[Closed] "Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

I'm going to jump in with something here.

I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

Waderider - Member
I'm going to jump in with something here.

I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

"I briefly tried something and it didn't suit me so everything about it and everyone who likes it is wrong"

I have never tried it but i objected to the opinion of someone on the internet so I wrote a reply dismissing them rather than debate the points they raised

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

You'd not lose much over most 2x10 gears in terms of range. Perhaps the front ring was too big (a 10T x anything 30+ is quite a big gear). But aside from that, the feeling of big jumps and more so clattering in the 10T sounds like bad set up to me. I love 1x11 (SRAM or Shimano) but SRAM particularly is very tricky to set up right, but once it is I've found it quieter than Shimano.

[img] [/img]
Which gears were you missing? 32t leaves you with about the same as 2x 12-32. The clattering in the 9t may be an issue as there is no 9t.

Big jumps are more of an issue but personally I fend these days I'm not that likely to shift one at a time, one of the things people keep going on about with the new Shimano is the multi shift so most also go for bigger shift increments.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

and again based on the people I know running it very happily you are in the minority. Based on the number of 1x conversion my LBS does people want this and are happy to compromise with 10sp and expanders until 11sp hits their price point.

This ^^. We sell about 4/1 10spd + 11 spd to 20 speed. even 1x10 without expanders outsells 2x10 nowadays (probably I would need to check but its damn close)

Filthy on the road is not nearly the same as filthy off road

CX races being clean and dry? Water on the road less wet?

How does it do on day 5 of a 10 day off road tour, in the middle of nowhere?

Same way people in cars do long journeys?

A full charge is 1500 miles. Admittedly that's a doable amount in 10 days if you are keen, and incredibly fit, but if you really weren't going to see a plug socket in that time, couldn't you take an extra battery? They weigh next to nothing too, to counter that argument...

njee20 » Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles

I don't believe that. 3 minutes charge is nothing. Also, what if you do that and it lasts 150 miles into a 200 mile run?

I do. But then I have it so it's easy for me to check
For example my phone will charge to 10% in 5 mins, why wouldn't this?. Are you really saying you couldn't wait another 5 minutes before a ride? The battery lasts that long that if its out of battery, it's because you haven't charged it. In the same way that if you don't lube your chain it won't run smoothly. Charging batteries is the least common bit of bike maintenance I do (twice in a year, only needed it once)

Why in the name of all that is good would we swap out a practically zero maintenance thing, with something that needs[s] so much care and attention?[/s] no maintenance. Save for a couple of hours a year charging

Ftfy

Hang on is electronic shifting now being forced on us all? Good job I'm in today otherwise I might miss the SRAM/Shimano service trucks coming round to refit my bikes at gun point.

I'm going to jump in with something here.
I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).
The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.
Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.
The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

I'm going to jump in with something here.

I bought a Trek Superfly last year, it came with XT 2x10, I changed it to XX1. The range is plenty (I've done road group rides on it, and rarely use the 42), and the clutch mech works so effectively, even in the 10t, that I removed the chain stay protector.

Moral of the story is that it's personal and we're not all the same. 🙄

njee20 » Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles

I don't believe that. 3 minutes charge is nothing. Also, what if you do that and it lasts 150 miles into a 200 mile run?

The current required is nothing. Particularly for the rear mech. Do you regularly go on 200 mile 'runs' with no preparation whatsoever? Do you regularly forget to take your bag? Find yourself riding with no helmet and your gloves on backwards? Di2 may not be for you.

tomhoward - Member
"Filthy on the road is not nearly the same as filthy off road"
CX races being clean and dry? Water on the road less wet?

Fair enough point at first glance, but CX races are very short and intense and then the bike gets maintenance.

As for battery powered changers, it's introducing just another bit of faff. Another thing you have to check.

Now if it was charged from its own little generator that would be an advance. There's room in the freehub in the vacant space under the larger cogs in the cassette.

But would it then be heavier than a cable setup?

Will they be Bluetooth changers to totally eliminate wires? Think of the fun on a ride if you paired your changer with your mates hub. 🙂

How does it do on day 5 of a 10 day off road tour, in the middle of nowhere?

What bothers (mildly, not losing sleep over it) me on longer, more 'remote' trips is smashing a mech, not what system actuates it. Di2 isn't for me simply for aesthetic reasons, I just like to see how something works mechanically and I'm not into 'gadgets' in general. Luddite, if you like.
I really can't come up with any good anti-Di2 argument aside from cost and as this whole thread shows re any components, that's up to the individual and what they value, nothing more.

Will they be Bluetooth changers to totally eliminate wires? Think of the fun on a ride if you paired your changer with your mates hub.

SRAM are doing wireless, can't say I'm fussed by that.

[quote=tomhoward]A full charge is 1500 miles. Admittedly that's a doable amount in 10 days if you are keen, and incredibly fit, but if you really weren't going to see a plug socket in that time, couldn't you take an extra battery? They weigh next to nothing too, to counter that argument.

Miles mean nothing. Is that road miles on the flat, or off road highland mountain biking miles?

How many hours does it run for? How many consecutive 12+ hrs a day cycling can it do, off road?

Why would I want the extra faff and multiple extra points of failure? No one has said any advantages of electronic shifting on a 1x off road multi day system.

I can see there are maybe advantages for road riding with a front mech, as the system can adjust the bodge that is a front mech so it runs correctly, and the bike gets tended to at the end of every day.

[quote=njee20]Do you regularly go on 200 mile 'runs' with no preparation whatsoever? Do you regularly forget to take your bag? Find yourself riding with no helmet and your gloves on backwards? Di2 may not be for you.

Not the point, and veiled insults don't suit you.

Why would I want the extra faff and multiple extra points of failure? No one has said any advantages of electronic shifting on a 1x off road multi day system.

I'm not big fan of adding complexity to bikes but I don't think this argument stacks up. The electronic shifter eliminates many moving parts and possible failure modes, while adding a few different ones. I'd be interested to see a proper failure modes analysis but I'd be surprised if electronic systems had a higher failure rate.

STWers have never reported any issues with dirt ingress, and have never had to discuss the pro/cons between full length outers and open outers, nor ever had a SRAM vs Shimano fanboi shifter feel argument 😉

Wireless is probably not my preference, although thinking about it, bikes with random suspension arrangements could benefit more than UCI regulation road bikes.

maintenance - wazz it with WD40 after a ride and wipe clean. Job done.

1500 road miles? At a guess 85 hours? So between 6 and 10 days depending on the length of your days. Even longer if using 1x as the rear mech uses les juice.

Reports of failure of the current gen stuff are few and far between, failures from muck/water ingress are non existent that I've heard

So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

85 hours seems reasonable as a conservative estimate, Yep, and longer without a front mech.

Must say I agree about the limited benefit on single ring setups presently, but I imagine things will evolve and weights will fall. Also never heard of a component dying from getting wet.

Agree with Mike too, it's never been marketed specifically at multi day tourers, but I think that's naysayers trying to find a flaw. I'll be surprised if even 1% of folk on here regularly do 50 hour + 'rides' without access to a plug socket.

So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

Not the way I read it, it's just another option. Given that you can still get 7 speed cassettes which were probably "state of the art" thirty years ago it will be a long time before there are no mechanical gear systems.

[quote=njee20]never heard of a component dying from getting wet.

Lights / batteries screw up all the time due to wet / corrosion.

[quote=mikewsmith]So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

Not at the moment, it is only just being rolled out.

I have still to hear of any proper benefits to the system though, especially on 1x.

Plugging in my phone / lights / batteries and remembering / managing chargers annoys me enough, having to do that with my bike in order to replace a perfectly good functioning mechanical system that needs 5 minutes maintenance every year had better bring some serious long term benefits!

[quote=tomhoward]1500 road miles? At a guess 85 hours? So between 6 and 10 days depending on the length of your days.

With a new battery, at full charge. Battery capacity fades with age and use. Use a 1 year old battery for a day, forget / not able to charge it, leave it on draining it = ruined second day.

So the idea that a SRAM 11sp cassette means you can't so multi day yours isn't really an issue then?

Like most of this it's more that something new and people want to be grumpy welcome to STW

Use a 1 year old battery for a day, forget / not able to charge it, leave it on draining it = ruined second day.

Back to the 11-spd wide ratios though, 2x11 .. I can see good things in that for off-road touring. I've done ok for multi-day stuff on 1x6 with some SS sprockets stacked up, or a 9spd triple set up on other rides, so either way I'm not too fussed.

I ride my bike exclusively in environments full of highly explosive petrol vapour and I can't use any electronic components. How will Di2 work for me?

I live in the hills, surviving off the land and have an ethical dislike for anything electronic. How will I charge my Di2?

I ride my bike exclusively in environments full of highly explosive petrol vapour and I can't use any electronic components. How will Di2 work for me?

Fear not, Shimano are launching ATEX Zone 0 rated Di2 next year so you'll be fine.

Plus, if someone lets off an EMP, you're knackered.

I live in the hills, surviving off the land and have an ethical dislike for anything electronic. How will I charge my Di2?

Invents Di2
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Ends all long distance cycling tours

Lights / batteries screw up all the time due to wet / corrosion.

Sorry, I meant a Di2 component - ie a mech or shifter. Aware the components/accessories in general can die.

leave it on draining it

You can't "leave it on". Unless you somehow set up an intricate system of levers and pulleys to continually shift gear. Seems a bit far fetched purely to prove a point.

11-44 10 speed anyone?

[URL= http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/dansipods/C74E04DA-093D-4C83-BDB1-D2AC4EA1493E_zpsbevct9yh.pn g" target="_blank">http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/dansipods/C74E04DA-093D-4C83-BDB1-D2AC4EA1493E_zpsbevct9yh.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

[img] [/img]

[quote=dirtyrider ]11-44 10 speed anyone?

How much does it cost? 😈

No idea, their stuff seems similar to absolute black,

200 quid+ iirc

edit €272 , so just under 200 quid for the cassette, and extra mech bits

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/10sp-11-44-cassette

[i]200 quid+ iirc

edit €272 , so just under 200 quid for the cassette, and extra mech bits[/i]

don't start.. 😆

I don't get why folk would do that rather than just go X1 or GX, you're getting into very close costs.

Di2 for multi day tours?

http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/trans-am-bikes-mike-hall-ed-pickups-pivot-vault-bikes.html#lfDcT59V2mM5twtB.97

I don't get why folk would do that rather than just go X1 or GX, you're getting into very close costs.

Because they won't be forced into buying new kit!!!111!!!onezomg

When Di2 hits commuter bikes, at the right price, I for one will cheer: it could be proper winter proof if done right.

my sora kit worked just fine through winter.

a new rear mech costs ... £16.

my sora kit worked just fine through winter.

+1

A commuter bike is (should be) just a solid reliable knockaround. Put a couple of hundred quid of drivetrain on in and it becomes more nickable.

mind you, i would love to see Shimano/SRAM/whoever accommodate peoples' application as well as their budget.

in the same way as we have XT and Saint, depending on whether you're an xc rider or Dh rider, why not offer race/tour/sunday-caff-run/cx roadie groupsets?

Because the use cases for those doesn't really vary?

Possible exception of touring and CX, who will have different gearing requirements, and they have their specific options.

What would a "sunday-caff-run" groupset look like compared to race groupset?

Happens to an extent. Shimano do CX and "trekking" cranksets.

njee20 - Member

What would a "sunday-caff-run" groupset look like compared to race groupset?

from the top of my head:

racers get to keep their close-ratio (12-25) cassette, with a rear mech optimised to suit.

caff-runners might prefer a wider range (11-32?) cassette, with a rear mech optimised to suit.

caff-runners might still want something a little showy? (i do like sora, but the sti's are a little plasticky)

cx'ers might like a bit more thought put in for mud-management...

cx'ers might like a clutch mech?

racers get to keep their close-ratio (12-25) cassette, with a rear mech optimised to suit.

caff-runners might prefer a wider range (11-32?) cassette, with a rear mech optimised to suit.

But that exists.

I'd agree if Shimano only offered 53/39 and 11-23 cassettes, but they do 50/34, 52/36 and 53/39 on virtually all their groupsets, plus extra options on Dura Ace. They do what... 8 different cassette options!? GS mechs, SS mechs. It's an impressively modular system.

caff-runners might still want something a little showy?

What... like Dura Ace?

I said about 'cross and touring, they do have their own options, clutch mech is about the only one I guess that could have some merit.

apologies for thinking out loud.

Not trying to shoot you down, just confused, it seems their road hierarchy is very clear to me?

Better mix-and-match of road and mtb groups would surely help folk construct their own?

Shimano XT 11-speed 11-40 or 11-42. £74.99 retail.

Fire in the hole!

Waiting for the SRAM fanboys to bring up weight, range, etc.

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/shimano-2016-11-speed-xt/ ]http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/shimano-2016-11-speed-xt/[/url]

Waiting for the SRAM fanboys to bring up weight, range, etc.

Not a fanboy, but they're valid comments surely? Not that we know the weight on XT. Let's not have three parallel threads though eh!?