[Closed] Sodden trails: Should we be riding? Discuss

Slightly less than "Donkey Walloper's" seem to need.

and where is that trail, and how did it get that name 😯

if you're feeling guilty you could go back and carry out some trail maintenance as things begin to dry out. or fill the puddle with gravel/sticks to prevent making the situation worse.

Its all down to route choice.

Rocky/sandy trails = Yey!
Chinly Churn Mud = Don't even go there.

I like your logic, but I doubt many would bother.

We are unique in stepping/riding out in this weather, as most horsey types would be worried about their steed going lame, and walkers stay indoors with tea and newspapers.

It just seems like we should all know a network of trails to go to when there is too much rain for our regular haunts. It would be a good way to get to know the forum ...

Am I being too liberal, or does this make sense?

Ride to the max but you need to do some payack @ some stage!

I try and avoid the muddier trails if possible when off piste as I know it will just ruin them for when it is drier however sometimes its just not viable ie if you are halfway along a long singletrack but then I will either just go though the deepest of the gloop puddles or ride on the dead bracken well off the line of the trail-or if worst comes to worst carry the bike.

responsible access mean not causing excessive erosion and can only be decided on an individual basis.

However its clear to me that many folk are unreasonable - but then even amongst reasonable people where to draw the line is not clear.

When I was in the US recently we hired some bikes. The guy at the shop commented that he wasn't sure that he should be hiring them out as he didn't want to encourage "bad trail practices", i.e. riding in wet winter conditions! It was only after another member of staff pointed out that all the trails were frozen that he relented.

As someone who spends a fair bit of free time tidying up in the wake of riders that use our local trails heavily in winter, part of me wishes that there was more awareness of the damage we can cause by riding all year round. I don't think matters are helped by magazines which have "mud plugging" articles, or place road riding on a par with going cottaging. 🙄

Looking at it realistically though, in the UK I don't think we have weather that's consistent enough to be able to swear off riding every time it rains. Adopting a US-style trail protection policy would made riding over the past two summers more or less impossible. Personally I'm happy to take a pragmatic point of view, and if we have trails that are relatively weather-resistant, or that people are happy to repair when they get knackered, I don't see any problem with moderate use in bad conditions. There are some riders who clearly trudge round the same shattered trails in all weathers and these people could do with broadening their horizons a bit.

We've had a bad case of trail distruction at my favourite trails unfortunatly...several mbt races have been held there just after heavy rain fall which has wrecked many of the trails 🙁 its gunna take some hot weather and a fair bit of work to restore the great flow it had! Real shame...

IRC it was this wet for the best part of 2007, 2008, 2009...

Yes, all the mud you return home with attached to your body/bike can be collected in a big pile and turned into dirt jumps in your back garden.

Depends on your view of whether it's actual damage , as opposed to just not billiard table smooth I suppose. In comparison to other users we don't really do much damage at all

nickc - sorry thats just head in the sand stuff.

Many of the pentlands trails have been badly damaged by bikes - and it clearly is from the tyre tracks and you should have seen the mess as strathpeffer.

Bikes do a lot of trail damage

We are unique in stepping/riding out in this weather

Nope, seen loads out. Horses, people, 4x4, trail bikes.

However its clear to me that many folk are unreasonable

Is it? How so? For example, how are you supposed to check trail conditions without riding?

Personally speaking there is little mtb traffic on the trails I use locally. One I'll be avoiding till it's dry, but that's mainly because it's already been ****ed over by horses. Another I may avoid sometimes, already ****ed by 4wd cock jockeys.

Main damage to trails round here (Surrey) seems to come from people who 'go wide' to miss the puddles !
Lines get increasingly wider and drainage gets progressively worse - if you're going to ride in the mud, ride in it, not round it 🙄

Pet hate of mine that Hilldodger - mainly from people who don't use mudguards

With TJ here; a lot of the Pentlands damage is caused by water following bike tracks and washing all the loose material away. While I can name areas where most of the damage is horse/4x4 related, the majority of locations are due to pushbikes.

When it's wet I take the change to go explore patches of woodland I've not been to before, or ride in quiet ones I've found before. I certainly avoid open hillsides when it's this wet.

Failing that, get your road bike out.

Bikes do a lot of trail damage

In comparison to what? IIRC is it not supposed to be roughly equal to walkers? And far, far less than horses and motorised users.

just ride the trails and don't worry about it. erosion adds character and often a good technical challenge to trails. i've never rode down a trail and thought "its too eroded, i can't ride it."

if you want pristine trails that are a piece of piss to ride then go to a trail centre.

Bikes Vs horses Vs redsox, still not sure myself but must say I have often been unpleasantly surprised just how deep a rut a trailraker leaves through soft ground.
Horses, well without horses I guess a lot of access would've been lost in the 'pre-mtb days' and they were here first 😉
Walkers, I find they tend to be a bit more 'fair weather' than cyclists so maybe in the case of muddy trail damage they don't do much ???

so what about creating a network via the forum, and locating trail areas least affected by wet weather, and organising group rides across the country.

This would seem like a good idea?

It would mean people would have to let others know about their local routes, and risk invasion, but its a small price....

Mighty work Andy, but maybe the 'wet rideable' trails only hold up because they are used less ?
Personally I'm pounding the fireroads and farm paths under the delusion of 'winter training' and saving the wooded delights for the glorious summer we're due.......

just ride the trails and don't worry about it. erosion adds character and often a good technical challenge to trails. i've never rode down a trail and thought "its too eroded, i can't ride it."

if you want pristine trails that are a piece of piss to ride then go to a trail centre.

IMO in most cases erosion makes for a less technical, less enjoyable trail. Features are flattened by the water, and lines widened by the above mentioned puddle avoidance.

probably the worst idea in the history of the internet.

the best way to ruin any riding area is to publicise it - even dirt jump teenagers know that.

hilldodger, you have a point, but where the geology makes it OK, maybe there can be hope?

Bill Oddie wrote, "just ride the trails and don't worry about it. erosion adds character and often a good technical challenge to trails. i've never rode down a trail and thought "its too eroded, i can't ride it."

Depends, there's erosion and then there's singletrack that turns into swamps. Some trails really do benefit from wear and tear, I can think of a few but I reckon more are left worse for it.

Couple of people mentioned the pentlands, and that's a great example, there's some lovely wooded singletrack near my house which is currently a swamp, and which people still ride through even though there's a landrover trail alternative 10 feet away, and even though it's no fun at all when it's muddy. But the damage done in the next month will take half a year to recover- the mud will last longer, and the trail will be left wide enough to drive a car along in places. If I could put up "trail closed" signs in September and take them down in March, it'd be far better to ride for the remaining 6 months.

But, it depends where you are, not everyone has the luxury of avoiding vulnerable trails.

but most of us drive

If we do nothing, nothing will change. Its desperate in the South, as the mud is awful at the moment. Surely there have to be places/rides out there impervious to this weather, without reverting to really skinny tyres.

Imagine if it was possible to change the consensus to thinking erosion sucks. Seasonal migrations to other areas.

bill oddie - Member

just ride the trails and don't worry about it. erosion adds character and often a good technical challenge to trails. i've never rode down a trail and thought "its too eroded, i can't ride it."

And once they are eroded down to bedrock and the council have to repair them you will complain of them being sanitised

Remember others use the trails as well. What about the ramblers and horse riders? Oh - and I have seen trails too eroded to ride. The amount of erosion on the trails really upsets me.

You are a classic example of the sort of unreasonable people I referred to above

mud is a good riding challenge in itself though, its useful to know how to ride trails that are dead slippy and blown out.

just look at the number of people you see walking the more enjoyable sections when you go to an endurance event. its obvious these people recoil from riding just cos its a bit wet and mucky.

it's the same as when you hear people complaining about braking bumps on DH tracks. just GOI and enjoy riding your bike while you've got your health!

[i]hilldodger, you have a point, but where the geology makes it OK, maybe there can be hope?[/i]

Sure, all my local trails are wooded - none stand up particularly heavy wet weather pounding, I'm sure other localities are more resilient...

Bill, you have a point, but what if there was an area with no guilt etc.

TJ, I agree with you, which is why I'm trying to think of an alternative...

[i]Remember others use the trails as well. What about the ramblers and horse riders?[/i]

Exactly !
Not to mention the land owners/managers who permit access often against a good degree of pressure from locals.

Churned up 'cheeky trails' do nothing to make our sharing of the countryside more harmonious....

anyone out there got an answer to this conundrum?

Nowt worse than nice smooth sanitised tracks. The FC have nicely screwed stuff here in the FoD by gravelling things. What is wrong with mud holes?

some sodden trails hold up beter than others, was riding last night and of all the trails we rode i know all of them will be ok come summer - they always are. we are lucky in that they are wet now but drain well.

I can think of placs that don't hold up so well - but they tend to be really thick gloopy mud anyway so best avoided anyway.

the problem with knowing this is it needs local knowledge and to ride through the wet winter to test the theory a bit.

[i]anyone out there got an answer to this conundrum? [/i]

....feel the power of the darkside 😕

There's a beautiful downhill singletrack on Exmoor that for most of it's lenght is a 12" wide ribbon, during the winter it gets used extensively by the pony trekking/ hunt brigade who churn it up and every year I'm amazed how it heals itself back to smooth and flowy.

the turbo is getting a bit of use at the moment, but it saps the fun out of cycling.

What about setting up winter welsh meets for the south, Lakeland = Whinlatter

& staines further North, and set dates for all, and make them regular meets so STW riders can float around and know they'll come across like minded riders, and not be dependant upon the usual crew all being available for a road trip on short notice.

Just an idea

mattsccm - Member

Nowt worse than nice smooth sanitised tracks. The FC have nicely screwed stuff here in the FoD by gravelling things. What is wrong with mud holes?

And why were they sanitised? (you mean repaired) more than likely because they had become eroded.

One persons gnarly tech trail is another's eroded mess.

On the South Downs I reckon horses do more damage than bikes but neither can get close to what tractors do to some of the bridleways.

I stopped publishing my trail map of the Pentlands because not enough folk were being responsible about riding certain trails.

I can see where you're coming from Andy. See from your profile that you're a Southerner (nice part of the country too). What others fail to appreciate is the sheer number of folk (that use the trails) in the South.

You may have seen my comments re Swinley Forest. Victim of its own success really so that's why I suggested that it needs time to recover.

I don't have an answer, perhaps we just really need more access, ie footpaths being changed to bridleway status.

My volunteering to Hampshire County Council's Access Forum was ignored. It's this type of thing that will make a difference. We all need to get involved.

Some intelligent remarks here. My 2 penth:

Mendip suffers as bad as anywhere with drainage problems, erosion and consequently muddy trails. When it rains here, all the dirt trails get a bit sticky/slippy. When these dry out, they are no worse for wear. But there are particular soft spots that that do not drain and form swamps, puddles and pots. People go around and the swamp and ruts grow.

Such lovely heath and forest so close to Bristol and Bath makes it very popular for walking, bikes and horses. The authorities here need to acknowledge that its popularity is impacting it quality and get on with their planned programme of trail drainage and hardening where it is needed.

But the major culprits are farm and foresty vehicals and joy-riding 4x4ers!. IMO, ride with a bit of care and don't have a massive guilt trip.

TandemJeremy - Member
...and you should have seen the mess as strathpeffer...

...which will be sorted by the local trail fairies in short order. 🙂

good stuff epicyclo - and the trails will have chance to recover.

I intended no criticism of the event or organisers - its just illustrative of how bikes can damage trails which some folk seem to deny can happen

Its a self solving problem for me. This time of year, I lack the requisit range to get to the "good stuff" so I just knock around the bridleways closer to base. There is a set of steep roll ins along the way, but they scare the bejesus out of me in the summer when its nice and grippy, so wouldn't even dare to ride it in the wet!

I always think it's at least partly ignorance rather than thoughtlessness, lots of people genuinely don't see bikes as causes of damage, and others just haven't really thought about it, but might ride more responsibly if they did or if they were more conscious of the effect. I've wondered if little polite signs at trailheads might help, just saying "From one rider to another, don't ride this when it's wet or it'll get trashed" or something.

I know there are people who just don't care, or who will refuse to believe they're doing harm, but not everyone's like this. When I was getting back into riding, I rode stuff I shouldn't have not because I just didn't really know it was wrong to do it.

Basically it comes down to a bit of common sense. When the trails are wet don't ride like a moto-x hero, get off and walk where appropriate. No heavy braking - especially on downhills, and ditch the nobbly tyres - but don't spin up.

There's definitely a case for personal responsibility; as Northwind says, many new / less experienced riders don't appreciate the effects their ridng around puddles / heavy braking etc. can have on the less resilient trails - as I didn't until this winter. I quite like the idea of putting signs up warning of the effects, but suspect 95% of the time they'd be ignored.
I've nothing against heading to GTress or Inners as more all-weather trails when the Pentlands are vulnerable, but then I have the facilities to do that.

IRC it was this wet for the best part of 2007, 2008, 2009...

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wasnt-summer-awesome-this-year-few-photos-from-mine-how-was-yours ]How soon we forget...[/url]

I ride wet muddy trails a couple of hours a week, it's either that or don't ride. I do my best to ride through puddles (and over bars sometimes) and do the odd bit of trail repair - I really do think the MX rider that tears around LW does 100times more damage than any mountain bike....horses are just as bad.

Anyway my solution - get an all weather rock armoured trail centre built in the south. I'd heard Farley Mount was being looked at to be a trail centre. Sheer number of riders in the south, and the lack of decent winterised trails should mean it turns a tidy profit. I for one would be happy to pay a fiver to park my car to go for a decent ride within 1hr from home.

Some muddy trails are fine - some are not - in my opinion. It basically depends on a load of factors but comes down to ( again my opinion) factors such as is another trail available for people who don't like the mud. Is there enough slope so that rain will wash the soil off, how many folk use the trail. Is it just bikes that are causing the mud or tractors as well?

One thing I find very interesting is that when I have discussed this with folk who have a similar outlook to me we sometimes come to very different conclusions.

all we can do is try to be aware of the damage we can cause and to attempt to minimise this and be responsible.

Partly this stems from riding in Scotland where there are no absolute rights to any trail but instead access must be "reasoable" and this is the culture I have learnt about the mountains in.

The antics of some would never be reasonable in my opinion and shouild be challenged.

When stuff's like it is at the moment, I feel so bad about riding and erosion that I often leave the bike at home and go off-roading in my 4x4 instead. I wish more riders were as responsible, many of you seem to have no idea of the amount of trail damage you're causing. I often have to detour round puddles and ruts which are clearly the result of excessive mountain bike use in inappropriate conditions.

It's just a shame that there's no mountain biking eqivalent of the Scottish Avalanche Information Service with a detailed trail conditions forecast for major riding areas together with an erosion grading system. That way, if, for example, the Peak were graded 'High' for erosion risk, I could either cancel my ride or choose to go to another, less vulnerable area and create more uniform wear across the country.

It's such a simple and easy to implement idea that I can't believe it hasn't been done yet. I'm sure we could easily organise something amongst ourselves, call it - TCF, 'Trail Conditions Forecast' - get sponsorship from one of the more responsible bike brands and at a stroke, we could more or less eliminate trail erosion in the same way that the SAIS has pretty much elimated avalanches by naming and shaming.

I know, some of you, by the way, will pour scorn on my suggestion for a Trail Conditions Forecast, but if you need convincing, check out the avalanche incidence in Scotland. For a vast part of the year there are no avalanches at all, which shows just how effective that service has been.