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If it's plasterzote your after it's made by zote foams. They used to have a factory in Redhill, I used it for bike seats and I just took sheets of it out of their skip. They told me to skip dive for it when I said I wanted a bit big enough for a bike seat.
I was told plasterzote was probably suitable for seats by a nurse, I can't remember what they used it for but the
hospital used loads of it, but it was pink.
Having felt how much the tube compresses and how little a huck norris does. I've taken the easy but more expensive option.
Been out for a short ride today on one of the converted wheels. Didn’t hit anything silly enough to get into any decent rim dinging situations so can’t comment on level of protection yet but what I can say is that the insert really does make a difference to the feel of the tyre.
the one I rode today was a 2.2 inch tyre with a cut down 40mm insert in it on a 19mm rim. Initially I ran it at my normal pressure and it felt a bit hard. Dropped down to my ‘you’ll be fine if you don’t ride like a twit’ pressure and it started to feel better, but still felt a bit over inflated so I dropped it down to what would normally be ‘squirmy and vulnerable but grippy’ pressures and it felt really good.
All the extra grip of the lower pressure but didn’t feel any of the normal squirm and it didn’t feel bouncy or wallowy, I also didn’t feel a fair few roots and rocks that I would normally expect to be able to feel at that pressure so I think the reduced volume coupled with some mild insert contact under compression was working together to let me run lower pressures more safely and with some added stability.
Will get some more ride time on and try different variants but initial trial is promising and I’m now as intrigued by the changes in feel as I am by any actual rim/pinch protection they may offer. Might be worth it simply for that!
Thanks for the link. Great money-saver, hack!
For less than £5 a wheelset if you trim the 50mm in half, it's got to be worth a shot.
Think 50mm halved in a Hope Enduro rim (23mm internal) should be spot on with 2.3/2.4 tyre? Or would a full 30/40 be better?!
Think 50mm halved in a Hope Enduro rim (23mm internal) should be spot on with 2.3/2.4 tyre? Or would a full 30/40 be better?!
I used the 50mm split in half on a 25mm internal rims with a 2.4 HR2 and 2.35 Magic Mary and it's worked a treat. I also found that the 2m length is pretty much the perfect length for 27.5 (just had to trim the smallest amount to make some space around the valve), so if you have 29er wheels you will need longer foam or have to join extra pieces.
I rode with this set up in BPW last week, and normally when I'm there I put extra pressure in the tyres to avoid pinches and tyre burping, which I suffered with on my first visit, but this time I left them how they were and even let a bit of pressure out of both tyres after a few runs, so ended up with 15psi front and 20 rear (I normally have around 22f and 25r) and had absolutely no problems at all, and riding those rocky trails with the lower pressures was so much better. For £10 (for 2 lengths and inc delivery) it's been fantastic VFM.
Been watching this thread with interest for a while. I've had a huck norris in the back tyre of my bike for a year. It's been pretty much unnoticeable in that time but it's clearly done it's job. I dented a rim the other week but I didn't notice the impact or get a flat. Upon inspection the foam strip is completely trashed - it has numerous cuts all the way around. I have installed the second strip as a replacement, but they are rather expensive for what has turned out to be a consumable item.
My next set up is going to have wider rims, and I'll be ordering some backer rod.
So when the tyre gets a nice big rip in it, whats the plan for those who have these huge backer rods in their tyres?
You can ride on it for a little I suspect but from what I'm seeing as it's less dense than the likes of cushcore I wouldn't want to ride on it for long?
I am tempted but that aspect is putting me off a little considering I've torn quite a few tyres recently. At least with a Huck Norris it's easier to fold up and put in your bag while a tube is installed to get you home.
I was thinking about this the other day and a hole that won't seal I would use the anchovies or duck tape for rips like I would normally. I also wondered whether a road/gravel tube with a long valve might work. You could then keep the foam in the wheel and the thinner tube might fit in the space above the foam?
Hope enduro rims no wonder you need a huck norris 👌😉👌
"You can ride on it for a little I suspect but from what I’m seeing as it’s less dense than the likes of cushcore I wouldn’t want to ride on it for long?"
suspect away - i punctured when i got a little lairy at the top of the larig au laoigh last monday. - saw it was a rock puncture wound in the top of the tread and didnt have high hopes of it sealing.
carried on to the bottom on a very rocky rough descent - albee it much less lairy .
tire held its shape well and didnt go all floppy - with a full 40mm backer rod in an exo 2.4 minion DHR on dt ex5.1d
got to bottom - decided to give it a wee bit of air and see what happened while waiting on my mate and as you say didnt fancy sticking a tube in and riding back to linn of dee with the backer rod round me neck.....
mirraculously it took air , held and even did an enduro yesterday at pitfichie on the same tire !
i expect its a consumable but at 2.50 if it saves on wasting sealant , tubes and tires thats a price im willing to pay.
“You can ride on it for a little I suspect but from what I’m seeing as it’s less dense than the likes of cushcore I wouldn’t want to ride on it for long?”
With the full insert in, its like riding on a too soft tyre, even if it can't hold any air.
Obviously you want it back to optimum asap, but as long as you nurse it, you can actually ride on it ok.
I'm sold on how the insert changes the feel of the tyre. I alluded to it on post about my first test some months ago, and completely agree with amedias.
This is looking promising, I’ve got procore in all my bikes but been less than impressed tbh...
Pro core works, and I havent punctured since, and no damage on any rims where before it was a problem for me, but both the inner and outer on every wheel need to inflated every time I ride, I’m sure the actual valves leak air slowly.... long time tubeless user, the pub bike is tubeless and hasn’t needed air topping up in over a year! So it’s an annoying hassle.
so might go down this route when my nearly new tyres need replacement.
I found procore wasn't for me too.
tagged for future mod to the bikes 🙂
Not quite as cheap as the closed cell foam backing rod stuff, but has anyone looked at Ratbites? 18 quid per wheel, in a range of sizes. Seem reasonably priced if you don't fancy the faff of cutting backing rod down. Very strongly considering a punt on one for my back wheel.
This is looking promising, I’ve got procore in all my bikes but been less than impressed tbh…
Pro core works, and I havent punctured since, and no damage on any rims where before it was a problem for me, but both the inner and outer on every wheel need to inflated every time I ride, I’m sure the actual valves leak air slowly…. long time tubeless user, the pub bike is tubeless and hasn’t needed air topping up in over a year! So it’s an annoying hassle.
so might go down this route when my nearly new tyres need replacement.
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Thats odd as I have Pro Core on one set of wheels that I only use for Alpine or rocky stuff and they’re fine for months.
Its not perfect though, I have punctured the inner tube both fitting it and riding. I’ve just fixed the tubes with patches, it’s rare and they deflated slowly. The Valves can be a pain for clogging too.
WTF is a ratbite?
I googled it and all I got was, uh, rat bites. It that an auto correct?
It is advised that the insert is inspected and potentially changed every 2 months.
From the rat bite home page....
sounds like longevity could be an issue?
or a sales tactic 🤔
the ratbite site doesnt inspire me to buy anything from them.
Sounds like ratbite are adding on 15 quid lazy tax to people who think it's a faff to cut (with a bread knife if you must) once and put in a hole for a zip tie.
I saw the new Mr Wolf system at Malvern today. Full mousse insert with a small diameter inner tube to adjust feel. Looked pretty good but it's £110. Per wheel!
OMG, that's one flakey e-com site from the 90s!
Looks like very similar material to backer rod foam. I note their pictures seem to shy away from product detail.
£15 lazy tax could be right.
Well I'm pretty lazy, so just hit the buy button, I will report on arrival.
Looking for some for 40mm stuff for 29x2.4 tyres. Has anyone ordered 20m of it and got some left overs they're looking rid of?
Based on this thread l ordered some 40mm and 50mm which turned up yesterday. I'm assuming its going to be like fitting a semi-inflated inner tube that's not as pliable.
So couple of questions before I steam in trying to fit it -
1) Should it be a tight/at least snug fit in the rim
2) Lap joint with zip ties and duct tape or another way of jointing the 2 ends
3) Better to fit full circle of cut in half (semi circle)
4) Should I have just bought a cushcore or similar purpose made kit
Cheers
Carl
I cut it to butt joint and zip tied it and pulled tight till it was snug on the rim.
I went with a whole round 40mm and it has let me get back to the car without running on the rim when sealant wouldn't work. Can't see a half cut one doing that job.
trail rat +1.
I've consistently said I think it's too low density to mirror cushcore without using its thickness to compensate.
Ok so Day1 in the alps natural stuff around let arcs with a bit of the black DH. My rim tape let go a proper huck norris in the rear and I could ride to a point to pump back up on three occasions. It was flat but doable.
Mate had a ratbite which looks and feels a lot like the 50mm packing rod I tried he had one moment of loss of pressure and the ratbite is looking tatty. Issues mean he's back in with a tube but the lower density ratbite has definitely suffered more than the huck, which does show a couple of bites.
And the high-density foam is expensive.
There appear to be at least three functions this type of thing serves, and different approaches serve them to different degrees.
-- pinch protection - all about placing a cushion between the area being pinched to spread the impact out and protect the rim (and tyre?) from permanent damage. Procore and high density foam ought to do this, low density foam not so good/durable judging by the accounts above.
- changing the tyre behaviour when not pinching - Procore will do this, some reports above say low density foam does, though I struggle to see the mechanism for it, high density foam a la Huck Norris wouldn't much, Cushcore ought to.
- keeping the tyre on the rim - anti-burping. Procore and Cushcore ought to do this, not sure about the others. Possibly there will be some effect with continuous low-density foam solutions as the foam gets pushed into the rim well by air pressure. If that happens.
This is not beyond the wit of man to test under laboratory conditions if anyone could be arsed. I would think the likes of messrs Schwalbe have done so, they seem keen on testing.
Anyone tried this with cx yet? Not cx racing but more taking your cx bike out on rides that are probably officially unsuitable for a cx bike (eg mtb trails with plenty of rocks or, come to think of it, something like the Three Peaks)
"low density foam not so good/durable judging by the accounts above."
had mine out last week after about 700km about 200 of that in the cairngorms on the natural rocks and waterbars a couple enduro races and at least 1 run from near the top of the larig au laoigh with a flat tire through rocks and waterbars down to derry lodge before i was able to get it to hold air and theres no rim damage - thats the main reason i went to foam of some kind as i went from really badly dented d521s to some dt enduro rims that are renound for not only denting but workhardening and cracking when you bend em back ..... .
held the tire on the rim and kept the shape. I also burp alot less , prior to fitting this i went through a phase of burping my front tire in hard cornering even with 30psi in..... now im down to about 22-24.
took it out anyway and yes it has a couple of cuts but nothing im going to be replacing it for any time soon.
My 50mm rod in a 2.6" rear tyre has some cuts but still looking pretty decent. I typically run 28psi, it's a Bontrager SE4 and I've had no burps, pinches or flats, despite several times at BPW, a couple of Enduro races and a weekend riding in Sanremo, in between my usual riding.
Not sure about all the sciencey stuff as to how/why it works, but it definitely does have a benefit.
I've got a 50mm uncut backer rod in the front and a 50mm cut in the rear (experimenting). The rear half diameter rod was enough to hold the tyre on the bead and let me ride 2km back (carefully) to the car after tearing a knobble off the tyre and it going flat in about 10 seconds on a downhill. Getting the tyre off was a mare as the foam was holding it really tight against the bead.
When I did get the tyre off there were quite a few longitudinal cuts from the rim.
I'm convinced it's worth continuing with the experiment, not least as I like running low pressures but don't like dinging rims (and I'm tight!).
I am running an uncut 50mm backer rod in the front, 29mm internal rim and 2.35 Magic Mary.
Feels good, happy with the feel on the trail and it's staying put for the Alps.
Have a Cushcore in the rear... again happy but actually prefer the feel from the backer.
Have ran Procore for a couple of years.... needs tlc but did a good job. Couple of years back did 90,000m descent in the Alps with SG Schwalbes, Procore and Stans race.... Never a problem.
Big advocate of running some protection, just so nice to hit sections with confidence that would have had me protecting wheels/tyres before.
Being time poor and (temporarily) cash rich I bought a Ratbite insert on Monday to go in the rear after I trashed a tyre at the weekend. It arrived today, so nice and quick on the delivery as he promised.
It's a bit more refined than backer rod foam, being profiled with radiused edges and a grove down the centre. It fits in the tyre, rather than round the rim, and I'll give it a proper test on Sunday.
Incidentally, I rode 1.5 miles back to car on a flat tyre and it was still firmly seated in the bead.
Took the backer rod out of the back wheel. It seems to enjoy soaking up Stans (and also Oko diluted with water 50:50). Denser material needed.
strange mine never soaked up the sealant.
Mines not been soaking up Caffe latex.
To be fair. Stan's didn't seem to do all that much anyway hence why I switched.
I'll give the spare rod a try. The original one had a fer holes drilled through it to allow the sealant to pass easier - didn't work, it seems!
Latest update from me...
This weekend I survived yet another biblically wet 24/12, and used it as an opportunity to try the inserts on a longer event in an XC setting.
Setup was thus:
- 19mm internal Rim
- 2.0inch TR tyre
- 30mm backer rod (complete)
- On a MK1 Scalpel with a whopping 67mm of rear travel
I've ridden this setup briefly before as a test and already worked out I could either lose 5psi or run as normal and have extra support and protection. During the dry laps in the morning I opted for the normal setup and ran at about 28-30psi and just got on with it. Newnham isn't that technical but there are lots of roots and pointy rocks that can easily cause a pinch if you're going full gas and get sloppy and I was (attempting) to nail the descents, quickest lap was a smidge over 31 mins and I wasn't holding back, no issues whatsoever despite thumping the rim a couple of times to the point where I winced but got away with it, who knows if the rod saved me or not....?
When the bad weather came in over night my rather optimistic tyre choice was causing me a few issues losing traction so I dropped the pressure down to about ~23-25psi and regained some composure on the slippy bits. I stopped mid lap to let a bit more out, can't be sure but probably down to about 19-20psi which felt pretty soft to the thumb test for a measly 2.0 inch tyre, but when riding felt like it was firmer, so probably the volume compensation thing kicking in there and it felt more stable than that kind of pressure ever has with those tyres on that rim.
At the lower pressure I was regularly feeling muted contact on some of the faster rooty sections and was happy that I didn't have to be quite as careful as I would normally. Also felt a bit more contact on the rocky descents but tyre felt nice and stable and again no issues, this time I'm convinced the backer rod helped as there's no way I'd have got away with that pressure and that amount of contact without it.
So to conclude, I'll be continuing to use them as there seems to be literally no downside, the weight is negligible and effects all positive. I'll probably experiment a bit more with the bigger rods in bigger tyres to work out the volume thing a bit more, I might even try a 3/4 cut 40mm in the 2.0 inch tyres at some point.
I'm toying with the idea of trying one of these cut in half in the rear, on a 2.6" tyre to see how it compares to 50mm rod in the same tyre:
Will report back!
My 2p's worth after a month or so running the 40mm backer rod. Its in a Maxxis Aggressor 2.5 WT on a Hope 650b DH Tech rim on the rear and it definitely works. I pulled the rod together to make a hoop round the rim and trimmed off an additional 40mm or so, meaning it was short of joining up if wrapped round the rim. So, off the rim I joined it with 2x zip ties and a short wrap of tape. Fitting it onto the rim I had to stretch it on a little but this ensured that it sat in the rim well and wasn't floppy inside the tyre. Tyre seated 1st time with a track pump and minimal effort. Cutting a small cross in the valve aids inflation too.
Running 26-28psi, (feels firmer) its stable at speed over a wide range of surfaces, I've not had any fitting issues, doesn't seem to soak up the Stans, although I guess this would change if it was cut length-ways. When pressing on you do get the occasional "oh shit!!... I've got a flat" feeling but so far, touch wood its just that.. a feeling. I've cased a couple of rocks and roots round the Peak that would have probably pinch flatted had the rod not been fitted and its taken the hits without issue.
I've got a 50mm rod still in the garage and plan to try this next time. I think fitting the tyre might prove a bit tricky though due to the volume it takes up.
All in all I'm pretty impressed for just over a tenner
Carlos
would 50mm backer rod be Ok in a 3.0 plus tyre on a 45mm rim Or will i need something bigger? and is bigger available?
@lawmanmx have a look at my link a couple of posts above, that's 65mm so probably a better bet I reckon, should do a better job supporting sidewalls on that setup. I'm using 50mm in a 2.6" tyre on a 33mm internal rim so that seems a sensible step up 👍
mmmmmhhh? they look a bit 'flimsy' compared to the solid backer rod stuff tho Andy, have you got yours yet? if so, what is it like in comparison?
Should be here tomorrow so I'll report back!
Soooo, has anyone tried a 50mm backer rod in a 3.0 plus tyre yet?
I Ordered from ratbite as it was a last minute decision before Alps trip.
Bit of a ballache getting the tyre mounted. 29er hope rim, 2.35 SG Schwalbe tyres. Had to cable tie the tyre as I worked round as the thick side walls plus the insert kept pushing the tyre back off. Got there in the end though and as I found out later it's easier with two people.
Probably ran my pressures to high as I wanted to avoid problems so can't comment on feel or effectiveness........ Last day though a broken spoke pushed through the rim tape resulting in total air loss. Scratched my head over what to do exactly as I couldn't be bothered to pull the insert out to run with a tube as it was nearly the end of the trip. So balls to it..... Rolled down quite a long rough trail for 5/10 mins on just the insert only. I was being carefull obviously but was surprised how good the insert coped. Started super slow but kept getting a bit quicker as the tyre kept its shape, just felt like low pressure.
Insert is wrecked now though. Got me thinking it would be good for races where it would get you to the end of a stage quicker than fixing.
Think I'll order a big roll of backer rod and experiment with size and pressures.
As mentioned the ratbite stuff is cleanly cut in half 50mm with radius edges and a channel down the middle.
Backer rod after a weeks Alps riding, I was aware of a few hard strikes on the rim on some descents. No damage to either the tyre or the rim.
I'm happy with how its performed for a couple of £
What size wheel,tyre and rod Bruneep?
27.5 DT swiss E1700 25mm / Maxxis Minion SS 2.3 and 40mm rod
First puncture for a while yesterday, three rides into my backer rod trial. To be honest one leak was the tyre tread (so a cut from a rock etc) and one was what I assume an existing dent. It was ok doing the 1km back but certainly wouldn't run it flat for long periods of time out of choice!
I did notice the rod was now a bit rattly inside the wheel, didn't pop the bead so off as the sealant worked so hoping the cable tie join hasn't failed and its just compressed a bit.
Ride feel is definitely different, actually feels worse at higher pressures as its draggy/damp feeling. Once you drop the pressure it feels better. This is 50mm backer complete in a 2.35 aggressor on 32mm internal (perhaps right on the border of the smallest tyre this rim would suit..)
I bought some of this to try in my rear wheel, it was a new setup a couple of weeks ago, I filled the tyre with 100ml of Muc Off sealant.
I removed the tyre this weekend out of curiosity and noticed that all bar around 30ml of the sealant had been absorbed by the backer rod. Needless to say I haven't put it back in.....
it was a new setup
New as in new tyre? I only ask as I always find I lose a fair bit of sealant up in just sealing a tyre when it's brand new, porous sidewalls and all that. I invariably have to top up again after a week or so with a new tyre, but then after that it's stable.
I've not noticed the backer rods I've been using absorbing much, 20-30ml maybe at worst after a month or so. It's closed cell so shouldn't soak up much at all.
When I fitted the backer rod it wasn't a new tyre, it had been on the wheel for a month or so before. With the Muc Off sealant being pink, the backer rod is now also very pink!
Re: backer rod absorbing stuff - if it was absorbing it all through it would absorb more than those amounts possibly, Have you tried slicing it through to see? Maybe that is the absorption into the surface layer where there are some open-ended pores?
Yeah, I can understand it getting a light coating of sealant but it really shouldn't absorb it seeing as it's closed cell. Mine certainly aren't wet through, even the ones I sliced in half lengthways before fitting, they have a layer of sealant on the cut face, but nothing more and have only gained ~10g in weight so can't have sucked up much.
I inspected my set-up whilst changing tyres at the weekend.
I have run a full diameter 50mm backer rod in a 29 x 2.4 Maxxis Ardent on a 30mm internal DT rim.
I have been experimenting with tyre pressures, some of which have been too low, and I have felt the foam rod saving my rims a couple of times. The rod had a few slits like those shown in bruneep's photos. Because the slits are only just at the very edge I think that there is actually minimal protection of the rim sidewall. I think the main protection is offered by the height of the full rod. Because the foam is much lower density than a Huck Norris, and because the rod is only just wider than the rim, I would suggest that a sliced rod would offer little or no protection on rims this wide. There was no liquid sealant in the tyre after 6 weeks.
I re-fitted the rod with a 29 x 2.25 Ardent Race, which was much harder to fit than the bigger tyre was because almost the whole volume was taken up by the backer rod. It rode lovely when pumped up though.
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How tight are you making the "circle" when fitting? Mine was a snug fit initially but is now a bit rattly inside the tyre- this is 50mm in a 2.35 Maxxis/32 internal rim.
I do have spare 2m lengths of 50mm if anyone wants to give it a shot, £5 for 2m + postage.
I pulled the rod together to make a hoop round the rim and trimmed off an additional 40mm or so, meaning it was short of joining up if wrapped round the rim. So, off the rim I joined it with 2x zip ties and a short wrap of tape. Fitting it onto the rim I had to stretch it on a little but this ensured that it sat in the rim well and wasn’t floppy inside the tyre.
From my post up there^^
Since being fitted its not become rattly and after checking has absorbed minimal Stans Fluid
Carlos
Cheers, will take it off today and trim a bit off.
I've had one go a bit baggy and rattly, chopping off a bit more and reattaching did the job.
I'm now on my 2nd insert in each of my HT and FS, both of which ended up looking just like bruneep's pictures, and I drew similar conclusions.
I'd like to try a 60 mm diameter insert with a little cut off the top for an air gap, but it seems that 50mm is the max size that's readily available.
I recently broke another carbon rim despite the insert, but it was an oblique hit from a sharp rocky halfway through a turn and there was no damage to the tyre or the insert, suggesting that it was going to happen regardless.
Irrespective of this, I'm convinced that the insert is providing some protection - ImI'definitely getting less rim strikes, and those I do notice are certainly muted. I also really like the ride quality of the wheel when they're in.
I am very likely going to be ordering some 40mm for my wheels this week. Is it advisable to use fresh sealant, or could i just whack a section in and top up a little more sealant if needed?
Won't do any harm to leave in what's already in the tyre and add a bit anyway
Cheers! Ooh, exciting times in the tyre pressure department!
A point on sealant by the way - I found that uncut, I didn't need any additional sealant, however, now I'm shaving a centimeter off its height, there is an area where the cells are exposed and also cut. This part has way more surface area. It does take more sealant, but only a bit and it's only adsorbed to the surface. Cutting an old insert through has shown me it's not getting any further into the structure of the insert.
Cheers Mr Officer. Can't not do it now. All the info I need, very nicely priced product, lots of fun to be had!
Anyone got some long cuts of this sitting around after ordering that I can buy?
The 1.9m lengths from dortech are too short for a 29er rim, but I don't want 25m!
50mm ideally.
zip tie two shorter lengths together then cut to size. no different really to the single zip tied joint ....
I'd prefer to have a single join - it's neater, stronger and will weigh less.
Plus someone must've bought the 20m roll already!
Probably but in the grand scheme of things it makes no odds.
OCD on things you can't even see must cost folk as fortune.
Iv just ordered 20 meters of 50mm I will be fitting it to 29er hardtail and 650b full suss
that should leave me with about 10 meters spare
mega. Sent you a pm.
I also have spare 50mm if anyone needs it
Anyone tried it on a gravel bike yet? I got 40mm wtb’s on mine I’m curious,.......
Right mine arrived today.
Tried 50mm in a 2.35 minion on an i23 rim
No way I was going to get the tyre on without damaging it as I couldn’t keep the tyre bead in the well
So I marked the rod and trimmed a strip 40mm wide 10mm thick strip off with an electric carving knife.
this leaves it 50mm wide 40mm thick, positioned so the new flat surface is to the rim curved side to tyre.
This lets the tyre drop into th rim and I could fit the tyre ok with a couple of plastic leavers.
It beaded up fine with a track pump and feels pretty normal. I’ll try it with my normal pressure and then drop down a couple of psi and see how it goes. This is on a hardtail so Iv usually had to keep the rear at around 30psi to avoid pinch and rim damage.
Lets see how it goes..........
Personally I found a cut down the middle - half noodle - was perfect. You're not trying to replace the entire bloody tyre / air cushion!
ive bit the bullet and bought a ratbite, im optimistic.