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Giro d'Italia - Stage 14 winner Santambrogio fails EPO test
Well, obviously not....
They'll always be cheats....
The cleaner it is, the greater advantage comes to one who risks drug use. Which has to mean penulties should be made more severe.
There'll always be duplicate threads 😉
There's some new EPO test being used which may explain the current round of positives.
This was slightly in reference to the other thread about Froomes improvements from no-where to podium and the doubts and the "cycling has cleaned up it's act"....
Then i go to check some of the Criterium results and bang.... another one....
The worst part is... it's killing the enjoyment of watching the events to find out 6 weeks later that the bloke you were sitting there thinking "Wow... that's impressive fella..." was only impressive because of EPO...
So the next event begins and someone makes an attack it sort of kills the enjoyment as you're thinking "yeah right".
The UCI need a plan... and soon.
The UCI need a plan... and soon.
New president might help...
If someone came to me now and told me I'd lose my job - a job I'd worked my balls off all my life to achieve - and that I'd never get another job, unless I took EPO... I'd take EPO.
It's naive to think that they can stamp it out.
Anywho, EPO isn't a 'bad drug', it [i]improves[/i] the body and makes it more efficient.
I don't see these guys as villains, they're just ordinary, vulnerable human beings doing what they need to do to protect their livelihoods.
I agree to an extent with what shibb says.
The Secret vRace by Tyler Hamilton gives a pretty good insight into the mindset and pressures.
At least cycling is facing up to the problem, really hope the Fuentes blood bags are saved and we find out what sports don't actually care about drug cheats.
Until they bring in lifebans for riders, team directors involved then it will carry on forever.
So why have they not brought in lifebans for those involved? because lots of people are involved, and the sport isn't ready for that.
Its getting there, as soon as we lose some of the tainted individuals from the sport and that idiot McQuaid is disposed, it'll get a whole lot better.
but then again, 'you don't ride the Tour on mineral water alone', and if thats what we want to see, maybe we need a field full of fueled up riders.
I don't see these guys as villains, they're just ordinary, vulnerable human beings doing what they need to do to protect their livelihoods.
So how do you see the guys that choose not to dope? 🙄
Anywho, EPO isn't a 'bad drug', it improves the body and makes it more efficient.
Err I hope you're trolling, if not maybe have a think about many of the young fit athletes that died in their sleep.
As for Santambrogio, I hope it was just being led astray by Di Luca rather than it being a Vini-Fantini team issue. Either it sucks but hey he got caught at least.
They couldn't go for life bans evens if they wanted to. Cycling is an olympic sport and the UCI is signed up to the wada code.
The Secret vRace by Tyler Hamilton gives a pretty good insight into the mindset and pressures.
Agreed, read this book last week, brilliant read and a great insight.
Yeah, EPO has some pretty bad effects, I think mainly thickening the blood, which has caused some deaths in sleep. Was it the Pantani book, which said the team would schedule to get up in the middle of the night to do some time on the turbo, to make sure the blood was pumping round the body, as well as having alarms triggered by low heart rates which would require another turbo session.
Err I hope you're trolling, if not maybe have a think about many of the young fit athletes that died in their sleep.
Very lazy post Fuzzy! If you can point me in the direction of deaths caused by EPO, that would be great. And when I say caused, I'll need to see proof that EPO actually caused it. But you won't find that, you'll find a load of articles about 7 cyclists dying in a 1-year period. But even that won't do, because there was no proof that those cyclists took EPO.
The Froome thing is interesting. For me the fact that Vaughters tried very hard to sign him for Garmin is at least one indicator that he could be clean.
That's the legacy that dopers have left behind though - we, perfectly reasonably given history, find it impossible to confidently believe that all the top performeers are clean. That's not to say that they're not but who'd put their house on it?
Very lazy post Fuzzy! If you can point me in the direction of deaths caused by EPO, that would be great. And when I say caused, I'll need to see proof that EPO actually caused it. But you won't find that, you'll find a load of articles about 7 cyclists dying in a 1-year period. But even that won't do, because there was no proof that those cyclists took EPO.
Well it seems the teams believed there was a link, and took steps to avoid the consequences.
When the drugs in sport ban came in, it was very much about protecting the athletes health. It does seem to muddy the waters somewhat drawing an arbitrary line as to what is allowed and what is considered cheating.
Shibboleth - lack of 'proof' doesn't prove something's incorrect though. I don't need to bang my head repeatedly against a wall to prove it's going to hurt even though I've never done it before myself.
You're right of course, it hasn't been proved but we all know it happened as do the people involved at the time. You can of course choose to ignore because your own requirements of proof aren't met.
I personally think 4 years bans with lifetime ban for second time.
The problem with bans is that it does little to discourage people.
If you could 100% guarantee that dopers would be caught, no one would dope. The tests are the critical factor.
Then comes the culture. Bans will never really work while the teams escape censure. Historically, the teams often led people to dope (countless stories about neo-pros getting explained what 'being professional' meant) and then cut them loose if caught.
The culture is the real issue and that's where the UCI were so ineffective, turning a blind eye to it. If the culture has genuinely changed, along with better testing (though cynically, the former may follow the latter...) then that's what leads to less doping though there will always be exceptions.
The worst part is... it's killing the enjoyment of watching the events to find out 6 weeks later that the bloke you were sitting there thinking "Wow... that's impressive fella..." was only impressive because of EPO...
In the past, you thought someone was clean and found out years later they weren't.
As others have said, rather than the Italian labs testing, this lot of tests were done by a lab in Cologne at the forefront of new EPO tests which probably explains why both Vini riders got caught.
As for Santambrogio, I hope it was just being led astray by Di Luca rather than it being a Vini-Fantini team issue. Either it sucks but hey he got caught at least.
David Millar said the whole peloton knew that Vini had dopers onboard. Question is if any of the peloton dare come forward and name other names. Interested to see if the Vini team manager can hide behind having this rider forced on him by a sponsor like he did with Di Luca. Given this is their biggest show of the year, I have a feeling Vini have been prepared to overlook things a bit to get results but I can't imagine they'd organise it themselves given how strict the Italians are with this sort of thing.
You probably wouldn't find any proven link between EPO use and mortality in a tiny number of elite athletes, especially as its use and dosage aren't exactly publicly acknowledged, let alone thoroughly studied.
However, the side-effect profile and mortality associated with clinical use of EPO is well documented, and even though this involves an older, sicker group of patients, there is no reason to believe that younger, fitter people would be entirely immune to these effects, especially as we don't know anything about the dosage to which they were subjected.
It's a very good drug for achieving the aims of the doping riders, but to suggest there isn't a downside must be wrong.
Is there any clinical proof that EPO improves athletic performance?
Bollcks. Not at you ) but to that quote that gets trotted out, it came from a doper in the first place. You can, 99% of riders just can't ride it as fast, some winners couldn't win anymore and the teams may not be so together or reliable, and maybe the big-bucks sponsors couldn't accept that.'you don't ride the Tour on mineral water alone',
There's plenty of pro roadies and other endurance riders who manage to do big days for weeks on end, clean, sometimes without teams or any other kind of support. Pro road racing is just a dysfunctional mess, that's all. It's a shame. Drugs have been there since the start but it seems to be a cultural thing. There will be cheats in all kinds of racing, human nature says that some people will compromise their integrity for money, fame, ego etc. There's a lot of racers that did/do great things on the bike while doped, they always were/will be great riders, but the doping undermines everything they ever worked for imo.
Proper legends and often unsung heroes of the peleton. If you ever wore a grand tour jersey and raced clean, you're a better man than most of the so called greats of road racing.So how do you see the guys that choose not to dope?
Good point. You'll never have proof, for obvious reasons. Plenty of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence over the last 15 years or so suggests there's a fair chance that it can improve performance even at elite level. I'd imagine the dosage necessary to make gains would be the key thing.
Imagine if it was just one hell of a placebo...
Proper legends and often unsung heroes of the peleton.
Thank you!
from what I've read, and the comments coming from team managers about the two Vini Fantini riders, there is a change of attitude in cycling towards those who dope.
they seem to be being berated for doing it.
what would be nice is if all the riders in the Giro who had suspected and gossiped about the Vini Fantini riders being on something, had been a bit more open and vocal about it. but I guess they would then run the risk of saying something libelous.
[i]Err I hope you're trolling[/i]
This is shibboleth, you have to ask?
jameso - Member
Pro road racing is just a dysfunctional mess, that's all.
Pffftt, other sports have just as much drug use it's just not being tackled (IMO). If not why is cycling so 'special'?
Pffftt, other sports have just as much drug use it's just not being tackled (IMO). If not why is cycling so 'special'?
Elaborate.
cycling made a mistake in trying to catch cheats, try football. do as little as you can get away with and then have no doping problem.
cycling made a mistake in trying to catch cheats, try football. do as little as you can get away with and then have no doping problem.
And tennis
And motor racing
Allegedly
Sure, doesn't change the fact cycle racing at that level is a mess though. It's good that they're trying clean the mess up and maybe it's less of a mess than it was. But there's obviously still doping and corruption to be cleaned up.Pffftt, other sports have just as much drug use it's just not being tackled (IMO). If not why is cycling so 'special'?
weeksy - Member"Pffftt, other sports have just as much drug use it's just not being tackled (IMO). If not why is cycling so 'special'?"
Elaborate.
Really? Pretty simple. I think other sports have comparable drug use but the culture is complete coverup.
If that's not the case then why does cycling have this problem?
about the drugs in sport thing in general.
Ask yourself a few questions,
Why do professional sports exist?
If you think, they exist to entertain and to advertise, they are not about competition as such. Competition is only a means to an end.
Is doping a problem?
If the reason for pro sport is to entertain and no one cares then no. If the audience start to have a problem with doping then the sport has a problem and needs to clean up.
Look at cycling, the audience in SOME countries have an issue, i suspect that in some countries the entertainment value is all that matters.
Look at football, i may be convinced that doping is riff, but i suspect the average footy fan doesn't actually care. They watch it as entertainment. Look at WWC style wrestling, everyone believes it is fake but it is not really about sport but about entertainment.
Really? Pretty simple. I think other sports have comparable drug use but the culture is complete coverup.If that's not the case then why does cycling have this problem?
Which sports and what makes you think that's the case ?
they exist to entertain and to advertise, they are not about competition as such. Competition is only a means to an end.
I like to think of it the other way round. advertising and entertainment are enablers of sport and competition.
I like to think of it the other way round. advertising and entertainment are enablers of sport and competition.
why is the yellow jersey yellow? why is the pink jersey pink, read the history of cycling and come back to me.
Tennis and Football for one, as Fuentes has said that made up the other 2/3s of his clients.
Wrestling (WWF/E/C) can't call itself a sport anymore, it's sports entertainment now.
mrmo - Member"I like to think of it the other way round. advertising and entertainment are enablers of sport and competition."
why is the yellow jersey yellow? why is the pink jersey pink, read the history of cycling and come back to me.
Doesn't that prove his point rather than yours though?
Well if nobody was getting caught the call of fix would be just as loud, we need the right number caught at a reasonably regular interval so that we can be happy that cheats are caught and the rest are clean. It would also help if those that were caught were mid pack nobodies from countries we can't spell so we can feel better about that and our heroes.
It's like speed cameras and electric fences you only find out if it's working by getting caught/shocked.
I also have to go along with the WADA ban principles. You need to get people to admit & come forward. Life bans mean nobody will talk or confess.
BTW I'm not saying that there isn't still a problem in cycling, there is and I think its being addressed and attitudes are changing. It's actually being talked about openly for one.
But singling cycling out as the sport with 'the drug problem' is naive in the extreme.
FWIW, back to the OP, let's just say for a moment that cycling is now generally clean.
Isn't the situation that happened at the Giro (where two riders on the same team got caught by an effective doping test and where their performances were deemed suspicious by many in the know beforehand) exactly what we'd expect and hope to see?
Of course that definitely doesn't prove that cycling is generally clean but at least the parameters are more in line with what we'd expect if it is than they were before.
Elaborate.
If you use Twitter, take a look at soe of the tweets by @Giggs_Boson
He's tweeted quite a lot about doping in other sports, mainly tennis and football.
There was also a TV programme a couple of years ago about doping in football.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/the-truth-about-drugs-in- football-related-links
But singling cycling out as the sport with 'the drug problem' is naive in the extreme.
No-one is doing that, but we're on a cycling forum talking about a EPO'd cyclist caught recently, so obviously the cycling side of things is going to be at the top of the discussion here.
However, it IS a problem and people are being caught more than in other sports.
p.s Do you know how often some footballers are tested ?
the tour was created to advertise a newspaper. it happened that the desgranges was a cyclist and it suited his aims. think about the route, the stages. If you want an audience go to the 6 day. A tour round a country where no one could actually watch the whole. An event that needed a newspaper to get people involved. Yes there was an interest, it would never have been created if there wasn't but that so few were in the first few.
It's funny isn't it, they catch and expose a cheat and that seems to be taken by many as evidence that the Sport as a whole is "Dirty".
Surely a sport where the governing body went out of their way to balls up testing or "lose" the results of certain top level athletes for several years in order to "Maintain the spectacle" where officials could be lent on to cover this sort of thing up would be dirty... Oh... 😳
TBH if test failures weren't being publicized now after the whole LaLa thing, then I think that would be much more concerning... The thing is now competitors know just how critical it is that the UCI apply and are seen to be applying the rules swiftly, without prejudice and that any penalties are significant, they've not exactly covered themselves in glory of late...
Let's have a full years amnesty.
For all sports.
Let everyone come forward, tell us the truth, then we can move on.
No bans, no seizing of assets, just a period of reflection.
THEN, blood passports for all, compulsory testing at all events and lifetime bans for anyone who fails.
If the sponsors go, let them.
A return to amateur status would be a good thing.
The incremental artificially enhanced 'improvements' in athletic performance have ruined a lot of sports:
Tennis used to be a much better spectator sport before athletic ability became the be all and end all. Tactical nous and guts produced the best tennis matches ever.
Technical improvements need to be regulated also - golf is becoming a farce as the majority of existing courses don't suit todays equiptment.
F1 too - the cars just don't suit the tracks.
But that's another thread entirely. 😀
Let's have a full years amnesty.
For all sports.
Major problem. Sporting fraud is in itself illegal in several countries and as Lance is finding out even if not in itself, it can lead to other issues of civil liability (or even perjury).
Not to mention that criminality often goes hand in hand with doping - eg drug dealing, etc.
I think that a Truth and Rec event would be a great idea but only if it exposes the truth, methods and people behind the doping, not just the doping itself.
weeksy - Member
"But singling cycling out as the sport with 'the drug problem' is naive in the extreme"
No-one is doing that
Sorry, I read the 'cycling is a dysfunctional mess' (paraphrased comment by someone on the other page) as being in relation to drug use, hence my comment that it's no more 'dysfunctional' than other sports.
Surely though all teams are 'doping' to an extent. However the difference in most is that they know the limits and stick to these so that they never fail a drug test. For those that say that is crap, open your eyes!!
It's like anything though, you will try and get an advantage by exploiting the rules. It's done in F1, its done in football, its done in every day life (tax a fine example!)
Don't agree with doping in the slightest and hope none of the big guys are but they aint just taking 'mineral water'!!
With Cookson running against McQuaid (which I assume also means Hein as well) we'll soon find out if there's been any dodginess in British Cycling/Sky.
Are these guys villains? Yes, they are cheats pure and simple.
Are we (supporters of cycling) guilty by association? Possibly? In the same way as the baying mob at the Coliseum.
I am pretty cyncical about pro sport in general and believe that drug abuse is widespread plus the distinction between a PED and medicines to allow you to computer when you couldn't otherwise compete is blurred in practice and in morality.
Given a Libertaritan bias, I would be perfectly happy to let them all get on with it and live with consequences of their own actions. That would be a level playing field albeit one riddled with weeds and cow pats. But as a parent, who has seen how low drug abuse has extended down from pro sport into junior country stuff, I feel the need to protect the innocent and the vulnerable. At the moment, we seem to achieve neither.
Why do professional sports exist?If you think, they exist to entertain and to advertise, they are not about competition as such. Competition is only a means to an end.
Is doping a problem?
If the reason for pro sport is to entertain and no one cares then no. If the audience start to have a problem with doping then the sport has a problem and needs to clean up.
I've always considered professional sport to be another branch of the entertainment business, morally equivalent to the X Factor or Shakespeare. And I couldn't care less if the Bard was off his head on laudanum while writing Hamlet, either - as long as it's entertaining, that'll do.
What is interesting to me, however, is the extent of drug taking in amateur sport - in the same way that pop stars influence their fans, does cycling with its high-profile drug cases have a noticeable influence on club riders? Athletics?
Cookson has little chance due to the questions by some National cycling bodies, they think BC has cheated to win all the medals. Also the success has built a level jealousy that will make some vote for others. There are some alternatives to McQuaid and they don't look good.
It's a bold move to go for the job but if Cookson loses and McQuaid stays or a supporter of his gets in then it will have a knock on effect for BC and the athletes.
So how do you see the guys that choose not to dope?
Quite often 2nd and poorer. Which is why there is so much doping in a sport that in Europe has often drawn riders from poorer backgrounds
[quote=MS ]Surely though all teams are 'doping' to an extent. However the difference in most is that they know the limits and stick to these so that they never fail a drug test. For those that say that is crap, open your eyes!!
This is the problem. Either the ENTIRE peloton has been doing undetectable stuff that the recent whistleblowers know nothing about and therefore couldn't grass them up or actually the majority are clean. I'm going for the latter.
Atlaz, wasn't TH's suggesting a hierarchy of drug abuse within the peloton rather than the either/or you seem to be suggesting? My read was that it was almost seen as a badge of honour to be selected for the super-juice camp rather than the watered-down or even water-only versions.
Is there any clinical proof that EPO improves athletic performance?
Yes there is, in double blind randomized trials. [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912888 ]Here's one[/url], for example.
VO2max increased from 63.6 +/- 4.5 mL x kg(-1) x min(-1) before to 68.1 +/- 5.4 mL x kg(-1) x min(-1) 2 d post rhEPO administration (7% increase, P = 0.001) in the EPO group. Hematocrit, sTfR, sTfR-ferritin(-1), and VO2max did not change in the placebo group.
I share Shib's sentiments about the choices taken by professionals. There are rules for the pro-peleton that we aren't privy to.
Dammit, that was a rhetorical question 🙂
What is interesting to me, however, is the extent of drug taking in amateur sport - in the same way that pop stars influence their fans, does cycling with its high-profile drug cases have a noticeable influence on club riders? Athletics?
I'd be very supprised if domestic raceing was 'clean'. My housemate used to shoot up with all sorts of crap bought off the internet, and that was just to improve his bench press and impress the laydeezzzzz. Throw in come actual competition and prize money, minor sponsorship/shop team spaces etc and I'm sure some cyclists will be doing exacly the same.
There was a chap last year got busted for EPO in New York, wanna say Cat 3, but just for effect (pretty sure it was Cat 2 though)
That must be why my points tally and positions are so low. All those E1234's are on low dose EPO in my masters series.
Actually, it's more likely to be ibuprofen, i'll see if that is performance enhancing 😆
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/ ]EPO at Gran Fondo NY[/url]
[url= http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/crossing-line-when-freds-go-bad.html ]Bike Snob's take[/url]
I think for the first time in the history of the sport there are clean teams and clean athletes competing equally at the very top of the sport
i think it actually takes testing more seriously than other sports - How are there no failed tests in football or in Tennis given the rumours ?
i think some folk will think that they all must still be cheating no matter what happens
It is funny the 100 metres had final full of cheats [ iirc two have never failed a test] yet no one taints Ussain Bolt or the current crop the same way they do cyclist.
It is probably unlikely any sport will ever rid itself of cheats
Surely though all teams are 'doping' to an extent. However the difference in most is that they know the limits and stick to these so that they never fail a drug test. For those that say that is crap, open your eyes!!
This.
Having read The Secret Race I find it very hard to believe they're not all still at it, be it EPO, blood transfusions, steriod patches or whatever. The testers have something of an uphill battle on their hands - if they have a new test i'm sure it'll be a matter of months before a workaround again and once again the peleton is 'clean' as all the bad eggs have been found. Just like last time.
I take EPO regularly...
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It's hospital prescribed though and far from turning me into some athletic god, it just stops me from colapsing into a crumpled heap after walking up the stairs. I do have end stage kidney disease though (Dialysis three times a week - sucks nuts)
Video - Arm being canulated for dialysis.