[Closed] Speaker cable

FFS is this a load of "engineers" stating that all that matters about cables is L, R anc C and they all sound the same?

Or because someone else on the internet said so, the above is true?

So expensive TVs, multi channel amps and speakers can make a difference to the reproduction of sound but the quality of the cabling can't?

correct.

Ranson - I've done the blind listening test. My wife who knows nothing about the subject switched between cable runs while I sat blindfold and I heard the difference. It's pretty simple.

A proper ABX study would require you to say if unknown cable X is cable A or B, more reliably than would be expected by chance. Assuming that's what happened, you can do what no-one else has managed to do, and a million dollars is yours. What are you waiting for?

I think what you're getting hot under the collar about is the difference between say £15 a metre and £150 or even £1500 a metre.

[i]So expensive TVs, multi channel amps and speakers can make a difference to the reproduction of sound but the quality of the cabling can't? [/i]

Well that depends. Normal cable doesn't, but the directional stuff definitely does.

Normal cable doesn't, but the directional stuff definitely does

I assume it's taken for granted that it's also asymmetric cable? Left and right.

Well that depends. Normal cable doesn't, but the directional stuff definitely does.

Only if you use special holders to keep it off the floor.

[i]I assume it's taken for granted that it's also asymmetric cable? Left and right[/i]

Well, of course, and also assumes that you've coloured the left +ve cable covering in green marker pen.

ransos - Member

It seems a pity that people spend so much on products that make no difference, but that's up to them.

How magnanamous of you. I could say it's a pity that some people close their mind to the improvements that cabling et all can offer but then they wouldn't listen, becuase they are know-it-alls, so what's the point.

How magnanamous of you. I could say it's a pity that some people close their mind to the improvements that cabling et all can offer but then they wouldn't listen, becuase they are know-it-alls, so what's the point.

Asking for scientific evidence of a measurable phenomenon is the very opposite of a closed mind. It's instructive that you get so shirty about such a simple request.

Well, of course, and also assumes that you've coloured the left +ve cable covering in green marker pen.

And that you keep the marker pen in the freezer.

ton - Member
one of my customers, who spends 120k a year doing home cinema stuff, has just finished reading this thread.
he say's he cannot believe the folk are so * gullible!
and that folk can spout so much shyte......

Your customer sounds like a *

ransos - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

ransos - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Evidence that something works? That's already apparent.

In which case, homeopathic remedies would be more successful at making people better than placebos...

it is not the remedies, it is the fact they are being looked after - that is why I reworded your statement.

In Bad Science the author discusses cases where patients with knee problems have been given a 'placebo' knee op and then shown improvement. Another example was some patients with pacemakers fitted but no batteries inserted, still showed improvement. Both compared to control groups.

And that you keep the marker pen in the freezer.

[img] [/img]

🙂

Your customer sounds like a ****

mate, every last single one of em............. 😀

I love cable post on here, is this the 3rd or 4th time we have had this come up on STW?

How long before we get 'I used to work for some expensive audio speaker manufacturer'

Then this post will be complete 😉

I love cable post on here, is this the 3rd or 4th time we have had this come up on STW?

and the rest.

as with any tech, the law of diminishing returns is pretty strong...

Really the fatuousness of some of the arguments on here is astounding. People making sweepingly dismissive statements about other peoples' experiences on what they can hear; reports that are very consistent about the quality of cable making a difference and yet people still decide to ignore the weight of that evidence because it doesn't fit with their view of how things should be? That's daft!

You've got that almost exactly the wrong way round. The fact is that individual people's experiences are extremely subjective, and confirmation bias is a massive factor. Ransos is quite right - where is the evidence?

From Wikipedia:

In one experiment conducted by a customer, audiophile listeners could not distinguish between short Monster cables and ordinary coat hangers.[10] Another reviewer concluded that "16-gauge lamp cord and Monster [speaker] cable are indistinguishable from each other with music."[11]

Monster has even produced cables where their advertised premium features cannot even affect the cable quality. These items include gold-plated optical cables, where the plating has literally no use in the proper function of the cable.

it is not the remedies, it is the fact they are being looked after - that is why I reworded your statement.

In Bad Science the author discusses cases where patients with knee problems have been given a 'placebo' knee op and then shown improvement. Another example was some patients with pacemakers fitted but no batteries inserted, still showed improvement. Both compared to control groups.

I don't think I understand your point. I was talking about where people are told they are being given a placebo, yet still report a better improvement than would be expected by chance. That sounded(!) analogous to your example of making a cable change you expected to not work, yet thinking that it did.

ransos - Member
Well, of course, and also assumes that you've coloured the left +ve cable covering in green marker pen.
And that you keep the marker pen in the freezer.

What's the best way to burn-in the marker pen? The stage and depth is okay but it just lacks warmth.

What's the best way to burn-in the marker pen? The stage and depth is okay but it just lacks warmth.

Cover two pens in blankets and have them duel overnight. It really improvements instrument separation and stereo imaging.

ransos - Member

ransos - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Evidence that something works? That's already apparent.

What evidence have you provided?

What evidence have you provided?

That it doesn't work? I refer you to Russell's teapot.

How long before we get 'I used to work for some expensive audio speaker manufacturer'

Then this post will be complete

Mission.

This entire thread is pointless when the majority of you will be using your expensive hifi to listen to absolutely appalling quality mp3s.

ransos, your "being hilarous" kind of undermines your credibility.

But I'm sure you're not bothered in the slightest.

YOU WIN!

ransos, your "being hilarous" kind of undermines your credibility.

I've no doubt you believe that to be true. But then you believe all sorts of things, some more credible than others.

Ransos, IIRC geetee1972 runs a Naim amp so would be ineligible for Randi's tests.

How long before we get 'I used to work for some expensive audio speaker manufacturer'

Then this post will be complete

I used to work for some expensive audio speaker manufacturer. Actually, I still do. Is this post complete or not?

RichP, you're Sarum based, IIRC. ❓

💡

So want do you think of the cable I bought then
Any good 🙁

It'll be fine. Don't worry so much, dig out a favourite album and enjoy 🙂

Well it's not specifically speaker cable (not at all actually), but when I bought my Cyrus amp and CD the shop were using an £80 interconnect. Having chosen the boxes I listened to the interconnects - £40, £80 , £120 and £300. I'd already heard the £80, so I thought I'd listen to the £40. Great I thought it sounds the same. But I listened to the other two as well. The £300 was the worst of the lot in my opinion, but the £120 was the best.

To my ears, on that day, with that CD in that room.

But I like it.

I used to work for some expensive audio speaker manufacturer too.

bingo, or should it be house 😉

If there were any solid independent double blind studies that proved a difference between standard quality and uber high quality cables I'm sure it would be to the forefront of any manufacturer advertising. It's not because there aren't any. For me case closed.

I suppose that it's like wine maybe..?

Frinstance..

Even at the most basic level, you'll get some meat head that swears their kenwood car stereo is the dogs danglies but wouldn't appreciate the complex and subtle nuances that mark the difference between valve and sold state amplifiers.. and you'll get some lambrini swilling piglet that wouldn't understand the differences between a white zinfandel and a cote de rhone..

I'm not saying it's a snob thing.. just something that you can learn to understand and appreciate if you choose to do so..
In the same way that there can be no definitive test on wine quality, so too with sound

it's a connoisseur ting innit..

Wonderful.

These threads are like poetry, like the ebb and flow of life itself.

4 pages and apart from ransos making sense, the most obvious thing is the way everyone goes on about the equipment....

....not the actual music.

Hilarious.

ton - Member
Your customer sounds like a ****
mate, every last single one of em.............

😆 No rule saying you have to like them tho eh...

MrSmith - Member
'Richer Sounds' has always been a good place to shop.
So is Halfords.

I would go to either if I was looking for a bike or audio equipment.

You'd go to Richer Sounds looking for bike equipment...They don't sell straight-jackets (or bike equipment).

the majority of you will be using your expensive hifi to listen to absolutely appalling quality mp3s.

hmanchester -
Member
If there were any solid independent double blind studies that proved a difference between standard quality and uber high quality cables I'm sure it would be to the forefront of any manufacturer advertising. It's not because there aren't any. For me case closed.

Case open, surely.

holy craparel. four pages on speaker cabling 🙄

yes, kit above bog standard is generally an improvement on the cheapest and the more you spend the better it gets with diminishing returns, but...

whether it's bikes or hifi, it's not about what you ride or what you listen on it's about where you ride, what you listen to and how it make you [i]feel[/i].

[i]Where are those that disprove it?

Case open, surely.[/i]
😆

CDs and MP3s?
Well with some stuff no difference, but with Bits of Metallica or Jesus and Mary Chain the CD is spectacularly better.

Where are those that disprove it?
Case open, surely.

We've been through this.

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

And anyway, there are ABX double blind tests where no-one could tell the difference, even amongst people who consider themselves audiophiles. I have posted them before but CBA finding them again.

Well with some stuff no difference, but with Bits of Metallica or Jesus and Mary Chain the CD is spectacularly better.

Again there is a (rather unscientific admittedly) blind test I saw where they had top producers and sound engineers listening to various compression formats and the originals - they couldn't tell any difference. A low bit rate MP3 is pretty obvious, but I seriously doubt anyone hear could consistently identify a 320 KBPS MP3 vs the CD in an ABX test.

crikey - Member
Wonderful.

These threads are like poetry, like the ebb and flow of life itself.

4 pages and apart from ransos making sense, the most obvious thing is the way everyone goes on about the equipment....

[b]....not the actual music.[/b]

Hilarious.

RichPenny - Member
It'll be fine. Don't worry so much, dig out a favourite album and enjoy

Ahem 😉

It'll be fine. Don't worry so much, dig out a favourite album and enjoy

Best advice in the thread.

Apologies, and to emphasise the point; it's about the music, not the equipment...

..it's like having sex and arguing about the curtains...

I seriously doubt anyone hear could consistently identify a 320 KBPS MP3 vs the CD in an ABX test.

But how many people have their mp3s at 320? itunes is 128 I think. A lot of people listen to music on youtube too, which is a bit nuts.

People listening to anything off an ipod at 128 are wasting their money on any decent hardware.

mickyfinn, are you 'the' micky finn?

But how many people have their mp3s at 320?

I do, mostly, or at a slightly lower VBR setting - iTunes is 128 AAC by default I think but you can change it.

[quote=bigjim ]
But how many people have their mp3s at 320?
Raises hand.

grum - you've assumed that your position is the established one. Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.

Oh and crikey, you missed out "you sad losers should just get out and ride!" - that's the "pointless statement top trumps".

I've probably not been paying attention, but one thing I found that does make a difference - using screened cable. Are any of these posh cables screened, with proper connectors?

That's what would make a difference, not one-way copper or whatever.

Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.

There's an established industry in dreamcatchers, holy water, wrist magnets and crystals on string - all an established industry proves is that there are suckers out there who will buy something 🙂

grum - you've assumed that your position is the established one. Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.

This would be the industry that says this:

Let Odin feed your system and get ready for improved noise floor and resolution, increased transparency, dynamic range and freedom from grain, more believable sound staging, more natural life and musical dynamics, a breathtaking range of tonal colours. Suddenly the music will step away from the system producing it, taking on a life of its own, becoming a real performance – all because the power on which your system depends is cleaner and arriving quicker.

...not even about audio cables but about a kettle lead that costs 9 grand. That you plug into your standard ring main.

Again, look at what recording studios use. They don't use thin, cheap, poorly shielded cable, but nor do they use ridiculously expensive stuff containing magic silver or whatever. These are people whose living depends on being able to hear stuff accurately, and using high-end monitor speakers.

grum - Member
This would be the industry that says this:

That's one member of that industry, not the entire industry.

It's a shame you and ransos have to resort to quoting the most ridiculous/extreme examples, it does undermine your credibility. Even I am sceptical of much of it, but I have heard differences between cables etc and struggle to believe it was all in my mind.

Studios are different altogether - sure their stuff needs to sound accurate, but it's different to high-end hifi.

bencooper - Member

I've probably not been paying attention, but one thing I found that does make a difference - using screened cable. Are any of these posh cables screened, with proper connectors?

That's what would make a difference, not one-way copper or whatever.

Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.

There's an established industry in dreamcatchers, holy water, wrist magnets and crystals on string - all an established industry proves is that there are suckers out there who will buy something

IN THEORY a line level signal (2V) should not be affected by RF interference at all, no?

Your industry examples aren't that relevant - pretty much everyone owns a hifi and many can tell the difference between substantially different ones. Not the same at all to hocus pocus stuff.

Could it be differences in connectors? A copper cable is a copper cable - as long as it's fat enough for the load, then simple laws of physics say it can't make any difference. However good connectors vs. bit of wire shoved into a spring clip could make a big difference.

IN THEORY a line level signal (2V) should not be affected by RF interference at all, no?

Which theory would that be then?

Erm the one all the cable manufacturers adhere to?

That states that line level signals aren't affected by RF? Any references you'd care to share with the class?

And damn... I'd best call of that order for optical cable for work if that's the case! 😉

It is rumoured that the Egyptians used solid gold cabling and that the reason the pyramids were square based was to condense the quadrophonic speaker system internally upwards to the listener positioned at the pyramids summit, thereby pleasing the gods of bass, midrange and treble.

That's one member of that industry, not the entire industry.

It's a shame you and ransos have to resort to quoting the most ridiculous/extreme examples, it does undermine your credibility.

Sorry but the hifi industry is rife with snake-oil sellers and bogus claims - you'd have to be very naive not to see that.

Even I am sceptical of much of it, but I have heard differences between cables etc and struggle to believe it was all in my mind.

Confirmation bias/placebo is a very powerful thing, and the brain's construction of what you consider to be a coherent and rational reality is just that. Very small differences in volume can have a huge impact on the perceived audio quality of music for instance - people imagine they can hear totally different qualities as a result.

Ask yourself why have these supposed differences between expensive and inexpensive cables have never been shown in a double blind test, even by those who consider themselves audiophiles, using high end equipment? They don't even have the same level of evidence to back up their claims as the 'clinically proven' cosmetics products, and that's saying something.

Studios are different altogether - sure their stuff needs to sound accurate, but it's different to high-end hifi.

Sure, but the main difference is that one is largely based on proper science and practical applications of it, the other uses 'magic'.

Fidelity, fidelity, fidelity, it's all about fidelity and maintaining it as best as possible until it reaches our ears.

The system that gets it's sound from source to listener with the highest level of fidelity is the best.

The room you're in, the source, the interconnects, it all counts.

It's quite funny as well that people are arguing for the benefits of using more expensive cables than the stuff they used to actually record the music they are listening to.

Where in the signal chain does the extra quality magically appear from, if it wasn't there in the original recording (due to them not using expensive enough cables)?

So funkynick is it the pedantry prize or the "I know all about this but I'm not going to let on so I look dead clever" prize you want?

I could express my point better but you don't deserve it 😛

grum - where does the magic begin and science end then? which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?

So funkynick is it the pedantry prize or the "I know all about this but I'm not going to let on so I look dead clever" prize you want?

How about some evidence to back up what you're saying?

Here's some for you BTW.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

grum - where does the magic begin and science end then? which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?

I tend to trust Sound on Sound on these matters (though I'm not entirely convinced about oxygen free copper TBH).

Speaker cable needs to have a very low electrical resistance, so it needs to be fairly hefty and made from a pure material, such as oxygen-free copper (OFC). Impure material can introduce nonlinearities (the oxidised copper actually behaves as a semiconductor) that manifest themselves as increased distortion at low signal levels. There are many cables that qualify, including 30A 'cooker' mains cable, but a sensibly priced, heavy-duty speaker cable is easier to use and looks nicer.

Any product description that makes any special claims beyond having low resistance and decent quality connections is a big red flag IMO.

which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?

Something with low resistance. Like 30A mains cable. Or I've got a big reel of cable I use for electric bikes, rated at 60A - it's actually speaker cable too I think, costs about £1/m.

Resistance is all that matters.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

No Al... I was just asking for some evidence for what you said about line-level signals and RF, or a clarification, if you didn't express yourself very well in the first instance.

Oh, and making a bit of a joke... 😉 I know it's hard to tell on here at times!

Well, OK then, just for you, my point was that it's generally considered that line levels are sufficiently unaffected by RF so as not to need shielding in audio applications...becuase...wait for it...no manufacturer/expert/weirdo (that I know of) suggests that shielding is necessary.

It's a debate neither side will ever win. We're all losers 😎

We're all losers

'cept me of course..

if it was discovered that all the win in the world flowed from a mystical river, and you followed that river back upstream to find the source you would find me.. gleefully peeing all the win into the world

Line level signals are affected by RF interference due to the low currents involved - that's why cables are always screened (and also balanced in pro audio). Speaker level signals are much higher current (and greater voltage too but only by an order of magnitude or two) so the cables don't need to be screened - and screening would increase capacitance which messes with HF response and can cause amp oscillation (I've had this happen with class D amps and complex passive crossovers).

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Line level signals are affected by RF interference due to the low currents involved - that's why cables are always screened

...erm...except they aren't always screened?

[img] [/img]

The only other subject to stir up as much heated debate, vitriol and blind faith (on both sides of the argument) as this is religion.

Why do the sceptics insist on being so right in their belief that it's all snake oil and nonsense when none of them are actually into HiFi anyway?

And why do the audiophilles (of whom I am a recently lapsed example) feel the need to so fervently defend their own experiences?

I can say that there is a lot of margin in cables, big fat margin which makes me suspicious of the very expensive cables our there. You can tell there is a lot of margin on them because when you pick up any HiFi magazine, around 70% of the advertising is for cables. That says there is a lot of margin to justify expensive advertising.

is that DNM reson? i love the look of their amps (not heard them though)
i solved any cable issue by using naim cable with naim amps, one less thing to worry about and not expensive. 😀

5 pages in and no one has actually talked about what they listen to, only the gear they use.

It's hilariously sad.

MrSmith - yes, it's lovely kit.

crikey - Member

5 pages in and no one has actually talked about what they listen to, only the gear they use.

It's hilariously sad.

Why so Mr Supercool?

It's a thread about hi fi, not music. Are you thick?

Aw, do you need a cuddle?

Spend enough to get well constructed cables; anything more than that is a waste and would be better spent on the music itself.

That is all 🙂

speaker cables......pah!!!

my hifi (Rega Brio r/Rega Apollo r/Rega RP1 TT/Rega RS3/Rega DAC) probably 2.5k rrp, i use Chord Silver Carnivall at £5m it sounds fantastic..... i have no desire for anything costing more...waste of money if you ask me!