flaremax is within a knats chuff the same weight as the aluminium Cannondale it replaced.

And a million times nicer to ride even with the shock in desperate need of a service.

My Starling Murmur is flippin’ ace. It’s the stainless one so throw in the raw finish and it looks great too.

TBH I don’t know why the average mtber wants carbon fibre, lots of reasons why it’s problematic for the average rider in UK conditions

What reasons?

Lots of people all over the world might be able to weld steel but getting someone to not blow a massive hole in your paper thin tubes or messily MIG it beyond further repair is another thing.

You can carry round a carbon repair kit in your pocket.

Is repairability really a big driver in people choosing steel bikes though? Or just something people trot out in internet discussions?

I'd see it as:

1. Ride feel
2. Looks
3. Price
4. Weight
5. Durability
6. Repairability

im enjoying this post levels of trolling are pretty funny.

1. Ride feel
2. Looks
3. Price
4. Weight
5. Durability
6. Repairability

This is basically dead on for me. I own a few and its basically down to I like how steel bikes ride and the fact Cotics looks amazing is an absolute plus. if I dent my frame im not going to fix it im just going to get another one.

I would only include 2. Looks and maybe 3. Price.

As for the rest

1. Ride feel - Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame

4. Weight - Weight makes so little difference it is not a factor (2 watts for a KG saved)

5. Durability - Does anyone have their frame long enough to even care about that, who is still riding their out of date 2010 steel frame (I am riding a 1980's steel frame by the way so I care but I am not in the fickle world of modern MTB!)

6. Repairability - Pretty much same as above

I’m with you kerley. Might sound daft but looks are a definite factor for me. Just makes me want to ride more if I like how my bike looks. Price is also a big factor as I have little disposable income. They’re my main two factors for me along with sensible design for the UK climate. I just happen to really like the looks of steel. Nothing more complicated than that really.

If we all liked the same things it would be a very boring world.

1. Ride feel – Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame

Tell us about the steel FS bikes you've ridden to substantiate this please.

Or just something people trot out in internet discussions?

Don’t forget recyclability.

“ 1. Ride feel – Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame”

It would be nice if this was true but it isn’t. I’m holding a crying toddler so can’t be bothered to write more but engineering analysis of dynamic loads on bikes across the full frequency range, slo-mo footage and riders’ experiences shows that materials and structures matter a lot. People are heavy, bikes are not very stiff and accelerations are high.

Surely ride feel depends on your body weight too? If a frame is built to flex, it will flex more the heavier you are. Maybe not at all if you're very light?

Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally.

I think there are a lot of unfair assumptions there.

Firstly, are the workers all poorly paid? Maybe less than the UK, but possibly not by local standards.

Taiwan is fairly well off

Taiwan income

Bare in mind that price purchasing power makes this go further.

Secondly, why is skill per se important? With carbon manufacturing, the mould does a lot of the work, I expect there is some skill in the lay up, but they standardise the procedure.

Let's think about Hope, for example, the skill is in the design, but the process is highly automated by CNC machines. That's how they can afford to manufacture in the UK.

I'd much rather have a machine made crank than a hand crafted one. Less chance of human error.

I don't fancy a carbon frame as they are pricier and I worry about impact
durability. I expect there are lots of pluses including weight, complex frame shapes and stiffness.

I've got a steel hardtail, steel commuter and an alloy full sus. I've considered a steel full sus and tested a Production Privee no5 which was a pig, but I think that was the bike, not the material.

Aesthetics are subjective, but I think that many steel full sussers are real lookers.

Durability – Does anyone have their frame long enough to even care about that, who is still riding their out of date 2010 steel frame (I am riding a 1980’s steel frame by the way so I care but I am not in the fickle world of modern MTB!)

Same, still have my Trailstar LT and my missus is on an Inbred. Of course my newest bike is 5 years old but hey ho.

if I dent my frame im not going to fix it im just going to get another one.

@joepud next time you start lecturing folk on here I hope you take a second to consider that statement and what it says about you as an individual.

I think there are a lot of unfair assumptions there.

You may wish to revisit who was making those ‘assumptions’.

[img] [/img]

Low batch bike but probably better than any carbon or AL bike I have tested for ride feel and just flat out speed up and down. Pretty much 3 things I look for. If it beats a Norco optic/sight c1/ripmo up and down and feels better its an ace bike.

@joepud next time you start lecturing folk on here I hope you take a second to consider that statement and what it says about you as an individual.

erm.. ok, what exactly does it say about me as an individual? Personally I wouldn't want to ride a frame with a dent in it I just wouldn't feel safe. Same way I wouldn't ride a wheel with a broken spoke or thats dented. I don't get how that was a lecture. Your reaction to my comment was pretty peak.

Just to digress a little bit...

in the world of motorcycles with aluminium frames Ducati seem to get but just fine with trellis steel frames...

and elsewhere in the MTB world Kingdom have a pretty devout following with their titanium FS frames...

add in BTR, Curtis etc...

makes you think...

I do think we’d make quite different decisions about all our purchasing if we could meet every single person involved in the supply chain of the products we buy.

A supply chain… from tube to trail…

I do think we’d make quite different decisions about all our purchasing if we could meet every single person involved in the supply chain of the products we buy.

Well yes. You would only buy those products where it was possible to meet every person involved in the supply chain.

Despite all two pages of froth it might actually be worth examining the opening sentence of this thread:

Keep seeing new models all the time...

Are you sure about that OP?

I mean yes they do exist, but they're not exactly common are they? SBC/Trek/Giant aren't churning out lots of Steel FS bikes are they? You won't see every other rider at a trailcentre on a steel FS bike.
I'm only aware of a handful TBH and none are really what I would call 'mainstream' MTB products...

The simple fact is they're a niche, within a niche, (within another niche?).
Steel framed FS bikes tend to come from smaller manufacturers, who often work primarily in steel because steel construction can be adapted far more readily than other techniques (adjusting a jig, and selecting different tube profiles Vs new tooling for Al and Composites) and generally it suits their setup and the preferences of their customers, they can produce their own geometry as they see fit, or customise it if necessary.

Ultimately if you decide you want an AL or Composite FS bike, you are pretty well catered for by the various larger manufacturers.
If you have to ask why a steel (or Ti) FS bike is even a thing you can buy; you're probably not the target market, and I wouldn't spend anymore time worrying about it...

My cotic frame and shock weighs almost exactly the same as the on one codeine (all aluminium) that it replaced.

not just that a few years ago I rented a SC Hightower MK1 for a test ride. the price tag of that bike was £5.5k with a pretty high spec. A mate accompanied me on his Cotic Flare (non long shot) with a hodge podge of old and new bits and bobs - £3k max. On paper the SC was lighter, but in the real world with the bike lift test there was so little in it you could barely tell. So you're not actually buying a huge weight reduction with carbon and on balance the Flare rode better. Neither of us were any quicker on the SC and because of the silly low height BB we were probably slower over the more technical stuff because we were constantly concerned about pedal strikes and bashing the chainring. The Flare was the superior bike absolutely no doubt about it.

The moral of the story is it matters not what the frame material is...they all have pro's and cons which balance out any advantages and disadvantages, but what is important is how well the bike has been engineered and made.

I fail to see any compelling reason to go carbon for a normal average bod apart from bling factor (nothing wrong with that...we all like nice kit). But you're kidding yourself if you think you're getting any noticeable or real benefit just from material choice alone. A poorly engineered carbon bike (and alot are poorly engineered even from the big brands) will not be as good as a well engineered bike made from any other material.

Buying a bike just because its carbon, or titanium or steel is silly. There are many things you should be considering other than frame material. But the marketing factor is strong here...its easier to sell Carbon..you know that stuff F1 cars are made of...to a non-technical solicitor who wont necessarily understand or appreciate any fancy pants suspension kinematics or manufacturing quality or any other aspect that you should ideally consider when buying a bike then making that link to F1 is all that is needed to part them from their money.

Blimey is F1 really that pervasive? I suppose it would explain the current trend for coil springs.

Blimey is F1 really that pervasive? I suppose it would explain the current trend for coil springs.

F1 cars use torsion bars! /winkyface

Wot like my old Morris Minor? And lever-arm dampers? Double blimey!

F1 cars use torsion bars! /winkyface

Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface

i’ve not thought mountain bikes have looked good since the introduction of suspension forks.

I've been working on that.

erm.. ok, what exactly does it say about me as an individual? Personally I wouldn’t want to ride a frame with a dent in it I just wouldn’t feel safe. Same way I wouldn’t ride a wheel with a broken spoke or thats dented.

It says that rather than fix something you are prepared to just buy a new one, consumerism at its worst. And yes, you said you would just replace rather than repair.

That wasn't a lecture but you're quite handy at handing them out when it comes to race etc. I've not forgotten that pile on you were quite happy to wade into and character assassinate me after I was set up. All I'm saying is next time someone says something that upsets you, instead of pulling out the putchforks and acting all holier than thou maybe stop and consider that you're not perfect yourself.

That aside, I'm genuinely surprised you have such an attitude to consumerism. Didn't see that one.

Tell us about the steel FS bikes you’ve ridden to substantiate this please.

No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.

Frame material amounts to about 1% of the compliance of even a rigid road bike running on 25c tyres so it sure isn't going to be more than that on a full suspension MTB.

This is your occasional reminder that bikes are 3D objects.

“ No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.”

How is the view from the summit?

I shan’t argue because I’ve responded to your posts about this before. You were wrong then too and too close-minded to learn. Shame because you seem quite bright…

I've got a rocketmax on order.
Never ridden a steel bike since I got properly into biking a few years ago. Currently on a ally cube stereo.
Main reason I ended up ordering a cotic is down to the UK engineering and mostly UK manufacturing. It's also a beautiful bike and I really like what cotic are doing.

I bought my cube nearly 5 years ago on the basis that it seemed like very good value for money - it was.

No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.

what has strength got to do with flexing? 😂

Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally

Utter bobbins the far eastern workers are equally if not more skilled than UK or european workers even if they are just making bicycles.

Yes there are good welders but those making bikes are few and far between they realised they can make more money welding in industrial scenarios to make far more money.

Show me an aluminium bicycle manufacturer apart from orange and their welding is not pretty to start with, certainly seen many far eastern bikes finished better.

Uk made carbon we have hope and thats it and again one trick pony bikes.

So saying cheap labour is unskilled is just another arse talking through mouth on this forum

Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.

Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.

I think he probably has already. Maybe things have changed since he was buying from the Far East?

And Carbon Wasp in Leeds make carbon frames from scratch, in the UK, not just for their own brand either.