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Is there any real difference between £1 a metre and £15 a metre speaker cable in the real world
I've got some new tannoy v4 speakers, and want to get some decent cable, but not convinced /sure about expensive cable for what I need
Only the price!
Only the price!
+1
The majority of big studio and mastering suites use VannDamm Blue Cable which is a princely 6 quid a meter. If it's good enough for thepeople with the 5k monitors and golden ears that's as much as you ever need to spend.
Get cable with a reasonable no of strands for a couple of quid a meter and that will do the trick.
VannDamm Blue Cable
I suspect the main difference is sheath quality and flexibility (number strands) rather than any electrical properties.
You need the directional stuff.
Oh no...
Christmas is coming, lots of small children looking at the lights with wonder in their eyes, but you have to bring this up, now?
What's a reasonable number of strands?
I got 50m of Vandam blue for 75 quid. Ebay
Did all four speakers in the kitchen during first fix.
Wife happy, no cables showing.
Not crazy expensive system, but sounds fab.
Yes, and not just the price...
A few years ago I wired my front room for surround sound and HiFi, chose a decent cable and it sounded great. I've just done it with our new house too.
You can hear the difference between really cheap (as in the stuff that comes with speakers/HiFi) and better stuff. This time around I spent less though. Once you're spending over a couple of quid per meter, its decent stuff - I managed to get mine through an ebay seller at less than half retail.
I have this cable on my hifi speakers and it sounds significantly better than the cheap speaker cable from the local hardware shop that seemed exactly the same as the stuff privided with the stereo.
I just go into Richer Sounds and do and buy whatever the guy tells me...
Just get some 2 core electrical cable from B&Q or wherever
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Studios don't use speaker cables. Only crap speakers use speaker cables.
I personally think that there is.. and I've had the privilege of auditioning a huge variety of cables on some serious kit..
I had a very good friend who worked as an equipment reviewer for one of the most highly respected hi-fi mags..
He very honestly used to recommend upgrading cable as a starting point to any improvements to your system that you might be considering..
I used to find the whole thing quite laughable and a bit obscene until I was able to spend a lot of time around good equipment..
That said, Marijuana is still by far the most cost effective upgrade that anyone can invest in..
Yes there is a big difference !, but like most things, after a certain point you are paying for diminishing returns.
+1 for Rusty Mac with that QED Silver Anniversary stuff... Can't go wrong imo !
They can't improve the sound, they can only attenuate the signal. If different cables with sufficient conductor material alter the sound of electronics, then the electronics have a tweaked frequency response and you should get rid of them.
🙄
They can't improve the sound, they can only attenuate the signal.
If they're highly capacitive they can induce oscillation on some amplifiers 🙂
+1
That said, Marijuana is still by far the most cost effective upgrade that anyone can invest in..
😛
That said, Marijuana is still by far the most cost effective upgrade that anyone can invest in.
If it weren't for random drug testing & possibility of loosing my job... otherwise +1
Studios don't use speaker cables. Only crap speakers use speaker cables.
they use steam then?
I think that you want something with plenty of copper. Hard ware stores and ebay is where I would shop. Richer Sounds is cheap on its bundles but not on its cables
great article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_cable
If they're highly capacitive they can induce oscillation on some amplifiers
Exactly. A huge improvent to some amps 🙂
they use steam then?
Nope. 99% of studios use active speakers.
Can make a difference.
You need to look at your whole system tho, possibly not the best area to spend on
A 'system' is only as strong/good as your weakest link so yes it makes a difference.
Start with an 'entry-level' piece of cable and go from there. Look into proper terminals too.
'Richer Sounds' has always been a good place to shop.
JCL
But there is still a cable to a driver. Just because its not a consumer component doesn't mean its not there
Err, active speakers still need to be connected to the pre-amp and source. Same arguments apply to phono cables too.
I have a hifi system that I've run with Van Den Hul gold terminalled speaker cables and QED cheap stuff and you can't tell the difference.
I've got the same as Rusty. Was recommended in what hifi so went with that and happy with it.
Years ago I 'upgraded' the bog standard speaker cable that the shop gave me with my separates to some fairly decent stuff and the difference in clarity and bass was vast.
another recommendation for the VannDamm Blue Cable.
Ive got the 6mm for my fronts and centre and 4mm for the rears.
I'm just a bit puzzled by the OP's choice of forum nicname? 😉
So given the law of diminishing returns, whats the SLX equivalent of speaker cable?
csb - Member
I have a hifi system that I've run with Van Den Hul gold terminalled speaker cables and QED cheap stuff and [s]you[/s] [u]I[/u] can't tell the difference.
FTFY...was it properly set up etc?...
Speaker level cables are very different to balanced signal cables. The resistance and losses are higher hence another reason why they run active. The whole "studios are wired with this" statement is a load of crap as the priority for studios is that cables are flexible and don't break. Most studios I've visited use Mogami.
Can you still get Cable Talk Talk 3? I found that gave an appreciable improvement to my modest stereo, for little cost.
glupton1976 - Member
You need the directional stuff.
+1 if you don't by directional cable that is frozen and kept at -270 deg C or lower your'e wasting your life.
Not worth spending the ridiculous amounts some audiophiles spend but that VanDamme stuff is probably worth the money IMO.
Or just get this and cut the ends off. 😉
As long as it is mutistrand and oxy-free then you'll be hard pressed to tell any difference. It used to be that a rough rule of thumb is to spend approx. 10% of the system costs on cables and interconnects, but now that most interconnects transfer digital signals, i'd argue that is no longer valid. For example there is no sence in spending alot on HDMI cables, just go for something of decent build quality. But with speaker cable, unless you're comparing with really, really cheap bell wire yo'll be hard pressed to tell the difference. The human ear is just not that sensitive. I've used the QED Silver Anniversary stuff in my current set up and it is no better than the standard Richer Sounds stuff at half the price.
As if happens I have two 3.5m runs of Mogami speaker cable lying around from the sale of my whole system. It made an appreciable difference over the Naim cable I had; not better or worse but definitely preferable.
It's professionally terminated and cost £100 new (for the pair). If you're interested let me know.
Thanks for the opinions
Have gone for some cheap stuff at £1.20 a metre
Most studios I've been in used VannDam so it just shows. They also have multiple sets of monitors both active and passive. NS10's are passive and still in a lot of studios.
Gee tee
Thanks, I need 4 .5 metres per length
http://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/
These guys give great customer service, are very competitively priced AND based in Lancs! winner...
As geetee1972 says it will make a difference to the sound.
And as sound is subjective, some people like more bass or treble etc it is important to review any expensive upgrade with your system in your own home.
As geetee1972 says it will make a difference to the sound.
If that were the case, people would be able to tell the difference in a double-blind test. AFAIK, that's never happened.
🙄 @ easygirl 🙂
The quality of stereo cable should be high with minimum resistant level and best voice quality.
I have used stranded richer sound cable for years now, using an old sony 100w amp and a pair of tdl floor standers. your all welcome to and judge my setup. As spending the afternoon in richer testing out a variety of speakers.
My first job was in a recording studio, and all we used was stranded mains cable for the studio monitors, no fancy ofc stuff.
This s what I went for in the end
Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm
'Richer Sounds' has always been a good place to shop.
So is Halfords.
I would go to either if I was looking for a bike or audio equipment.
If that were the case, people would be able to tell the difference in a double-blind test. AFAIK, that's never happened.
It happens all the time. I did a blind test (double blind? Hardly necessary) and clearly preferred the Mogami over the Naca5.
Forget Richer Sounds for a start.
The other day I met someone who had just bought a bluray player from them and they duped him into buying an HDMI lead for £84 !
I use some Kef stuff but find the 2.5mm blue VanDamme stuff as good and it is cheaper.
You can get studio grade cable that is like the VanDamme but cheaper - can't remember the name thought.
I am not so sure about speaker cables improving the sound, but rather they are part of the whole electrical circuit that is the amp/cables/speakers, so they cable characteristics can alter the sound, for better or for worse.
For example, I found it beneficial changing to a fatter, 4mm, speaker cable with one amp, but then when I changed the speakers to something with a more complicated crossover arrangement, the sound became 'phasy' and changing back to a thinner, 2.5mm, cable solved it.
So ideally you need to experiment with different cable topologies, rather than cables of different expense.
But I have found the 2.5mm stranded blue VanDamme a safe bet.
Generally 13A mains cable does a great job - most improvements you'll hear over this are placebo effect related. The longer the run, the more the cable matters - if the DCR gets too high it'll affect the bass response of your loudspeaker, if the capacitance gets too high it'll affect the treble, but with normal house length runs it isn't an issue unless you're using skinny gauge.
'Richer Sounds' has always been a good place to shop.
So is Halfords.I would go to either if I was looking for a bike or audio equipment.
that should be 'wouldn't' but i guess you realised that 🙄
I use some stuff I found left in the airing cupboard when I moved into my current house.
The sound's much better than no cable at all - somehow "louder" and more "soundy" if that makes sense.
Generally 13A mains cable does a great job - most improvements you'll hear over this are placebo effect related
I actually haven't found that - although I wanted to believe it.
Tried it a few times now with different amps, always disappointed.
Ime cables seem to matter more with smaller speakers for some reason, they don't seem to make much odds if I am driving a larger speaker.
Plus they don't seem to matter as much if using a tube amp.
blue Van Damme 2.5mm at £2.80 per metre here:
plugs here:
job done.
I would imagine 99% of audiophiles would fail a blind listening test on decent cable compared with something that came with an Argos £20 hifi. In fact you could run it through some tinfoil and a couple of coat hangers and they would still be struggling.
The whole "studios are wired with this" statement is a load of crap
I used to have a workshop next to a recording studio and used to share a kettle with them. Sitting drinking tea one day I commented on their Yamaha NS10s with their white cones "Every photo I've seen of a mixing desk has a couple of NS10s around it - whats so special about them?"
They said "We bought them because every photo of a studio has NS10s in it. We hate them and since we bought them everyone we've asked reckons they hate theirs too" 😆
i have been selling speaker cable for 12yrs. to the trade.
£5.99 per 100mtrs
£24.99 per 100mtrs
guess which sells the best.
Ime cables seem to matter more with smaller speakers for some reason, they don't seem to make much odds if I am driving a larger speaker.
For equal SPL you'll have higher voicecoil temperature, greater cone excursion and more current flow with a smaller speaker, so the performance will be diverging from its small signal parameters. The voicecoil heating and cone excursion will increase the Q of the speaker, giving it worse transient response, so more DCR in the cable will exacerbate that through a loss of amplifier damping. With a valve amp there's already a huge amount of cable in the output transformer and valve amps have poor damping because they're transformer coupled.
NS10s are consistently nasty sounding but at least they're consistent! Hopeless for mixing unless you know what they sound like because they're so badly coloured but if you know them then they work well (but that holds true for many speakers...)
Cables. Mostly a load of BS. See point 1 here:
So what is the argument then, that speaker cables make no difference ever (and therefore anyone who says to the contrary is delusional) or that sometimes it does make a difference and that what is under debate is the extent of that difference?
Really the fatuousness of some of the arguments on here is astounding. People making sweepingly dismissive statements about other peoples' experiences on what they can hear; reports that are very consistent about the quality of cable making a difference and yet people still decide to ignore the weight of that evidence because it doesn't fit with their view of how things should be? That's daft!
i sell cables for a living, to the trade.
all kinds of cable, aerial, satellite, cctc, speaker, alarm, hdmi, fibre, cat5, and cat6, oh and electrical.
generaly a tradesman does not want to have to go back to a job for snagging, because each return visit eats into his profit.
so the stuff they put in works pretty well, and 80% of the time it is the cheapest choice they make.
It happens all the time. I did a blind test (double blind? Hardly necessary) and clearly preferred the Mogami over the Naca5.
Excellent, you can win yourself a million dollars.
Really the fatuousness of some of the arguments on here is astounding. People making sweepingly dismissive statements about other peoples' experiences on what they can hear; reports that are very consistent about the quality of cable making a difference and yet people still decide to ignore the weight of that evidence because it doesn't fit with their view of how things should be? That's daft!
Er, no. If there is a genuine difference rather than a placebo effect, it will be heard under a double-blind test.
10 years ago I bought an expensive new stereo based on CD-player, amp, speakers, stands and used v. cheap interconnects & basic thin speaker cable.
After a few months I paid about £80 for a posh CD-amp interconnect and a few metres of Chord Carnival (thicker) speaker cable.
I had also bought a subwoofer which arrived at the same time.
The cables alone made a huge improvement to the soundstage - I.E. musical instruments were better defined, improved bass & clearer treble, and we could now hear instruments in tracks we hadn't heard before! Sorry but that level of change couldn't be denied unless you were deaf.
I didn't even bother with the subwoofer, it went back unopened, I was that happy with the end result, and I listen to everything from classical & jazz to techno and D&B.
I still have all the kit now & it still kicks out a great sound.
If you have a few well produced, complex test albums to listen to - not the latest compressed pop cheese, this helps show differences better.
I just don't believe that studios wire up speakers audio inputs with mains. I suspect the mains flex is reserved for power inputs to active monitors, only!
Sorry but that level of change couldn't be denied unless you were deaf.
How come no-one's ever managed (AKAIK) to notice such changes under blind conditions in a properly controlled test?
Depending on the output stage of your CD player, using a better cable could make a difference. Likewise going from skinny to fatter cables. But once you get into vaguely decent cables (i.e. low DC resistance and low capacitance per metre) then any audible improvements from more expensive cables are vanishingly small. 13A mains cable makes much better speaker leads than cheap skinny speaker cable - just compare the area of the conductors!
For equal SPL you'll have higher voicecoil temperature, greater cone excursion and more current flow with a smaller speaker, so the performance will be diverging from its small signal parameters. The voicecoil heating and cone excursion will increase the Q of the speaker, giving it worse transient response, so more DCR in the cable will exacerbate that through a loss of amplifier damping. With a valve amp there's already a huge amount of cable in the output transformer and valve amps have poor damping because they're transformer coupled.
good explanation - thanks.
A speaker designer I know said that they used to have problems with their Quad 606s not being brilliantly stable and sometimes causing problems. My amps are 707s and 909s and so fairly similar.
One of the setups I use that gives me problems with the cables is when I use some external crossovers that he designed with LS3/5as - the crossovers have huge transformers and capacitors in which wouldn't fit in the speaker cabinet. This involves 6 runs of cable - one from the amp to the crossover and then two from the crossover to the speaker terminals that are coupled straight to the drivers. Sounds all phasy and wrong with 4mm stranded VanDamme cable (as recommended by Bryston and PMC) and 4mm stranded Quad cable, but fine with 2.5mm VanDamme or 1.5mm Kef cable.
Excellent, you can win yourself a million dollars.
trouble is that his test involves spotting difference in cables - so whereas I might be able to spot differences between some cables in my setup with certain amps and speakers, there is no guarantee that you would hear those same differences in another system - he may have some super-stable amp that is agnostic to any load.
The other consideration is the placebo effect.
Now I always expect a cable with reasonable parameters to make no difference - and so my preference is to buy a brown shielded cable so it doesn't show the stain when the cat decides to cr8p on it.
I am therefore disappointed/frustrated when I find a cable making a difference - I wish it didn't.
That has to be the opposite way round from what I would need to be affected by the placebo effect.
That has to be the opposite way round from what I would need to be affected by the placebo effect.
Not necessarily. In medical trials, people have shown a benefit from placebos even when they've been told it's a placebo!
Ransos you need to make an appointment with the real world some time.
One the one hand, lots of people say they can hear the difference that good quality cables can make in their systems. Those of that are happy in that conviction are happy in that conviction and we can go about our business thank you very much.
And on the other, you're argument is that we're are all experiencing something that is not real, that we are in some way disillusion and that the only explanation is that it's placebo.
Placebo in what way? How can a speaker cable be placebo?
Geetee, the reason the placebo effect is so significant in fancy audio is that ears are not actually very good microphones. Our hearing is good despite our ears being quite poor, because our brain is a very powerful and well optimised post-processing unit. If you make the brain think that it should be hearing an improvement then it is likely to work harder on the post-processing so you hear better sound. It's not that you're imagining there being an improvement because you really are hearing an improvement - but the reason you're hearing an improvement is not due to an improved sound reaching your ears, as that hasn't changed at all!
One the one hand, lots of people say they can hear the difference that good quality cables can make in their systems. Those of that are happy in that conviction are happy in that conviction and we can go about our business thank you very much.
Lots of folk will tell you how homeopathic remedies have cured their illness. Do you believe them?
It's very simple. If there is a difference, you will hear it under blind conditions. If you can't, there isn't.
That's the real world.
Not necessarily. In medical trials, people have shown a benefit from placebos even when they've been told it's a placebo!
but I was not expecting any difference at all.
For instance I choose a cable recommended by Bryston and PMC (two respectable companies, surely?) thinking that I could just plug it in and not have to worry, and was then surprised that there was a difference - my mind was not 'prepped' to expect a difference.
Lots of folk will tell you how homeopathic remedies have cured their illness. Do you believe them?
if you word it differently - saying that a practitioner prescribed them a homeopathic remedy and they got better - then that is possible.
Our hearing is good despite our ears being quite poor, because our brain is a very powerful and well optimised post-processing unit. If you make the brain think that it should be hearing an improvement then it is likely to work harder on the post-processing so you hear better sound.
very true - it seems your mind scales you expectations depending on what it can see it is coming from. This is why I might think my kitchen radio sounds good, whereas in reality it sounds very mediocre.
one of my customers, who spends 120k a year doing home cinema stuff, has just finished reading this thread.
he say's he cannot believe the folk are so ****ing gullible!
and that folk can spout so much shyte.......... 😆
but I was not expecting any difference at all.
Just like someone who's been told they're taking a placebo...
if you word it differently - saying that a practitioner prescribed them a homeopathic remedy and they got better - then that is possible.
Or it's regression to the mean.
Or it's regression to the mean.
or not.
or not.
In which case, homeopathic remedies would be more successful at making people better than placebos...
one of my customers, who spends 120k a year doing home cinema stuff, has just finished reading this thread.
So expensive TVs, multi channel amps and speakers can make a difference to the reproduction of sound but the quality of the cabling can't?
Ranson - I've done the blind listening test. My wife who knows nothing about the subject switched between cable runs while I sat blindfold and I heard the difference. It's pretty simple.
The irony is that the difference while preferable wasn't better or worse and the cable itself wasn't expensive at £15 a metre.
I think what you're getting hot under the collar about is the difference between say £15 a metre and £150 or even £1500 a metre.
I tried Chord Signature at £2000 for two 4m runs and it sounded fine but no better or worse than the Mogami at £150 for two equivalent runs.