So today, I tried Flats for the first time ... 😬

Flats to the pub.

It's a big effort to change. I switched 4 years ago after 20 years riding only clips, and treated it a bit like giving up smoking - so flats for all riding.

When I first went back to flats from clipless, I tried to bunny hop and jumped off the pedals and impaled myself on my stem. 😖

Anything that involves more skill than pedalling I use flats these days. So technical descents, jumping, steep stuff. The reason that I like them is that they give me immediate feedback in the same way that a hardtail does. ie if my foot position is wrong I bounce off the pedals rather than go over the bars.

Firstly, you are probably putting your foot on the same place on the flat pedal you do when riding SPD - try moving your foot forward a bit so the axle is across the sole on instep of your foot rather than nearer the balls of your toe like where your cleat is.

Secondly, on a skills day with Jedi, he had me sort my shin bashing issue in about 10 seconds by tipping my brake levers up a little! With the fingers up a little your wrists are pressed down a bit more so on little landings your wrists 'break' and palms go down into the bike weighting your feet rather than your wrists rotation over the front of the bars followed by your body and unweighting your feet. Weighted feets don't fall off pedals.

Lastly - flats make you realise how crap/lazy your technique has got and how much you 'lift' the bike up with your feet rather than preloading and timing little jumps and bumps.

Firstly, you are probably putting your foot on the same place on the flat pedal you do when riding SPD – try moving your foot forward a bit so the axle is across the sole on instep of your foot rather than nearer the balls of your toe like where your cleat is.

I was going to say this too. Easier to put my heels down and “lock” myself to the bike.

I tend to switch as the mood takes me. At times I've ridden only clipped in for years.

Then I've spent time clipped in on the FS and flats for the HT to keep it playful.

When I got the big ebike I was convinced I needed to be clipped in to stay attached to such a big heavy lump. I found the torque when climbing techy sections (especially wet roots) often caused the back wheel to spin out and I'd be on the deck clipped in before I knew it - so I've switched back to flats and will definitely stick to them for that bike (maybe just swapping them out for somewhere like BPW). Also don't need the pedalling efficiency (albeit some say the pedalling efficiency associated with clips isn't really a thing).

When I built the Big Al up, I stuck with my thinking of flats for the HT - but it begs to be ridden hard and I've found that I feel way more confident on that clipped in. Only time I'd consider swapping them back now is maybe if I know we are going somewhere and sessioning steeps for the majority of a ride

IMO, all pedals are absolutely fine for pretty much anything. Maybe not best. but fine. But for pretty much any use, you'll feel less good on whatever pedal you're less familiar with, so don't jump to a conclusion too fast, you've got to actually get decent at it and that can take a while. Just because you do it without thinking doesn't mean it's not a skill after all. I'd definitely stick with easier riding initially, and yep be especially wary of jumps when going from spds to flats as the whole "jump with the bike" skillset can be rusty.

Also, most people who only use one pedal type would benefit from swapping to the other for a bit and getting good at that too. Both pedal types teach you things and find different holes in your skills. It's not that you can't get as good on one pedal type, it's just, you probably won't.

I just put SPDs back on my bike today after trying flats for a couple of months. I just don’t like them or see any gains. Each to their own but flats are not for me.

Pretty much the only time I ride on flats now is on my road/commuter bike. Anything slightly rough I'll stick to clips.

Going back to flats makes me slightly nervous nowadays must admit.. i definitely have picked up lazy habits in 18 months

So, when should I ride flats/clips?

Until you're confident with flats, only ride with flats.

I stayed with flats and my SPDs are rusty now.

I did the same, but once I was confident with flats I realised I still preferred SPDs so went back to them.

They are definitely easier for coaching though, so with that about to start up again I might swap back.

When you ride with flats, you need to compress into them before a jump, and allow the bike to come up with you. You'll be used to just lifting the bike with your feet, this will take a while to unlearn/relearn.

Also riding in the saddle all the time will be a thing of the past, probably why flats and hardtails go so well together.

Being able to swap between flats and clipless is ok now for me but took a while to get used to.

Even now, if I'm riding a certain bike with flats at the weekend, it's a good idea to have another ride in that setup a day or two before, "just to get my eye in"

Flats ? get shin pads. preferably ones similar to the hockey type.

The very very last thing you want is to get an infection in your shin from the crud thats out there..

Flats ? get shin pads. preferably ones similar to the hockey type.

Or follow the advice I was given and passed above and your shin gashing woes will be solved with a tweak with an allen key. You can move your lever back after you have got into the habit of putting your hands in the right place.

But bought some Nukeproof flat pedals in the CRC firesale, and some cheapish flats from Evans to try.

The key to flats for me - at at least semi-technical MTB, as opposed to riding to the pub, is decent shoes. They do make a difference, especially on longer rides, better (stickier) rubber, stiffer shoes, it all adds up. Slapping on some cheap pedals (that may not be the best for you), and some OK-ish, but not great shoes, isn't really giving you the best opportunity to see what you prefer, I appreciate that you have to start from somewhere, but if you're going to try it, give yourself a good starting place.

I'm guessing cheap shoes from Evans might be some nice five tens.
Give yourself time and build up to harder stuff. Get used to the flats on easier trails so you have time to think about what you're doing with your feet. Pumptracks are great for this as are nice rolling flow trails.

Slapping on some cheap pedals (that may not be the best for you), and some OK-ish, but not great shoes, isn’t really giving you the best opportunity to see what you prefer

They are Nukeroof Horizon pedals, and Fiveten trailcross shoes, so decent enough I believe?

Thanks everyone, helpful to have the advice and experiences. I'll persevere for a bit in trying to get used to them.

I've put them on my HT for now. Is that a good or bad idea? Or should I just put them on whatever bike I'm riding at the time?

Any tips/videos for jumping properly? As this is an area I have decided I want to improve on (especially gap jumps, even small ones freak me out!). Maybe I shouldn't be trying to progress with my jumping at the same time as trying flats?

Different techniques and foot position between the 2. I tend to flip flop between flats and spds depending on my mood. Generally my hardtail has spds on more  of the time and the fs bike flats. Although after running spds on the fs bike for BPW earlier in the year I’ve been preferring them as your foot is always in the same place but with flats you can start a section with the wrong foot position and it’s very hard to change it then (superstar nano Evos with 5-10 impacts).

When doing steep tech it is nice to know you can get a foot off quickly and then get it back on a pedal quickly again though - and flats do teach you better habits than spds.

Just seen your last posts - I’m not the best at jumping but when I had some coaching the technique I was taught was to be leaving the top of the takeoff ramp with straight arms - pushing the bike up (like a manual) rather than trying to pull the bike up with your arms. I find practising that more comfortable with flats on in case you need to bail off the back.

Rather than picking a camp and sticking to it, the best practice is to just flirt both ways as and when you feel like it.

I spent years going all in to one or the other camp but nowadays I regularly swap pedals and shoes around depending on seemingly not much, just what I fancy that day.

They are Nukeroof Horizon pedals, and Fiveten trailcross shoes, so decent enough I believe?

They do seem like decent choices 👍

Maybe I shouldn’t be trying to progress with my jumping at the same time as trying flats?

At my coaching session with Skillsloop I was told that if I wanted to get jumping right then I needed to be doing it on flats as clipless lead to poor technique which will make it harder to progress as I got better.

Agree with this.

Rather than picking a camp and sticking to it, the best practice is to just flirt both ways as and when you feel like it.

But not so much with this. Do your brain a favour and do just flats for a few weeks/months offroad so you are not constantly remembering what you are currently on in the millisecond before that little jump/bump.

I did the same recently.  After 6 rides I've admitted defeat and gone back to (Time) clips.  I just couldn't get used to my feet bouncing off unexpectedly when pedalling on rough stuff.  Going down was fine, maybe better than clips, but for everything else, no.

But, what kind riding suits which pedals?

You do you, but for me all my MTBing is on flats now - partly down to knee injury, but not sure I'd go back to clips even if I could.

MOST PEOPLE GIVE UP FAR TOO SOON! You need to stick with it for a few months if you're riding twice a week. Especially if you're old and have decades of inbuilt muscle memory.

In my head, I’m thinking ‘just riding along’ / XC type riding, to stick with SPDs. Also, rocky riding. But then, steeper off-piste stuff, and maybe jumpy stuff, use flats, so it’s easier to stick out a foot, dab, tripod, bail if need be?

I would use them for everything for a while then go back to clips only when efficiency is a priority AND you're confident on them.

First ride today. I didn’t make my shins bleeds, so will take that as a win. But, I didn’t like it for jumps (I’m sure I need to change my technigue), and a few times, found my foot lifting unexpectedly off the pedal, eg climbing a technical section.

So, when should I ride flats/clips?

What do I need to learn/unlearn/do differently?

Techy climbs got me a for a while, but it's now a pretty rare occurrence i lift my foot off. Imagine trying to scrap shit off your shoe on the pedal/pushing your foot back into the pedal on those crux moves you get on a techy climb.

Jumping/dropping, I found trying to keep the front heel down and the back heel up seemed to help.

FWIW - after riding flats for the best part of 30 years I can count the number of times I got whacked on the shin on one hand, most people who suffer than I suspect cheap out on pedals or shoes or tried flats in the pre-FiveTen era.

Bunny hopping - took me ages to get there and I'm still not jumping gates but I can hop drainage bars, logs and what not.

Videos - there are soooooo many on Youtube.

This is the one that really helped me...

The Cathro How to Bike series is well worth a (re)watch 

You need to stick with it for a few months

But why? What is the advantage? I went back to clipless at the weekend and it just felt right.

30years of riding spds and I've tried many times to quit.... But every time I'm back on the clipped in train within a week. It's an addiction I just can't quit even though I know.my rinding will progress further with a flat pedal.....

But why? What is the advantage? I went back to clipless at the weekend and it just felt right.

For me (aside from the lack of pain from my ruined knees) flats are more fun. YMMV

Th knee thing is interesting. I am fortunate to have never had knee issues. I did once read that the float you get from SPD's may, in some cases, give you more movement during a pedal stroke than what you get form decent flats and shoes. This article was suggesting that SPD's may, in some cases, be better for knees than flats.

Sounds like you need to practice bunny hopping tbh.  push down to unweight.

This article was suggesting that SPD’s may, in some cases, be better for knees than flats.

I'd agree with this (and said the same in the thread about flats for gravel riding). To be honest if you like riding with spds then maybe stick with it. The benefit I found going to flats (I came back to mtb after a 'career' of road based competition - hence 'convert') was it made me work harder on my technique which has made me a more competent rider - on flats or spd. I still ride spd or spd-sl on gravel and road bike mind. And Spd in snow and ice is rubbish in comparison to flats with issues of icing and balling up.

I'm the opposite - I struggle with SPDs when I'm mountain biking. I have them on my XC Hardtail which is generally fine and they're way better for hammering it on the climbs and flats, but I can feel quite uneasy on sustained descents. I think I like the feeling of my "whole foot" being supported by flat pedals, whereas on SPDs I sometimes feel like I am balancing the ball of my foot on a needle, even though my shoes are very stiff. Dropping the heel feels quite insecure, even though I know they're ratcheted up tight and will not come out.

Perhaps a flat enduro pedal with SPD clips would help with this, but I am stubborn in wanting to get better at the XC style!

I have never really had many crashes on my bikes, but the majority of them come from messing up techy climbs whilst clipped in haha.

Th knee thing is interesting. I am fortunate to have never had knee issues. I did once read that the float you get from SPD’s may, in some cases, give you more movement during a pedal stroke than what you get form decent flats and shoes. This article was suggesting that SPD’s may, in some cases, be better for knees than flats.

My knees are ****ed from other sports in my youth as much as anything. Basketball/Judo/American Football/Rugby/Jiu Jitsu are all knee killers and along with riding bikes that's how I spent my youth/twenties.

Riding along was fine, the issue I was having is that after a decent MTB ride where you unclip a few dozen times left my left knee sore as **** for days afterwards.  Swapping to flats has almost entirely removed pain from that knee. The only time it's sore now is after a very long day in the hills on rough terrain on foot with the hound.

Part of the reason I like flats is because whenever my feet are getting bounced off them it’s because my technique and bike position has been wrong.

Clipless are hiding the problem not fixing it.

But why? What is the advantage?

This is kind if where I'm at ...

I've gone into this "try flats" thing primarily for a quite specific use-case scenario. As my riding has progressed (from trail/XC), and I'm attempting a bit more off-piste/enduro-y/steep(er) stuff, most of which has been fine on SPDs (platforms with clips and pins), I'm getting to the point where certain 'crux' moves, I'm not attempting. So, a tight, rutted, steep turn, where you eg drop off a log/root/rock, into another rut with more rocks/roots, requiring either a very precise line, and you're having to balance you/the bike in 4D, navigate the turn etc, control your speed and braking ... in these cases, I'm thinking/hoping that flats will allow me the confidence to try the move, as I can get a foot out, tripod down or if it all goes wrong, tumble down the hill not being attached to the bike!

I'm open to there being other benefits too, and persevering with it, but that's where I see the 'hoped-for' advantage.

I’m thinking/hoping that flats will allow me the confidence to try the move,

This is the sort of reason people I know have moved to flats (also that they're better for the pub, and just cooler than spds. Fact.) And it's probably why I did a few years ago after many years clipped in. I think it's partly to do with bikes getting more capable and so you find in spite of yourself, you're trying more nadgery things. And that's as technical as I'm going to get.

I'd imagined it might give me more confidence with wheelies and manuals. Ha ha ha no!  But it does feel more fun somehow with (small) bunny hops, jumps, drops. These took some time to come but come they did. I should probably have had some coaching or done a bit more practicing to accelerate this, but from mainly just riding it all feels v natural.

I do know folks who having ridden flats for a few years and got that confidence, have gone back to spds. I might do the same on my hardtail for those longer XC type rides with some road in them. I do the occasional xbike ride and zero confusion clipping in, but then it's a v different kind of riding. The one or two times I tried clipped in on my Occam it just didn't really work. With one proper comedy slow motion topple. (Disclaimer: frankly shite rider here). 

I had a confused moment of thinking this was about bass playing! Rounds for me.

Never ridden clips on a mountain bike and only twice on a road bike. Used to ride with toe cages and straps (on a rigid Muddy Fox with the saddle at full height) in the first half of the '90s which seems completely mental now!

Never ridden clips on a mountain bike and only twice on a road bike. Used to ride with toe cages and straps (on a rigid Muddy Fox with the saddle at full height) in the first half of the ’90s which seems completely mental now!

Point of order. What you used to ride were toe clips. With or without straps. The road and track version had a cleat on the bottom of the shoe too with a groove across it that engaged with a ridge on the pedal. An SPD shoe and pedal is actually a 'clipless' system as it didn't require a toe clips. Even though we often talk about being clipped in. I know, messes with your head a bit.

I ride either depending on the ride. Yes you need to re-learn jumping, the bike should push up into you in the air whereas SPD's sort of let you float together with the bike following you regardless.

Personally I find that SPD's don't suit me on modern trail bikes. Somewhere in the long reach, short stem, slack HA I lose all the weight on the front wheel and it just feels sketchy.  For everything from XC upwards though I clip in.  I think partially though my riding style's diverged as well though.  I tend to push the bike right down and lean forwards into corners, which means my foot's naturally coming of the inside pedal which SPD's limit. Best way I could visualize it is the grip[s and pedals are 4 corners of a square, and in a corner I want to push my COG all the way to the front/outside, which means the inside back foot comes up.  Also handy because it forces that foot forwards, so it's dabbing level with the front wheel, not tripoding like a lost roadie in a CX race.

Clips for the trails

Flats for the Parks

But why? What is the advantage?

it's just personal preference, there's no right or wrong answer to this one.

the technique I was taught was to be leaving the top of the takeoff ramp with straight arms – pushing the bike up (like a manual) rather than trying to pull the bike up with your arms.

That sounds like an awfully risky way of jumping to me. Straight arms means your weight will be back, and I cannot help thinking that is the last place you want your weight to be while getting airborne.

When I was taught to jump it was weight central on the takeoff ramp and compress down a bit to preload - then pop upwards as you leave the lip applying very gentle backwards pressure on the bars. No pulling up with the arms, the energy of the jump coming from my legs.

"Point of order. What you used to ride were toe clips. With or without straps. The road and track version had a cleat on the bottom of the shoe too with a groove across it that engaged with a ridge on the pedal. An SPD shoe and pedal is actually a ‘clipless’ system as it didn’t require a toe clips. Even though we often talk about being clipped in. I know, messes with your head a bit."

I did actually know this but I just think it's so silly that in 2024 we're still calling pedals you clip into "clipless"! I certainly haven't seen anyone riding clips and strap on an MTB this century and the original Look "clipless" pedals were invented 40 years ago, and SPDs in 1990. So I'm starting a movement to call clipless pedals "clips".

Anyway, I really like riding flats, I've been on them off-road since I returned to MTBing in 2009. I imagine it takes quite a long time to get used to not being clipped in, (cliplessed in?!!). I remember when I started riding again in 2009 everyone else was on clips of some sort and also not using dropper posts, but I stuck with flats and got a dropper pretty soon (Gravity Dropper, 100mm of coil spring action!).

Clips seem to have the edge in competition (apart from freeride/slopestyle) but most people I ride with nowadays are on flats, with some riding clips for more XC stuff. I don't know anyone who switches to clips for DH stuff (uplift days), even though almost all the pros DHers are on them but I don't know anyone who races DH.

Greno steel city yesterday morning for the jumps  - flats

Wharny yesterday afternoon for the jank - clips

Persevere....

One advantage of clips I've not heard yet is the ability to hop the back end of the bike sideways without lifting the front

With flats, to do that you've either got to stoppie or do a proper hop. Which may not be possible, and/or it is slower

One advantage of clips I’ve not heard yet is the ability to hop the back end of the bike sideways without lifting the front

No, you can do that with flats?

you can do it without lifting the front wheel but it does require some additional movement/weight shift - if you are doing something technical enough to warrant a rear wheel hop, this may not be easy to do.

with clips you can just bend at the knees for a little hop/rear wheel line correction.

I'm a big flats fan but I do see this as a clip advantage. Of course anything needing this sort of move, is the sort of ride I'd hate to be clipped in for...

I moved to flats about 18months ago after 20 years on spds

its taken me a while but Im very happy now, even for longer xc rides, when I thought Id be back on spds, back wheel lifts, jumping and bunny hopping now as good as I was on spds, just takes practice

Big win for me has been comfort on long rides and confidence on very steep techy stuff

Ive been riding a hardtail a lot more recently and thats taken a bit of getting used, to stop getting my foot bounced off my foot through rough  stuff, requires a bit more heels down technique

For me if I know I’m doing a technical rocky steep uphill, then it’s flats…..

After one incredibly painful episode of falling backwards on a steep rocky climb while unable to unclip in time…..that was a painful lesson!

hardtailonly
Full Member

Maybe I shouldn’t be trying to progress with my jumping at the same time as trying flats?

So the question is, what are your goals? Do you actually want to progress and develop good skills? Or do you want to get down the trail by whatever means? The difference is basically that you can use SPDs to jump with poor technique and still get the job done, while if you do the same with flats you just crash.

Where that becomes more important is if you want to progress further- eventually if you want to jump further, or better, or use techniques like prejumping or doing direciton changes etc, you need to get good, you can't just use the hardware to do the job. That has tons of transferrable benefits into other areas too. And at that point, a lot of people find themselves pretty stuck because they're not just learning new stuff, they're needing to unlearn old stuff, the tricks that got them so far can hold them back and just make it really hard to progress.

franksinatra
Full Member

<quoting someone else> You need to stick with it for a few months

But why? What is the advantage? I went back to clipless at the weekend and it just felt right.

Because you can't make an educated decision unless you're equally skilled and equally comfortable and equally familiar with both types, basically. it's a bit like what I said just here ^^^ the question is whether that matters. Is stopping using what you're already skilled and comfortable and familiar with worth it to experiment? Will you put in the effort, will you get over the big advantage that your current pedals have and ever actually make that fair decision? And in the end, will it even be different? That's the clincher, you have to put in time and effort and suffer some worse rides, and in the end you might just learn "ok I actually do prefer this".

But, I would add that if riding on flats feels really wrong, and riding on SPDs feels really right, that's probably not just familiarity, you probably have some counterproductive stuff from the SPDs that makes it harder to ride on flats than it should be. Lots of people don't move well with the bike, they fight the suspension and the tyres and they basically only stay together because they're bolted together. And being bolted together is really useful, but it's unhelpful to depend on it. You want to be cooperating with the bike and if you're doing that, you don't need to be bolted on. People who can switch easily between the two are generally better riders.

(myself, I like to know. And I absolutely do believe that both pedals tend to teach us things.

I’m very fussy about my saddle adjustment and I need to move my saddle forward and down a bit when switching to flats.
Somehow this small adjustment also helps with  keeping my feet properly over pedal axles.