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So, test rode a Camino on Sunday, cracking little bike, stupid bullhorn handlebars and Sram groupset aside. I'd basically convinced myself to buy one and decided in my head the Ti was the way to go...
But then...
Looking at the GRX2 build, the Ti frame and build is somehow heavier than the Alu and £1k more expensive. I cannot for the life of me work out a. how and b. whether thus it's worth it. For the record I generally hate Alu bikes, harsh uncomfortable things, but the Camino actually felt ok.
Anyone worked out whther the weights are true? Even the shop were going on about how the Ti was lighter etc etc.
Don’t know about the weight, but there’s more to it than just that. If you’re bikepacking it’s less to worry about when strapping bags on. Then there’s the ride quality. If you can afford it, I’d have the ti.
Just checked the ti is heavier, not by much though
They list the Alu frame as 2kg and the Ti as 2.05kg so pretty close but yes the Ti is a tiny bit heavier.
I would ignore what they say on their specs. They have historically been utter crap for displaying accurate weights
Dunno but I have an aluminium gravel bike and it feels pretty comfy.
Not sure that ti is usually lighter than alu anyway, it's main selling point was always "shiny and a bit lighter than steel for 2 or 3 times as much money", wasn't it?
there’s more to it than just that. If you’re bikepacking it’s less to worry about when strapping bags on.
What's worrying about an alu frame?
What’s worrying about an alu frame?
Scuffing the lovely paintjob!
Ah gotcha now.
You can buy a lot of helitape with that extra £1k though.
Size you after? Selling my Medium ti soon
Size you after? Selling my Medium ti soon
Cheers, but alas I’ll need a large - boarder line between the L and XL
I have a Ti its a lovely thing. Never bothered looking the weight up.
My Ti frame arrived today (already have the Al version and love it). Weight was not on the list of considerations.
I've had a medium ti for a year now and its my go-to bike. utter lush.
seems more action than my fancy pants canyon endurance
Regarding the "stupid bullhorn handlebars" - what was the set up? I have a flat bar Camino and quite fancy some bullhorn bars. Can't stand drops but a different hand position would be nice sometimes. Bar ends or those funny Ergon grips are other options.
Regarding the “stupid bullhorn handlebars” – what was the set up? I have a flat bar Camino and quite fancy some bullhorn bars. Can’t stand drops but a different hand position would be nice sometimes. Bar ends or those funny Ergon grips are other options.
It was the flared drops with Sram Apex, so 42cm at the hoods, 50 on the drops. I didn’t like the way they tilt in as it made 1finer braking impossible as the shifter paddle hit your other knuckles. So only option was all 4 fingers on the lever but that was less secure on rough stuff. Then on the drops, the flare means your wrist is in an odd bent up position to brake.
I’ll concede I’m used to standard road bars but I didn’t feel like it gave me anything beneficial over a standard set up since you couldn’t brake effectively from the widest part of the bar.
If you hate drops, I’d personally go flats and bar ends
It's more about ride quality than weight, I think. If you can tell the difference that is. The other nice thing about ti is that it looks like, er, ti and it stays looking like ti after a quick buff up with a scotchbrite pad.
The other thing that might be a consideration is that ti is, if it cracks, repairable, albeit only by a skilled welder whereas aluminium is usually scrap.
But I wouldn't worry about the weight, even if Sonder's figures turn out to be accurate.
weight difference negligible between my ti v2.2 (GRX 650b) and friends alloy v3 (sram force 700c)
its the only bike i wouldnt consider moving on, great bike
Have a aluminium, often think about the ti but love it as it is and not sure I’d see enough benefit for the additional cost.
Personally a massive fan of the very flared bars they ship with, make a lot of sense to me. Using grx which may make a difference as find one finger braking and death gripping is still possible.
I've had a bike with the
said 'bullhorns' and similarly didn't like the hoods/ shifters having to be cocked over at an angle (which is needed otherwise the shifter paddles hit the bar when braking... rendering braking a 30% max activity!
I've swapped to a wider bar (44 rather than 42) and a much less pronounced 'flare' - for me that's sorted it (the hoods are still a little bit angled in, but nowhere near as much, so I'm now happier)
You can spec a more regular drop bar when you go into customise options when buying anyway. I've a V3 Al Camino and it's a great bike. As for the Ti weight difference I wouldn't worry, it's more about ride quality and durability of the frame finish and the warranty is decent. From my experiences on the AL frame, it rides really well and is compliant - it's not harsh in the least. The current iteration with a bit slacker geometry looks like the perfect evolution of the bike to me, and as ever they're cracking value.
Given that most people ride them with 40-45mm tyres at low(ish) pressures, I'd say ride quality would be difficult to differentiate between the Alu and Ti.
Love my Alu Camino. Wished I bought the Ti - for looks alone.
In theory titanium ought to be the best metal to make (none suspension) bike frames out of. The problem is stiffness...or more specifically people's obsession with it. Titanium has the highest strength to weight ratio of any metal, far superior to aluminium or steel. If you make a titanium frame to be just as strong as it needs to be you end up with something way lighter than aluminium. This frame though would have incredibly thin tubing making it flexy and difficult to weld. Stiffness is proportional to cross sectional area. Flex used to be seen as a great quality of titanium frames, my old cotic soda frame weighted 1.5kg and I absolutely loved the twangy feel. Not so now. In contrast my current kingdom vendetta weighs about 2kg. material has been added to increase stiffness. I wouldn't swap back because I want modern geometry, modern forks and bolt through axles but I do prefer the lovely feel of the older frames. The one positive is that because it is so over built it will out live me and whoever acquires it after.
In contrast if you build an aluminium frame to the required strength it inherently already has the required stiffness due to its exceptionaly low density and correspondingly thick tubing. Because you don't have to add material to gain stiffness you tend to end up with a lighter frame from a weaker material.
Just watch videos on how vertical compliance isn’t really a thing. Save a fortune and buy the aluminium one.
But yes looking at the frame weights the aluminium is lighter.
A nice bendy seat post is good for comfort
https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/
That article's interesting but it's also oversimple, they've basically decided at the outset what differences they think matter and then only measured that and declared anything that's not captued in those measurements as placebo. The real answer is "it's either placebo or it's something else that we didn't think of". Simplifying it all as vertical compliance is definitely oversimple, any deflection in any direction can make a difference since the relationship between rider and ground is way more complex than between hammer and nail. And simplifying it as "comfort" is oversimple too, I don't care how comfortable my frames are because I've killed all the nerve endings in my arse but the difference between a stiff and soft frame when rattling downhill stood up is really, really obvious. And of course none of it's better or worse, it's just different- I like a soft frame, some people want stiff.
And of course that's not just the material either, my solarismax is steel and is probably less compliant/stiffer/whatever than my ancient Scandal was, and certainly less compliant than my Soul was. My Soda was a noodle, my Ragley Ti was midrangey stiff, my mmmbop was pretty much my benchmark for "stiff enough to not ride well". Even with literally the same geometry, size and parts right down to tyres- I sold my Bop and got a Ti and frankly if you could ride both and not feel a difference lucky you because you're indifferent/numb enough to ride anything and be happy, it was like the difference between a hard and soft tyre- which again, some people will want to be at 18psi and others at 40 and some will have no idea.
It's not just about the material, it's also about shape and thickness and butting (ie how much metal is actually in the tubes)and bracing and bends and gussets and seattube size. But some materials lend themselves better to some characteristics than others- steel can be stiff but with all other things being equal that also makes it heavy, while an equivalently stiff alu frame would be lighter. And so on. But if you're going to make a nice, high quality steel frame, you're likely to make it lightly built. Ti, more so, which is why it has a rep for fragility- nothing wrong with teh material but designers tend to cut it too fine.
Anyway. Yep titanium can be heavier than alu, alu can be heavier than steel, there's no normal but equally summing up the value of a bike in weight alone is really daft unless all you're going to do with it is carry it
I have a Camino Ti on order, due any day. I am hoping that the quoted weight is garbage - seems really heavy when a Waltly (who I think make the Camino Ti) gravel bike frame is quoted at c. 1.5kg.