[Closed] so that means downill bikes will become obsolete....overheard in the LBS.

That was pretty much what the lad at an lbs close to me said the other day. He has competed d/h for a few years now and will continue to, although enduro has got him now and he's begun to do more trail stuff too, apparently.
His boss laughed and told him that his next bike would be an XC racer.

That will be the same bike shop that when I went looking for a potential new frame or 29er when asked what bikes I already had was told "well you don't need another" ! Guess who lost out on a sale!

Pffft, I can ride pretty much any UK DH on my road bike. On 23s.*

*As one member of this parish might say....! 😉

I can ride any UK downhill I've done pretty much just as fast on a trailbike as on a DH bike. It's because I'm shit and can't use the DH bike's potential. Or the trailbike's potential for that matter.

Unless your actually racing DH at the sharp end, then a DH bike is largely pointless when 'enduro' bikes are so good and so much more versatile.

Although I'm not agreeing with the statement 100% by any stretch you do need to bear in mind that at the 2014 Downhill World Champs Jared Graves opted to ride his Yeti SB66 Carbon trail bike (the same as I rode XC!) and took it all the way to a silver medal.

In [i]some[/i] circumstances the lad [i]could[/i] be correct.

Quick edit - just realised that reads like I rode World Cup XC - something I can assure you I most certainly did not!!!

Not even newnham?

*far far more likely to say "STFU you sanctimonious prick"

it's good advice. 😉

Ha! Jam Bo, yeah I did ride the the WC at Newnham a couple of times (and Fort William actually) but never made it to the big race so I guess it doesn't count 😉

I wasn't inclined to entirely believe what I was told.
But I wouldn't know either, because I'm certain I don't know what the limits of my trail bike are. Because I'm an old scarcedy cat.

Don't really see a problem with the salespersons comment really, maybe not the most eloquent.

Perfectly valid statement, no?

UK, DH, doubt you're actually going to be any quicker on a DH bike or held back by a bike like the nomad, well certainly not at regional level maybe even not at national elite, marginal gains and all that. IE bottom 95% will be fully dependant on skill set, maybe the top 5% will actually make use of those MARGINAL gains.

At the end of the day, how do you quantify how capable a bike is without coming across as a bit of a joke?

"STFU you sanctimonious prick"

Is that really the best you can come up with? I've been insulted by people with doctorates, and that really doesn't cut the mustard.

I think you'll find a few years spent researching and writing a dull study into something only slightly different than many many others have before you is in no way indicative of ones aptitude to hand out a decent insult.

it's not really the words you need to be wary of 😉

" let's put it this way, I can ride down any [b][i]UK downhill[/i][/b] track quicker on that than I can on a downhill bike"

Emphasis on the UK and I'm inclined to agree with him. 90% of UK tracks anyway. Probably wouldn't shout about it in a bike shop though.

Well, I can ride 99% of UK DH trails quicker on my DH bike and will have a go at gaps I wouldn't even consider on my Santa Cruz trail bike.

Awesome shop assistant said...[i]I can ride down any UK downhill track quicker on that than I can on a downhill bike[/i]. I say, how my DH tracks in Northern Ireland has he ridden?

Every DH trail on the mainland must be pretty tame.

What scruff said goes for me too.
Adding to that I know that I most likely won't destroy my dh bike at speed. Where as I doubt my bandit or similar would be as happy after a trip down the double black somewhere like antur

I'm intrigued as to how many folks agreeing with the sentiments of the original sales guy actually own a dh bike?
Modern trail bikes are amazingly capable but as fast as a dh bike on dh tracks they are not - if they were at some of the 10-15dh races I do each year some (or any even) of the fast guys would be on trail bikes.

Bandit is 130mm . Nomad is 170mm. Big difference.

I owned and ridden a lot of DH bikes. The fast guys would kick your ass on whatever they rode but like I said, until your at the sharp end a DH bike isn't worth it.

I know I'm faster on my dh bike at Dunkeld, Fort Bill, Ae, most of Inners DH, Pitmedden, Falkland, Lennox, Glencoe,... Loads more.

That's all I can input input here. These stories of Enduro bikes being as fast as dh bikes on dh tracks are churned out by the same machine that told us we need 27.5.

Haha. The fast guys could ride a shopper downhill faster than probably all of us on here on sh bikes.
I happen to like having a stack load of travel and a bike that isn't going to break on me.
I know I feel happier on my dh bike than on any of the others. 130mm, 160mm. Whatever

If its who I think it is, he is no slouch on a bike and I'm fairly sure he's replaced his dh bike with an enduro bike.

With forks, shocks and suspension design being more capable and efficient over the last couple of years, enduro bikes on some tracks will be faster and as others have said unless your up at the sharp end, its the rider.

So, the best riders would be fast on any bike, also you need to be one of the best riders to make a dh bike worthwhile. Average riders should buy a (new) nomad for everything. Does that sound about right?

Only if it has new sized wheels. Otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be making any money

Salesman was clearly trying to 'big up' the Nomad and chase the sale...customer on hearing that his potential new purchase is quicker than a DH bike hands over cash...oldest trick in the book.

Back in the 80s salesmen at my local Peugeot (car) dealership did a roaring trade in selling 205 GTi's on the basis that 'in the real world its as quick from A to B as a 911'....for the average numpty this is probably true but if you can actually drive and use a 911 to its fullest potential you will wipe the floor with a hot hatch....

....same with the DH bike and Nomad being discussed, the average rider (myself included) is probably no quicker on a DH sled than on my trail bike but if you can actually ride then you'll appreciate the angles, stiffness and travel of a proper 'tool for the job' DH bike and blitz you previous best times downhill that you set on a trail/AM/enduro bike.

Jared Graves took Bronze medal at the Pietermaritzburg track on his Yeti Enduro bike....a good showing but very very track specific, Pietermaritzburg is considered by most riders to be a 'motorway' of a DH track....put it this way, if the World Champs that year had been anywhere else on the WC calendar Mr Graves would've been reaching for his dedicated DH bike!

Only if it has new sized wheels. Otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be making any money

Were 26" wheels all produced at zero margin to manufacturers?

Jared Graves took Bronze medal at the Pietermaritzburg track on his Yeti Enduro bike....a good showing but very very track specific, Pietermaritzburg is considered by most riders to be a 'motorway' of a DH track....put it this way, if the World Champs that year had been anywhere else on the WC calendar Mr Graves would've been reaching for his dedicated DH bike!

Whilst I agree that Pitermartizburg is one of the tamer WC courses you're wrong regarding what he'd reach for else where.
His reasoning wasn't track specific at all. He'd spent the whole season racing enduro on his SB so he knew he was fast on it. He knew he'd not put in enough time on his DH bike to be as comfortable and hence opted for his very very capable trail bike as he knew he'd be quicker.

richie must know something from within the Graves camp that the rest of us don't.

Well he is the uk yeti importer.

richie must know something from within the Graves camp that the rest of us don't.

In the OP's case the shop guy was trying to make the sale.

The Graves thing was in an interview at the time.

In the OP's case the shop guy was trying to make the sale.

Cynical bastard, trying to sell a bike to a customer 🙂

Anyway, I've probably said something similar and in my case it happened to be true. My current 160mm trail bike is as near as makes no difference to the old dh bikes it replaced. Similar ha, similar bb height, wheel base, and probably better damped. Also as someone else said, for the ordinary 5-8 something like a Nomad is so capable it might as well be a World Cup DH bike as they'll never get close to exploiting either.

What's your current trail bike Jim?
and do you mean similar sagged or static?

mtbel

What's your current trail bike Jim?
and do you mean similar sagged or static?

Current trail bike is a Ghost Cagua. Static HA is 65.5, static bb very low due to shorter shock. Never measured it sagged as that would require someone else to be complicit in my sadness. And just to clarify, I'm saying it's faster for me than the old DH bikes I owned, which it rendered redundant - not that it's faster than a modern DH bike.

Back in the day I can remember when a group of riders did the cheddar challenge DH on shopping bikes...they weren't last by a long way

I raced a few regional DH's hardtail (when the cat still existed) wasn't last but it was uncomfortable

thanks Jim.
Haven't really looked at Ghost bikes before.
shorter shock (E2E) with the same stroke, yeah?
what shock are you running?

I can ride any downhill course on my son's balance bike faster than on a downhill bike..
You lot wanna wake up and stop listening to marketing spiel

Salesman in, saying something that might help him make a sale shocker...

On any tricky / rooty / rutted Alps trail I can ride down faster on a DH bike than an enduro/all-mountain 160 bike. I haven't encountered such trails in the UK but I would have to believe the average rider here do get down the Fort William track quicker on a DH bike and an enduro.

Speed isn't all of it. How about drops and jumps? Yes again Jared graves could clear the Grand Canyon on a shopping trolley. However, our local trail has biggest drop about 6ft high and 25 feet to clear or a table top at 30feet (yes its measured). I'm happy going at full speed at these on my DH bike. I've got stuff very wrong and whilst I had to change my TL Jim Jams I didn't crash and my bike was fine. Theres no way Id get away with it on my trail bike and even if I did I'm pretty sure something would break.

I cant afford £8k on a Carbon CC Nomad with ENVE upgrade so I'll stick to my two appropriate bikes for now.

Personally I can walk most dh tracks faster than I can ride them but for my pennies worth:

If the guy is any good, knows what he's capable of and can use the bike to a good extent he's probably just as quick or quicker on the nomad.

If he's superb he's likely to eek out the few seconds from more appropriate kit, he would, as previously said though, be faster on a shopper than most of us on anything and faster on the bike he rides a the time over the most singing and dancing dh bike he's never ridden before.

Where to some extent I disagree with most of the above is that for the majority of riders a dh bike will be quicker because frankly we're rubbish and rely on the bike to do a lot of the work, we aren't confident that we have the skills to not break the bike so slow down. The fake sense of security that comes from thinking your kit will let you get away with things counts for an awful lot to most riders.

The fake sense of security that comes from thinking your kit will let you get away with things counts for an awful lot to most riders.

It's not just a fake sense of security though is it... a DH or longer travel bike WILL let you get away with more.. so it's 100% not fake. People can ride more technical trails on more suited machines.. I would find that very hard to argue against

+1 Dangeourbrain

I've often thought of getting a DH/Park bike but then realized I'm a middle aged man who enjoys riding trails to making big jumps and everything local to me requires both pedaling up and down.
I can do DH tracks, I just do them slower on my AM/Enduro/Trail bike, however, I do think that the design of modern 160mm travel bikes is pushing the envelope to what the average rider could safely use them for, something you would ordinarily have automatically gone triple crown for before.

Meh

DH bikes are fun when there is a boatload of gravity, it's rough and you don't need to pop and pedal.

Trail bikes better on flatter 'DH' trails, fun trails and flicky stuff.

Maybe it's not that the DH bikes are getting outdated, we are just lacking the trails required to make them worthwhile.

My Nukeproof Mega AM is about as beefy as it gets for a trail bike. On my DH bike I can ride the Fort William WC track top to bottom non-stop in 8 minutes-ish. On the Mega there's no way I can do a non-stop run. On stuff like Inners there's not much between them on any given run, but the big difference is that over the course of a full day's riding, I feel a lot less beat up on the DH bike than I do on the trail bike.

My Spec Enduro is faster than my dh rig ever was. But if it is proper DH terrain I'd expect a modern DH bike to be faster

Youre talking about Jared Graves 3rd at Pietermaritzburg in 2013. Not the most steepest track. I doubt he would have faired so well at the following years track at Hajfell. Horses for Courses.

I can ride any UK downhill I've done pretty much just as fast on a trailbike as on a DH bike

I think I could do a downhill course quicker on a trailbike than a DH one - less weight to carry as I gently clamber down it!

I've only ridden a proper DH bike for 10 minutes in my life (triple clamps, tiny stem, 220mm travel IIRC) but I would have been quicker on my hard tail.

The amount of movement it took to weight the front wheel for cornering was surprising (sliding-into-a-bush-surprising). I felt like I was riding a bouncy castle. With flippy-floppy steering and a saddle far too low for any kind of pedaling.

For me, a Nomad would be much quicker.

Correct me if I'm wrong but DH bikes don't seem to be getting longer travel whereas a bike that's still fun and rideable for long days can now have more efficient suspension and be a lighter weight. Our XC full sussers are probably better DH bikes than the DH bikes of 15 years ago. Surely not too long before the gap between DH and Enduro / AM bikes is barely there.

To be fair, Steve Jones of Dirt used to race the Dragons on an SX Trail & win Masters.

The Nomad is longer, lower & as slack as DH bikes of only 4-5 years ago, the only thing it loses out on is a bit of travel.

I doubt on the regional DH stuff I race I would be any faster on a DH bike over my current bike. Maybe if I was racing Bala/Llangollen it would be a different story, but i'm not.

Youre talking about Jared Graves 3rd at Pietermaritzburg in 2013. Not the most steepest track. I doubt he would have faired so well at the following years track at Hajfell. Horses for Courses.

Granted but that's not what we're talking about.
At Hajfell he almost certainly wouldn't have had the same result but we're not talking about racing against other people, we're talking about your own time on two different bikes on the same track.

I was having a read through this and the only thing that really struck me about it was stopping power. It's a small thing but I think it's pretty important. When you're talking about whether or not 2 inches more squish will equate to a similar diameter increase in testicles/ovaries, the ability to stop before a tree/cliff can afford you extra comfort.
I mean, the basic Nomad vs the basic V10... aside from 2 inches and a more laid back seat, it's the rotor size. Can a 180 rotor slow you down enough for a corner? Sure... but you can brake later with a 203.

On the topic of the sales pitch, if the guy/girl is getting into the sport, sell them a Nomad. If they don't take to DH, they still have a bike that'll do Enduro and XC. I think you're right saying it's about the sale more than anything else... but hey, not selling a one-trick pony to someone who may or may not know what they actually want... that's sensible to me. LBS doesn't screw someone over, they get repeat business.

It will take 10 mins to have it with a 203mm front rotor if you need it. Hardly a game changer. But you are right on the other thing, it's got a much better chance of getting regular use than a DH bike.

Surely the durability of the frame and the components comes into play too? I could buy a Nomad and ride it all season in and out of the bike park but I'd much prefer a bigger, stouter bike with tougher kit on it if I'm hitting DH trails all day long.

Exactly, it's about using the right tool for the job.

You could bash a nail in with the heel of your shoe but it'll be hard work and wreck the shoe, better to use a hammer then.

Same with Enduro and DH bikes, you can ride a DH track on a 140-170mm AM/Enduro bike but at the ultimate peaks of their respective abilities the DH bike will be faster....provided you can ride one of course....for most average riders their own familiar bike will be the one they're quickest on in a quick back to back test....but if you persevere with the correct bike for the terrain you're riding (and acquire the necessary skill set) you'll end up faster on the discipline specific bike.

Try giving one of the top WC-XC riders a 160mm full susser to compete the race with, sure the bike 'can' be pedalled around an XC course but at that level against guys on XC specific bikes the long travel full bouncer will be a hindrance.
Ideally we'd all have a garage full of purpose specific bikes for all the different kinds of riding out there, there is no single one-bike-to-rule-them-all.

Has anyone mentioned tyres yet?

I've had reinforced Enduro type tyres on my trail bike and its like dragging an anchor about. The DH bike always has dual plys, anything less would be ripped to bits.

Whatnobeer & Deviant
All of that might be true but the salesman (or anyone else) never claimed a trail bike would be as durable.

Why not do a test to see if enduro bikes are as fast as downhill bikes and can climb as well as xc bikes...[url= http://enduro-mtb.com/en/en-preview-issue-015-are-enduro-bikes-really-as-versatile-as-we-think/ ]link[/url]

Even though I do think an enduro magazine might favour one particular bike, we'll just have to see.

gavjackson1984

Why not do a test to see if enduro bikes are as fast as downhill bikes and can climb as well as xc bikes...link

Well in fairness at no point did the op mention an enduro bike climbing as well as an XC bike. Also I think Jared Graves result at PMB kind of answers this question as accurately as it can be. Interesting that Brendan Fairclough took his 170mm Scott enduro bike there the following year and said the track was too rough for it.

I think it's pretty obvious that the steeper/rougher/faster a track is the more a DH bike will come into it's own. Especially if that rough steep track is long and takes a physical toll.

Conversely the pedalier, flatter or smoother the track is the more it'll play to the strengths of an "enduro" bike. Anyone who follows pro racers outside of the WC circuit will see that it's not uncommon for racers to choose Enduro/Trail bikes to race certain local or national races. Mitch Ropelato on his Stumpjumper springs to mind.

Well in fairness at no point did the op mention an enduro bike climbing as well as an XC bike.

I think the link pretty much covers all bases

scruff - Member

Has anyone mentioned tyres yet?

I've had reinforced Enduro type tyres on my trail bike and its like dragging an anchor about. The DH bike always has dual plys, anything less would be ripped to bits.

Yeah but... If you're going to be using an enduro bike for uplifts you can just fit dualplies.

Does a 203mm rotor slow down a 40lb dh bike quicker than a 180mm does a 28lb enduro bike?

richiethesilverfish - Member
Although I'm not agreeing with the statement 100% by any stretch you do need to bear in mind that at the 2014 Downhill World Champs Jared Graves opted to ride his Yeti SB66 Carbon trail bike (the same as I rode XC!) and took it all the way to a silver medal.

Just to be 'that guy', it was the 2013 world champs, which was Pietermaritzburg in South Africa, it's the most pedally track on the WC circuit, most of the racers used 29er AM bikes, Gwin and Brayton, for example, were on S works enduros or whatever they're called. 2014 champs was at Hafjell of which everyone was on DH bikes

tymbian

this s a very good point

alpineharry

Just to be 'that guy', it was the 2013 world champs, which was Pietermaritzburg in South Africa, it's the most pedally track on the WC circuit, most of the racers used 29er AM bikes, Gwin and Brayton, for example, were on S works enduros or whatever they're called. 2014 champs was at Hafjell of which everyone was on DH bikes

Go and check your facts there harry.

tymbian - Member
Does a 203mm rotor slow down a 40lb dh bike quicker than a 180mm does a 28lb enduro bike?

Just to be 'that guy', it was the 2013 world champs, which was Pietermaritzburg in South Africa, it's the most pedally track on the WC circuit, most of the racers used 29er AM bikes,

I think a lot of people would be surprised. I once took my DH bike out in the peaks to try and smash out some KOMs. At first I felt really guilty for 'cheating' on Strava until I got home and realised that my times were significantly slower than on my trail bike. Now this is peaks/ blacka moor stuff and its not DH tracks, but I was surprised at how much slower I was - around 20%. I guess I can pedal and hop my trail bike around the trail, and skip from line-to-line far easier which obviously confers advantage on all but the gnarliest tracks. And this is comparing a DH bike to a 130mm bike, not the current range of extremely capable 160-170mm bikes that would presumably be faster still.

I'm sure that on the steepest, dirtiest, rootiest track I'd be quicker on my DH bike. I'm also sure that if I was riding uplifts, I'd prefer something I can use and abuse. And for the pros looking for the last few 10ths of a second on a WC track there's no question a DH bike is going to be faster.

So I don't think the DH bike is dead, but there are a lot of people (like me) who have a DH bike as a second bike but will soon be questioning whether that's a good use of their garage space / [i]n[/i] quota.

I think there's also a risk that we go 'full circle'. 8 ish years ago, people were pedalling 35lbs mini-DH bikes around on XC loops. Mostly, people have decided that's quite an excessive weight penalty. Now, you can get that same/ performance from a bike that weighs 27lbs and pedals fine. But also people are realising that more isn't always better - More travel makes stuff too easy sometimes. I predict a backlash and people riding 120mm bikes in 3-4 years time instead of 160mm.

Does a 203mm rotor slow down a 40lb dh bike quicker than a 180mm does a 28lb enduro bike?

So, uh, yes.

Does a 203mm rotor slow down a 40lb dh bike quicker than a 180mm does a 28lb enduro bike?

Yes, front tyre will generally grip alot more on a DH bike.

It really doesn't matter about brake rotor size though does it. Sticking a 203mm rotor on your bike isn't exactly a challenge, I've had one on all but one of my bikes in the last 10 years.

just to relight this-

Jared Graves at the weekend on the Oceania championship DH course, on a proper bike.

[img] [/img]

Actually it isn't a proper bike...

Actually it isn't a proper bike...

SB6C with dual crowns and coil shock!

UK, DH, doubt you're actually going to be any quicker on a DH bike or held back by a bike like the nomad, well certainly not at regional level maybe even not at national elite, marginal gains and all that. IE bottom 95% will be fully dependant on skill set, maybe the top 5% will actually make use of those MARGINAL gains.

At the end of the day, how do you quantify how capable a bike is without coming across as a bit of a joke?

It's not just about performance, it's about confidence. Downhill bikes instill more confidence to go fast than even the current crop of Enduro bikes do.

I'd still take a lightish downhill bike over an enduro bike for UK DH any day.

peed isn't all of it. How about drops and jumps? Yes again Jared graves could clear the Grand Canyon on a shopping trolley. However, our local trail has biggest drop about 6ft high and 25 feet to clear or a table top at 30feet (yes its measured). I'm happy going at full speed at these on my DH bike. I've got stuff very wrong and whilst I had to change my TL Jim Jams I didn't crash and my bike was fine. Theres no way Id get away with it on my trail bike and even if I did I'm pretty sure something would break.

People seem to be cracking a lot of the carbon enduro bikes as well, I'm pretty sure people have started riding them like DH bikes as the head angles have started hitting 65 degrees and wheelbases have started reaching 1200mm. Unfortunately the frames are usually 2 pounds lighter than their equivalent DH bikes without shocks - hence something is going to break.