[Closed] "Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

I'm not convinced. The price is nearer to acceptable but how many pins that I hope won't work loose before the cassette is worn?

And impressive engineering? No.

"Down to"

Seventy five more quid just for one extra ratio?

I'm sure I can do a new cassette plus a 40T for less.

2 extra gears, let's see you get a 10t on a conventional one. The price looks about right for my next drive train change. Comparable with some stuff out there. Considering the use and enjoyment I get from my bikes I'm happy to spend reasonable money on it.

I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

The thing is that this will be such an OEM product that the likes of Merlin will be discounting the nuts off it by the end of the year. I'd be surprised if you won't be able to get one for £75.

If they'd kept the one piece design and got it down to that price I'd be impressed. Although more with the manufacturing than the engineering.

Seventy five more quid just for one extra ratio?
I'm sure I can do a new cassette plus a 40T for less.

No, £75 more for an entirely different cassette which happens to have two additional gears, one of which you won't get on an XT no matter how hard you try. Better? You're comparing apples:oranges.

A car can cost more than an XT cassette too. Rip off.

I refuse to spend more than £25 on a cassette. I'll be sticking to 9 speed and a dose of mtfu to go up hill!

I don't believe it is compulsory to buy one. Other cheaper cassettes with less gears are available.

The barely concealed seethe whenever something new is launched on here is a joy to behold 😆

Until there's some competition at this level (c'mon Shimano) they can price how they like

What was wrong with a triple.?

My first thought on reading the headline was 'great' but on reading on I did think £115 is a little on the steep side. I'd hardly call comparing it with a Shimano cassette apples and oranges. Yes it isn't much money in the scheme of things but it's an awful lot more than a £30 XT cassette.

much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.
Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.
I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

This x 100000000

I am not falling out of love with my Bike and riding it, but I have definately fallen out of love with Mountain Biking...

Mods, can we just merge these threads? http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/how-long-can-someone-remain-a-technophobe
😉

but it's an awful lot more than a £30 XT cassette.

much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.
Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I'm sick of people picking out a new and expensive component and claiming all mountain biking is now sooo expensive and the nasty nasty manufactures are forcing it all on us. No reason not to buy deore 9/10sp kit.
The difference between a £1000-1500 entry level bike now and 10 years ago is huge.

looking at the cranks, i reckon they might be suitable for shortening, so there's a good chance i'll buy some of those...

and a wide-range 11speed is a nice idea for those of us that struggle to set-up/operate front mechs (i'll include myself there*)

but "impressive engineering"..?

nope.

(*i cannot for the life of me manage to set a front mech so that 1click = 1upshift)

so, i like it, but yikes.

It's not even fair to compare it to an xt cassette, the technology is more akin to Deore- steel cogs held together with pins. The price is obnoxious, and even at a discounted price is far more than people should be willing to pay for a cassette. I too saw the title (in Mbr) implying cheap wide range and thought "great, a cheap big cassette to run with new shimano 11 speed to make an affordable groupset. Then I saw £115 and I was out.

Remember if you want to.fit it to your existing bike you will have to buy a new.driver on top of that price. Mental. It's a part that will wear out. Equivalent to charging £50 for a single shock bush.

I don't see what's so unimpressive about the engineering there - lets see you lot knock one up in your garage. What doesn't really add up is that it's much the same engineering as on a X1 cassette and the pricing appears to be mainly marketing driven rather than based on any advance in engineering - they've already sold X1 to everybody prepared to pay that much.

Am enjoying Rusty's contributions though - presumably you're aware of a problem with the pins on the similar X1 cassette?

[quote=munrobiker ]It's not even fair to compare it to an xt cassette, the technology is more akin to Deore- steel cogs held together with pins.

Nothing at all like a Deore cassette - far more similar to an XT, you do realise one of those is also steel cogs pinned together?

I don't see what's so unimpressive about the engineering there - lets see you lot knock one up in your garage

I think you're confusing "engineering" with "manufacturing". It wouldn't take long to knock up a model of the cassette in CAD and find someone to make one for you. It would cost significantly more than £115 though.

[i]I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.[/i]

Sad and ever so slightly pathetic

seems quite good value when surly charge £23 for a single cog 🙄

yes Al I see your point, its magazine arse-lickery of the highest order. It would be impressive it was the same price as a 10 speed cassette. It should be 9.09-10% more expensive...

The difference between a £1000-1500 entry level bike now and 10 years ago is huge.

But yes, cheap components are the expensive components (or unobtainable at any price components) of 10 years ago.

seems quite good value when surly charge £23 for a single cog

Cheapest 11-42 10 speed cassette is what, £55 but you need to modify a slx cassette for that. No bodging, £70 with an xt cassette. Plus you really need a 17t which seems to be about £10. £80. And that's with the cheapest expander cog, go one up and perhaps you're at £90. The GX gives you bigger range with the 10t and an extra gear for £115, doesn't seem too out of the way for present pricing. Whether I'd buy one is a different matter.

It's one extra cog for £70. Makes that surly look very cheap.

yeah but it can have 3 times the number of teeth. 😉

"great, a cheap big cassette to run with new shimano 11 speed to make an affordable groupset.

Of course maybe sram thought much the same then decided they didn't want to help sell their competitor's product.

It's oem gear through and through and I'd expect to see it priced against deore 610 builds given the rrp difference between an XT build and an x1 one vs the rrp of the group sets, then once you have an xd equipped bike you'll buy their cassettes any how.

Looks a bit, err, RoboCop

One of the things about previous iterations of SRAM’s 1×11 drivetrains was the high cost of the cassette. Here are details on the GX offering, according to the press release: “FULL PIN™ technology uses eleven lightweight, stamped steel cogs held together with 123 high-strength stainless steel pins. The result: a cassette that’s extremely light, durable and equipped with SRAM’s super wide 10-42 gear range that’s a perfect fit for any ride. The open design similar to our X-DOME™ cassette aids in mud clearance, giving you cleaner shifting performance and longer component life.”

[img] [/img]

XG-1150 FULL PIN™ CASSETTE
The XG-1150 cassette differs from the X01 and XX1 cassettes in that it is not a single unit, but is instead 11 individually stamped cogs pinned together to cut down on manufacturing cost. It weighs 80 grams more than the X1 cassette because the X1 doesn’t use pins to hold together the three unified cogs on the high end.

FEATURES
• 10-42T range
• XD™ driver body compatible
• Technologies: FULL PIN™, XD™ driver body, JET™
• Weight: 394g

What doesn't really add up is that it's much the same engineering as on a X1 cassette and the pricing appears to be mainly marketing

You've hit the rivet on the head there !

But until shimano offer some competition SRAM can get away with it
They've done their homework really price of an expander sprocket + xt cassette + a bit more for the 10t + shimano don't sell this = £~115

However as I've just gone back to shimano as I found the mid range SRAM stuff too flimsy I think I'll stick with my expander

Or an entire 1 x11 groupset for £460.

I can make a cassette last 18 months (riding a couple of hours twice a week) with a couple of chain swaps.

so that's £50 for a couple of chains, and £115 for a cassette, that's about a tenner a month...which puts us obviously into the stratospheric world of golf club fees and bats 🙄

Do Sram hold a patent preventing anyone else from manufacturing cassettes to fit the XD driver?

I know Shimano probably wouldn't anyway, just curious I suppose.

There is a real undertone of inverse snobbery here. Like you have to be some rich golf playing dentist to buy this stuff.

'We don't want people with money liking our sport, it's for poor folk'

With people spending money comes innovation and trickle down tech. Had no one have bought XX1 then this product wouldn't have existed at all. Now someone with (slightly) less money can enjoy it.

The difference between a £1000-1500 entry level bike now and 10 years ago is huge.

£1500 is entry level? 😳
I got my first "proper" MTB in 1986. A Dawes tracker.
It was an entry level £237...

Look at what £1500 gets you these days. A huge amount of bike. Stuff is expensive these days.

My first MTB was a 94 Kona Hahana that was £425 quid.

Totally agree jmatlock - fact is, this is loads more affordable than XX1 at launch, so factor the same incremental reductions as OEM stock comes onto the market and it'll be very cheap.

This is a good thing - it's more choice and accessibility.

Unlike what some strange people on here would like to believe, the lizard rulers of the earth aren't trying to force you to buy this. There are other, cheaper options. But this gives a great new entry point to 1x11.

Either buy it or don't. But for god's sake stop the inverse snobbery bullshit. If someone can afford it and it makes them happy, good. If it creates and protects bike industry jobs from R&D through to retail, good.

Massive marketing success, a whole thread about an SRAM product, one which most of us wouldn't dream of buying. companies often carry a top end product whuch is designed to showcase their technology, (think cars) perhaps this is priced to reflect the low production run / sales they expect.

I got my first "proper" MTB in 1986. A Dawes tracker.
It was an entry level £237...

That price equates to about £640 now, for which you can buy a vastly superior bike to your old Dawes.

Or five GX cassettes and a chain or two.

I can't help thinking that if we had all been running 1x gears for ever, slowly cramming more and more gears in and creating ever bigger and more grotesque cassettes while creating more and more ridiculous chain angles that create more and more noise while grinding cogs to dust......

If someone had said iv invented this contraption that will give to 2 or even 3 times the gears, much closer ratios, better chainline, make your drivetrain last 5 times longer, that weighs hardly anything and costs a lot less.....

Then that person would become a millionaire oveovernight.

By the way I love new technology and I own 3 dropper seatposts....and 3 front meths.

Look at what £1500 gets you these days. A huge amount of bike. [s]Stuff is expensive[/s] [i]Us bikers seem to be happy to be done over on prices [/i]these days.

FTFY 😉

[i]My first MTB was a 94 Kona Hahana that was £425 quid.[/i]

my ex bought herself a Giant Talon 1 for £600 a few years ago, it had hydro brakes, 3x9, and an RS front fork that actually worked (unlike forks of '94 vintage)

You can still buy inexpensive bikes. No one is forcing anyone into technology they don't want at prices they can't afford.

New technology for junkie mountain bikers: 3 front meths...!

So some beautiful thoughts out there. Would stw like to try and explain inflation and how much more their houses cost these days.
I bought my first full sus in 04,as I recall at that point spec and giant were knocking out a Base spec full sus for 1k to 1500. All brand new and with a warranty. The equivalent bike now is better specced, lighter and probably more reliable.
Even in this thread when I quoted a range people pick the high figure to make their point.
I don't feel gullible, I research what I buy, I make value judgements on both the function and life of a product. I am free to choose a big range 11sp,or a cheap steel 9sp.
Get over your multiple Yorkshire man mentality and accept that other people can have what they want.

But on a serious note at a time when 1x11 is without direct competition (get your act together Shimano!) bringing out a significantly cheaper option can't be a bad thing surely? Xx1 cassette RRP over £300 sells for significantly less so a new cassette with rrp £115 will probably be on CRC for about £60-70 before long.

Rusty Spanner - Member
I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

If you're happy being an impoverished eccentric, and these products don't inspire you, and you don't aspire to own then, then you could, you know, not buy them?

Cheaper 11 speed stuff cna only be good. And if 11 speed doesn't appeal, then what difference does it make to you?

[quote=nickjb ]It's one extra cog for £70. Makes that surly look very cheap.

£70 for the extra apple you get compared to the orange you'd get instead?

[quote=jambalaya ]Massive marketing success, a whole thread about an SRAM product, one which most of us wouldn't dream of buying. companies often carry a top end product whuch is designed to showcase their technology, (think cars) perhaps this is priced to reflect the low production run / sales they expect.

If we were discussing XX1 you might have a point. Once this ends up at the discounters (which will be by the time any of us needs a new one if we get a new bike with this on now) it will be at a pricepoint which will be quite affordable for most of us. This is actually widerange 1x11 for the masses finally.

I still suspect a double would suit my riding better, but this has me reaching for the gear calculators...

Clever business model. Throw stock at manufacturers dirt cheap, then charge the consumer a fortune for replacements (£100-odd for a ****ing chainring?!?!?)
Looks nice though.

Think how much extra material you are getting in that cassette compared to one snotty bit fashioned in to a rear mech hanger at least £20 🙄

There is a real undertone of inverse snobbery here. Like you have to be some rich golf playing dentist to buy this stuff.

'We don't want people with money liking our sport, it's for poor folk'

What it said was new [richer] folk have joined the sport and will pay silly prices for bits. Its much harder to argue against this "raphaisation" of the sport.

Inverse snobbery is just a lame insult - articulate your point of view without this please.

* you can literally buy a bike for that.

The product itself looks good to me (but not impressive engineering) , the cassette is a bit on the heavy side, but you cant have it all.

I'm currently using a one up 42 tooth with a shimano xt cassette, slx mech and XT shifters, and its works brilliantly, absolutely no complaints.

Give it another 12 months and I reckon I'll have switched to an 11 speed system of some sort, probably a combination of sram cassette paired with shimano mech and shifters.

[quote=Junkyard ]* you can literally buy a [s]bike[/s] BSO for that.

Fixed

I think you're confusing "engineering" with "manufacturing". It wouldn't take long to knock up a model of the cassette in CAD and find someone to make one for you.

Nope engineering is manufacturing.
What you're describing is doodling on the screen aka designing. And you won't be able to find someone who can knock up a working cassette using that pin construction from a cad drawing.

I thinks you mean that manufacturing is engineering. There is plenty of engineering that's unrelated to manufacturing.

All it would take us for shimano to make an 11 speed 11-46 to get the spread. Would fit a standard freehub and they'd have the whole thing wrapped up in a pretty little bow.

I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

I think anyone still running 3x9 is an impoverished eccentric 😆

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

Exactly the kind of attitude you would assume from the carbon road bike riding Rapha guys.

I grew up in a house where there was so much stigma about being proud of having naff all. Poor and proud. 'Stop being so flash with your bloody mobile phone'

It's easier to hold others back than aspire to greater things yourself.

Good old bike industry pricing

Calculate cost price, pick a random multiple and multiply the two together to get your mid point trade price, now double it again to get retail...

Nope engineering is manufacturing.

Manufacturing is a branch of engineering of course, but the proposition that I was responding to was that because you can't manufacture the parts in your garage then the engineering must be impressive - that's not so. I engineer lots of parts that I couldn't make myself, it doesn't mean they are always 'impressive'.

What you're describing is doodling on the screen aka designing. And you won't be able to find someone who can knock up a working cassette using that pin construction from a cad drawing.

I work with manufacturers day in day out that could easily produce that cassette from a set of engineering drawings. Producing them in volume at a marketable price is the tricky part.

Good old bike industry pricing

Calculate cost price, pick a random multiple and multiply the two together to get your mid point trade price, now double it again to get retail..

Yep that's why the bike industry is awash with multi millionaires.

I thinks there missing a trick with it only being xd driver thou 🙁

tbh it's not a rocket science product the issue is bringing the manufacturing cost down to allow it to be sold cheaper..
(Or the appearence of this as they want a product line they can position at a few price points...probably priced so with a little discount pushes the extender cogs out the market )

I think they're pushing the rear widths up anyway so no doubt next years amazing product will be 1x12

I'm quite disappointed the manufacturers have not all conspired to come up with a completely new standard that renders everything prior too it completely obsolete.

By the bike industries recent standards, they're slacking!

Impressive engineering would be if they had found a way to totally enclose the gear mechanism, run it in an oil bath so it didn't wear out quickly, and mount it where it would not be damaged by passing rocks or protruding sticks, or get clagged up in a bit of mud and then go through the spokes.

Still it's suitable for riders who only ride a small distance infrequently on maintained paths, or racers who don't mind expensive disposable parts.

If only someone made such a device as I have described. Could call it something like Rohloff or Alfine. 🙂

Or even that weird fluid hub thing 🙂 lots of good innovation but it always goes very niche.

I did like the mid hub gearbox thangs thou

Junkyard » * you can literally buy a bike BSO for that.
Fixed

Guilty as charged....Fair point

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

They are not a charitable organisation they have a business model designed to make money just like on one and Aldi

its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

I am sure there is a forum somewhere that speaks only in straw man attacks. No one has said this but you

that's why the bike industry is awash with multi millionaires.

I am sure the owners of Shimano, On one, Merlin, CRC , Gian, Specialized etc are millionaires so i dont get this point. I bet even Superstars owner is one by now.

Still a massive lol at paying loads more for less range.

...a £1000-1500 entry level bike...

Ah, the old multiply by three rule. Like it.

[quote=irelanst ]Producing them in volume at a marketable price is the tricky part.

Which is a very important part of engineering. Not necessarily something most people realise - they think designing (or fixing the plumbing 🙄 ) is engineering.

The way it is put together is quite impressive - plausibly there is a significant cost reduction compared to X1 (though I still think it's mostly marketing).

My biggest issue is the 394g - I'm not spending above 100 quid on a cassette that heavy, I'll keep replacing my xx1/x01 with like for like thanks

[quote=Junkyard ]I am sure there is a forum somewhere that speaks only in straw man attacks.

Damn, did I miss one?

Is this too late?

[quote=jmatlock ]its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

[img] [/img]

I think it looks bloody great, I can't be be doing with expander cogs etc so I'm running 30Tx11-36Txmtfu on my Krampus, at that pricing (-30% for CRC/Merlin/etc) the next time I have drive train reshuffle I'll invest unless Shimano come out with something better in the meantime.

My first MTB was a 94 Kona Hahana that was £425 quid.

Reality check:

£[b]425[/b] in '[b]94[/b] is £[b]773.59[/b] today.

[quote=Rusty Spanner]I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

[quote=mikewsmith]Get over your multiple Yorkshire man mentality and accept that other people can have what they want.

What is really funny is you'd NEVER get this kind of discussion on an American forum. They'll critique the engineering, yes the cost, but it will never come down to this kind of implied classisim we are still mired in in the UK. In the USA, doing well for yourself is celebrated. Aspiring is good. In the UK, you had better know your place, anyone who does well for themselves and aspires to better things is to be put down. It is ultimately a sad, dour, ground-in jealousy.

[quote=dirtyrider]My biggest issue is the 394g - I'm not spending above 100 quid on a cassette that heavy, I'll keep replacing my xx1/x01 with like for like thanks

I agree, it is a boat anchor. I'll stick to my £40 XT 10 speed 330 gram cassette for now.

Considering the use and enjoyment I get from my bikes I'm happy to spend reasonable money on it.

It's the pricing to this buyer that annoys me - what about what the product costs? See B&Q stocking 50 screws for £2 instead of being able to buy what ever quantity you want etc.

chakaping - Member

I got my first "proper" MTB in 1986. A Dawes tracker.
It was an entry level £237...

That price equates to about £640 now, for which you can buy a vastly superior bike to your old Dawes.

It will have more features yes, quality will be poorer and it will weigh a ton.

jmatlock - Member

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

Most of it sold direct online, no? So not supporting retailers at all.

It's the pricing to this buyer that annoys me - what about what the product costs? See B&Q stocking 50 screws for £2 instead of being able to buy what ever quantity you want etc.

Most of it sold direct online, no? So not supporting retailers at all.

It's called capitalism.

Who cares 'supporting retailers'? Buy stuff, the people making and supplying it make money, and hopefully make and supply more stuff. Brick-n-mortar is not any more or less worthy that any other supply method.

Maths check:

£773.59 is less than £1,000 and also £1,500.

I don't think it's jealousy, well not in all cases. Some people remember that you don't need an expensive bike to ride up and down hills, and the amount you spend isn't really related to the size of the grin you get in return.

It looks a bit slim. Is it rated for tandem use?

7hz nailed it.

It's ok to have nice stuff. And to aspire to nice stuff and appriciate it.

This place seems to want to belittle people who don't bodge stuff and buy the cheapest possible solution.

Maths check:

£773.59 is less than £1,000 and also £1,500.

No shit Einstein!

The point is, £773.59 for a rigid steel bike with rim brakes, quill stem etc, vs £1,000 for an aluminium hardtail with disc brakes etc etc.

I don't think it's jealousy, well not in all cases. Some people remember that you don't need an expensive bike to ride up and down hills, and the amount you spend isn't really related to the size of the grin you get in return.

Right, but the sum total of no one implied that you need this cassette to 'ride up and down hills'. No one is being forced to spend money on bikes. If you are so inclined, you can get a £10 beater in the local ads, give it some TLC, and ride it about. That is fine. But there is no need to sneer at other people who enjoy spending more of their hard earned on shiny new bits.