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Simple answer... just have the boosted adverts that are older than 24hrs down the side of the page so they still have the benefit of extra visibility, but aren't filling up the classifieds page. That would please both parties - the browsers and the searchers.
Simple answer… just have the boosted adverts that are older than 24hrs down the side of the page so they still have the benefit of extra visibility, but aren’t filling up the classifieds page. That would please both parties – the browsers and the searchers.
There isn't a bit down the side on mobile
Yeah. Firstly, as Simon says, that wouldn't work on mobile. Secondly, it'd make it easier for people like me to ignore them on desktop as well. Thirdly, you have to question the value of boosted ads for selling to Searching Steve: simply raising the visual prominence of an ad* is only any use if there are a lot of ads and you want to stand out, so if a search narrows down the list to just a handful then there's little or no value in boosting. Really, the majority of the value in visual prominence is in selling to Browsing Bob, but Bob's the exact person who's getting a worse experience out of the current boost implementation.
* the other way to boost ads is not one of visual prominence in a sea of other ads, but to plant it into more views; eg dropping one into an unrelated search as a "hey, while you're here, how about this?" suggestion, or by dropping it into other pages on the site, eg one on a forum page. This provides a genuine boost whilst advertising the fact that boosted ads offer real benefit like that, making the whole thing more monetizable, and if done with care it needn't piss anyone off by ruining their experience.
For 9 quid I'd want my ad to appear occasionally in a sidebar elsewhere on the forum.
I love how helpful Bez is being, even when he knows that he's not being listened to.
There have been countless helpful suggestions over the past year. However, my 33 years in IT taught me that everyone thinks their requirements are special and that the processes and systems developed elsewhere simply cannot be used for them. This forum is a classic "fingers in the ears" example. Either the system owner learns to listen to expertise or they employ yes-men who will do what's asked for regardless of the consequences.
I have to wonder whether it would work better to intersperse the boosted ads—semi-randomly—with the main list, but make them visually prominent rather than barely distinguishable
Kind of like a 'Featured Property' on Right Move or whatever the equivalent is on Autotrader, which makes sense to me.
Someone way earlier up the thread said they'd never encountered this level of tension between owners and users on a forum before. I have from somewhere in the middle of the sandwich, with a forum which eventually kind of killed itself by implementing all sorts of clever features that the actual users didn't want in a way which didn't work for them or anyone else. It's a delicate balance and easy to break.
I think there's a problem that people who run web sites inevitably don't use them in the same way that a user does. I was working, a few years back, for a top five UK print/digital publisher and as far as I could work out, across the company there was a single usability expert, who was far and way the most capable person I ever spoke to there about the user experience. Six weeks later he'd been sidelined.
I'm not saying that this is what's happened or is happening with ST in a critical way, but running a site and being familiar with it from the other side of the metaphorical digital glass isn't the same as using it as a visitor, customer or whatever you want to call it. But also, different people use sites in different ways. Focus groups would be one way of digging into it.
Anyway, my take would be that maybe you give people options for sorting ads - newly listed first, by category, randomised, oldest listed etc, so if you want a random browsing experience or a time related one, it's there and you include featured, paid-for ads interspersed with the rest of them.
And now someone will tell me that I can already do that...
Someone way earlier up the thread said they’d never encountered this level of tension between owners and users on a forum before.
Meanwhile, as a direct consequence of commenting on this very thread, over on the Singletrack Select Facebook group, a forum user is being told to Foxtrot Oscar by the owners. 😳
How about making boosted ads time limited but cheaper? i.e. you pay to have it boosted for 7 days, and can renew it after that.
Also make it clearer that they are paid ads and there's more below - a lot of people seem to be missing that and assuming the classifieds aren't being used.
How about making boosted ads time limited but cheaper? i.e. you pay to have it boosted for 7 days, and can renew it after that.
That makes sense to me. Or have a minimal one-off basic listing fee if you want to upload an ad for an item over a certain value - anything over £50 is a straight £1 say, then potentially increase the listing fee as prices rise so the cost of listing is relative to the value of the item. Right now you only get income for high value goods as otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you're flogging a jacket for £50, a fiver's pretty steep, no? If you're advertising a £10,000 car, it's pretty much nothing.
Anyway...
Singletrack Select Facebook group, a forum user is being told to Foxtrot Oscar by the owners. 😳
seen that and thought 🤡
Or have a minimal one-off basic listing fee if you want to upload an ad for an item over a certain value – anything over £50 is a straight £1 say
Pretty much exactly what came to my mind a few days ago, albeit with a smaller payment and lower threshold: essentially a micropayment-based sales portal with a free jumble sale mixed in to keep things lively and help pull more punters in. The problem is, though, that although small payments often generate a lot more revenue than larger ones when you have a large audience, you need a virtually friction-free payment mechanism in place for it to work.
I worked for a classifieds publisher (they were also Britains largest private magazine print co - 1 million copies a week)
They always limited the number of boosted ads to 3 per page of results. So you paid for a boosted ad and the frequency it appeared at was dependent on the number of pages delivered plus the number of boosted ads.
They were pushing out over a 30 million pages a month so people will put up with featured ads - you just have to be sensible about it.
Keep the comments coming. I'm making notes...
Some good points in here and I'll see what is possible and what isn't when I chat to the tech guys next.
Cheers
Couple of simple ones - Chrome/PC formatting no classified ads showing, but showing Advertising which is what being a P is meant to get rid of.
I'd recommend some training for your tech guys.
I think the new classifieds is OK. Going to take some getting used to but hey ho. Change is good when it works.
Some good points in here and I’ll see what is possible and what isn’t when I chat to the tech guys next....
Year? 😉
Some good points in here and I’ll see what is possible and what isn’t when I chat to the tech guys next.
We actually genuinely used to have a person whose job was essentially to act as a translator between the tech guys and the editorial and commercial teams. It was a nice idea in theory, but in practice just added an extra level of complexity and misunderstanding. It was like running something through google translate twice: once from English into Spanish say, then again from Spanish into Russian. The results were sometimes quite interesting.
"I’d recommend some training for your tech guys."
And you wonder why they're not falling over themselves to reply... 😛
Meanwhile, as a direct consequence of commenting on this very thread, over on the Singletrack Select Facebook group, a forum user is being told to Foxtrot Oscar by the owners.
Another one?
Is it me?
Hi Chipps, if you're looking for points to discuss, can the images please link through to the adverts rather than just the title. I'm forever clicking on the picture then wondering why it hasn't loaded.
Less specifically, I personally think the 1-week lifespan for non-boosted ads is too short, it's contributing to the place looking empty and as an occasional browser I don't tend to look in the classifieds weekly - though I appreciate that this has wider influences on the decision.
"I personally think the 1-week lifespan for non-boosted ads is too short,"
Hi, I've just checked, and all ads are on there for 14 days as standard. This was changed a week or so ago in response to user feedback.
I'm with you on the 'Clicking the picture' thing and it's on my list of improvements too...
However, I've just checked, and that works too. You can click the title or the photo (but not the background) and it goes to the ad.
And you wonder why they’re not falling over themselves to reply…
Assuming both points made in jest but.....
It's been so long since any engagement from the tech team that this has become a disconnect which is hard to get back from.
Keeping things simple making this thread a sticky and moderating it well would be a good start, a seperate reply/progress on issues/request for info on bugs thread locked to Mod/Dev only could help keep the coms clear.
There was a vague promise to update then general forum doesn't work very well regularly which lasted a few weeks at most.
In simple terms a quick one page Welcome to the New Feature would be a really good start, explain how it works, what the rules are, what the features are and why for instance you see loads of boosted ads before getting near other content. Would save the mods the job of repeating themselves over and over again - see the issues in the main forum posting pics, there is about a thread a week these days asking how to - somebody just write a decent instruction page!!!
There are still quite a lot of technical issues with both sections of the forum that people are waiting to see fixed, sometimes in the mistaken belief we are actually paying customers.It would be good to get an update on the big ones like messed up text entry, forum not knowing how many pages a thread has, a useful history of threads commented on - like the old one that was simple and brief, being able to see who the last poster was from the front page, go to last post from mobile.
As a technical update I finally found some ads via chrome, hidden in a side bar with crap formatting after the daily deals advert feature.
I saw the thing on Facebook too and I don't think it did either party any favours. It did however open my eyes to that nice friendly chap who appears on ST vids occasionally. Anyway......
Thanks for the reply Chipps, good to see the pictures linking now. Apologies for not checking before moaning, but it had been bugging me for a while, including quite recently.
14 days sounds a more sensible compromise. Thanks for the update.
I'll pass on your thanks. And I'll keep taking notes 🙂
Out of interest why do they need to fall off at all, 14 days or otherwise? The old classifieds (I know 🙄 ) with their massive history meant you could go back a see the stuff that wasn't selling or the gradual price drop of overpriced items. It also acted as feedback to give an idea of good and bad sellers. Much more useful as a buyer
Keep the comments coming. I’m making notes…
Notes on who to ban next ? 🤣🤷♂️👏
I don’t look at the classified section, not that I don’t need stuff, but to me it’s less important than fixing other bugs in the forum.
IME classifieds should be simple to read, not linked to any external advertising, paid for (sorry lads, but it’s not your forum and the owners need have an ROI and ongoing maintenance) limited to a small number of adverts per user so they don’t obliterate and clog the section, time limited so they don’t hog the limelight and disappear when users sell stuff but don’t update the classifieds, available on all platforms without bugs and UX issues.
I like pictures of stuff, I think that’s fair on both seller and potential purchaser..
So what is the time limit on paid ads? According to the classified the Mojo HD3 that’s grossly over priced has been for sale for 3 months. Some thought needs to be given to the use of paid ads and how they are displayed! The number of people actually paying to list is virtually non-existent so it just looks like no one is using the classifieds.
There are currently 10 live paid for ads of which only 2 have been placed in the last week. Generating around £20 a week in revenue. Is there really not a better way to get some kind of ROI? It’s worryong that something generating so little has the potential to damage so much!
You are posting as bruneep.
If you want to use a different account, please logout.
Had a look at how to post an ad I'm guessing that multiple accounts are ok now then?
When I click on seller name I really want to see their whole site posting history not just what ads they have have or sold. Are they classified user only<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> *cough trader* or are they regulars, this matters when parting with my cash </span>
<edit> and sort out the shite formatting tags
When I look at the whole site on the device I have where I am able to turn off the adblocker, I don't see actual ads, I just see a placeholder that says "advertisement" so in my case you are causing me unnecessary pain for 0 gain for your advertisers. On the device on which I cannot do anything about the adblocker I can't see ads, nor regular classifieds but I do see the boosted ones so you should probably be charging them more.
The one feature I've always wanted to see in a classified system is one where people can vote on whether the item is massively overpriced so that when I make a sensible offer they can see that everyone agrees tthe price is ridiculous, which saves the usual back and forth on how their bike is different from all the other exactly the same bikes and really is worth more.
"The one feature I’ve always wanted to see in a classified system is one where people can vote on whether the item is massively overpriced"
No one likes the smart alec who says 'Oh, but you can buy that for £20 less from this website'. I'd reckon that whatever price you want to set should be up to you and free from heckling. By all means have a quiet word, but don't be the guy in Sainsbury's pointing at how they can save money by going to Asda.
The Mojo ad has been paid to be boosted and re-boosted, which is why it's still there. And, yes, that earns us more money than some programmatic advertising (Welcome to the brave new digital world. Unfortunately, just having a popular website no longer pays for itself, which is why paywalls and subscription services have become vital to any media company trying to stick around.) Paid-for ads in the new Classifieds have earned us more money than the voluntary donation system did in the last five years. While I know that many people liked it the old way, very few of them ever clicked on the 'Donate to help with the cost of running the site' voluntary donation button.
No one likes the smart alec who says
True. I'm not suggesting it seriously but it would help buyer as much as seller. You are free to set your price, the market will set it's own. To suggest voting is heckling is being unnecessarily perjorative. If one or two people have a quiet word the seller thinks it is because they are trying to screw him out of the rightful value. If you get 50 or 60 people all suggesting it's priced too high you can act accordingly. Either ignore it or realise the people you believe are lowballing are actually offering you a reasonable price. If the person wants their price and is willing to pay to relist that's up to them. Feedback which is what I was suggesting, isn't "heckling"
As an aside, why are the mods in here "stealth". ? This is about the only site where the mids don't have an indicator next to their username
Why not just charge us a one off payment if you want to sell gear? For example £5 for a one year licence. Must be paid to stw by PayPal or similar so that there is an audit trail.
This would
1) Generate more money for you rather than boosted ads. You could make it for x amount of sales so traders have to pay more of they list x amount in a year.
2) Get rid of the boosted ads that we don't like
3) Make it safer for buyers as there is an audit trail rather than a random name in case something goes wrong.
4) stop counterfeit notes and passports
5) stop stolen goods being sold through stw
Just look how many different people have posted on this thread. Charge a small amount across a large number. I buy and sell on here as I feel part of a biking community. I try and help people out as I know they would help me. There are so many examples of this. This is not a faceless market like gumtree.
I also use stw to sell as ebay and PayPal is too expensive these days. I can't comment on others but if you got the price right, I'd use it. But considering pinkbike is free you would have to offer us something back in return. I. E. Buyer protection from the audit trail and a forum that works
Interesting I don’t ever remember a ‘donate’ button on the classifieds? Hell I have given stuff away, which I would of asked people to donate to the classified fund cause! That said as a subscriber I believed that the classified usage was part funded by my subscription....hence why I am now no longer going to renew (as others have also pointed out) my subscription was always to help fund a website as well as receive a great magazine. But if I had to pick between the two it would always be the website nowadays. Hence with all the site glitches and a move away from the good old classifieds I won’t be renewing. So given as the new classified system was to help earn revenue and get away from the ‘classified only user’ it’s now putting off paying multi channel users....go figure
Whilst I’m at it, is there still premier content? I used to enjoy the premier competitions...not seen them for a while?
Question, what would you need to charge per member (online) to make the issues go away with the website and revert back to the good old classified system? Why not charge everyone for access to the site? If there really is no value in ‘non paying members’ then make the pay up or ship out!
True. I’m not suggesting it seriously but it would help buyer as much as seller. You are free to set your price, the market will set it’s own.
Why not just leave it to the market then? It just sounds like adding an unnecessary layer of additional complexity. If people ask for too much, the item won't sell. You don't really need a Classified Price Police to underline that, do you? You could maybe have the option to rate sellers and buyers as per eBay, but again, it just seems like an added complication. I guess it all depends how far ST wants to go towards becoming some sort of MTB eBay.
Why not just charge us a one off payment if you want to sell gear? For example £5 for a one year licence. Must be paid to stw by PayPal or similar so that there is an audit trail.
Solid idea, even a 99p pass go fee to post your first ad and a minimum membership time would help get rid of the scammers and give people a bit of history
I'm probably in a small minority, but I'd pay for an ad that could only be seen by people who participate in the main forums
As an aside, why are the mods in here “stealth”. ? This is about the only site where the mids don’t have an indicator next to their username
A couple of the Mods (Cougar and Drac) did have Moderator in their tag rather than Subscriber or Member but that seemed to have got broken in the last major "upgrade" (about 1 year ago). The rest opted to stay hidden so as not to attract unwanted attention.
Why not charge everyone for access to the site? If there really is no value in ‘non paying members’ then make the pay up or ship out!
Because the other major income stream is advertising and that only earns if you have a large readership/click-through rate. In effect, ALL members (whether paying or not) have value.
Edit: of course, if enough folk subscribed, there would be a point where no advertising was required.
Edit: of course, if enough folk subscribed, there would be a point where no advertising was required.
and there are 2 ways to try and achieve it
That one probably isn't the best one, making a nice easy working forum that does the basics well might help
The rest opted to stay hidden so as not to attract unwanted attention.
That seems a little odd. Undercover mods? Makes it hard to know who to contact. Plus it means they can make posts with distinctly um-modlike language/content and if you don't know they are a mod, it seems a bit off.
If people ask for too much, the item won’t sell. You don’t really need a Classified Price Police to underline that, do you?
Who mentioned price police? It's feedback ffs and yes some people probably do need the help. Anyone who has bought/sold stuff online kniws that at least 25% of the people are utterly convinced of the value of their stuff but will still wonder why it's not selling.
While we're here…
Can someone fix the header navigation? The top level items have a height of 48px but the dropdown menu is positioned 50px from the top, leaving 2px between them. This means that when you hover over the top level item to show the menu, and then you move the pointer down towards it, nine times out of ten the menu disappears before you can click on it. Which is infuriating.
Subject to media queries, you can fix it (and gain a small Fitt's Law win into the bargain) as follows:
.navbar-nav > li > a { padding-top: 18px; padding-bottom: 12px; }
Anything that adds up to 30 will do in terms of fixing the bug, but anyone with a typographer's eye should be able to spot why I've suggested those specific numbers.
That seems a little odd. Undercover mods? Makes it hard to know who to contact.
It's one email.
Plus it means they can make posts with distinctly um-modlike language/content and if you don’t know they are a mod, it seems a bit off.
It also stops them being judged or criticised just for being a mod.
It’s one email
Aye, but to whom?
It also stops them being judged or critised just for being a mod
Aye, but if they are mods shouldn't they embody the ethis of the site at all times? It isn't that hard over time to figure out who is a mod and if they do or say something off key then it appears to be a case of do as I say not as I do. Then you wonder if they are using the lack of identifier as a shield from criticism for not living up to the ideals.
I mentioned that in the early days of the new classifieds. The ad cap is crazy and doesn’t work for smaller items in my view. Which moves away from what this site was great at ‘good karma’ transactions. So someone could post a wanted ad for an obsolete item and you would probably get some kind of response. I gave away loads of stuff which helped other people. Removing the ad cap for ‘P’ users made sense given as we already paid to use the site. But also stop the classified only users from spamming the place up.
Anyway nothing changed on that front and I used pink bike to clean out a load of kit. Ad numbers are capped there too but at a much more sensible number
Aye, but if they are mods shouldn’t they embody the ethis of the site at all times?
You forget, Mods are just regular posters who have been asked "Can you help out" That doesn't make them necessarily a better person, more politically correct or even answering any questions as part of the 'forum' .... Just normal guys... (Who also happen to put up with a lot of crap on here)
Pretty much that Weeksy.
It isn’t that hard over time to figure out who is a mod
So no need for them to be labled as mods.
cromolyolly wrote
It’s one email
Aye, but to whom?
moderator@singletrackworld.com I think
and that reminds me, I've made the point before that as a professional coder I would have been mortified to put out code with bugs like this forum, the fact that bugs like the formatting crap still hasn't been fixed tells me the management is lacking
I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears but just to add my name to the long list of people who won't be disabling their ad blockers just for the sake of the new classifieds, always enjoyed a browse of the old ones, but I can certainly take or leave the new ones.
Would be interesting to know the traffic in the week of say 2 months ago, versus the last week on the new one.
I browsed the old classifieds regularly, sometimes several times a day. I've not visited the new one since the old classifieds was taken down ...
I doubt you're alone.... i visited once.... i used to browse (and purchase and sell) regularly on the old one.
Well, the links to the old Classifieds at the top of each thread have now gone so that should be less confusing for some folk. (thread / post counts links still appearing though.)
Just visited the wonderful new classifieds. Managed to get down past the Octavia and the Mojo, just about, before...
'Congratulations...you have won....!' fills my screen. Thought shitty popups and hijacks were a mobile-only feature?
PC/chrome/Latest build, if anyone is interested.
This is why people seem to be fond of adblockers.
Why not just charge us a one off payment if you want to sell gear? For example £5 for a one year licence. Must be paid to stw by PayPal or similar so that there is an audit trail.
A musical instrument forum of which I am a member (fnar!) recently implemented something similar. Items up to a set £ limit were free, and then over that limit were either £7 ea or for £20 you paid for a year's access and free ads.
Seems to work pretty well.
BTW classified ads still not showing when I try and browse here on Chrome.
You forget, Mods are just regular posters
I didnt. I am in intimately acquainted with what mods do and what they put up with. Like referees they have to ( publicly)stay above the fray.
So no need for them to be labeled as mods
Depends. Might make the site more friendly to newcomers and inspire confidence in occasional posters. Which is the other way to grow the revenues necessary to keep the site afloat.
Wonders if cromolyolly is a new login for someone who has suffered the wrath of the STW mod squad.
New classifieds are fine for me using an iPhone. Easy to navigate and easy to list. Not a fan of the sticky ads though. Nobody is buying your Mojo or your Santa Cruz.
Who mentioned price police? It’s feedback ffs and yes some people probably do need the help. Anyone who has bought/sold stuff online kniws that at least 25% of the people are utterly convinced of the value of their stuff but will still wonder why it’s not selling.
What would happen if those people didn't drop their asking price?
Just to add my name to the list of users who have deserted the classifieds. I’m not flouncing, it’s just that the new format doesn’t give me what I got from the old one - window shopping with the (low-level) background thrill of a possible bargain or impulse buy.
i might search the new one next time I’m after something specific. But I probably won’t.
I visited the new classifieds and I died to death.
I visited the new classifieds and I died to death
I thought I was okay after looking and posting an advert on there. Turns out I was wrong though. I’ve contracted the bad cat aids and found several dead baby robins on the patio. I didn’t even have a patio before browsing on there.
The new classifieds are the worst and have literally ruined my life.
Over the years, I have used the old classifieds on here to buy and sell probably more than £10k's worth of bikes and gear - I found it a great place to buy and sell stuff - but just to add my voice to those of others (again), I will not be using the new system - it's rubbish compared to the old (I even paid for a sticky ad and still wan't happy with that)....like others have said, I imagine if you look at traffic on here it will have dipped significantly since the change - the old classifieds was one of the main reasons (alongside Bike Forum) that kept bringing people back
Clearly, the change is a mistake.....
So all will be forgiven when you reinstate the old Classifieds!
In the event that any of the developers are reading this thread can I suggest that a link to the new classifieds needs to be available/visible the way the old one was - at the top of each thread. That encourages "casual" visits which the separate menu doesn't
Any update from Stw when the new classified site will be fixed from ad blockers? I've got some stuff to list. I'd tell you what I have but I'm scared of the stealth, stealth ad police.
Actually, having looked at the classifieds on desktop today they seem to work quite well. A list that's quick to scroll down, pictures at sensible sizes and the boosted ads remain in the unobtrusively in the sidebar once you've scrolled past them . I can see the value of boosting and think it does represent an upgrade on the old system .
I stil liked the old "have a rummage jumble sale' of the old system, but now understand much better what the changes are achieving.
Maybe it's more of an issue that it doesn't really work on mobile cos the pictures are too big?
One thing I have noticed is how few wanted ads there are in the new forum area. I often browsed the wtd section as it was simple to see if someone was looking for that odd or end that may be lurking in my parts box rather than list everything in for sale
Only 10 wtd ads in a week. it was always a bit quieter than the other forum pages but 10 in a week! That's broken.
What would happen if those people didn’t drop their asking price?
depends if you ask an existentialist or psychic. If a price falls in the classifieds and no one is there to hear it?
who has suffered the wrath of the STW mod squad
How would you know? They are stealthy, ninja-like, moving in the shadows.
Just had a browse of the new classifieds to see what all the hot air was about ... Works ok for me. Half a page of priority ads then down to the other stuff. Easy to use. No horrid ads (as a logged in, STW subscriber), no pop ups. Using a Moto G6 android phone. Allowed me to send a message about some wheels, let me go back to the place in the listings where I'd left it. Quite an ok experience.
depends if you ask an existentialist or psychic. If a price falls in the classifieds and no one is there to hear it?
There's audio?
Works ok for me.
One of the many points is it doesn't actually display ads for quite a number of users.
Hopefully chips has taken his list to the team.and is typing his response right now.... As with previous management engagement posts it's what follows that is most important.
There’s audio?
If you are not hearing the voices, maybe try turning off your adblocker? Seems to be the solution to all problems.
Would these be the same evil adblockers that prevent me being directed to...
‘Link removed for obvious reasons'
...everytime I come on this site?
If so, no thanks