I'll keep this as short as possible. This subject came up on here in relation to on-trail safety issues at GT recently. (Replies are reproduced with permission of the FC).
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My letter of 24 August:
Dear Forestry CommissionI am writing to bring your attention to the high incidence of speeding and reckless driving on the gravel road between the lower site and the Buzzard’s Nest car park at Glentress.
Speeding has been a problem for a long time but with the increased popularity of the venue, particularly at the weekends and with increasing numbers of young and inexperienced riders on site, it is perhaps only a question of time before someone is badly hurt or worse by a speeding vehicle or by flying stones from the same. My girlfriend’s bike was hit by stones from a convoy of speeding vehicles travelling at about 35mph three weeks ago, luckily it was not her eyes. I’ve regularly seen cars travelling in excess of 30mph, sometimes 40mph. There are reports of others executing hand brake turns on the site in front of cyclists. Being realistic, I am sure the latter is only by a small minority but the general problem remains.
There is an increasing atmosphere of tension between those on bikes and those driving the road in cars (ironically, usually with bikes on board) and it is perhaps this that poses the single greatest risk to safety. Several riders I know have made ‘stands’ against bad drivers by occupying the road width in the face of oncoming vehicles. In the long run this is quite likely to lead to injury or perhaps to assault. Either way everyone loses.
Frankly, the primary concern is the safety of children.
I would urge you to take action to control the speed of traffic on this road.
Yours faithfully
Tim Hetherington
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FC reply of 1 September:
Dear Tim,Thank you for contacting our 7 Stanes team on the above matter. It is
indeed a serious matter and my staff have been observing similar
incidents.I met with the Police last year to agree measures to take to reduce the
number of these incidents. Forestry Commission have reduced the length
of trails that directly travel along the forest roads and this has
reduced some of the risk but under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code,
people can walk and cycle along the roads if they so wish but we do
encourage all visitors to enjoy the trails that we waymark for their
enjoyment.Forestry Commission have also put in traffic calming measures between
the Red Squirrel car park and the Buzzard's nest car park. We are
monitoring the effect of this and if there is a requirement to put in
more of these calming measures I will do so as appropriate.I have also encouraged the Police to visit and to carry out speed traps
as I am sure it will only take one to be caught to get the message out
that it is a public road and you can not go in rally mode when you leave
the tarred road.I would welcome any vehicle registration that you feel is speeding or
causing concern and I'll deal with them with the Police.Regards,
Hugh
Hugh Mckay.
Recreation & Tourism Manager.
Forestry Commission Scotland.
Dumfries & Borders Forest District.
[phone numbers removed]
Agree with all of that.
Interesting...I noticed the traffic calming measures on Monday - thought they worked but did wonder why there was only 1 set right after the Red Squirrel...I think it would make sense to introduce some more further up the hill - might be a pain for the bikers slightly especially on the climb but it would ensure drivers are going slower.
I don't visit there often (about twice a year) so have never experienced speeding myself, but the amount of threads that get posted up on here suggests it is a regular occurence.
Wow. You almost wrote [i]Won't someone think of the children?[/i] 🙂
No-one like a grass. 😉
- might be a pain for the bikers slightly especially on the climb but it would ensure drivers are going slower.
The new singletrack climb means bikes are not on the road for most of the distance now -
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom?
Lots of cool kids on big bouncy bike walking them to the top?
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom
Lack of car parking capacity, I would think
TJ - you are so out of touch 🙄
I didn't see the new climb so missed that...which would also explain why I didn't see that many bikers riding up the road! Been a while since I was there so have missed all the 'news' about developments at GT...
new climb is good, it also allows you to see the new blue section and realise that it NEEDS to be ridden flat out in a Whistler stylee 🙂
>Lack of car parking capacity, I would think <
IIRC they've spent circa £3m buying up private dwellings and they are in the process of building a new visitor centre. Wont this scheme incorporate sufficient capacity for parking at one location?
Wont this scheme incorporate sufficient capacity for parking at one location?
dunno
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom?
What? you mean people would actually have to RIDE uphill? That's never going to catch on at GT 😉
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom?
Green route starts and ends from the top car park, so by closing it off you'd be making families (with young kids) trek all the way up to the top. Plus, you would be making all the kids/big kids who are only there for the freeride park hike all the way up. Glentress is about accessibility to all (regardless of your own personal opinion about how much exercise some of these people should get) and having the top car park is essential to that.
Back to the original point, I think by taking bikers off the roads you're encouraging drivers to drive faster as there are now fewer people to look out for. Bit of a catch 22, but I think its overall better for bikers to be off the roads (its more fun for a start!) and the FC should adopt more speed control measures, such as the chicane they've already put it. Maybe getting a ranger/volunteer to stand and record reg plates of idiots, then going and putting a leaflet on their window to the effect of "next time this gets reported to the police".
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom
Looking again at the response from the FC - it looks like it's a public road so not really sure how it could be closed per se
I have observed this problem too, I help with the kids coaching sessions sometimes, taught them some swear words they didn't need to know yet when a black Audi came flying down the hill a few weeks ago.
A fair point from Tim and a reasonable answer I think from Hugh, I would be interested to see if the police do anything. We called them to try and get an illegal trader cleared from FC land at an event a few weeks ago. (The guy had parked his botulism-burger van right on the edge of the carpark so people were queueing on a public road).
Long story short the police declared it to be a "civil matter" whatever that means, and went away.
I take it that fireroad is a public road, so enforcement is therefore a polic matter ? Also, difficult one for the FC to get involved with, if they start taking preventative measures they are to a certain extent leaving themselves open to the inference of responsibility for anything that happens.
Interesting, lets hope some kid doesn't get knocked off their bike.
Quality letter.
There are many highlights of which 'the saftey of children' is the most obvious but I'd like to congratulate you on these hidden gems...
luckily it was not her eyes
Either way everyone loses.
Don't understand ...
All 'fireroad' is public road in the sense that we own it - that doesn't give us the right to use it with motorised transport. All FC forest roads are gated / padlocked and therefore accessed by vehicles with express permission or permit. Why would Glentress be any different? Surely the situation is only arising because the FC are forced to permit access to alleviate a parking problem
All 'fireroad' is public road in the sense that we own it
To me the term 'public road' means a road which the public have a right to drive a motor vehicle on
EDIT: if that wasn't the case at GT - the police wouldn't have the authority to impose the public highways law on it
What are the implications of simply closing the road and forcing everyone to park at the bottom?
Apart from the fact that a much bigger car park would be needed? Also it would likely reduce useage, not much fun getting a freeride bike up the trail.
The lorries don't seem to be sticking to the 10mph limit...although they aren't screaming off down the hill full of material either.
I'm not sure what a leaflet of 'next time' will do...I wouldn't give them the chance...examples need to be set so don't let them know they will be done next time...get them done now so they learn and their mates learn!
The Public road aspect means that you have to abide by the highway code...therefore you can be done for speeding, reckless driving, driving without due care, etc...so something should be done now to make sure that is reinforced...
A fair point indeed though it wasn't clear to me from the response that it was in fact a public road. Cant think why mind you - it doesn't go anywhere. 'Speed traps' would imply there was a limit to be enforced - is it signed?
The unsurfaced access road is unlikely to be subject to a Traffic Regulation Order under the Road Traffic Regulation Act; which means no speed limit can be enforced. It may be worthwhile for the FC to clarify ownership / access / speed limit / TRO before we all assume the police have power to act.
'Speed traps' would imply there was a limit to be enforced - is it signed?
There are 15mph signs but I don't know if they are the correct size etc. or just ones the FC knocked up.
it wasn't clear to me from the response that it was in fact a public road
The FC letter says it is a public road.
I am sure it will only take one to be caught to get the message out
that it is a public road
Surely those sleeping policemen speed bumps are the best solution here?
Surely those sleeping policemen speed bumps are the best solution here?
And make them the size of the freeride tabletops 😆
Hmm, get the police to set up a speed trap on a "public" road (highway, or 'road the public have access to'?)
Methinks the response is tainted with the smell of bovine faecal matter...
I'll drop Hugh a line and see what he says about the police thing. Would be really sad if someone got hurt.
Apparently as a public body all Forestry Commission roads, if
they are open to the public which the road to Buzzard's nest is, are
public roads in terms of if there is a road traffic incident the Police
consider it as public road and they investigate. This is not the same
where Forestry Commission roads are not open to the public, if gates are
closed or signs are up saying no unauthorised access.
So it's only deemed a public road because FC permit access through what would otherwise be a closed forest road. Ergo they can continue to try to manage the problem as is or sort the parking at the bottom and force the poor Freeriders to try and pedal or push their way up what - 2km of trail.
Or move the Freeride area 😉
Or put in a chairlift 🙂
>Or put in a chairlift<
LOL
See Descent - World / Inners chairlift petition (cold) thread
Hels - was it a black A4 estate driven by a ginger? We had a run in with him on Saturday. He almost ended up in the ditch when he realised that one of our group wasn't for moving out of his way when he came round a corner at warp - finest piece of policing i've seen in a long time.
obstructing a public highway?
DavidRussell - find me a law and precedent to back that up wise ass.
were you cycling at the time, stationary straddling the bike or on foot?
I'm looking.
I was cycling. It has nothing to do with me though. Mate was cycling too. You might need more info though. He was cycling up his side of the fire road, close to the middle, beside another of our mates. You see the thing with these fireroads - they're singletrack roads with passing places.
obstructing a public highway?
I thought we'd established that it's not formally a 'public highway'.
Goan - they are not fire roads - they are forestry roads. They are not singletrack with passing places
I think the issue is that if there is an accident the Police will treat it as a public highway, so best to be observing the Highway Code if you want to come off best (legally speaking) in the aftermath of an accident. Which kind of goes back to one of the original issues in the source of this whole issue - following the highway code on (trails and) fire roads at FC trail centres.
I guess this means not standing around in the middle of the road deliberately getting in the way of speeding cars, as I and others are increasingly in the habit of doing, Leaving law enforcement to the cops? Well....what cops?
TJ - I know whats up there fella.
how can the polis treat it as a public highway in the event of an accident if its not treated as one in every other scenario?
I was initially fishing smee and you did bite 🙂 but its a serious question now.
what i've tried (poorly) to say above is its either a public highway, or it aint.
you can't investigate an accident and treat the road as a public highway if it wasn't treated as a PH in the first place.
Goan - so where are the singletrack road with passing places signs? For that matter where are the passing places? None of ewither exist and it is wider than a singletrack road.
The FC and Police line is that the road in question, like all open-access FC roads, is treated like any other public road (highway/singletrack/adopted/not adopted - doesn't matter), and it has an enforceable 15mph speed limit (for bikes as well as cars presumably), and it's illegal to injure people, drive without due care, drive under the influence of alcohol/drugs etc etc
There's one of them. Doesn't really look two cars wide now does it.
[img] 
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Invisible passing place sign?. Its plenty wide enough for two cars.
You were the one that mentioned signs. Not wide enough for a couple of car without going into the verge though is it. What would you know anyway mr all cars are evil.
It certainly looks wide enough for two cars to me, but a car thrashing along there at speed, meeting a couple of cyclists riding two abreast coming around a corner in the other direction is going to be in deep do-do. If drivers behave and stick to a sensible speed, then as far as I can see in that photo then there should be no real conflict. Trouble is, put some young drivers on a gravel road, and their surname changes to something out of Finland and they drive like an idiot.
Never mind the car issue...in that picture...where the f@ck has the enjoyment gone???
No idea, its just a random picture lifted off google images. Looks bloody cold though.
That pic was never taken at GT. No one has body armour and full facers on.