[Closed] Standalone GPS units vs phones with app

Motorola Defy + Viewranger would be an option.

Or a Memory Map unit or a Garmin Dakota

Swings & Roundabouts.

Great. thanks Geoffj, will look into both. im loathe to get another phone since i already have one, but would be happy to buy one if it works out cheaper to do what i want with it.

cheers!

What phone do you already have?

GeoffJ...its actually a company phone, so cannot download anything onto it. i am able to use it though for personal calls (up to a certain limit each month!) so getting a new one just means i am spending more money than i need to....

I use an iPhone with an additional battery pack, but it can still run out on the long summer days, leavin you with no phone if something goes pear-shaped

I'm going to be the luddite here, but if you need to rely on technology then find someone else to ride with or stick to marked trails. If you can't learnt to read/use a map & compass than you are an accident waiting to happen. Oh - and keep the phone batteries for when you need to call for help, don't run them down using a phone as a GPS.

Just got a memory map adventurer 3500. Only used it once on the bike and its ace! scrolling OS maps rock.
Advantage over a phone - its waterproof and has a proper bar/stem mount using the spare battery cover. And the battery should last approx 6-8 hours, can carry a spare and can even use a solar USB charger.

I already had the software on my PC, so have all the maps I need anyway, which saved a few quid.

follow from druidh - I'd always carry a paper map and compass too, just in case. (although my old Garmin GPS saved my life twice helping us navigate in zero visibilty).
But for navigating new areas, it'll be brilliant not to have to stop and get the map out on every junction.

Druidh & co: Map & compass - yeah, yeah. I ride in the new forest & just want to be able to follow a preselected route*, not scale the north face of canclubbhdgn na'gak or whatever you "proper" bikers do on your weeks away from civilisation.

*better still, I just follow my mate who has a [b]satmap (excellent, BTW)[/b]. Mostly I don't know W(here)TF I am 😳

maybe get some friendly bearded type to show you how to properly navigate? go do a course... map reading gets a lot faster the more you do it - I would never rely on electronic means - have had 2 x gps fail on me in the past and was quite glad off a compass and a map...

paul

snowpaul - there's no denying map and compass are best, but you can't read a map while you're riding. You have to stop, get the map out, work out where you are and which way you want to go and head off again. Having the display on your bars is brilliant.
And you can't argue GPS is a hindrance. Any tips for navigating in the dark, in a snowstorm, using a map and compass? They only work if you know where you are to start with (I know, you should be plotting your route as you go), and if you can't see anything, its not ideal. GPS gives you your OS grid reference, take a compass bearing and away you go. Much quicker.

ir_bandito - Member
Any tips for navigating in the dark, in a snowstorm, using a map and compass?

Wow...seems i've started a debate here on map reading vs GPS! Just to clarify, i am well able to read a map (and also use a phone for that matter!), i always carry both with me and will continue to do so whether or not i buy something electronic. As i mentioned in my initial post, my problem is not that i can't navigate, its just that i have to regularly stop to check because i get so carried away in the riding and scenery. Yes, this might be more down to confidence in map reading but there is no way i would ever rely on electronic means over and above an OS map. its just that having something in front of you to confirm your route is something that would make my rides that little bit better, and after all, isn't that what we all want?
Thanks to Geoffj, Ir_bandito, scaredypants and snowpaul for your usable and friendly advice.

oh and sorry, i left out P20 there..thanks to you too! useful info on the iphone

Another vote for the "learn to read a map" party here. It's really not that hard once you practise a bit. The other huge advantage is that you can open out your OS map to see a much bigger area, which not only gives you a better idea of where you're going, but also lets you spot potentially new trails.

It's nothing to do with being a luddite, or inverse-snobbery about GPS, just that maps are better. A GPS is handy as an emergency backup when hillwalking in case you need to get a grid reference in a white-out, but that's pretty much it.

Oh, and maps are much easier to read in bright sunlight than a GPS. Don't waste your money.

Learning to use a map & compass and be able to navigate properly isn't difficult and it's time well spent. I use GPS and other things, but the best form of navigation, really is the good old OS map (once you know what you are doing) Being able to pick out landmarks in the distance and then follow a bearing really is very simple. Technology is good (I love a good gadget) but I use the GPS for recording rather than primary navigation.

Anyway, map reading is a basic 'man skill'* in my book!

*should be a basic 'woman skill' too, but Mrs Feet seems to be 'map blind' for some unfathomable reason 🙄

Cool, so you can read a map 😀

So, dedicated GPS or iPhone - I've used both and although the iPhone is useful (Cyclemeter is v good) I do find that it can wobble a bit with GPS reception and can under-read a track distance, etc. Never tried to navigate from an iPhone, but dare say it's do-able. Battery life can be extended but dimming the screen, but in strong sunlight that would mean it might as well be turned off!

just that maps are better. A GPS is handy as an emergency backup when hillwalking in case you need to get a grid reference in a white-out, but that's pretty much it.

Great sweeping statement there. No, maps aren't 'better' they just have advantages and disadvantages. And I'm speaking as someone who orienteered for years the old map and compass way and is apparently quite good at it. These days, map as backup if you're somewhere remote, GPS for the main work.

Back to the OP, by the sounds of it you want to explore rather than follow a set route. If you were just following a route, I'd say that a basic Garmin (eg Etrex H) would do the job perfectly well as that's what I used in the past. For mapping, you don't need an 800. A 605 will do the job perfectly well and can be got for £150ish second hand now and Garmin's warranty is very good. You can also get free mapping from open street map and similar which is actually better than the garmin maps in some places (eg around where I live!). Or you can spend even less and get a black and white one with mapping.

Map vs GPS?

I use both a lot - adventure races/orienteering etc with a map & compass is great & adds to the fun

I have a Garmin Dakota 20 [& a 305, & a 301 🙂 ] loaded with OS maps for cycling when I want to follow a route I don't know, it just can't be beaten when you want to simply follow a preplanned route and have no interest in the bigger picture.

so a vote for the Dakota 20 from me

Hi,

And welcome to Luddite central!

GPS with full OS mapping is the way to go.I'm just upgrading from a basic GPS and OS map to the dogs danglers, although I'm undecided at the moment.
Choice seems to be down to:
Garmin GPS Map series or Oregon.
Sat Map active.
Memory map.
I'll probably go for a Garmin unit, just because of their legendary support.

So much stuff on GPS on the web (as no doubt you have found) that it becomes confusing. And of course as soon as you've decided a new model is launched.

I've ruled out the phone option - eggs in one basket -and the Garmin Edge as I don't need all that heart rate and training stuff.I just like to quickly see where I am, where I've been and how far I've travelled.
Hth
Marko

** Yes I'll still take the OS map with me **

I've used pretty much everything available - I can't use a map and compass because I'm topolexic which means my brain isn't capable of visualising actual landscape from mapping and contour lines in particular.

My take is that the Satmap is the best standalone mapping GPS - bigger screen, more inutitive, good speed and reproduction of maps - but the Garmin stuff has the advantage of being properly waterproof rather than just weather resistant and Garmin's cross compatability with computers and web sites is very good, smaller screens though and map reproduction not as clear or fast as the latest Active 10.I find the Garmin interface a bit clunky, though you get used to it.

I've used the first, smaller Memory Map and unless you have an investment in existing Memory Map digital mapping, I wouldn't bother. Awful, hard to use software that's basically their old, outmoded PDA progrmme.

Or go for ViewRanger on a ruggedised - love that word - smartphone. Does everything you need it to and means carrying one less bit of tat with you on rides, plus spare batteries are small and easy to carry/change over.

Wouldn't use an iPhone, expensive and poor battery life on GPS with no changeable battery, so you need a back-up power pack. ViewRanger on iPhone equally good as on other phones btw, but the hardware's a deal breaker for me.

Anyway, that's my take on it. A lot of the user interface stuff you'll get used to with use, but for me, the Satmap has a more intuitive interface than any of the other standalone GPS units.

So you go to a new area and a local shows you some "secret trails", do you?

a. stop every half mile and plot the route on your paper map, annoying your guide in the process.

b. let your GPS record where you've been so that you can study the route at a later date.

I know which option I take 🙄

A GPS is handy as an emergency backup when hillwalking in case you need to get a grid reference in a white-out

that was the situation it saved my life
[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2410779205_60724ff59d.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2410779205_60724ff59d.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/pimpmasterjazz/2410779205/ ]Nearly there[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/pimpmasterjazz/ ]Pimpmaster Jazz[/url], on Flickr

then it got dark....

Me and the Mrs went halves on a Satmap Active 10 which is very simple to use, rugged and well thought out. Battery lasts for 8 hours+ and can also use normal AAs if you're off an a multi-dayer.

We've used it before to do the South Downs way, then back to Bristol via Salisbury Plain, picking and choosing offroad sections en route. You couldn't do this without carrying 5 or 6 paper maps or just taking a large scale road map. The down side is the price, slightly north of £300 for the full unit and 1:50k maps, but there also seem to be a few second hand ones knocking about.

It's possible to approximate the performance of a Satmap for about half the cost using a second hand pocket PC/PDA, a high capacity battery, a cheapo bluetooth GPS receiver and MemoryMap. However you don't get the ruggedness or ability to bar mount (unless you spend a pretty penny on a bulky weatherproof housing) and getting it to work requires a lot of tinkering.

I've got a Garmin Dakota 450 and really like it. The touch screen interface works well even with gloves on. With a pair of Lithium AA batteries in, it'll last you all day, and you can always pop a fresh set in if it doesn't. The screen is a bit on the wee side though, but still easy enough to read that you don't have to continually stop at every junction and get the paper map out.
It was pricey though, £300 with the whole of GB North 1:50000 landranger mapping on a microSD card. Having spent that money I was initially worried about mounting it on my bars as it's a chunky wee unit. However a friend bought one after seeing mine, and being cleverer than me, he mounted it centrally on the stem. Much neater and probably safer from knocks.

B. 😉

I wonder if the current GPS v paper maps debate is just a rehash of one that happened when the printing press was invented. I can just imagine the denizens of PeasantTrackWorld arguing that paper was unreliable nonsense and the only proper way to navigate was by feeling the mossy side of trees, or slaughtering a goat and examining its entrails.

BWD - how is route planning on the Satmap these days? Last time I looked at them, there was no "PC" interface and it was a bit clunky doing it on the device.

Mr Agreeable - Member
I wonder if the current GPS v paper maps debate is just a rehash of one that happened when the printing press was invented. I can just imagine the denizens of PeasantTrackWorld arguing that paper was unreliable nonsense and the only proper way to navigate was by feeling the mossy side of trees, or slaughtering a goat and examining its entrails.

TBH, I think the real worry is folk who think that relying an all-in-one Smartphone is some sort of answer.

[img] [/img]

BWD - how is route planning on the Satmap these days? Last time I looked at them, there was no "PC" interface and it was a bit clunky doing it on the device.

I love my Satmap and plan all my routes online on www.walkhighlands.co.uk

You can plan them on that sites 1:25k OS maps online and just upload the gpx file to the Satmap.

And just in rebuke to the idea that you can't rely on GPS as your only method of navigation, my mate did a slightly dangerous amazon jungle trek with only GPS to rely on (there isn't any mapping available) - they took three as backup but that was their only source of direction.

Is the OS mapping actually necessary?

If you plan out a ride beforehand on a computer, then send the course/track to the GPS, you can just follow an arrow black line and it's usually pretty obvious where you turn (and if you've gone wrong). Just about every GPS supports this, including my Forerunner, and it works fine for me.

Logging exactly where you've been, speeds, etc also works fine on just about every GPS.

You can buy a *lot* of paper OS maps (which you should probably have as a backup anyway) for the difference in cost between a basic GPS and a fancy colour screen digital mapping one.

BWD - how is route planning on the Satmap these days? Last time I looked at them, there was no "PC" interface and it was a bit clunky doing it on the device.

It's still clunky on the device itself, you really need to use with a map and it's still not ideal, but the SatSynch software for PC and Mac now works fine, so online route planning and transfer a GPX file over is the way to go. No different from anything else really.

Is the OS mapping actually necessary?

Are gears really necessary? Or suspension. Not really, but it's nice to have and it gives you a better picture of the terrain you're on and if you want to change your route or divert because there's a bull in the field you want to cross - yes, it happens - it's quite handy.

Why does everything here have to boil down to a black and white debate? GPS is neither good or bad versus maps, it has plus points and negative points. Ditto pretty much everything else, though you'd never guess it... Thanks to being topolexic, I don't have much choice but to use a GPS, but the bigger picture is that it has pros and cons. Like most people, it's not uniformly good or uniformly bad... 😐

Garmin Edge 800, Garmin Dakota (make sure it takes SD cards) or Garmin Oregon will do what you want, as well as Satmap and the Memory Map units.

The maps are all unit specific so you can't swap them between different brands of devices despite them all using OS maps.

They are nowhere near as user friendly as something like TomTom so bear that in mind! Theres a big learning curve with courses tracks, tcx, gpx etc. i'm not even sure of it all myself. Sometimes i plan a route in Memory Map and Edge seems to reroute to each waypoint via the roads even with road routing turned off.

BadlyWiredDog - Member
It's still clunky on the device itself, you really need to use with a map and it's still not ideal, but the SatSynch software for PC and Mac now works fine, so online route planning and transfer a GPX file over is the way to go.

Is the OS mapping actually necessary?

The other point to make is that navigational errors made while cycling tend to escalate fairly rapidly. Discovering you've gone up the wrong path while walking, you're unlikely to have to retreat more than 100metres or so. On a bike, with the head down and going down a nice descent, it's a bit dis-heartening to find you're gonna have to push/ride back up again 🙁

Paper maps, hah, i use a sextant and navigate by the stars!!!!

Personally id use a standalone gps, over a phone app. If your considering buying a iphone or a motorola defy, just for the purpose of navigating id say they were a bit compromised. If you have the phone already and want a GPS, just buy teh software and your away, but if you need to buy a phone and the software your nearly up to the cost of a standalone GPS that will have a better battery life and be a bit more up to the job in terms of durability. One thing in defence of the phone GPS, the sataletlie lock is a lot quicker the the garmin unit, even with AGPS turn off.

My advice (for what its worth) - try writing up route cards and using a bike computer. Surely the easiest and most precise way of navigating without a gps etc? Also has the benefit of having a good look at the map before riding.

Essentially measure distances until "decisions" and mark these on the route card with l/r/2nd fork etc. The route card will be small and can be taped onto your top tube

The other nice thing about the phone option is that you can - connection allowing - download mapping from, say, ViewRanger on the fly.

One other and cheaper for many option is to have a cheap GPS, black&white, no mapping with a trail to follow and then a smartphone with app to look at OS/OSM maps only if you need to - apps like EveryTrail Pro (£3 on iphone and I think there's an android version) allow you to download maps to your phone too so you don't even need a signal.

The map and compass brigade are the same lot who will be leaning on their horns when their advice is taken by motorists in front of them who stop at roundabouts to get the map out.

For sure use the map and compass as a safety device but the OP clearly stated he/she was after GPS advice. A paper map doesn't beep at you when you are veering off course. It doesn't tell you when you've reached a waypoint you have marked. It is tedious to judge distance with a map measurer and it goes out of date and cannot be updated.

I still maintain that battery life kills the smartphone option. But am wondering why you need 1:25 scale mapping? I would heartily recommend the Edge 605 which can be had to close to £150 if you look hard. You can download openstreet map to it for free, or shell out for Garmin topo. You'll get close to 12 hours from the 605. I don't reckon the Edge 800 adds enough value for the money. I have both, luckily I was given the 800 for some work I did for a friend. Glad I never shelled out for it.

Plan routes back at base on Tracklogs, print map (happy paper boys?) and then download route to GPS as a course and follow using either OSM or Topo on screen. If a path is not visible on OSM when you are out there..then use the paper map as backup and when you get home contribute back to the OSM effort.

the gps or phone is rather vulnerable on the bars in a crash tho

As BWD said, there's room for both. I like planning and following a route on a map, but there's a lot of riding out there that isn't on bridleways, RUPPs, BOATs etc or for that matter footpaths. Where I live there is very little (legal) doorstep riding that can be plotted on a map, but I'm sure there's plenty of people with a GPX file of a good "secret" route that can be downloaded in a jiffy. This is especially true of woodland trails. I'd bet most if not all of the man-made trails aren't that well marked on the map.

When I've ridden abroad I certainly wouldn't want to rely on a (usually poor) map to help me find and ride good routes.

Something that flashes at you or makes a sound at each junction would be great. I know on the road a Garmin Edge 506 was good for this. Not sure if you can get OS 25k maps for it though.
Its prob not worth buying a phone just for this, but I've been using viewranger for about a year or so and its great. So many functions that yuo dont realise it can do, but might prove useful in the future! You can plot GPX route files on a PC, upload them to it and follow the route - it'll flash/vibrate/beep at you as you pass waypoints or go offline. Its used by a lot of search and rescue teams now, so thats got to give you confidence http://www.viewranger.com/other/search-and-rescue

sorry everyone...that will teach me to not log on when im at work!! 😮

Thanks to all for some very interesting stuff here. i will no doubt be spending most of the weekend researching all of this...will report back with the results and what i decide. All of this is so useful and i want to let you know that i am very grateful for the time you have all taken to write this for me.

happy riding and hope you all get out this weekend to take advantage of the early (and no doubt non-lasting!) summer sun!

[i]Great sweeping statement there. No, maps aren't 'better' they just have advantages and disadvantages.[/i]

It's no more sweeping a statement than someone saying GPS is better. What it is, in fact, is an opinion. My opinion. And as regards the other part of your statement, in my opinion (again the crucial bit) maps have more advantages than disadvantages when compared with GPS. So therefore I'm quite entitled to say maps are better. Other folk obviously think differently. Fair enough.

And as regards the "Luddite" accusation that rather lazily, and tediously, crops up every time this topic gets debated, most of the folk I know that hillwalk or mountain bike do actually carry a GPS. However they very rarely use it. They prefer the old way as they figure it's still the best. We've mountain biked all over the Highlands of Scotland and have a few times tried out the GPS as a mapping tool. However we still go back to map and compass as it's quicker, more reliable, safer and more useful for finding new trails.

I do, as it happens, use a GPS when I'm on the road bike. However it's just a bike computer rather than a mapping tool. It's a Garmin Edge 500 and is a great wee bit of kit; I love it.

[i]The map and compass brigade are the same lot who will be leaning on their horns when their advice is taken by motorists in front of them who stop at roundabouts to get the map out.

[/i]

More likely we'll be the ones driving safely when the "I must have the latest technology at all costs" brigade are driving the wrong way up a one-way street because their sat-nav told them to go that way and they've long since lost the ability to think for themselves! 🙂