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Just been out on a lunch time ride which was going lovely until I came across a Derbyshire CC van. Two workmen were putting up a notice at the Redmires end indicating that in a couple of weeks it will be sanitised up to the Sheffield border which I think is Stanage Pole.
Crushed granite he said. Which I don't think is what they used else where so he's probably wrong. It's not road planings but its still bad news. He also said the horse riders have been complaining. Well I've been riding that section for 25 years and I can count on one hand the number of horses I've seen on there. May be that is why they complained. And i know we have to share the trails but still very annoying.
Got to say I've not ridden it or chappel Gate since they were sanitised last itme.
Not deliberately avoiding them, but I'm not local anymore so wouldn't go out of my way to ride the 'improved' versions after a long drive to get there.
Oi! DCC! I'm one of those pople who don't visit you anymore and don't spend money there as a result of your policy!
Is it not pretty flat all the way up to there anyway? As long as they leave off the pack horse path I can't see it making much difference
The rocky challenge is being removed. The silver lining is you can sometimes get a nice jump from a drainage channel.
I guess it's another bit of trail where we need to pray for a savage winter to return it to its previous state and show the council what a waste of money this all it.
I'm pretty sure the added speed from these super smooth motorway trails is going to cause some trouble soon.
Bring it on I say. It means the whole causeway will be rideable as a climb and those who aren't confident riding the plantation have an alternative dh.
I'm sure someone will complain it's not in keeping with the area but it's surrounded by man made stuff
It was only flattened a couple of years ago anyway, wasn't it?
Only half of it was resurfaced last time
I shall be interested to see if in 2 or 3 years time DCC still feel they have the funds to maintain these new motorways.
He also said the horse riders have been complaining. Well I've been riding that section for 25 years and I can count on one hand the number of horses I've seen on there.
Maybe that's cos it's too rough, so they cant ride it..?
We need a sense of perspective on these things. They don't exist solely for us to justify our 6" enduro bikes and show off our rad skills. They are there for the benefit of a range of users.
Give it a year or two and nature will take its course. Recent stretch of motorway near us is starting to show the old drainage channels and ruts reappearing.
Stanage will be overrun by mobility scooters before you know it.
We need a sense of perspective on these things. They don't exist solely for us to justify our 6" enduro bikes and show off our rad skills. They are there for the benefit of a range of users.
I don't think people are saying that, just asking for a bit of sympathy in the way tracks are maintained, which sometimes seems a little lacking where DCC are involved.
I'm actually beyond caring now. I await the day when the so-called Beast is concreted over and a whole bunch of STW apologists tell us that we have no right to query the action as the trails are for 'everyone' and besides, gates and dry-stone walls are man-made so this is just more of the same.
Genuinely, this is a mountain biking website, why shouldn't people stick up for the rights of mountain bikers?
why shouldn't people stick up for the rights of mountain bikers?
Do we have a right to trails with our preferred amount of gnar? I'm not sure we do tbh.
The "it'll wash away" argument probably won't be valid for much longer if they do any more work like the horrendous stuff they've put on Chapel Gate.
If they were stopping us riding these trails then I'd say BadlyWiredDog had a point.
But they're not. They are resurfacing the path to make is easier for all users.
As much as we might want these paths to exist purely for our enjoyment - they don't.
How would we react to 4x4 users wanting BOATS to be left in a state that was challenging for them, deep mud for instance? I'd guess that we'd be against that. And rightly so.
We have a right to ride the trails, we don't have a right to have public bridleways etc maintaned in a challenging state.
Si
Things change. They always have, and they will keep doing so. In a few million years the Peaks will look like this:
[img] 
[/img]
And then how will we all get our "gnar on"??
😉
Yes but... I can see the points about mtbers not having the right to expect BWs to be left to suit them but surely horse riders are expecting them to be adjusted to their needs. When Houndkirk was first M1d I met a group of walkers moaning bitterly about the new surface which was done allegedly to placate horsists. I know you can't please everybody but consultation wouldn't go amiss.
Rarely ridden up there, partly due to needing alot of road to link a route up.
Preference is for Horse users - hence the term BRIDLEway
It's a by-way...although with a TRO.
Things change. They always have, and they will keep doing so. In a few million years the Peaks will look like this:
Like somewhere in the US?
As I said about bit after Rushup that needed sanitising as it was dangerous to other users- how are horse riders supposed to safely navigate the trail? Its for everyone not just DH cyclists..
surely horse riders are expecting them to be adjusted to their needs
Last time I walked on it (a really long time ago) it looked impassable for horses. So by sanitizing it, it allows the trail to be used by everyone, not just one group.
It'd hardly be fair to exclude one group just to keep it to another group's preferences. You will still be able to ride it after it's been sanitized.
If horse riders had churned your favourite trail to mud, I'm sure you'd be arguing the opposite point of view.
Do we have a right to trails with our preferred amount of gnar? I'm not sure we do tbh.
'Rights' was the wrong word, what I'm trying to say is that it's not black and white, it's not unreasonable to expect sympathetic trail restoration - Cut Gate is a good example of this - and it's not unreasonable for mountain bikers to want trails that are interesting to ride.
But all you have to do on here is offer an opinion that simply flattening trails and covering them with chipping is possibly not ideal and you get all the stuff about how trails are for everyone, so flattening them is perfectly okay.
I'm a mountain biker, I'd prefer trails to be interesting to ride. Is that an unreasonable opinion to hold on a mountain biking website? Seems like it is, eh...
I don't think anyone actually enjoys the new surfaces other than horse riders (of which I see very, very few in the Peak). Walkers find them dull and uncomfortable going, they spoil views and cyclists don't enjoy riding them as well as their speeds likely increasing, upsetting everyone. The number of people on Chapel Gate on foot since they resurfaced it has plummeted, in fact I've not seen any on it in 2 years, nor many other cyclists.
Left as they are the horse riders, who are a tiny minority of Peak users, are left out but walkers and bike riders enjoy it more. Greatest good for the greatest number and all that.
I don't think anyone actually enjoys the new surfaces
Don't ride it then, plenty of trails around. It's not an MTB park.
But all you have to do on here is offer an opinion that simply flattening trails and covering them with chipping is possibly not ideal and you get all the stuff about how trails are for everyone, so flattening them is perfectly okay.
No you misunderstand. I'm not saying it's ok. Just that they aren't YOUR trails. If you have an actual point about the manner of trail restoration then make it, as you eventually have done.
I'm a mountain biker, I'd prefer trails to be interesting to ride. Is that an unreasonable opinion to hold on a mountain biking website? Seems like it is, eh...
Of course it bloody well isn't. Don't be ridiculous. Rather than assume we're all towpath riding types, which you KNOW isn't the case, maybe you should ask yourself if you haven't managed to get your point across well.
Sadly, the only places where trails can be maintained specially for mountain bikers are at trail centres. Everywhere else we can legally ride is part of a historic network of routes that developed initially for people on foot or with horses, and we are tbe johnny come latelys. They have to be maintained so all groups with a right of access can use them relatively safely.
It would be great if those who complain on here could bring sufficient weight to bear on the landowners/authorities to allow some specific mtb trails in the state "we" want them, if we could ever agree on that, but until then, we live and ride with what we have.
We need a sense of perspective on these things. They don't exist solely for us to justify our 6" enduro bikes and show off our rad skills. They are there for the benefit of a range of users.
I don't think the causeway was every that, it was/is an old roman* road cut/built into the side of the cliff. It's a spectuacular feat of 2000 year old engineering that it's a trail at all! The whole thing was rideable quickly on a 80mm XC hardtail with only a couple of sections requiring you to either launch yourself over a rocky outcrop or pick a line through.
It may have been impassible to horses due to the plethora of 4" stones that made up the surface, but it's probably been impassible to horses since the Romans left and we went into the dark ages 1700 years ago!
*I susppose a crushed rock surface isn't actualy that far off what it was originaly.
It would be great if those who complain on here could bring sufficient weight to bear on the landowners/authorities to allow some specific mtb trails in the state "we" want them, if we could ever agree on that, but until then, we live and ride with what we have.
"We" don't want a trail center type trail, "we" want the trails left (within reason) as they are. For want of a better word "natural". Completely sanitising them like this and dumbing down to the lowest common denominator isn't what it should be about, it's Stanage Edge in the Peak District, not frickin Center Parks or a trail center.
What would be the point of MTB specific trails, it wouldn't be 'Peak district mountainbiking', it'd just be 'A.N.Other trailcenter'.
I don't think anyone actually enjoys the new surfaces
Don't ride it then, plenty of trails around. It's not an MTB park.
This refers to walkers too. Are you really trying to tell 95% of the people that use the Peak to use other trails?
Walkers don't like a trail surface? That's a new one on me.
it's Stanage Edge in the Peak District
It is, yes - does confer any kind of special requirement? Is Stannage Edge supposed to be a particular way?
No, they don't. It's boring to walk on, and loose gravel isn't nice underfoot compared to solid rock.
He also said the horse riders have been complaining. Well I've been riding that section for 25 years and I can count on one hand the number of horses I've seen on there.
Maybe that's cos it's too rough, so they cant ride it..?
...which he acknowledged in his next sentence that you didn't quote.
They have to be maintained so all groups with a right of access can use them relatively safely.
It's a little bizarre that these lanes have been left in an "unkempt" state for donkeys years and suddenly DCC have decided they need maintaining. Some pressure has clearly been brought to bear from somewhere.
The conspiracy theorists might think that DCC feel if they sanitise trails the MTBers will go elsewhere. Problem solved.
I think it might be time for some modification to the status of some rights of way. According to Natural England some 78% of the 91000 miles of PROWs are footpaths. http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/access/rightsofway/prow/default.aspx
Maybe that balance needs some modification.
munrobiker - MemberNo, they don't. It's boring to walk on, and loose gravel isn't nice underfoot compared to solid rock.
There's walkers and then there's Walkers. We mostly get small-w walkers around here ime and they like smooth paths.
I'm a walker, and I can't stand walking on these wide gravel paths.
I know many more who are the same.
Stone flags are also borderline, but at least once they get a bit overgrown, they sit nicer in the landscape.
One of my favourite places for a stroll - Alderly Edge is getting ruined by making all the trails wheelchair access.
No you misunderstand. I'm not saying it's ok. Just that they aren't YOUR trails. If you have an actual point about the manner of trail restoration then make it, as you eventually have done.
No, I understand that. What you seem to be having difficulty with is the idea that it's not unreasonable as a mountain biker to think that sympathetic trail restoration is a good thing. You can believe that without claiming ownership of a trail.
And as Luke points out, the sort of surfaces which are being used are just as unpleasant for running and walking as they are for mountain biking.
But the reality is that whatever people say, you'll pick holes in it, because that's simply what you do. If DCC nuked the freakin' trails you'd emerge from a cloud of radioactive dust shrugging your shoulders and tell us all that it had to be done to save the trails and anyway, mountain bikes have no right to demand anything of anyone.
Hold on - this is the Sheffield side right - the bit that has never really been much of a challenge to anyone. The bit that's in better shape than many of the roads in Sheffield.
The only bit that is a challenge is the 200m from the crest to the gate posts on the Derbyshire side. That is now very unpleasant to everyone but the hardcore, but the cost of doing anything is prohibitive due to the state of the retaining wall.
So now we'll have two very smooth sections and a horrendous boulder field in the middle - that should keep everyone unhappy.
What you seem to be having difficulty with is the idea that it's not unreasonable as a mountain biker to think that sympathetic trail restoration is a good thing.
Well that's fine, and yes of course sympathetic trail restoration is great - my original issue was with whoever it was used the word 'rights'.
But the reality is that whatever people say, you'll pick holes in it, because that's simply what you do.
I don't pick holes in stuff that doesn't need it 🙂
personally, i'm not against a little trail 'taming' here and there - as Mr Podge points out, a tamed descent can become an [i]ascent[/i], opening up new route planning options.
the issue taken to DCC is that they're doing an awful lot with little or no consultation.
with a little discussion, the work could be
a) nicer
b) cheaper
c) more likely to last more than a few years.
all of the above has been achieved elsewhere.
molgrips - Member...plenty of trails around...
remember that this is the Peak District, where riding on footpaths is illegal, and bridleways are few and far between - people get a bit itchy when those few trails we do have start getting buggered about with.
One thing I've learnt from living in Scotland is that while every trail is open to everyone, it doesn't mean that is either passable or fun for either one particular group or in fact, anyone.
The sooner all of the UK adopts Right-to-Roam the better, and I would guess, cheaper for local authorities too - as they don't need to maintain to any standard (or as in Scotland, even put up a sign).
The repair work that is to take place on Stanage Causeway and the view-point of local MTBers both here and elsewhere (check out page 1 for links to Ride Sheffield and Peak MTB) has been well aired. On balance, there is agreement on two things:
1) The condition of this byway has deterieorated significantly in the past 10 years, mostly attributable to 4x4 usage. It needs to be repaired, but many would prefer if the repairs were sensitive to the nature of the surrounding environment and history of the history of the area. It would be preferrable if some of the track features are preserved, which would make it a more interesting route for all (whether on 2 wheels, 2 feet or 4 feet), rather than becoming a 3-4 metre wide gravel path.
2) Derbyshire CC have a history of non-consultation, and responding to single complaints and threats of legal action by flattening several byways and bridleways, often covering them in gravel or road planings.
When I first came to Sheffield 20 years ago I could ride down the entire causeway on a HT with 50-60mm of elastomer suspension (remember Manitou 3s?). Now the middle section has been torn up so much by the 4x4s that I either crash or give up and walk down that section. I'm sure it is currently impassable for horses. So personally I think it needs fixing so all premitted users can enjoy it. The sad part is that DCC only know how to fix it in one way 🙁
So now we'll have two very smooth sections and a horrendous boulder field in the middle - that should keep everyone unhappy.
No, it's the "horrendous boulderfield" all the way up to Stanage Pole that is to be flattened. The section from the pole to Redmires is the Sheffield CC part and that is not being touched
I don't pick holes in stuff that doesn't need it
I'm sure there's a job waiting for you at Derbyshire County Council… 😉
One of my favourite places for a stroll - Alderly Edge is getting ruined by making all the trails wheelchair access.
Yeah, fricking disableds.
It is, yes - does confer any kind of special requirement? Is Stannage Edge supposed to be a particular way?
Well, yes, it's Stanage, it's the Stanage Causeway, it is what it is, a rocky track off a rock.
In the same way I don't expect a rock garden on the local sustrans route, I don't expect a sustrans route on Stanage Edge.
So now we'll have two very smooth sections and a horrendous boulder field in the middle - that should keep everyone unhappy.No, it's the "horrendous boulderfield" all the way up to Stanage Pole that is to be flattened. The section from the pole to Redmires is the Sheffield CC part and that is not being touched
That's not what the OP says. The boulder field is on the Derbyshire side
The boulder field is on the DCC side, and the plan has always been for DCC to flatten that all the way up the Sheffield CC border at Stanage Pole.
The OP only said they were putting signs up at the Redmires side...
Just been out on a lunch time ride which was going lovely until I came across a Derbyshire CC van. Two workmen were putting up a notice at the Redmires end indicating that in a couple of weeks it will be sanitised up to the Sheffield border which I think is Stanage Pole.
Sorry if my earlier post wasn't clear, but I am sure what I said is correct.
In the same way I don't expect a rock garden on the local sustrans route, I don't expect a sustrans route on Stanage Edge.
The causeway is wide enough to allow for both - a smooth option for walkers, horses and touring cyclists, and a bit of rough for those of us who want it. Sheff has done that to an extent on Houndkirk, although the rough side is nowhere near as rough as it used to be.
That's not what the OP says. The boulder field is on the Derbyshire side
Exactly, the pole is the boundry, so the Derbyshire side is all the way to the pole.
Ah you might be right - I thought the OP said the work was from Redmires to the Pole - I didn't see the bit about Derbyshire CC workmen. Everthing makes sense now. I've had a bad week OK ?
Haha, yea, I did read it back and your interpretation makes almost as much sense.
Both might be true, DCC might be accessing the Causeway from the top via Redmires, I imagine it's a lot easier to move material down the causeway than up it.
If it wasn't clear the first time.
The Sheffield side is being left alone. (having had some work in the last few years).
It would be great if those who complain on here could bring sufficient weight to bear on the landowners/authorities to allow some specific mtb trails in the state "we" want them, if we could ever agree on that, but until then, we live and ride with what we have.
Or at the very least join either Ride Sheff or PeakDistrictMTB, we are trying very hard to do just that - actually sign up not just like on Facebook, better still join both the more people we have signed up the better, or attend the meetings being held.
A good example of an opportunity lost was the meeting held by the Peak Park about what happens to the North Lees Estate - Stanage Causeway is bang in the middle so it was raised. Unfortunately, the number of visible MTB riders was 3 - Henry and John from RS and me from PDMTB, we made comments and suggestions but where were the hoards of concerned riders? Oh yes, it was sunny so probably riding, or on here moaning about trail sanitisation!!
There was lot's of soothing noises made by PDNPA, lot's of nice touchy feely stuff about gathering thoughts and concerns, writing things on big sheets of paper and plans to 'share'. But guess who was not invited? Yup, DCC, the ones who have a legal obligation to maintain the causeway and who can, it seems, act with impunity. Surely, it would have been better to have them involved?
Additionally, at our meeting with DCC some months ago (there's a long piece on the PDMTB website recounting the meeting) the view was clearly stated that they look to restore the routes to a standard that allows it to be used for its original purpose - Stanage Causeway, according to DCC, was a packhorse route and therefore should be maintained as such. They also believed that the lack of horse traffic was due to the state of the trail, so they have a Field of Dreams view of the route.
The horse riders are extremely well connected, they have influence. They are very clever at applying the pressure where it needs to be applied and in a way that ensures they are seen as responsible and reasonable - it's a good plan and it seems top be working.
PDMTB is meeting with Peak Horsepower to try and understand what their ultimate aims are and if we share any common goals. We will post the outcome of the meeting on the PDMTB website. We are also meeting the NFU to do likewise and to try and understand what we need to do to get the landowners and tenant farmers to engage with us.
But in the meantime, join RS and PDMTB, the bigger the membership, the stronger the voice.
I don't visit the peaks very often so don't know the names of all the places, but about a month ago we went for a ride that started from Hayfield and went steeply up after a mile or so to the top of Jacobs ladder. It had been covered in fist sized boulders all the way and was bloody horrible. We kept yo-yo-ing past several groups of walkers who were all saying how awful it was to walk on too.
Last time we did that route it was a tough but do-able climb and i don't remember any features that would have been too craggy for horses/walkers.
AFAIK that work was done by the NT on a route across their land. There's a thread about it on here somewhere.
Thats a shame loved that boulderfield first time i cleaned it was in 2003 on my gasgas 200.That part of the peaks is becoming very uninteresting these days.
I've read a few pieces on this recently from the other points of view, including walking sites linked off the BMC.
The general temperament seems to be that everyone - including some 4x4 Greenlaner groups agree that 'bad' 4x4 users are to blame but some of the walkers and equestrians want to exclude anything with wheels - and most people fall between the two, but some lump us in with illegal scramblers. Cheeky footpath use seems to be a particular bone of contention. The sane/tolerant are putting this down to mountainbiking being a new sport with many recent starters who've never come across the concept of access rights and assume (wrongly, in the uk) that everything's fair game.
If there's outreach being attempted to try and sort the mess out before we get ourselves excluded as being too mouthy it can only be a good thing. Must try and make some time for this.
It doesn't surprise me. A few of the cheeky trails that I used to ride a lot in Wyming Brook have been turned into motorways which is a shame because they were great fun. I know they're not built for us, but even my folks who still live there and walk a lot don't like it. And they're old so yo would have thought smooth stuff would be easier to walk on!
Wyming brook...Motorways? No it isn't.
its more overgrown than it was 20 odd years ago.
The causeway was a difficult technical climb; on a MTB and to some extent on foot.
Now it is just a boring disgrace; to those on bikes and on foot alike.
Those of you that in some way think that the chippings are helpful; in turning it into an 'ascent' - really!
27 days ago I rode up those "chippings" on the singlespeed and they were fine. Probably because they are hard packed into the ground so yes it has been helpful
It's not supposed to be a difficult technical climb it's supposed to be a byway open to all traffic