[Closed] Stan's rims better than Mavic & DT?

Relevant to my interests, Currently debating Crest VS XC717

Mavic seem to have taken "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" to the extreme. Their rim offerings haven't really changed for years, so the Stan's equivalent are much lighter in pretty much every case.

Stans rims are about 50g lighter for the equivalent rim, they're a bit wider so give the tyre a better profile, and they're easier to convert to tubless.

If weight bothers you, and let's be honest if you could take 100g off your wheel set for the same money, you would, right? then it's a no brainer.

As above. Mavic seem only interested in updating their complete wheel offerings (where their bigger profits lie I assume). In the grand scheme of things the rather outdated Mavic rim offerings are certainly stronger than DT and probably stronger than Stans... but the narrow profile and heavier weight makes Mavic no longer the default rim of choice they used to be.

Come on Mavic... smell the coffee and get with the modern times! Until they do Stans or other "wider" profile rims are better to ride... if perhaps not as long lasting.

Ask this question of a Stans owner struggling to get a tyre on & you might get a skewed answer. 🙂

Mavic for me. Have subjected 717's to some right abuse & never had an issue.
TN719's nowadays.
The tyre mounting issues put me off Stans if I'm honest, plus I'm not intrested in faffing around with tubeless.

Well, that was easy!

Do we know anything further on relative strength? I tend to think of 717 as a race rim that can happily be ridden as a trail rim. Do the lighter Stan's stand up to similar abuse including rocks and jumps? I've got a set of 517 on Hope Ti-glides that are still going. I seem to remember the next Stan's rim up is quite a bit heavier than a 717, and perhaps even the 19mm non UST Mavic options.

My 286g Podium rims are in far better shape than any of the sets of XC717s I've used, which frankly have underwelmed me!

I'd put the Crest ahead of the 717 in strength terms. Nowt scientific though!

Stan's rims all the way.

Crest at 340g would be the equivalent to the 395g 717 Disc, but tubeless ready, and 21mm wide versus 17mm. They're plenty strong.

Well... strength is just one factor in many. I ran 317's and Flow's back to back for a few years. I ran 2.3 to 2.5 tyres on the Flow rims tubeless at down to 25psi with little problems. On the 317's I would not run larger tyres than 2.2 and even then when tubeless they would burp and squirm at anything less than 30psi... which was annoying and enough to put me in the bushes a few times

I bent a couple of Flow's in that time but no 317's... and yet it was the 317's I sold because I prefered to ride the wider Flow rim which allowed me to run tubeless, reduce the pressure, and run the bigger tyres I like. Were the 317's stronger? No idea... I just didn't like riding them as hard because they felt crap compared to the wider Flow rims.

Excellent, sounds like Crests next up then.

I don't think I could mentally adjust to losing 109g off each rim! I suspect I am rather heavier than you.

Have crests, great rims, bugger to get the tyre on but don't let that put you off, I've heard others say it was no issue, put this way, once they're on, they're staying there!

Only place my Mavics have my Stans rims beat is hardness- Stans are strong but a little softer and easier to ding, most Mavics are hard and resistant to denting (but seem easier to crack, maybe not unconnected!)

I reckon Mavic could make much better rims if they wanted to- look at the 819, basically unchanged since my Crossmax Enduros in 2007.

Stans are strong but a little softer and easier to ding, most Mavics are hard and resistant to denting (but seem easier to crack, maybe not unconnected!)

That's interesting, because that's exaclty where my Stan's rims have all been superior - I put so many dents in my XC717s, whilst I've only really managed one dent in an old Olympic! The lack of sidewall height really seems to help IMO.

Hmmm....well, I've got long-term experience of 717's, DT4.2's and Stans Crest (the latter in both 26" and 29" guises).

My Hope XC/Mavic 717's were Merlin custom builds and they saw years of use under me without even needing trueing or retensioning....and no dings in the rims - FWIW, I'm about 90kg in full kit and ride mostly natural Peak, Lakes, Scotland. I sold the wheels to a guy who is a very aggressive rider who loves big mountain descents - he's given the wheels a right beating, and has been through more than one set of hub bearings - but the rims are still good!!

The main downside I found with the 717's was that larger volume tyres could get a bit unstable at sub-25ish psi.

The DT 4.2's performance was similar to the 717's - possibly very slightly better support of wider tyres (I think the rims are 1mm wider).

FWIR, the Mavic (& DT) rims are eyeletted, so can take a fair bit more spoke tension than Stans Crests.

I've owned Stans Crest, Arch and Flow rimmed wheels in both 26" & 29" - which probably tells you something! I've used the Crest 26" wheels on a short travel XC bike and 140mm trail FSers, and they've been fine on both - although after 6 months on the 140mm, they did need trueing slightly. I've found that some of my Stans rims have collected a few more dings, but this may be because I run tubeless at low pressures - whereas the Mavics ran tubed all the time, and ran at higher tyre pressure.

In the 29er version, I found the Crests way too flexy and vague on very rocky trails - even with good spoke tension (nothing to do with my 90kg weight of course!).

More recently, I've had a pair of ArchEX 29er wheels built, and have been very pleased with them, they seem to be the perfect compromise between weight, stiffness, cost and ease of 'tubelessness'. I would imagine that the Arch's would build into an excellent wheelset for a med-longish travel 26" trail bike.

Anyways, HTH.

If you are comparing Mavic 717 to Stans Crest it is worth pointing out the price differential. £38 for Mavic v £68 for Stans. Pretty sure that this is significant I the discussion.

Dt rims are as easy to tubeless as Stans with some yellow tape and a valve. At £35 for a dt470 same weight as an Arch 29er these at £35 seem like a particularly good deal. 26inch version is also available.

njee20 - Member

That's interesting, because that's exaclty where my Stan's rims have all been superior - I put so many dents in my XC717s, whilst I've only really managed one dent in an old Olympic! The lack of sidewall height really seems to help IMO.

That is interesting- I've not used my Olympics much yet, basing mine on Crests and Flows. Hope your prediction comes true, I'm still a wee bit wary of the Olympics, lightest rims I've used by quite a bit!

The flipside is, the Flows unding very easily and they don't feel like they're stressing out while you do it. Straightening a dent out of my MTXs is like trying to bend a brick.

If weight bothers you, and let's be honest if you could take 100g off your wheel set for the same money, you would, right? then it's a no brainer.

FWIW, I've built several sets of Stans rims for other people now, and they are lovely, and they are a pleasure to build. But I won't use them, because they don't have eyelets. I keep my wheels for a loooooong time and eyelets make for longer lasting rims. Fact.
So, if you're swapping your wheels or rims every couple of years, can afford the extra and don't mind taking a chance on the weight/strength conundrum then yep, Stans are fine. But I'm quite happy on my 717s for normal riding and commuting/touring duties thank you very much 🙂

PeterPoddy - Member

That's the problem though.... It's NOT the same money. Mavics are quite a bit cheaper.

Lots of people buy Hope Hoops, which removes the price difference.

As for Facts, I've cracked eyeletted rims around the eyelets and that's a pretty common failure. Less metal in eyelets means more metal in the rest of the wheel, so even if eyelets are Factually better (which I am unconvinced of) for the same weight an eyelet'd wheel is likely to be weaker elsewhere.

As for Fact, I've cracked eyeletted rims around the eyelets and that's a pretty common failure. Less metal in eyelets means more metal in the rest of the wheel, so even if eyelets are Factually better (which I am unconvinced of) for the same weight an eyelet'd wheel is likely to be weaker elsewhere.

Fine. But I'm not prepared to pay £40/pair extra for Stans on the off chance. I know 717s are tough, so I carry on with them.
(I think the front I have out in the garage is 8+ years old now, the matching rear met it's maker about 4 years ago, the rim was still usable but the hub...? Nooooo. Not really..... The innards were ripped to shreds resulting in it locking solid)
Chances are I'm a fair bit heavier than you as well, and I'm just not that bothered about 50g off a rim, thanks. I loose 20g by using electrical tape instead of rim tape anyway.... always have done 🙂

Lots of people buy Hope Hoops, which removes the price difference.

But like I say, Stans are lovely rims, I LOVE building them up. Just not using them.

PP if you don't mind me asking, where are you buying 240's that cheap?

And out of interest, how much would a pair of 240's/717's or Crests built by you cost me?

Email in profile if you prefer.

Groan. This reminds me, I have half a dozen wheels to build. 🙁

As mentioned above the Stans are generally lighter for the same level of rim and tubeless ready with the rim strips.

Weight saving is down to loosing the eyelets, I think materials have moved on enough to do this and I haven't had any issue there. They've also gone for wider shallower rims with shallower sidewalls, saves a bit more weight without compromising on strength and produces better tyre profile for tyres most people run nowadays.

I haven't had any issues fitting tyres (always make sure it sits right in the middle of the well when fitting) and found the bead seats easily if you put them up to about 40psi and let them back down to the desired pressure.

All my Mavic on Pro2 are now Stans on Pro2. Never had a wheel failure but fancied lighter wheels with easy tubeless option.

I have Crests but would not get them again. I'll stick with Mavic's! They are far more user friendly than the impossible Stan's. IMO.

tk46hal - Member
I have Crests but would not get them again. I'll stick with Mavic's! They are far more user friendly than the impossible Stan's. IMO.

What's not user friendly about the Crests?

Some people can't get tyres onto them.

(there was a brilliant thread on here or maybe bikeradar a while back, a chap declaring it absolutely impossible, 2 pages later "So I went to my LBS and he fitted it in 2 seconds with his thumbs" )

PP if you don't mind me asking, where are you buying 240's that cheap?

Rear one was £70 used on the classifieds here, front was free with forks form Merlin nearly 2 years ago
Rims were just under £70 one from CRC one unused off the classifieds
Spokes about £40.

And out of interest, how much would a pair of 240's/717's or Crests built by you cost me?

I do build for other people, But you'd have to source your own bits, really 🙂

Northwind

I did see that thread. I've just put some 2.25 Snakeskin Nobby Nics onto my crests and didn't need tyre levers. They were tight, but i guess that's the point... ;o)

[i]eyelets make for longer lasting rims. Fact.[/i]

hmmmm, that's more like an opinion (given some of the wheels I've seen). 😀

Most folk don't really batter rims that hard, and all things being equal; for most people Mavic are overbuilt, and they could happily ride around on Stans with no hassles for ages.

Do mavic state a max pressure for their rims? This is the reason Mavic are a mile ahead of Stans in every sense.. other than weight.

Rear one was £70 used on the classifieds here, front was free with forks form Merlin nearly 2 years ago
Rims were just under £70 one from CRC one unused off the classifieds
Spokes about £40.

Bargain

Also:

The whole "getting tyres onto crests" issue people were having - is that still a thing or have things changed?

If it helps i'll be running tubes with normal tyres.

I ended up going for 719's over the same weight Stans.
The idea of eyelets still appealed and they are getting built onto a nice set of ProII's weight will be similar to the Stans but cheaper. (19mm vs 21mm) but the profile of the ardent doesn't seem to be that bad.

I run Mavic on all my bikes except for the Fat Bike and see no good reason to change. I tried Flow's on a test bike. The back rim dinged within the first couple of hours of riding and when I subsequently pinch flatted (same pressure as I would use on my Mavic's), getting the tyre off even with levers was a bloody trauma let alone getting it back on the rim. It's the first time in years I've had to use tyre levers so came as a bit of a surprise. I was left underwhelmed.

For me, Mavic are cheaper, my 719's have ably carried my daughter on the back of the bike for the last two years and are still true so are more than strong enough for my needs and they are less hassle to build according to my wheelbuilding guru who refers to Stans as Stan So Softs.

I can't say that I found the extra width of the Flows made any difference to the way my tyres felt. I must be less sensitive to such things! 😀

eyelets make for longer lasting rims. Fact.

hmmmm, that's more like an opinion (given some of the wheels I've seen).

Know this: Stans rims are built with less tension than eyeletted rims due to the lack of eyelets and the risk of cracking the spoke bed..... Or al least they should be..... 🙂

I'm just about to buy a new set of Arch EX on Pro2 Evo hubs to replace a set of XM819s on Hope Bulb/XCs - should save a little weight & I tend to replace my wheels every few years anyway.
I've not had any trouble getting Maxxis LUST tyres on or off 819s or the Crests I've got on my XC bike, might need the tyre levers to get the last bit, but still easy to do.

I used Mavic until about 2009 I think, Stans all the way now. Crests are superb rims. I found 2012 Schwalbe tyres hard to fit but never had a problem with any other.

The big plus for me is that you can go in to pretty much any bike shop and get spokes/nipples to fit hope hoops, you even have a reasonable chance of finding a freehub. Try that with a 'wheelset' with silly spokes, rim specific nipples and a freehub you can't get for three weeks. Suddenly you find yourself in Halfords buying a £50 'save your holiday' wheel...

After Googling some and reading a bunch of horror stories about mounting tyres on Crests im leaning back toward XC717's as I know they work...

Ah!

The big plus for me is that you can go in to pretty much any bike shop and get spokes/nipples to fit hope hoops, you even have a reasonable chance of finding a freehub. Try that with a 'wheelset' with silly spokes, rim specific nipples and a freehub you can't get for three weeks. Suddenly you find yourself in Halfords buying a £50 'save your holiday' wheel...

Fairly sure most wheels have fairly common spokes with the exception of the Mavic bladed and the Hope "Hoops" with SP spokes etc.

My new set of wheels are Hope Hubs on Mavic XM719 - not the hoops though as I wanted different spokes and nipples and they will be built by my LBS. Any LBS worth going to will have most common spokes if they don't then there is every chance they wont have HOOP spokes as they are built with 6-10 different rim choices so there is every chance that is at least 20 different spoke lengths as all rims are different.

Wheels is Wheels when it comes to replacing the spokes unless it's a bit wierd then they either have them or they don't.

I ran pro2's with 719 rims and have recently changed to pro2's with crest rims ... setting them up tubeless was far easier with the crest rims (yellow tape and superstar valves). They went up first time with a track pump ... even without the sealant in at first then I just added the sealant through the valves.
The 719's seemed to take may attempts and eventually I needed a compressor.

I know this is a bit late;

[i] Any LBS worth going to will have most common spokes if they don't then there is every chance they wont have HOOP spokes as they are built with 6-10 different rim choices so there is every chance that is at least 20 different spoke lengths as all rims are different.

Wheels is Wheels when it comes to replacing the spokes unless it's a bit wierd then they either have them or they don't.[/i]

Hoop spokes? My point was Hoops use normal spokes, most bike shops will have a selection of spoke lengths, if one doesn't the next probably will. A lot of UST/tubeless wheelsets have different nipples and spokes. I've waited weeks for replacements for a Shimano XT wheelset and had numerous orders cancelled from different online shops, in the end I managed to get 1 XTR nipple through a LBS which despite not matching, does fit.

I've got a set of Stans Arch EX and I've decided this avo that I'm getting rid of them and going back to Mavic!

They're just so much hassle, impossible to get tyres on and off, you have to drill them out if you want to run shrader, the tyres don't sit straight and I keep getting punctures.

All in all not worth the hassle IMO. In all the years I've run mavic (albeit 321s/521s) I've never had a puncture and they've always been easy to work with.

My enduro has stans arch ex on 3.30 hubs and have been spot on so far , only 2 days at fod and some local stuff
No issue fitting tyres ( but I never seem to)
Still nice and true
Light weight
All good for me

Do see lots of mavic rims cracked round the eyelets too , this may often be down to to high a spoke tension imo

Never had any trouble getting Schwalbe's onto Crest rims - just make sure the tyre's sitting in the middle of the rim when you come to get the last bit over.

Question for the wheel builders - spoke tension for the Crest rim is stated as 95kgf, how is that worked out in the real world, given that (presumably) the drive side (rear) would need more tension than the non-drive side (and vice versa up front)? Your thoughts would be appreciated folks.

I've ran stans rims since before they became fashionable, from about 2005. Mostly flows, but some crests in the last couple of years.

IMO, they are softer than the Maxtal alloy that mavic use. They accumulate rock marks and scuffs more easily and do seem a little more prone to flat spots. Like Peter Poddy, I tend to keep my rims for a good while, and I have found that eyeleted rims seem to give more mileage. Presently I'm using Sun-ringle black flags that seem to offer similar benefits to Stans, but have eyelets.

Despite being softer Stan notubes rims are lighter for a comparable strength, have a wider profile and they make tubelessing so very easy. This was especially true in the early days of tubeless when pretty much it was Stans notubes or UST. You'd save 100 to 150g going with stans over Mavic.

I've never once encountered the fabled tight tyre syndrome that seems so frequently reported on here, but then, I'm like the thumb guy.

With my own stans wheels I've just left the left hand side with a lower tension than the right
And have the right hand side right up to the limit
Done this with the older Olympics , my podium mmx and now the arch
And always given a good durable wheel
Does help I have a meter to measure the tension

I've ran stans rims since before they became fashionable, from about 2005. Mostly flows, but some crests in the last couple of years.

They didn't introduce the Flow until much later Shirley? The Olympic was their original rim about then wasn't it?

I could be up to a year out.

The olympic was around for a little while before the flow. In May 2005 I got my 5spot frame and I put my F519's on it. By the end of the year I had traded up to DT swiss run tubeless with an eclipse kit (remember them? So yes, it would have been a little later, likely early 06 - easter 06.